Nonsuch across oceans?

[Patrick Cobham]

I have previously sailed a Freedom 28 cat ketch across the Atlantic and a Freedom 32 sloop across  the Pacific.  I am now looking for a newer cat-rigged boat for more ocean sailing.  Has anybody sailed a Nonsuch around the world, or at least across an ocean?  If so what size was it?

The Freedom 28 hove to easily, but not the Freedom 32.  Can a Nonsuch be hove to in bad weather?

How many possible reefing positions are there on a Nonsuch?

Has anybody ever used a storm sail of any kind on a Nonsuch?  

Any other advice for taking a Nonsuch offshore, or any recommendations for other cat-rigged boats?

Thanks in advance for any contributions

[1980240D]

As a start, I would read Dangerous Waters by David Philpott. 

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Waters-David-Philpott/dp/0595137822

Quite a story!  Make sure you have multiple halyards!

[Richard Darrow]

Hi Patrick,

 

The Nonsuch is a great boat, but I think most owners might tell you that at best it’s a coastal cruiser. I’ll defer your question to others in the INA Discussion Group who have sailed longer and farther than I have. Good luck in your search.

 

Regards,

Dick (& Shirley) Darrow

"Cativa", NS30U #496

Sodus Bay, NY USA

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[Mark Powers]

Patrick,

A Nonsuch will not heave to, however it can be made to slowly reach in a manner similar to heaving too. There has been a discussion on this issue on the forum in the last few months.

There have been several Nonsuch boats that have made ocean voyages. I believe but do not know for sure, that an early 30 won its class in the Trans Pac race (1979 - 1982?). In addition to Philpott,  a 30 has crossed the Atlantic. Canadian Cat out of Victoria has sailed out of Victoria to the Caribbean and according to the owner sailed around the world. She  is a 30.

The owner of Canadian Cat said the biggest concern he had was an accidental gybe.  

The Nonsuch is not designed as an offshore boat. It does not have sufficient cockpit drains nor a raised bridge deck. These issues can be resolved.  Bigger issues are that the design carries a large amount of weight in the bow. For heavy weather (offshore storms) the weight should be in the middle of the boat. Weight in the bow causes the boat to hobbyhorse and slow down in the waves. It also  makes the bow slow to rise. The unstayed mast  has too much movement. My brother (Rob) was recently speaking to a surveyor who sailed several Nonsuches from Canada and the U.S. north east to the Caribbean. The surveyor  said the movement in the rig was the biggest problem he encountered. 

Most Nonsuch sails have two reef points, although some have been built with a third reef. I believe a few people have installed trysails as storm sails. I am not sure how they attached the sail track to the mast or if they used the main sail track after removing the main sail.  You don't want to add extra holes in the mast near the deck. 

I have not sailed in any Freedom's. I know a number of variations were made. I believe the 32 sloop had a standard boom  so did not have issues with a big wishbone boom on wire hangers. I talked to one individual who sailed a Freedom 32 sloop from Florida to the Bahamas. He said that in the steep waves in the Gulf stream the mast would bend forward and then snap back with such force he was sure it was going to rip the forestay of off the deck.

I don't know if the 28 Freedom had the wishbone booms but with the ketch rig the foremast would have been smaller and therefore would have less weight in the bow then a Nonsuch where all the weight is in the bow. As a catboat is reefed the centre of effort is moved forward changing the balance of the boat. That does not happen to the same extent with a cat ketch. Also with a ketch you will have a sail on either side of the boat when running downwind which will help reduce roll. The Nonsuch with all of the sail on one side and way forward has a tendency to roll. With a boom as long as on a Nonsuch there is a risk of it digging in. Dead down wind the tip of the boom of a Nonsuch 30 is about 25 feet out to the side of the vessel. 

I have never been offshore in a Nonsuch, so all of my information and thoughts are second hand, hearsay and uneducated mumblings so take them with a heavy dose of salt and wait for responses from those with more knowledge. 

I look forward to the comments from others on the forum. I know there have been discussions on the issue of taking a Nonsuch offshore in the past, maybe 1.5 to 2 years ago. 

Mark  (never afraid to put his oar in the water) Powers & Nesta Davies

La Reina 26C (C for classic coastal cruiser)

Burrard Civic Marina

Vancouver B.C.

[Al Maclatchy]

I suggest you read the book "Without Rival" by By Brian H. Shelley and Mary Beacock Fryer.   see http://www.squidoo.com/without-rival-a-nonsuch-sailboats-saga. It shows what a tough sea boat a Nonsuch is even when abandoned.
Allan and Judy N26C Swale Ottawa canada.

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[Richard Darrow]

This might be very interesting reading but if anyone is foolhardy enough to sail one of our aging Nonsuch’s across the ocean… have at it... I suggest you go first. To my understanding even with a brand new rig this boat was NOT designed for ocean crossings but rather is a coastal cruiser, Bahamas, etc.

[Hotmail (matthews_jon)]

I also had wanted to cross oceans in my N30U as well, but now probably will not.

I am including below a few snippets of the past INA messages which convinced me.

Look for past messages titled :

“long distance cruising on a Nonuch 30 U” and

“Wind Vane Steering & Heaving-To”

 

re: long distance cruising on a Nonuch 30 U

 

I decided that my Nonsuch 30 was not the boat I would take across an ocean and that three weeks was enough for me. ... There are many very good to excellent ocean cruising boats in the 30 - 35' range. The Nonsuch 30 isn't one of them. ... Bob McPeek

 

I sailed my N26C from Halifax, NS to Holyrood NL (700 Nm) this Summer, for a while we had 30kt wind and 12ft sea, We were running with a double reef sail making at times almost 8kts, because the boat was rolling so much many times the end of the boom would hit and dip in the sea causing the sheet to go slack then when the boom lifted again the sheet would snap tight stressing the sheet rigging and boom, if the seas got any bigger or if it had lasted for an extended period of time we would have to drop our sail and go on by engine under bare pole, mind you the boat itself had no problem whatsoever standing up to those conditions but the rig it would eventually fail, I believe like John Newell mentioned a loose footed battenless sail would work better under such conditions. Conclusion: a Nonsuch is the Ideal Coastal cruiser not the ideal bluewater boat.     Reg Coombs

 

I can't tell you that I have experience in blue water cruising I do

have a few thoughts you might consider. The comfort ratio and capsize

ration for the Nonsuch 30 are 22.55 and 2.1 respectively. For the

Niagara 35, 30.75 and 1.86. The higher the comfort ration and the

lower the capsize ration the better. The Niagara is going to have a

much more comfortable ride in rough seas and it is a far more stable

boat according to the numbers. The Niagara was designed for offshore

cruising the Nonsuch 30 was not.

You could solve the low bridge deck problem by locking the lower

washboard in place or building a bridge deck. You can add additional

cockpit drains. Some owners have added a second track for a storm

sail.     Mark Powers

 

Many of us could go on and on about this and have done so in the past. If you

are talking about a week or more on the open ocean on a Nonsuch, many would

advise against it. Despite early advertisements, the Nonsuch is the ultimate

COASTAL CRUISER but NOT well set up for extended ocean voyages. I, and many

others, have spent extended times living aboard -- once for 8+ months cruising

from Maine to Key West and back. I would have no problems taking the boat

"offshore" to the Bahamas. If you're talking about a trans-Atlantic voyage, I

would say NO!!!!!

If you can be more specific about what you mean by "long distance cruising" and

"blue water cruising", we could be more specific with our advice.    Allen Ames

 

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re: Wind Vane Steering & Heaving-To

As far as bluewater goes Win Sanford gave a very interesting talk at the Newport Rendezvous about what he did to rig a Nonsuch 30 for ocean racing. I would also recommend reading the book "Without Rival" about a Nonsuch 30 that sailed across the Atlantic with and without crew onboard. I think our boats are tougher than the people who sail in them.

http://www.nauticalmind.com/Without-Rival-pr-70583.html

 

I believe a double halyard is mandatory.

====

From: Patrick Cobham

Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 6:47 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Nonsuch across oceans?

[Ernie Abugov NS22 #56 S/V Moustaches]

Hello all -

I am new to the world of Nonsuch and adore my NS22 for its build quality, style, comfort and fun-to-sail quotient but I (sure as all hell) wouldn't do an open sea voyage with her (or even a 36 footer). 

The boat simply has far too many idiosyncrasies (Nonsuch-isms) that COULD prove harrowing/deadly in a real situation. She rolls - she swings - she is a Nonsuch, after all. She sails like a million bucks under most circumstances but, just because she possibly COULD cross oceans, is no justification for believing that she SHOULD. Given ideal circumstances, an Optimist COULD cross the ocean (all by itself as the owner would have jumped ship after a few hours...  )..

Prior to "Moustaches", I owned a Carter 30, a marvelous Blue-water 1/2 tonner that is truly built to sail safely and comfortably in the swells (or ..   ????) that one finds in the open sea. but...  no free standing mast, no comfy head and bed, inadequate headroom, oodles of ancient standing rigging (read: $$$$$$), a tiny cockpit and severe old age to put up with. 

So I now have have a Nonsuch because I have accepted the fact that I will gleefully sail on the Great Lakes, with ease and in comfort and NOT cross the seven seas.

One should cross the ocean in a vessel that has a reputation for doing the job so well that a less-than-excellent sailor can enjoy the trip, not survive the escapade.

And that's my two cents !!

Best          Ernie Abugov    Toronto 

[Paul Robson]

Some years ago I sat at a table at a meeting of the "Shellbacks " in Toronto with three people all of whom had "lost" a Nonsuch offshore..

In 25 years I have sailed from the Caribbean to Canada to Oman and back to Thailand .. that is across the Pacific and across the Indian Ocean twice, as well as doing a transatlantic delivery.  I was on a full keel cutter with skeg hung rudder.

I know that people have crossed the Atlantic in a Nonsuch, I have seen the most unlikely boats in far off places, sometimes  I have chatted with them and asked about their voyages. Almost invariably sailors sailing off shore on non off shore boats have told me about how uncomfortable it was and about breakages.

Almost any boat can sail around the world given good weather and good luck, it is the bad weather and bad luck that will get you.

Paul Robson

Sea Cat N30U

Cruising the Intercoastal

Sent from my iPad

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[Mike]

Well, I'm certainly not considering taking my Nonsuch 30 across the Atlantic anytime soon since that bucket list item was satisfied by a passage I made on the Queen Mary 2 a few years ago.  Still I sometimes have a strange desire to head out out of sight of land for a few days or perhaps a trip to Bermuda at some point. As others have mentioned (and is chronicled in the Without Rival book) a few Nonsuches have traveled across oceans and they seem to be tough enough even if the humans on board may not be. Certainly, there are modifications that need to be made and "what if" plans thought about. But, I think a major consideration is how to "stop" the boat  if things get too rough and to be able to "relax" down below until things settle down rather than trying keep going until something breaks or helm  fatigue causes some other error. As others have said hoving to is problematic with the mast forward on a Nonsuch. Likewise with the thin flat transom using a drogue does not seem like a good idea either and does not "stop" the boat anyway.  So I guess the only option would be to use a sea anchor on a Nonsuch. I was wondering with the bows tendency to fall off if Lin and Larry  Pardey's "storm tactic"  technique using a sea anchor might have some advantages on a Nonsuch?

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

http://biankablog.blogspot.com

[Joe Valinoti]

Well said, Paul!

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221 (1984)
Sea Harbour Yacht Club
Oriental, NC

 

   PS - If you're on the ICW in Eastern North Carolina, look me up

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Robson

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Cc: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 7:50 PM

Subject: Re: Nonsuch across oceans?

[Bill Spencer]

A fellow INA member you might want to talk to is Win Sanford, who like
his father before him, has sailed several Bermuda races in his NS33,
winning a few of them. Win has developed a fairly comprehensive list
of preparations for open water sailing in a Nonsuch and they might be
helpful to you. Email me if you want his contact information
(secretary[at]nonsuch.org).

I've done a couple Bermuda crossings in one of the original Freedom 40
cat ketch's, and that boat caused us no worries even in fairly rough
seas. But the Freedom was built even stronger than the Nonsuch, IMO,
and without a divided sail plan I think I'll keep my Nonsuch close to
shore.

Bill Spencer - LIONHEART, NS30U 352 Hyde Park, NY

[Allen Ames]

Not to beat a dead horse, but.....

There are all kinds of books that describe various ocean "voyages" on boats that were not designed for the task. There is a great book by a guy who made it in an 8-footer (Bill Dunlap, who made it across the Atlantic and wrote a wonderful book about it. He was later lost trying to cross the Pacific in the same boat). A guy named Manry, I think, did it in a 14-foot "Tinkerbelle".)  Most of these books were written by the SURVIVORS! I would describe these as "stunts". The folks who failed are usually not around to write about it! Brian Shelley is a lucky exception.

George Hinterhoeller told a great story about a phone call he had received from the survivor of an unsuccessful ocean crossing. He described spectacular "surfing" downwind at over 14 knots while he screamed in absolute glee. He then told George about over-riding a wave and the bow submarining on the other side. As he said, "The boat stopped dead in its tracks and the rig just kept going. BUT IT WAS WORTH IT!" 

Allen Ames

[Ernie Abugov NS22 #56 S/V Moustaches]

Well, Allen..

Maybe it WAS worth it !!  I agree, though - I think this horse is very dead. Although, I do look forward to reading a book by someone who crossed the ocean..   and didn't survive.

Ernie Abugov   Toronto