Priority VS Order terms

[Alexander Obuhovich]

In-Portal has Priority column in tables, which data is displayed also on Front-end. This allows to position data in any order, no matter what sorting user has specified.

I personally like Priority term, but according to Dmitry's input about user experience it seems, that "Order" term would be more appropriate.

As a temporary measure we changed translation of "la_col_Priority" and "la_fld_Priority" phrases to "Order" to solve that problem.

Now, when I really need to have column/form field named "Priority" I see "Order" instead.

If "Order" term is no longer needed, then I propose to revert that change. If it's still needed, then appropriate "la_col_Order" and "la_fld_Order" phrases should be added and used, when appropriate.

--
Best Regards,

http://www.in-portal.com
http://www.alex-time.com

[Dmitry A.]

Hi Alex,

Yes, I agree we should revisit this topic and decide where to use one and another and make final changes to the Language Labels.

One of the reasons for this was to have Order term in Catalog where it's MORE intuitive in terms of "ordering" the Sections in the Menu.

I'll talk to our project managers here to see what they have to say about this since it was their initiative to do this for User Friendliness purpose.

DA

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

Hi guys,

I'm also for using "Priority" because:
- "Order" word by itself is also part of "in-commerce" lexical field
- Priority sounds more intuitive to me, the only missing part is a
contextual help (because highger priority means a lower number)

I'll open another post about admin interface, after having reviewed
other CMS, we really miss an intuitive interface, mainly made of "?"
hints, to have "on the fly" help when we need.

p.

2010/12/12 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>:

[Alexander Obuhovich]

- Priority sounds more intuitive to me, the only missing part is a
contextual help (because highger priority means a lower number)

I use negative numbers to get around that. But positive number would be more intuitive of course.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

this is not a problem itself if we have a clear help about that.
Also we cannot use negative numbers now, because Order field is a dropdown :)

2010/12/12 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>:

[Alexander Obuhovich]

For categories/section, yes, it's now automated there, since categories now represent Front-end menu too.

For other pages, like language list and link list it's still input text.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

right :)

[ky4ep]

I actually do agree with Dmitry that Order is a better and more intuitive term.  From my experience working with customers Order makes more sense to them and I had customers ask me what "Priority" means.

[Alexander Obuhovich]

However order also means customer order in In-Commerce and that's very confusing and especially for translators.

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:25 PM, ky4ep <and...@ky4ep.com> wrote:

I actually do agree with Dmitry that Order is a better and more intuitive term.  From my experience working with customers Order makes more sense to them and I had customers ask me what "Priority" means.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

I propose "Display order" or "Display Priority". Why should we stick on 1 word?

2010/12/15 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Dmitry Andrejev]

I believe we just have to have 2 separate words as Alex proposed in the beginning: 

Phil, I see NO problem with using 2 words, but it make it quite long considering we have 2 digit number there...

Listing Order & Listing Priority - can be used as Sorting HINTs when we mouse over the Field to change sorting?

DA

--

Best regards,

Dmitry A.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

if we think about putting hints, then we don't have anymore problem, nowhere ! I'm awaiting to have hints I could translate :)

2010/12/16 Dmitry Andrejev <dand...@gmail.com>

[Alexander Obuhovich]

Putting hints for grid columns is a big problem actually. Dmitry just added "Sort By " words in front of each column.

Sadly, but phonetically it work only in English. When Russian language pack is used, then all looks pretty strange. Maybe hint like Sort By "<FieldName>" will be more usable in other language packs, then Sort By <FieldName>, that we have now.

[Dmitry A.]

Hi Alex, 

Can you please list the most problematic Sort Bys here so we can review and discuss the options?

Thanks.

[Alexander Obuhovich]

I think that this should be globally renamed back. There are no specific place. I just think, that old "Priority" term is more descriptive.

[Dmitry A.]

I guess, let's define which parts of the system MUST have it named Order and we can change the rest to Priority term.

Do agree on this?

DA

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

personnally I'd prefer a single term for the same action, not depending where it happens.
I'd suggest to create hints for column hearders, where we could place few words.

2011/1/3 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>

[Dmitry A.]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for suggestion, can you please include your example (actual working here?)

Thanks.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

like "alt" value popup, but in a nice way, just like all those rounded
" ? " we see everywhere by now. This is an :hover contextual help

2011/1/4 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>:

[Dmitry A.]

Phil, it's a problem to add "?" everywhere as you described this - at least in current Interfaces.

I have reviewed this again and I have the following thoughts:

1. Priority term WON'T work for us. Priority is NOT a number rather a type - normal, urgent, immediate. This means it's NOT a good terms for this role in my opinion

2. Order term WON'T work for us. Order terms is TOO common and while it can be translated as Default order

I have reviewed another web cms and found that instead of Priority or Order we can use: Sort. term or similar. Please keep in mind that in the end we are specifying Default Sorting by a number in this field.

As to changing Alt text for the fields, I can recommend:

Sort by: Default Sorting

Sort by: Name

Sort by: ANY Field

I know Alex was against it, but I have checked in Russian too. It would look like:

Сортировка по: Имени

Let talk this through so we can conclude and start with this implementation.

DA.

[Alexander Obuhovich]

I have reviewed another web cms and found that instead of Priority or Order we can use: Sort. term or similar. Please keep in mind that in the end we are specifying Default Sorting by a number in this field.

Since both terms don't fit, then what should we do?

Сортировка по: Имени

This won't help, since phrase for name is called "la_col_Name" and it's translation in nominative case is "Имя" (and you have used genitive case), so it becomes: "Сортировка по: Имя". This doesn't sound right. Adding another phrase just for alt on each column isn't an option too.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

about "?", we don't need to have a character, a simple hover on the
column title could also dispaly the hint; very easy and very
user-friendly, if before clicking on the column title you know what it
does .

the real function is "Display Order", is it too long?

2011/1/17 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>:

[Dmitry A.]

Hi guys,

I propose the following:

1. In Grids change Order / Priority term to Sort. - yes it might sounds a little strange, but after all we define the Default Sorting - which would be the number and not a terms, plus it's 100% clear. If you look at the Synonyms of Order - it has more than 40+ which means it's confusing in any case. Priority is okay, but can't be a number by definition.

2. In Grids when you mouse over the Sort. term or any other term you see "Sort by: Name" or "Sort by: Default Sorting". This means that we might need to add the ability to specify different terms for sorting hint. The reality is that I saw at least 2 times users (mostly clients) asking what these are for and why it says the same as text above. In other words, it's NOT 100% clear to all of them. For us - yes, we know this with closed eyes, but since it's simple to implement I vote for this.

About issues with having separate label option for Russian Users - I think most of them will understand how it works even without doing it, but I would add this option for those who really need it.

3. On Add/Edit form have it say "Default Sorting".

I am just trying to explain where I am coming from with this ideas.

DA

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

Dmitry, thanks for summarizing, I'd just say that the :hover text label should be more explicit than just 2 words, and I'd recommend this :hover contextual in all column titles

2011/1/17 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>

[Andrew Kucheriavy]

How about "Sorting" in the grid? "Sorting", not "Sort".

[Alexander Obuhovich]

You mean, that we have too much "sort" word in the grid:

• green triangle near each column has "Sort By: Field Name" alt
• Priority column will be renamed to "Sorting"

In result there will be too much sorting. Maybe renaming Priority into "Master Sorting" or "Primary Sorting" will make more sense.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:52 AM, Andrew Kucheriavy <and...@ky4ep.com> wrote:

How about "Sorting" in the grid? "Sorting", not "Sort".

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

I propose again "Display sorting"

2011/1/19 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>:

[Dmitry A.]

Hi Phil,

Actually, "Display" term not really needed since it doesn't describe anything except that it's on display, but we have no other use except Display - right. That Sorting would be considered a Default Sorting in most circumstances which is why we are having this field at all. Make sense?

So I am for - "Sorting" or "Default Sorting" or "Def. Sorting".

DA

[Alexander Obuhovich]

Not always "Priority" column presence in table means, that it will be used for default sorting.

For example all links have 0 as Priority all the time, so default sorting won't change much. We could have cases, when Priority will not be included in sorting by default. So giving "Default" word to that column, just because we assume that it will be default doesn't make sense.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

some ideas:

"Manual sorting"
"Front-end sorting"
"Modify sorting"
"Modify Default Sorting"

2011/1/20 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Dmitry A.]

I guess, I would vote for terms: Sorting - simple and meaningful :)

DA 

[Alexander Obuhovich]

So you will get such texts (with hints) in the grid:

1. V (Reset to default) - it's big green arrow on the left
2. Name (Sort By Name)
3. Template (Sort By Template)
4. Sorting ( what hint here ? )

I'm still not convinced, that this is the best term to use. And when translated to other language packs especially.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:59 AM, Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com> wrote:

I guess, I would vote for terms: Sorting - simple and meaningful :)

DA 

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

Trick here is we can sort the actual display by "front-end sorting order", i.e. we sort the sorting order, not very meaningfull, that's why I proposed to add something related to front-end.

2011/1/21 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Alexander Obuhovich]

Actually (when not changed by user) then same link list will have identical sorting on both Front-end and Admin console. That's why column name "Sorting" instead of "Order/Priority" doesn't add more sense.

[Dmitry A.]

Looks like we are back to square one and we can't really agree on any new good term for this.

I guess, we'll just have keep searching and ask other users to participate more!

DA

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

at least adding a balloon hint will help in any case.

2011/1/25 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>

[Alexander Obuhovich]

Strange, but I suddenly liked "Display Order" term, that was suggested earlier. Since somebody else suggested it, but I liked it, then we have a progress here.

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

I like it too, not because I proposed it, but because it seems to me the closest to reality and admin understanding.

And I'd still like to see a nice contextual balloon, this way we cant put all the explanation we want :)

2011/1/25 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Alexander Obuhovich]

I just happen to have what you need: http://craigsworks.com/projects/qtip/demos/ .

I personally like it, since it:

• is jQuery plugin
• uses only css (no corner images or hardcoded backrounds)
• works everywhere
• lots of settings, like: where it appears (top, bottom, left right), appearing timeout
• can automatically attach to all elements, that have title/alt attribute specified
• supports multi-line tooltips
• supports HTML in tooltips

About tooltips:

• I propose that add "?" icon to all fields on all forms, since users, who don't have experience with In-Portal don't know what "Status" field means for example.
• Show sample value (on the right or on the bottom) from the field for the tricky or just any field, e.g. "FieldName [?]: [input box] sample value in small text"

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

you guess I fully agree with this proposal :)

just a note, this is not "what I need", but a proposal to greatly improve admin interface. We could move all subtext help to these balloon and have lighter forms :-)

2011/1/25 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Alexander Obuhovich]

I guess we should discuss all that interfaces in other discussion.

[Dmitry A.]

How about Sequence term? 

Do you like it?

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

too much technical, no?

2011/1/28 Dmitry A. <dand...@gmail.com>

[Dmitry A.]

Hi Phil,

May be a little yes

Andrew, Alex what do you think?

[Alexander Obuhovich]

I have nothing against sequence.

[Dmitry A.]

I have done some research and here are the results - list of all terms we have so far:

Order - In-Portal

Ordering - Joomla

Weight - Drupal

Sort - Bitrix

Sequence

Display Order

Sorting

Priority

Please vote for yours or propose a new one!

DA

[Alexander Obuhovich]

Sequence

[Phil -- wbtc.fr --]

display order

2011/1/29 Alexander Obuhovich <aik....@gmail.com>

[Dmitry A.]

I am for:

Sorting or Sequence

Andew, please cast your Vote!

DA