this is SO EASY.....no contest needed...

[Alex Weber]

Mozilla might be trying to do thing the hard way (IE: The Microsoft
Way - no pun intended) but really it isn't a huge marketing campaign
that's going to KEEP people using firefox. START using sure, but
continue using isn't going to achieved through marketing alone.

So here's my informal suggestion to end them all:

Make a better product, period.

Sounds silly huh? Honestly, since Firefox is if not the most one of
the top downloaded browsers, then what's keeping people from
continuing to use it?

I'm kind of a zealot in that I've stubbornly used FF since the
earliest 1.0 public betas even though I had to (when nobody was
looking) use IE for certain other things. Most people are not as
passionate/retarded as me and will just drop the "new exciting product
that works sometimes" for the "dull old product that just gets the job
done".

I'm not a marketer and personally I think this is the wrong
approach... if your product is good enough it will sell itself.

So really here's a few personal suggestions:
- memory leaks. yes... STILL! This is like a huge gaping wound that
keeps getting bandaged....
- unnecessary new features (not USELESS but definitely not in the
right prority order)
- don't get so hung up on version numbers
- v3 for example broke a few things and things that are just too
random to complain about and not get flamed etc but for example
phpMyAdmin or MS-Sharepoint enabled sites only open half the time with
FF3 (other times i get cookie/password errors and then i turn to FF2
installed standalone and it just *works*.

What do other browsers have that Firefox doesn't (in terms of good
functionality)?

IE - ActiveX (not good functionality, but necessary esp. for corporate
users)
Opera - Nothing special but a few nice things (speed-dial, switch
between cached and realtime images) and also WAY, WAY lighter in terms
of memory usage.
Chrome - Same as opera pretty much...
Safari/Webkit nightlies - Similar to chrome and nice integrated
debugging features.

So basically, FIX THE DAMN MEMORY LEAKS.
I have IE6, 7, Opera 9.x, FF2, FF3, Chrome and Safari installed on my
development laptop and I gotta run most pages I make through them all
before publishing and I gotta say NONE of them comes even close to the
absurd amount of memory that firefox consumes.... especially OVER
TIME.

Maybe the flaw is the plugins... maybe there are a few poorly-written
plugins out there that drag it down... maybe... but please I'm sure
most tech-savvy firefox users wouldn't mind waiting longer for new
features if they knew the team was committed to fixing every last
memory leak and inefficiency. (starting from after 3.1, duh! we all
want to play with that new JS engine :) )


sorry for the long post but i think i've made my point! :)

[GAZ]

He has got it pretty well right.My opera has the fastest downloads out
of all the mozilla browers and firefox has to be able to do better
with it's plugins.Chrome I do not think I will try,I have had too much
troubles with google lately freezing and collapsing.I do have some
troubles with IE7 and IE6,but not to the same extent.I will explain it
another way.I am on IE6 using google,all of a sudden it collapses on
me.If I use yahoo,altavista or live search I do not get these things
happening to me.When I go to youtube through my mozilla firefox using
google,I do not even get any video playing.So something funny is going
on with the plugins.I am leaving now,I got to check some hardware for
my new computer on the net.

[Alex Weber]

nobody else care to comment?

i pray that mozilla will not blow millions on an ad campaign when what
they REALLY need to do is just tie off a few loose-ends they have in
an already GREAT product...

[Mercereaux]

it's become obvious to me that users will use whatever works the best,
fastest, and has the fewest problems. when "my way" is better/faster/
cheaper than "their way" they'll use mine. buy mine. works for
computers, web apps, or anything else.

since the browser wars succeeded in making all browsers free 10 or 12
years ago, THAT's not an issue. so, better and faster are the
measures. and comfort. "DON'T MAKE ME CHANGE"... is the other issue. i
use what i can use the fastest.

and people are glad to donate time/braincells to make something
worthwhile succeed. money isn't the only or even the best motivator.

[Bosshogg]

I'm in with Alex Weber on this - mostly. I do understand that when
everyone is selling the same thing it is the customers perception that
matters and I'm guessing that's the reason behind this contest - to
sway the perception...but I'm not sure any marketing campaign can have
this lasting effect.
"Hi I'm Luke Skywalker and when I surf the Internet I use Firefox";
cue cheesy grin == blow me!

Like Alex my first reflex was to improve the product which could be
tied into a marketing campaign - "I can't do without Firefox because
it has this big red button that does stuff." If there's already
millions of downloads happening then sales to a customer base isn't
the priority issue. Keeping the customer hooked needs not only a
reliably functioning headache free product as Alex mentioned but
something useful that the other browsers don't have. ( I might have at
least one good idea for that.)
People rant about MS products and call them "bloatware". Think about
the FF buglist and see what can be streamlined to make it perform
better.

Anyhooo good luck whatever the decision

Ray.

[Alex Weber]

Thanks for the support guys, I had a feeling I wasn't gonna be alone
on this one! :)

Here's to releasing 3.1 (cause of the hype and new js engine) and then
STOP adding and start FIXING! :)

-Alex

[Pajarraco]

I agree with you on what you said it, FF is a great product and they
sell itself. but the problem is when you are new to Internet or assume
that the people that make your computer know exactly what you need,
and get a computer with Windows or Mac that have all ready install IE
or Safari.

If you what to make a campaign try to make the people how do not know
anything about computer to get the FF install when they buy a
computer, and work on it to fix the problems and make it better so
they continuous using it.

I sorry for my pour English, I hope you understand.

Ernesto. pajarraco.com

[Alex Weber]

Ernesto makes a good point here, which is similar to a discussion that
I was having over on another forum about Google Chrome...
MOST people in fact will just whatever is available out-of-the-box (IE/
Safari/etc) and most of these will only update if its "forced on them"
by an automatic update or something.

So in that respect yes there is a need to make the "non-poweruser"
become aware of Firefox and go ahead and use it...
Browsers are like Operating Systems and Programming Languages in a
sense: there's a lot of varieties, each has its pros and cons, and
most people either don't care or are so passionate about their choice
they overlook the bad-side. =P

I know that as far as *nix distros go FF has done good in getting it
included in standard installs, but maybe trying to cut a deal with MS
or Apple to try and get it preinstalled or maybe as an optional
install could be a good idea...

I'm still not convinced that a huge marketing campaign is what FF
needs right now...

Alex

[LemonWarlord]

"We’re suggesting a $10,000 budget limit for the creation and
execution of your marketing plan."
Then there's the $3000 prize.

"i pray that mozilla will not blow millions on an ad campaign when
what
they REALLY need to do is just tie off a few loose-ends they have in
an already GREAT product... "

Which just makes an incorrect statement.

Right now, I do believe that this is actually a useful marketing
campaign.

If you've done your research, 57% install it (the other 43%?).
Then after that, 49% have it after 30 days.
So only 28% actually use it the whole way. Now I don't think that this
requires a lot of effort or money.

Now the goal is to retain users, not to market it out, and honestly, I
think the 43% who don't even install it are easy to get to install,
and I'm guessing the 51% after installation is easy to keep after you
figure out why, or make it do x better, or have new users understand
x.

Memory leaks being fixed are important, but I honestly can't see how
it effects the 43% who don't even install it.

Additionally, trying to cut a deal with MS or Apple is stupid, since
why would they do that? They gain a section of the market that uses
their software, and IE was essentially a monopoly until a certain
point.

[Alex Weber]

I'm tempted not to take you seriously because of your screen-name but
anyway here goes:

What's an incorrect statement about saying that a product is great,
despite having a few loose-ends? Being great and being perfect are
different. And having loose ends and being great aren't mutually
exclusive anyway, for that matter.

As for the research, I'd like to see where you pulled your statistics
out of.

I don't doubt that the fact that the percentage of people who 1)
download software, 2) install it and actually 3) become regular users
are similar for ALL software in general, not just firefox. And
firefox market share has been growing steadily and according to this
source (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) is
actually the most used-browser, period. Not that its the perfect
source but kind of contradicts your IE monopoly diatribe.

And cutting a deal with Microsoft and Apple is definitely NOT stupid.
It's unfeasible. Since its a fact that most users just use whatever's
provided for them out-of-the-box, having Firefox pre-installed in
Windows and Mac OS (even if only OEM market) is a huge plus.

And again, it's easier to market to GAIN new users than to RETAIN
them. The average user will try something at least once if it's
marketed/sold well to them, but they will only keep using the product
if it satisfies or exceeds their expectations. Right now the problem
with Firefox as I see it is a bit of a rush to push out new versions
and features without making sure the 'core' is as good as it can be.

Firefox has had some issues since 1.x (memory leaks) that still
haven't been fixed appropriately and, digressing, the fact that Google
chose Webkit over Gecko for Chrome says something about the Gecko
engine. When your product has plugins like this one:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7103 it clearly shows
that you need to fix some things.

Anyway, the whole point of this discussion not to argue about petty
issues and the whole point of this group is to help Firefox so let's
just start doing that instead of bickering.

Alex

[sandeepreddy yennam]

hi dis is sandeep actually i havent yet done any campaign for mozilla publicity dis was my own idea of publicizing the people about mozilla and i dowant any fruit for the thing i cud do

[Sedan]

Trying Fire Fox and Retention.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think the buzz is important. I have been on computers for about 10
years and never thought much about the browser because of the bundled
ie. When you first start out there is so much on your plate that
multiple systems seems to be a distant priority.

The thing that got me started on Fire Fox was the buzz about Chrome. I
read the comic book on chrome and read the news about it day after
day. I finally decided that Chrome in the beta was a little more than
I wanted to get into,but in my reading I found that Fire Fox was
further along so I gave it a try. The down load and installation was
easy and so I began.

I liked it. I liked it a lot. The uncluttered page made navigation a
breeze. Leaving the browser and coming back to the same 4 or 5 pages I
mostly use was very useful.

Now for the retention part. Exploring the add-ons at my own pace kept
me coming back. I was able to try out these new plug ins and accept or
reject them without fear of fouling up my computer. The layout and
plain language seems to instill confidence that I haven't found in MS.

Regards
Sedan2 http://sedan2.blujay.com/

[LemonWarlord]

Not take someone seriously just because of their screenname? Kinda
stupid.

Anyways, point by point.

The incorrect statement was the millions of dollars on advertising,
it's only $13000, not much more, and a fourth of it is for the prize
xP It is a good product, with loose ends.

Stats
http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2007/11/02/firefox%E2%80%99s-funnel-factor/
This one is also similar, but with less accuracy.
http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2008/07/17/life-after-launch-of-firefox-3-revisited/

Of course there is a percentage that doesn't, but if it's something
simple to fix, why not fix it to keep in more people?
A good example was in one of the recent blog posts.
http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2008/09/30/multivariate-testing-coming-to-wwwmozillacom/
"For example, through testing, if we find that by adjusting some
element of the design of the Fx product page (e.g., changing the
download button from green to blue) that the download rate increases
by 1%, that’s 1% of new community members we’ve previously been losing
each day due to the simple fact that a single web page was not
optimized."

I also know of the fact that Firefox is growing, but I'm going to say
those values are off, since I think they're measured by hits on the
w3.org site and they stress standards, which FF follows and IE follows
to a lesser degree.
This is a paid company's data.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpdt=1&qpct=4&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=93&qpnp=25
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=116&qpmr=40&qpdt=1&qpct=3
(Try week, you need to log in with a paid account)

Also, I meant Microsoft and Apple cutting a deal with Firefox xP Linux
uses it because Firefox embodies the open source mindset.

Gaining new users is expensive, and considering there is a lot of area
to grow, (43% on install, 51% on keep), trying to figure out easy,
simple ways to fix it is a lot easier than advertising.

It's also doubtable that google would choose Gecko if it wants to best
Firefox, so they choose a different platform. Plus, those kind of add-
ons are for people who "need" the fixes now. What would you like
Mozilla to do, release a new patch every time they fix something? I
think they group like 20 fixes in each package.

But yes, I do believe us talking about this does not help the
situation, but I strongly believe that this is a good way to expand
Mozilla further, without too much effort or expenditure.

> engine.  When your product has plugins like this one:https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7103it clearly shows

[Alex Weber]

@Sedan:

Great idea!
Come to think of it, even though its nothing new to Opera for example
("widgets") and IE ("add-ons"), Firefox's Add-ons/extensions are
definitely a MAJOR selling point. IE's (as far as v7 goes) support
for plugins/addons is laughable and Opera doesn't have half the
community backing that FF does and consequently not half the wealth of
extensions available.

Somebody make a note of this! :)

Alex

On Oct 20, 8:30 pm, LemonWarlord <lemon-warl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not take someone seriously just because of their screenname? Kinda
> stupid.
>
> Anyways, point by point.
>
> The incorrect statement was the millions of dollars on advertising,
> it's only $13000, not much more, and a fourth of it is for the prize
> xP It is a good product, with loose ends.
>

> Statshttp://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2007/11/02/firefox%E2%80%99s-funnel-f...
> This one is also similar, but with less accuracy.http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2008/07/17/life-after-launch-of-firef...

>
> Of course there is a percentage that doesn't, but if it's something
> simple to fix, why not fix it to keep in more people?

> A good example was in one of the recent blog posts.http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2008/09/30/multivariate-testing-comin...

> "For example, through testing, if we find that by adjusting some
> element of the design of the Fx product page (e.g., changing the
> download button from green to blue) that the download rate increases
> by 1%, that’s 1% of new community members we’ve previously been losing
> each day due to the simple fact that a single web page was not
> optimized."
>
> I also know of the fact that Firefox is growing, but I'm going to say
> those values are off, since I think they're measured by hits on the
> w3.org site and they stress standards, which FF follows and IE follows
> to a lesser degree.

> This is a paid company's data.http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpdt=1&qpct=4&qpt...http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2&qptimeframe=M&qps...

> > engine.  When your product has plugins like this one:https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7103itclearly shows

[Josh]

Ok, For the lack in time, Not saying Your comments are not important.
but I am really tired. So will just make a few comments on the first..
Comment..

Haha, Anyway, I am using FF3 now. And yes, The memory leaks are
horrible. I can run FF for about an hour or 2, Before I have Firefox
Idling at 200meg ram using. No kidding I have a screenie of it. The
Add-ons are Terrific. I love the fact I can press Tools-Add on's. And
use the Search feature to find just want I need to have firefox
customized to the way I want it. The Spell checking is a nice factor
too. I don't own every browser. So don't know how many others have it.
I think Opera might. but its a bonus.

Basicly. Make it faster and get rid of the Memory Leaks. I have no
Idea how hard that maybe. But perhaps just... Next update of Firefox.
Be one that doesn't use 200megs at Idle. Not to mention, Once it gets
that high. It gets real slugish. I can type a message and have to wait
as the characters slowly appear on the screen.

I know people with Chrome that can have 40+ tabs and not have any
where near this usage.

Ok enough about the Memory Leaks. (Which is at 84meg now)

It is true that Firefox has a massive community behind it. and
releasing new content for it. In a way that no other browser has is
most certainly a high light.

How ever. A negitive side. Is that. FF3 has some glitches with
formatting of web pages, For example. The Home page to this who
"Impact Mozilla" doesn't even display right for me.

Haha, I think if Firefox just fixed a few glitches that it has. The
Display of Content. And the Memory Leaks. I would only have to give it
to one person. For them to like it enough to give it to another
person. and so it spreads. And I have already turned a good 20 people
to. Regardless of its problems. Imo. The Best Browser Currently
Available.

Anyways, I am tired and my arm is killing me. Don't use laptop on
couch, Not comfortable.

Nights

[Alex Weber]

Hey Josh,

FYI: FF3.1 beta 1 apparently fixed some of the page-rendering
inconsistencies you mentioned. Reference: http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/

As for the memory leaks I suspect that besides being a flaw in the
core it might also have something to do with addons (simple example:
FF3 with 8 addons installed and 2 tabs open = 110mb x FF2 with 2
addons and 2 tabs open = 30mb)

Sure its a very subjective test but either way might be something to
look into.

Alex

[glimmerman]

I think Alex you may have missed everything written out in the contest
outline.
Its about getting users to stay. Marketting doesn't mean, a TV Ad...
its research. Its a look into the market you are trying to secure a
peice of. Its looking at what the market wants, and adapting your
product to meet those needs. Not an ad. Therefor, it is critical they
have a marketting approach, it is there way of getting thousands of
approaches to the problem, by having a contest.
So really, you just answered the contest question, with a marketting
viewpoint - as you just analysed what other people are seeing and
getting and experiencing from the competition - and then said
basically "this is what Mozilla is up against, this is what it needs
to contend with and this is what it needs to come up with as parrt of
an approach to deal with the issue" - obviously, I highly doubt you
even realised anything you said was an answer as such, in a marketting
way, but I thought I would turn it into one.
Marketting is something I don't study, but not something I see as just
a TV ad or some banner at the top of a webpage.
If I could be bothered to enter this competition (and anyone can feel
free to take whatever they like out of what I say here) -
To keep the users that grab Mozilla for the first time, have a run,
and then slow down till they don't use it anymore, it needs to offer
users something to make them need it.
Here is an example;
Petrol prices are going up, but people are still paying for it... why?
It's needed. And this is causing all kinds of problems now, adding to
the economical issues etc, because businesses must use petrol, or shut
down, there is no alternative.
In the browser side of things, you have alternatives - internet
explorer, have got such a big market section, because its too
expensive for companies to shaft all their Windows systems and install
say Linux. So IE has been given a whole bunch of features that
integrate with businesses apps etc, making work day to day easier, but
also making it reliant on the use of their systems.
At present, if Mozilla was to try to throw a massive challenge out
there, they could attempt to get some business dependency also, but
the other problem is copyright, proprieteries etc. Active X controls
for example, Microsoft implemented them and this is the whole issue,
they run on not only webpages but also intergrate with your word
documents, with your spreadsheets, with your databases so on.
This means streamlined integration, they all go hand in hand.
Mozzila, instead of attempting this sort of "attack and grab" on the
market by trying to implement functionality like some have mentioned,
because thats what it is, an attack on the other, should pick and aim
for a different market.
Who uses a computer most, the 40 year old company executive or the 16
year old on myspace? This completely removes the need for attempts to
play a monopoly like shuffle on the corporate market, that would be
too much a vast and fast change, and risky in the eyes of businesses.
However, integration and ease of use with things like Myspace (and
other social networking sites), MSN (and other chat protocols), If you
look, Myspace is becoming huge - Music - myspace music is taking off
and taking myspace with it.
Therefor, I think to grab a larger branch of the market, the largest
most "online by time" group is teenagers, and through slowly
intergrating Mozzila products with what they use, eventually they will
come to drag it outwards, taking it with them. They will be the work
force one day, and over time of increasing Mozzila's usage, Mozzila
can also slowly add in functions to cater for the business market that
its current "young" users will enter, streamlining their transition
from social user to corporate user, because they can bring Mozilla
with them, seamlessly.

So for me, I think the aim is to grab a market that doesn't move too
fast, but is guaranteed to move.
I think its too risky for Mozzila to take on corporate aspects of
other browsers in one campaign, its too much to tackle, and well above
$10,000.00 worth.
However with addition of integrational features, where for example, it
became say the "official" browser or "recommended" browser for social
sites like "myspace" where users can easily access their friends,
their music, their whole virtual world with Mozilla features that
really open up and give a more dynamic approach to the entertainment
side of the net, they can grab a very large user market.
Things like Mozilla Music for example, or Mozilla Vids, Mozilla
chat... who knows, but if its something cool, the biggest market of
people online the most, are definately going to grab for it.
Once they have that hold on more people, using those features, they
will continue to use such features because they will always be using
those sites etc, its a case of people wanting to use - and who doesn't
like getting on the net for entertainment?
All this talk about safe browsing? Increased functionality? Free? - I
think markets want to know more about how it fits in with their
world... and how accessing their world online is better with Mozzila.

[Kven]

Maybe Alex right!NO Contest needed!

Here,I just give some opinion.

I using Fx from version 1.5,that time memory using only 15,000k,
but now Fx3 is 113,220k with 5 tabs. In this way to verify Fx is more
memory used.
If memory problem can be fix,
I think this is best browser for notebook and low-hardware user.

I read the marketing sharing on w3school.
Chrome got 3% in browser market in 1 month.
What the reason it can make other browser user (include FX and IE)
used it?
Is it a light-weight browser or given a best perform?
What thing is KHTML can do it,but FX not?

Actually,from the start to now Fx is direct at mid-hardware users
and ...
for me, I very like Fx And-On Function. It make my work easily.
I bet Fx can be a all users best choice browser with fix memory used
problem!

*PS:IF problem fix,no more secure,no more stable,the better way is no
need fix anything!

Thank you!

[Alex Weber]

Glimmerman,
I understand your points and appreciate the effort you put into your
message, but really I'm just arguing that the money would be better
spent elsewhere.

That said, gonna post my suggestion. :)

Alex