[GNU/Linux-discussion] Buying a Windows laptop without windows
Koushik Kumar Nundy
I was planning on buying an extra laptop/netbook for travelling, and
have narrowed down to two models.[1][2]
However, both have preloaded Win7, which obviously is an addon to the
price. As I won't be using the windows anyway, I tried to get the
shopowner to arrange for a OS less model, which she couldn't. (OT: She
seemed clueless about why one would want no Windows. When she realised
I would use a different OS, a gem of an advice was offered. We can
delete the OS for you.)
I remember an anti-trust case in the US where it was decreed that if a
user does not want the Windows, (s)he can reject the EULA and ask in
for a refund equal to the price of the Windows. Does anyone know if
that was an US specific directive, or whether the ruling has
international implications? If we can indeed ask for refunds with
these *licenses*, can anyone guide me through how I should proceed
with the same?
[1] http://www.acer.co.uk/ac/en/GB/content/models/aspireone722
[2] http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/series/category/notebooks/dm1z_series/3/computer_store
Thanks,
Koushik Kumar Nundy.
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A. Mani
> Hi everyone,
>
> I was planning on buying an extra laptop/netbook for travelling, and
> have narrowed down to two models.[1][2]
>
> However, both have preloaded Win7, which obviously is an addon to the
> price. As I won't be using the windows anyway, I tried to get the
> shopowner to arrange for a OS less model, which she couldn't. (OT: She
> seemed clueless about why one would want no Windows. When she realised
> I would use a different OS, a gem of an advice was offered. We can
> delete the OS for you.)
>
Mention the name of the store.
It is illegal to sell that way.
If they are deleting the OS, then they should also have a refund
process in place.
The M$ EULA for vista says
"IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. INSTEAD, CONTACT
THE MANUFACTURER OR INSTALLER TO DETERMINE THEIR RETURN POLICY FOR A
REFUND OR CREDIT."
For xp it was "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT;
YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
I can put you in touch with lawyers. Write a full article with details.
> I remember an anti-trust case in the US where it was decreed that if a
> user does not want the Windows, (s)he can reject the EULA and ask in
> for a refund equal to the price of the Windows. Does anyone know if
> that was an US specific directive, or whether the ruling has
> international implications? If we can indeed ask for refunds with
> these *licenses*, can anyone guide me through how I should proceed
> with the same?
>
There have been developments in France. Shop owners will end up paying
fines there if they do not provide the refund.
A mere refund is not sufficient as per UK laws.
btw OS less models are available.
Best
A. Mani
--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.co.cc
Koushik Kumar Nundy
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Koushik Kumar Nundy <kkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I was planning on buying an extra laptop/netbook for travelling, and
>> have narrowed down to two models.[1][2]
>>
>> However, both have preloaded Win7, which obviously is an addon to the
>> price. As I won't be using the windows anyway, I tried to get the
>> shopowner to arrange for a OS less model, which she couldn't. (OT: She
>> seemed clueless about why one would want no Windows. When she realised
>> I would use a different OS, a gem of an advice was offered. We can
>> delete the OS for you.)
>>
>
> Mention the name of the store.
>
> It is illegal to sell that way.
>
in India but in Hong Kong.
> If they are deleting the OS, then they should also have a refund
> process in place.
They seemed absolutely clueless about the same. I'm not sure if it was
ignorance or malevolence.
> The M$ EULA for vista says
> "IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. INSTEAD, CONTACT
> THE MANUFACTURER OR INSTALLER TO DETERMINE THEIR RETURN POLICY FOR A
> REFUND OR CREDIT."
>
The stores often act pre-emptively with benevolence and activate the licenses.
> For xp it was "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT;
> YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
>
> I can put you in touch with lawyers. Write a full article with details.
>
I haven't faced this in Kolkata for a long time. Usually they just
tell me they'll get me an OS free version if I wait a few days.
I bought a Dell Vostro 3300 from their site (HK store) in '11, with
Windows preinstalled. I asked Custcare for one with no OS. They told
me point blank that was not possible. You want me to write an article
about that? I had to settle by taking the Win-Vista version which
costed significantly lower than the 7 (over ₹3.5k), but still greater
than 0 obviously.
The total number of windows logins (I have a dual boot) is around 5 in
total over a year, and in 2012 currently stands at 0. I plan to get
rid of it entirely but never got round to doing it.
>
>> I remember an anti-trust case in the US where it was decreed that if a
>> user does not want the Windows, (s)he can reject the EULA and ask in
>> for a refund equal to the price of the Windows. Does anyone know if
>> that was an US specific directive, or whether the ruling has
>> international implications? If we can indeed ask for refunds with
>> these *licenses*, can anyone guide me through how I should proceed
>> with the same?
>>
>
> There have been developments in France. Shop owners will end up paying
> fines there if they do not provide the refund.
>
Could you guide me to any particular ruling?
> A mere refund is not sufficient as per UK laws.
>
Just out of curiosity, what else, besides the refund, is expected in UK?
> btw OS less models are available.
>
I would sure love it if someone could point me to similarly specced
OS-free ultraportables. Primary requirements are HDMI, sizeable HDD,
>1.5kg and reasonable processing. It needs reliable Linux drivers,
naturally, which hopefully shouldn't be a problem these days.
> Best
>
> A. Mani
>
>
Thanks,
Koushik.
Mandar Mitra
> They seemed absolutely clueless about the same. I'm not sure if it was
> ignorance or malevolence.
Hanlon, Heinlein, Napoleon... take your pick :).
> I haven't faced this in Kolkata for a long time. Usually they just
> tell me they'll get me an OS free version if I wait a few days.
> I bought a Dell Vostro 3300 from their site (HK store) in '11, with
Our experience with Dell in this regard has been uniformly good. We have
purchased several laptops without Windows, including some that are not
explicitly advertised as having an n series (i.e. OS free) variant. Of
course, I don't know if they have ultraportables in the price + spec
range that you need.
mandar.
A. Mani
>> It is illegal to sell that way.
>>
> As I mentioned earlier, is this international policy? I am not buying
> in India but in Hong Kong.
The law differs from place to place, especially on the implications.
Some are unclear on who should pay the refund. But generally it is
illegal.
Hong Kong has its own laws... you will need to check it.
>> I can put you in touch with lawyers. Write a full article with details.
>>
> I haven't faced this in Kolkata for a long time. Usually they just
> tell me they'll get me an OS free version if I wait a few days.
> I bought a Dell Vostro 3300 from their site (HK store) in '11, with
> Windows preinstalled. I asked Custcare for one with no OS. They told
> me point blank that was not possible. You want me to write an article
> about that? I had to settle by taking the Win-Vista version which
> costed significantly lower than the 7 (over ₹3.5k), but still greater
> than 0 obviously.
>
>> There have been developments in France. Shop owners will end up paying
>> fines there if they do not provide the refund.
>>
> Could you guide me to any particular ruling?
http://no.more.racketware.info/news/hardware-software-bundling-crumbles-france
http://aful.org/communiques/share-your-operating-system-bundling-tales-with-the-eu
http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/19/0154224
>> A mere refund is not sufficient as per UK laws.
>>
>
> Just out of curiosity, what else, besides the refund, is expected in UK?
The particular case should mean fines on both the seller and M$.
Then there are anti competition laws etc
>> btw OS less models are available.
>>
> I would sure love it if someone could point me to similarly specced
> OS-free ultraportables. Primary requirements are HDMI, sizeable HDD,
>>1.5kg and reasonable processing. It needs reliable Linux drivers,
> naturally, which hopefully shouldn't be a problem these days.
>
There are quite a few ultra-portables without OS available. HCL,
Lenovo,Dell, Acer, MSI etc have some... check ebay, chandni
e.g http://www.ebay.in/itm/SAMSUNG-MINI-LAPTOP-NETBOOK-N100-MA05IN-10-1-DOS-2GB-320-BLACK-ATOM-N435-/260972874570?pt=IN_PC_Laptops&hash=item3cc3320b4a
(price ... check ...)
Best
A. Mani
--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.co.cc
Koushik Kumar Nundy
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Koushik Kumar Nundy <kkn...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>> It is illegal to sell that way.
>>>
> Some are unclear on who should pay the refund. But generally it is
> illegal.
> Hong Kong has its own laws... you will need to check it.
>
Will go through them and get back here.
>>> I can put you in touch with lawyers. Write a full article with details.
>>>
I probably will, but I'll keep trying the unbundling option with greater effort.
>
> http://no.more.racketware.info/news/hardware-software-bundling-crumbles-france
>
> http://aful.org/communiques/share-your-operating-system-bundling-tales-with-the-eu
> http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/19/0154224
>
Thanks for the links.
>>> A mere refund is not sufficient as per UK laws.
>>>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what else, besides the refund, is expected in UK?
>
> The particular case should mean fines on both the seller and M$.
> Then there are anti competition laws etc
>
Interesting.
>
>>> btw OS less models are available.
>>>
>
> There are quite a few ultra-portables without OS available. HCL,
> Lenovo,Dell, Acer, MSI etc have some... check ebay, chandni
>
In all these years of buying and using computers, Chandni has truly
been heaven for the soul.
> e.g http://www.ebay.in/itm/SAMSUNG-MINI-LAPTOP-NETBOOK-N100-MA05IN-10-1-DOS-2GB-320-BLACK-ATOM-N435-/260972874570?pt=IN_PC_Laptops&hash=item3cc3320b4a
> (price ... check ...)
>
I am not really looking for a netbook, per se, but thanks anyway. [OT
I have a Samsung NC10(2009 model). Truly awesome build. It did have
preinstalled XP, but those were different times with different needs,
and the openSUSE dual boot thankfully worked fine.]
>
>
> Best
>
> A. Mani
>
Thanks for your pointers everyone.
By the way, I found this on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund
Quoting a HK case:
"In September 2009, Mr. F. Huang from Hong Kong bought a Thinkpad X200
preloaded with Windows Vista. He asked Lenovo for a refund of the
Windows OS. Lenovo Hong Kong refused to simply give a refund, but
agreed to provide a refund in condition that Mr. Huang would return
his X200 laptop and take a new X200 laptop without preinstalled OS as
replacement. After three months' negotiation, Mr. Huang returned this
laptop to Lenovo, and received a refund of HK$697(US$90), a new
hardware-equivalent x200 and some extra hardware components."
Case details : https://sites.google.com/site/bb1001dd/freedom-recording/fight-against-the-ms-tax
I already miss my 700HK$ + 1 yr interest. ;)
--
Koushik Kumar Nundy