Can we code in Hindi ??

[narendra sisodiya]

Sorry for the post, but I do not want to hurt and "hindi-wali feeling" inside your soft heart.

Just saw this website -- http://www.hindawi.in/en_US/
run the flash intro and see the code snippet . Coding structure in Hindi gave a big laugh on my face. I was unable to control myself.
I have not downloaded the software But one natural question arise in mind,,

Can we code in Hindi???

My answer is NO, and even if we able to code then also it will be of NO use.

I do not know , why somebody will run these type of software. Coding in Hindi will be really tuff (at least for me) and more over the worst part may happen on one day when the moronic idealistic and policy maker may introduce computer education of Hindi Coding at junior classes level.

Writing English, speaking English and typing C++ code (which has some English keywords) is totally different. Even "Kanitkar" has some books in Hinglish. "hindi bhashi can read them also".

As a programmer I know, changing platform and language is not easy. It takes time . But If I have to shift from English keywords to Hindi keywords it will be really tuff and impossible task. A Hindawi-programmer will also feel same problem while shifting to actual language.

Even this project is getting FOSS awards also. ?????????

In my view it is not a useful effort and will not make any sense. It may be used as a "proof of concept" which tell that "you can make equivalent Hindi or lets say Telugu keywords for any computer language like C++ or XML".

my single question is "when will be become free from cage of ideology"?

Let me give a very good example -- I attended 1-2 classes of one course at IITD, the lecturer was a famous  artist, He was digitizing some art work of a village, he was having some illiterate artist --"village females" . After a small training, those female were having good command in photoshop, and those females made their own terminologies to talk and explain each other. In my View Language is not barrier in case of "software and software languages". All we (Indians) need is a good training. FOSS activities should be concentrate on content and its quality, rather then such "proof of concept" projects.

Let me very specific to the question "Do we really need localization at software and software languages, taking into consideration of Indian progress and total number of common english users"


--
┌───[ Narendra Sisodiya ]──────────────┐
│ http://narendra.techfandu.org │
│ http://www.lug-iitd.org │
└────────────[ +91-93790-75930 ]──────┘

[Neeraj Goel]

Hi Narendra,
What you are saying is right but as you know that computer understand
only binary. Therefore, in whatever language you write, software or
compiler will convert it into binary. As a concept Hindi or any
language can be used to program computers given software and tools are
available.

Now your question - wheather it will be useful?

Then answer is not so straight forward "No". We belive it is not
possible because we are so obssessed with English, that we can't
imagine any other language being used for computer.
But just for your information - in Europe, Japan and Russia etc.
Microsoft has to sell Windows in their language. Because people of
these country are not obsessed by English. On the contrary, Windows in
Hindi is not popular. (Recently I got the oppertunity to listen
Professor and Poet Dr. Ashok Chakradhar. He was professing the use of
Hindi software and telling that he is using it since long and find it
very comfertable. He demonstrated the use of MS Word by writing a few
poems in Hindi before us.)

The advanatge of Hindi or regional language as computer language is
"mass". Mass in India still do not understand English. Only a few
percent of Indian population understands it. And this is the biggest
reason internet could not penetrate in India in many years while
mobile could easily do it in couple of years.

Also, you may be amaged but it is partly true that unofficial language
of teaching in interier of Andra collages is Telgu and similar for
other states. We ourself (IIT Delhi students) talk with professors in
Hindi where ever feasible.

In such circumstances if programming language can be typed in regional
languages, who knows how many good programmers and computer scientists
India can produce. Also, with the recent changes in global economy,
who knows who is the next world leader (or ecomonic super power).

Lastly, with these comments I am not undermining the usage of English
language in Computers but do not want to stop people who are working
in the direction of making computer a language independent system.

Cheers,
Neeraj

with another prospective.

narendra sisodiya wrote:

> Sorry for the post, but I do not want to hurt and "hindi-wali feeling"
> inside your soft heart.
>
> Just saw this website -- http://www.hindawi.in/en_US/
> run the flash intro and see the code snippet . Coding structure in Hindi
> gave a big laugh on my face. I was unable to control myself.
> I have not downloaded the software But one natural question arise in mind,,
>

> *Can we code in Hindi???*

> �������������[ +91-93790-75930 ]�������

[narendra sisodiya]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Neeraj Goel <mr.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Narendra,
What you are saying is right but as you know that computer understand
only binary. Therefore, in whatever language you write, software or
compiler will convert it into binary. As a concept Hindi or any
language can be used to program computers given software and tools are
available.

Now your question - wheather it will be useful?

Then answer is not so straight forward "No".

Yes, I am totally agree.. and infact , i have debated on ILUGD mailing list on this topic and got many useless argument.
 

We belive it is not
possible because we are so obssessed with English, that we can't
imagine any other language being used for computer.
But just for your information - in Europe, Japan and Russia etc.
Microsoft has to sell Windows in their language. Because people of
these country are not obsessed by English. On the contrary, Windows in
Hindi is not popular. (Recently I got the oppertunity to listen
Professor and Poet Dr. Ashok Chakradhar. He was professing the use of
Hindi software and telling that he is using it since long and find it
very comfertable. He demonstrated the use of MS Word by writing a few
poems in Hindi before us.)

The advanatge of Hindi or regional language as computer language is
"mass". Mass in India still do not understand English. Only a few
percent of Indian population understands it. And this is the biggest
reason internet could not penetrate in India in many years while
mobile could easily do it in couple of years.

Also, you may be amaged but it is partly true that unofficial language
of teaching in interier of Andra collages is Telgu and similar for
other states. We ourself (IIT Delhi students) talk with professors in
Hindi where ever feasible.

In such circumstances if programming language can be typed in regional
languages, who knows how many good programmers and computer scientists
India can produce.

NO, this argument true only and only if we have enough hindi coding material and books and many such thing,
"Coding in Local language" is bad idea in any sense, And If we are in India this idea is a "foolish" idea when we have so many local language.
 

Also, with the recent changes in global economy,
who knows who is the next world leader (or ecomonic super power).

Lastly, with these comments I am not undermining the usage of English
language in Computers  but do not want to stop people who are working
in the direction of making computer a language independent system.

Please understand there are two points
!) Coding in local language
2) communicating in local language
I am not agree with first point,
I am agree with second point, that communication "text, audio, video, mails " can be done with " modified local language" which has modern dictionary words in short "Hinglish"
infact, whenever, I will my video lectures for students, many will be in Hinglish.
But if many talk like use full Hindi and say computer as "ganak yantra" and so on ,, it gives me a high-level of irritation.

└────────────[ +91-93790-75930 ]──────┘

[Phani Bhushan Tholeti]

Well Im not sure of programming in a regional language, but there have been studies which say that
using Sanskrit (or atleast its grammar) would make a great programming language, becuse of the FSM struture and linguistics of
Sanskrit. I believe all Indian languages are similar, they leave very little scope for ambiguity unlinke English, French etc.

In this sense, probably coding in Hindi, or Telugu or any Rgnal lang migh be advantageous, rather than having languages whose syntax you have to learn - look at this from a beginner's point, most of you guys are excellent programmers who use the UNIX command line more than anything else, but remember not all are such, many of use still prefer GUI. so in this case if the programming language is equally well understood both by the user and system without much change, it is the next level of programming.
I got this idea just now. Can we start a new thread?

Narendra,
How about putting it in ur "ideas" blog?

--
Lots o' Luv,
Phani Bhushan

Let not your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right - Isaac Asimov (Salvor Hardin in Foundation and Empire)

[Neeraj Goel]

Thanks for a good sprit in the discussion.

You need not to worry about so many languages in India, they are like
different target architecture which any programming language translate
to.
One language can be translated to other without any difficuly. As
Phani said,
they are all similar, we just need to modify the keyword.

Now technically speaking, a programming language is more like a set of
rules
and keywords with which you can put forth a logic in a non-ambigious
way.
So, Phani, as programming laguage has its own grammer which is bound
to be unambigious, so
I can ensure you that it is more profound then Sanskrit.

But with this I can coin an idea -
A new language which is based on our regional language is at higher
level then most programming
languages like 'c' or 'java'. Which may help common man to write
program and use logic to drive
and design new softwares. The softwares which may of use only a
specific work. Such softwares, even though
inefficient but will be useful.

Cheers,
Neeraj

On Oct 7, 1:46 pm, "Phani Bhushan Tholeti" <tpb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well Im not sure of programming in a regional language, but there have been
> studies which say that
> using Sanskrit (or atleast its grammar) would make a great programming
> language, becuse of the FSM struture and linguistics of
> Sanskrit. I believe all Indian languages are similar, they leave very little
> scope for ambiguity unlinke English, French etc.
>
> In this sense, probably coding in Hindi, or Telugu or any Rgnal lang migh be
> advantageous, rather than having languages whose syntax you have to learn -
> look at this from a beginner's point, most of you guys are excellent
> programmers who use the UNIX command line more than anything else, but
> remember not all are such, many of use still prefer GUI. so in this case if
> the programming language is equally well understood both by the user and
> system without much change, it is the next level of programming.
> I got this idea just now. Can we start a new thread?
>
> Narendra,
> How about putting it in ur "ideas" blog?
>

> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 13:43, narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > wrote:

> >> > Just saw this website --http://www.hindawi.in/en_US/

[narendra sisodiya]

Never in a time of history, we Indian got a platform to have a common things, like language, communication , etc,
now at the age of Internet and globalization, we Indians are getting a common platform which is "computer and English" ,
Localisation of software and their GUIs is again a new "divide and rule" kind of thing. localisation will keep us divide and never we will be able to stand in front of world.
for example, in my office, if everybody has done their master/BE in their local language then you can assume how much problems of communication we will be facing,,
As a technical point  of view, you can assume it like -- microsoft create VB and VML, but w3c specify JavaScript and SVG to do the things, so microsoft should make their browser compatible to new standard which are world wide accepted..
You can assume English as worldwide standard for communication and computing language. and we should adopt it. If we do not support it, we will face problems. This is a true fact.


     Please do not give any example of China and France, "they have a a common agreed communication language" and we have many many language inside country.

    We cannot translate whole Internet to Hindi and Telugu etc, we cannot translate whole materials, daily we use to get a whole lot of software and framework, how much effort will be needed to make it,,,

     Even if we able to make  two very high level computer language in Hindi and Telugu and by magic many "North + south Indian" are started using it,,
Will it be useful,?? to whom we will sell software, ?? why client will take them ?? moreover we will be limited in our "golden cage" ,,

        "Please do not recommend Hindi or local language based coding to anyone or mailing list other wise I will come to your home after some year tell your baby to lean coding in "Hindi / local language" and that time, do not stop me" and yes i will bring copy of hindubuntu or telubuntu with me also,,

       You know for us it will topic does not matter much,, but soon after 2-5 year, may be due to politics, these local language software or coding have a fair chance to become part of syllabus. that generation will suffer,,

      Even a child who do not speak English can work and play computer,, So, Do you still think that we need Hindi GUI software??

      Yes we need , but only in the limited case ,, and that limited case where the user is like my papa or mamma,

       But Those software and programming should not be included in academic section, because today every student has basic knowledge of English, so it will not be difficult to learn computer,,, But if you teach computers and programming using Hindi or Telugu GUI software , right from childhood , they will suffer in future
       This is similar to "shifting from window addiction to Linux" -- even I have addiction of Fedora Linux,, I cannot and do not want to work other then Fedora.

But our main talk was, "coding is local language" -- I do not prefer this idea.

           Please do not spread or work in this idea. If you still want to code you can code in local language , you can try out like this,,

save all '#defines' in separate file to make your code clean,

#include<iostream>
using namespace std ;
# define agar if(
# define jab_tak_ki {
# define esa_karo do
# define shuru {
# define tab ){
# define khatam_agar }
# define pahla_function  main
# define ank int
# define manlo int
# define mana_ki int
# define barabar_ho ==
# define barabar  =
# define likho cout<<
# define vapus_chalo return


ank pahla_function (){
    mana_ki aai barabar 5 ;
    agar aai barabar_ho 5  tab
           likho "ramram dunia\n";
    khatam_agar
vapus_chalo 0;
}


Note : This code will compile without any error on gcc, and will give results also,,
save it as mera_code.cpp
and try this

# gcc mera_code.cpp
# ./a.out

@phani
I will try to write all these in my blog,,,

[narendra sisodiya]

# gcc mera_code.cpp
# ./a.out

please correct it,, it should be ,,

# g++ mera_code.cpp
# ./a.out

[Neeraj Goel]

I understand your concern. To support your point I also belive that It
may happen even franch, chinees and russian
as a language will not survive in global envirnemnt. But they will
always survive in their local place.
In small cities, towns and villiges, english can not penitrate in even
next 20-50 years.

My prospective is, such kind of efforts are targeted for those
people. For example, we started learning science and mathematics
with Hindi medium and later at intermediate level (12 level)
everything changed to english. The same would be advanatge of
introducing these local language based computer courses. And
programming and the related tools will definately help student to
think more logical.

As far as custmores are concerned, anybody can buy softwares made by
these languages. Does it matter if a software is written in c or c++
or java?

Specifically as I said earlier, the major advanatage of such software
would be for people who has very specific needs. For example, in a
office somebody need to do to schedule some jobs/person every month
and it consume a lot of time and mind. If a local programmers - like a
6th class student is made to understand his problem and code it in the
computer, the problem may be solved. The software designed by student
may not be good in efficieny or data structure but if works that is
good enough. And I guess it should not be un-imaginable to get a 10
year old to solve a well defined problem.

I hope I made my point.

Cheers,
Neeraj

On Oct 7, 4:38 pm, "narendra sisodiya" <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[narendra sisodiya]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Neeraj Goel <mr.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

I understand your concern. To support your point I also belive that It
may happen  even franch, chinees and russian
as a language will not survive in global envirnemnt.  But they will
always survive in their local place.
In small cities, towns and villiges, english can not penitrate in even
next 20-50 years.

My  prospective is, such kind of efforts are targeted for those
people. For example,  we started learning science and mathematics
with Hindi medium and later at intermediate level (12 level)
everything changed to english

we "shifted" from science to engineering -- ask them who do not shifted platform but medium, they suffer problems,,, and this example is not appropriate

I think case is much different,
even i do not have time to shift  from my 1.5 year fedora experience to Gentoo, why a child will shift from "hindawi" to C++/Java in English,,

You try to develop some packages/software using Hindawi/hindi font based coding,, you will get know that how much problem you will face,,, Same thing will occur for those who has habit to problem in Hindi keywords but later at some stage will be forced to code in English language . That time they will suffer,and they will curse all those who promoted and hypnotized mind of new generation,

I know coding will become easier,,?? but it that the only criteria,,,?? , I will a solid example ,
Please note that this example has apology

Coding in local language --> easy --> like window
Coding in actual form , English  --> small difficulty --> like Linux

"6 year before, GOD came to India with pirated CDs of window, and distributed to many new children like me and told us take this OS this is very very easy to use and he hypnotised everybody in my region and nobody told me about Linux OS. when I came to IIT I first coded in TC3 for first 6 month in windows again for next 6 month, not even professor of so called IIT also told me.. and there was not active Linux group was there at that time,.later I came to know about Linux,.  All the "A+ mastery" and everything I did on Linux was in last 3 semester. and I can say very proud that my 6 CGPA  of masters was really a 20+ CGPA efforts. That time I "cursed/abused" that GOD who did not told me about Linux in my BTech time, I would have been learned a lot,, and this is the only reason why I am so dedicatedly active in foss communities specially LUG@IITD for last 1+ year" "em-powering education by giving good educational content is the only motto of my life"

You may hypnotise new generation and yourself and give them a easy/complex tool for coding in local language but they will curse you later time (just like me)
and many thank to "Bjarne Stroustrup" who do not think like this other wise he will make C++ in his local language (he is from denmark, ) and I and whole world will be learning language of denmark (idk)  by this time, !!!!!!

"I always say please make educational content to teach village and poor children" that way you can em-power them ."
even I have a example , where "illiterate village females , local artist in their art" got good command over Photoshop during digitising process of their art.
All they were given a good training --- that is all needed,, yes,, I am fully favour in giving training in local languages.. infact my tool "Eduvid" will be having multilingual features,,

Last but serious,, -- "my nephew use hindi theme in nokia mobile , he is very little and under 5th class, he can change all sort of settings , and he is comfortable to that theme, because mobile dealer gave him as default theme, the dealer has made that theme mother-theme, he is ready to change it, just like , today i do not have time to sit and know hack about gentoo,.adn start coding on gentoo,,, fedora works fine for me,,, ,,scale this example.,, if he work for hindi coding and software , he will face difficulty.at later time,,,"

Very frankly I am not worry , not even 1%.. I know , never a Indian/anybody will be able to make a good coding platform in local language or if he able to develop also , that scheme will not sustain..and will fail after a time, no body will use it,,

Please believe me ,, this task has  "NP hard " complexity,,
If "development of India" is the only goal and there and always many "visible" ways to do it,,

. The same would be advanatge of
introducing these local language based computer courses. And
programming and the related tools will definately help student to
think more logical.

As far as custmores are concerned, anybody can buy softwares made by
these languages. Does it matter if a software is written in c or c++
or java?

Specifically as I said earlier, the major advanatage of such software
would be for people who has very specific needs. For example, in a
office somebody need to do to schedule some jobs/person every month
and it consume a lot of time and mind. If a local programmers - like a
6th class student is made to understand his problem and code it in the
computer, the problem may be solved.

If he able to do in hindi, he will be able to do in English also,, I do not know how the hell some #defines or hindi font can help,a student ??, All he need to learn, some keyword,in English,

--
┌───[ Narendra Sisodiya ]──────────────┐
│     http://narendra.techfandu.org
│     http://www.lug-iitd.org

└────────────[ +91-93790-75930 ]──────┘

[Neeraj Goel]

I will just say that Windows was the requirement when you were first
inducted to computers.
(otherwise you might have devamoped a phobia from computer, that it is
too hard to learn)
And now you have learned a lot about computer so can make a good
choice for what OS you want to use on your desktop.

This is the basic of learning system. We are always suppose to start
with simpler concepts/instruments/systems,
And go on with more complex and complete system.
So GOD is always wise and knows what is better when.

As far as changing from one system to other system is concerned, when
you will be forced (by circumstances) you have to do it.
Like if the company you work in, have only solaris or mac machines,
then you have to work on a new OS. With the current knowledge
of two OS (linux and Windows) switch over will be easy. This external
force can be - new features you may like, market/job demand, acaedemic
requirement or govennment policies.

Similarly, if you know C, it is easy to switch to C++; and with C++ to
Java. What we are discussing is increasing a step
before 'C'.

As far as devaloping a new language by a Indian devalopers/scientists
is concerened, I would say with millions of devalopers in India, it is
now more feasible then any other country.



On Oct 7, 8:35 pm, "narendra sisodiya" <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> *

> Coding in local language --> easy --> like window

> Coding in actual form , English --> small difficulty --> like Linux*

>
> "6 year before, GOD came to India with pirated CDs of window, and
> distributed to many new children like me and told us take this OS this is
> very very easy to use and he hypnotised everybody in my region and nobody
> told me about Linux OS. when I came to IIT I first coded in TC3 for first 6
> month in windows again for next 6 month, not even professor of so called IIT
> also told me.. and there was not active Linux group was there at that
> time,.later I came to know about Linux,. All the "A+ mastery" and
> everything I did on Linux was in last 3 semester. and I can say very proud

> that my 6 CGPA of masters was really a 20+ CGPA efforts. That time I *
> "cursed/abused"* that GOD who did not told me about Linux in my BTech time,

> I would have been learned a lot,, and this is the only reason why I am so
> dedicatedly active in foss communities specially LUG@IITD for last 1+ year"
> "em-powering education by giving good educational content is the only motto
> of my life"
>

> *You may hypnotise new generation and yourself and give them a easy/complex

> tool for coding in local language but they will curse you later time (just
> like me)

> and many thank to **"Bjarne Stroustrup" who do not think *like* this other

> wise he will make C++ in his local language (he is from denmark, ) and I and
> whole world will be learning language of denmark (idk) by this time, !!!!!!

> *
> *
> *"I always say please make educational content to teach village and poor

> -- ...
>
> read more »

[narendra sisodiya]

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Neeraj Goel <mr.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

I will just say that Windows was the requirement when you were first
inducted to computers.
(otherwise you might have devamoped a phobia from computer, that it is
too hard to learn)
And now you have learned a lot about computer so can make a good
choice for what OS you want to use on your desktop.

This is the basic of learning system. We are always suppose to start
with simpler concepts/instruments/systems,
And go on with more complex and complete system.
So GOD is always wise and knows what is better when.

As far as changing from one system to other system is concerned, when
you will be forced (by circumstances) you have to do it.
Like if the company you work in, have only solaris or mac machines,
then you have to work on a new OS.  With the current knowledge
of two OS (linux and Windows) switch over will be easy. This external
force can be - new features you may like, market/job demand, acaedemic
requirement or govennment policies.

Similarly, if you know C, it is easy to switch to C++; and with C++ to
Java. What we are discussing is increasing a step
before 'C'.

As far as devaloping a new language by a Indian devalopers/scientists
is concerened, I would say with millions of devalopers in India, it is
now more feasible then any other country.

Try out,
It will not be useful, and it will be a waste of time.

[narendra sisodiya]

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:17 AM, narendra sisodiya <narendra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Neeraj Goel <mr.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

I will just say that Windows was the requirement when you were first
inducted to computers.
(otherwise you might have devamoped a phobia from computer, that it is
too hard to learn)
And now you have learned a lot about computer so can make a good
choice for what OS you want to use on your desktop.

This is the basic of learning system. We are always suppose to start
with simpler concepts/instruments/systems,
And go on with more complex and complete system.
So GOD is always wise and knows what is better when.

As far as changing from one system to other system is concerned, when
you will be forced (by circumstances) you have to do it.
Like if the company you work in, have only solaris or mac machines,
then you have to work on a new OS.  With the current knowledge
of two OS (linux and Windows) switch over will be easy. This external
force can be - new features you may like, market/job demand, acaedemic
requirement or govennment policies.

Similarly, if you know C, it is easy to switch to C++; and with C++ to
Java. What we are discussing is increasing a step
before 'C'.

As far as devaloping a new language by a Indian devalopers/scientists
is concerened, I would say with millions of devalopers in India,

Just give me 5-10 good web developer ..  I am ready to produce Eduvid in 5 month which will be having a infact on whole education system and million stduents of india will really give thanks.

You take rest of million coder with you to develop nation by your thoughts,