Discussion on new words / diskutasion di paroli nov
Mithridates
words. Feel free to just brainstorm or think out loud here.
Here are some I'm thinking of:
bar or pub - bibaderi. bibad = drink, -eri is a place. I was thinking
of alkoleri but that's a bit too direct, and sounds a bit like a place
that would produce alcohol instead of just selling it.
drunk - ebrifikator? A person that makes him/herself drunk. Not sure
about this one.
insendian - arsonist.
nesanitet - insanity.
Mithridates
I'm thinking something like borgmaestr. That would make it cognate
with French and pretty much every Germanic language. The etymology
would also be more obvious to new students than something imitating
mayor/maire, which would also be spelled a bit oddly, perhaps meir or
mair.
David Parke
DRUNK(-ARD)
Is there a suffix to convert an adjective into a noun meaning "one who
is"?
eg in English. Old + -ie = oldie. Means one who is old or something
that is old. also the likes of "greenie" "baddie", "goodie", "dumbie".
Also -o is used in this way in English also: eg pinko, sicko. Romance
languages seem to do something like this a lot too.
Any way, if IN doesn't have a suffix that does something like this, I
think that it should!
Perhaps the mysterious and forbidden "-ad" suffix could be employed
for this.
with such a suffix (i'll call it suffix-x), you could easily form some
good words for "drunk".
ebr = a., drunk(en)
erbr+x = n., someone or something who/that is drunk. A drunk, a lush,
a drunkard.
ebrifikar = v., to make drunk..
ebrifikar + -ed = ebrifiked. The past participle of ebrifikar. made
drunk.
ebrfiked+x = someone or something made drunk.
PUB, BAR
It helps if you can make yourself think like someone from the early
20th century when looking for words in the IN-Eng dictionary.
sometimes what you want is already there:
I've found
bireri = n., beer house, ale house
alberg = n., inn.
I think you'd also have quite good grounds to add new radicals based
on "bar" and "pub"."Bar" seems to be a particularly popular borrowing
from English.
Also, something "tavern" is very international.
eg Ru таверна, En tavern, Fr taverne, It taverna, Sp taberna, De
Taverne, L. taberna
Café is many lands also means a bar, when you can buy alcoholic drinks
as well as coffee.
ARSON
Insendian is already in the IN-English dictionary.
insendian = a., incendiary.
For arson, starting with the radical insendi, I'd derive *insendiism
for arson. In natural languages of the Western European sprachbund
(Aryan languages in the terminology of olde IN), -ism words are often
accompanied by -ist words. eg communism, communist. I'd suggest
*insendiist for an arsonist.
Also it would be nice to have some kind of word for -maniac or -
ophile. Suggesting someone who loves something a bit too much ;-)
Then we could have words like *piromani, *piromaniist
INSANITY
San means healthy or well.
Sanitet means health or wellbeing.
So the meaning doesn't seem to be restricted to mental health like
English. Therefore nesanitet should logically mean more like poor
health or unhealthiness. Not just poor mental health.
I have found the IN already has "fol" which is translated as foolish.
Perhaps this word could be re-defined with the meaning extended to
mean insane/mad. Certainly Fr fou and It folle mean this. And you have
English words like fool, foolish and folly. Then "folitet" means
madness or insanity.
David Parke
En burgomaster, De Bürgermeister, Fr bourgmestre, It borgomastro, Sp
burgomaestre, Ru бургомистр
Yup, seems like a good suggestion.
But if the radical isn't allowed to change, it would be *borgesmaestr.
It's debateable whether this word means master of the citizens or
master of the borough.
IN also has "burg" meaning a borough.
So possibly it could be *burgmaestr.
Mithridates
> Is there a suffix to convert an adjective into a noun meaning "one who
> is"?
> eg in English. Old + -ie = oldie. Means one who is old or something
> that is old. also the likes of "greenie" "baddie", "goodie", "dumbie".
> Also -o is used in this way in English also: eg pinko, sicko. Romance
> languages seem to do something like this a lot too.
>
> Any way, if IN doesn't have a suffix that does something like this, I
> think that it should!
> Perhaps the mysterious and forbidden "-ad" suffix could be employed
> for this.
It could be. In the grammar it says that -ad is the only suffix that
the Academy at the time restricted to their use, but since they don't
exist anymore we have to make use of it as best we can.
>
> with such a suffix (i'll call it suffix-x), you could easily form some
> good words for "drunk".
> ebr = a., drunk(en)
> erbr+x = n., someone or something who/that is drunk. A drunk, a lush,
> a drunkard.
> ebrifikar = v., to make drunk..
> ebrifikar + -ed = ebrifiked. The past participle of ebrifikar. made
> drunk.
> ebrfiked+x = someone or something made drunk.
>
> PUB, BAR
> It helps if you can make yourself think like someone from the early
> 20th century when looking for words in the IN-Eng dictionary.
> sometimes what you want is already there:
> I've found
> bireri = n., beer house, ale house
> alberg = n., inn.
Ah, bireri. I remembered typing a word that meant something similar to
bar but couldn't remember which one it was.
>
> I think you'd also have quite good grounds to add new radicals based
> on "bar" and "pub"."Bar" seems to be a particularly popular borrowing
> from English.
> Also, something "tavern" is very international.
> eg Ru таверна, En tavern, Fr taverne, It taverna, Sp taberna, De
> Taverne, L. taberna
> Café is many lands also means a bar, when you can buy alcoholic drinks
> as well as coffee.
Café would probably be kaf(coffee)-eri, nice and simple. In some
countries they only have coffee while some have alcohol too, but
nobody stresses about the etymology so we could leave it pertaining to
coffee and let others decide if they want to sell alcohol there too.
Tavern is a good idea too considering how many languages use it.
>
> ARSON
> Insendian is already in the IN-English dictionary.
> insendian = a., incendiary.
>
> For arson, starting with the radical insendi, I'd derive *insendiism
> for arson. In natural languages of the Western European sprachbund
> (Aryan languages in the terminology of olde IN), -ism words are often
> accompanied by -ist words. eg communism, communist. I'd suggest
> *insendiist for an arsonist.
Okay.
>
> Also it would be nice to have some kind of word for -maniac or -
> ophile. Suggesting someone who loves something a bit too much ;-)
> Then we could have words like *piromani, *piromaniist
Technically with filosof and filosofi IN has already acquired -phile
(well, phil-).
>
> INSANITY
> San means healthy or well.
> Sanitet means health or wellbeing.
> So the meaning doesn't seem to be restricted to mental health like
> English. Therefore nesanitet should logically mean more like poor
> health or unhealthiness. Not just poor mental health.
>
> I have found the IN already has "fol" which is translated as foolish.
> Perhaps this word could be re-defined with the meaning extended to
> mean insane/mad. Certainly Fr fou and It folle mean this. And you have
> English words like fool, foolish and folly. Then "folitet" means
> madness or insanity.
Checking the dictionary san is gesund (nicht krank), so I suppose that
is pretty clear. Folitet is better for insanity then.
Mithridates
> Let me see,
> En burgomaster, De Bürgermeister, Fr bourgmestre, It borgomastro, Sp
> burgomaestre, Ru бургомистр
> Yup, seems like a good suggestion.
> But if the radical isn't allowed to change, it would be *borgesmaestr.
>
> It's debateable whether this word means master of the citizens or
> master of the borough.
>
> IN also has "burg" meaning a borough.
>
> So possibly it could be *burgmaestr.
Burgmaestr looks good, and it could extend to larger cities even
though its etymology refers to a small town. Kind of like how kaferii
can have alcohol if they want. Deriving a word meaning 'master of
citizens' probably wouldn't be a good idea, plus it's longer too.
David Parke
It would be derived from "borg" originally a borough or fortified town
and -es from the source of En -ese.
It literally is borough-ese. Not sure if in this dictionary, it is a
noun or could be an adjective.
I think that this word should in the modern context mean "bourgeois".
Maybe in addition to the meaning of citizen or maybe instead of it. I
wonder if at the time that IN was originally developed, if bourgeois
had the same derogatory connotation.
Taking the example from everyone's favorite IAL, Interlingua -- it has
burgese (bourgeois) and citatano (citizen). But when IL was invented,
there was enough leftist rhetoric in the Zeitgeist to make bourgeois
have more shades of meaning than simply citizen.
Here's a suggested word/radical: *sitet (city). Than you can add -an
to make *sitetan (citizen), BTW, the dictionary already has "urb"
Let's not mention that there is already sivil, sivilisar, and
sivilisasion.
The most radical radical would be sivi from L.civis (citizen). Maybit
instead of *sitet, it could be *sivitet, yielding *sivitetan
David Parke
Närrisch is foolish. Verrückt is definitely German for insane. Folitet
= DE Verrücktheit. (craziness). Fol(itet) just needs a better English
definition to fill this role.
Mithridates
The dictionary has tenar for hold and sisar for grasp, and I'm
thinking just sisad or tenad would be good enough. Unless somebody has
a better idea.
Mithridates
plantaj in IN. Should I just add orchard to the definition of plantaj
or would something like frukt-hort (Obstgarten) be better?
David Parke
ans = handle, grip, haft.
Maybe some derivatives from the verbs such as tenasitet or *tenasion
could be what you mean to say also,
David Parke
Mithridates
> Remember that grip has more meanings. It also means a handle.
> ans = handle, grip, haft.
Checking the German there though it only has Henkel, Handhabe and Öhr.
It doesn't seem to encompass the meaning of Griff.
>
> Maybe some derivatives from the verbs such as tenasitet or *tenasion
> could be what you mean to say also,
Maybe in a pinch. Sounds a bit scientific though for what I'm looking
for - something closer to hold or grip, and short if possible. The
dragon held the warrior in its fiendish grasp, that sort of thing.
Mithridates
end to make the noun. I'm thinking deliktist as criminal is usually
more of an occupation or way of living (like an arsonist), plus then
delikteri would then become a house/den of thieves whereas with
delikter it could mean either that or just plural for criminal. IN
does have words like this that overlap though (astronom/astronomi,
aristokrat/aristokrati) so it wouldn't be anything new if delikter for
some reason made more sense.
David Parke
Not sure why we shouldn't have more than one word for crime.
Something like "krimin" seems to be a valid radical. That would give
you a few more options for criminal.
Mithridates
the IN - English dictionary doesn't have a word for that. It does have
a word for German Gelenk though (Handgelenk) which is flekt. Clock is
hormetr. Flekt-hormetr could be a bit long so perhaps hormetret for a
watch? And for wrist I'm thinking (manu)flekt.
Mithridates
gives hostilitet for hostility and hostiliteti for hostilities. The
dictionary otherwise doesn't seem to have an acceptable word (though
someone else might spot a good one).
And while we're on the subject, there's no word for guest.
Interestingly though it has all sorts of derivations using German
Gast:
Gasthof - alberg
Gastmahl - festin, banket
Gastwirt - albergist
Now, host and guest and hotel and all the rest have a bit of a weird
etymology:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=host
Since it means at times both guest, and a person that entertains a
guest. IN also has the -el suffix meaning groups of people, so I
wonder if doing a back-derivation of hotel to hot wouldn't be an
interesting way to come up with guest. Hot is a guest, hoti is guests,
and hotel is where all the guests are. Or is there a better option?
Mithridates
kustod-maestr, or literally master guard.
Mithridates
language besides English uses a similar construction:
fr Hausser les épaules
ca encongiment d'espatlles
da skuldertræk
nl schouderophalen
de Schulterzucken
it stringere le spalle
pt dar de ombros
es encogimiento de hombros
sv axelryckning
A shrug (the noun) would then be epol-levasion.
David Parke
world of 1903 and of 2010. In 1903, the wristwatch literally didn't
exist.
I've always thought that the difference between "watch" and "clock"
was largely arbitrary in any case. "watch" was a first any kind of
portable clock. Then in WW1, some soldiers took to wearing them on the
wrist. For a while "wristwatch" was used to specify that the
chronometer was worn on the wrist as opposed to the more conventional
in the pocket. Then after a while, the default changed. "Watch" as
assumed by default to be on the wrist and it was necessary to use
"pocket watch" if it was otherwise.
I personally find myself wearing a wristwatch less and less. I've
since the last 10 years come to rely more on the clock on my mobile
phone and on my computer(s). I don't think I've worn a wristwatch in
the last 4 years. I think within a few years, people will no long
assume that the default for "watch" is that it's worn on the wrist.
So I would suggest forget about the watch/clock distinction!
As a word for "wrist", they don;t seem to have a word for "ankle
either!
I think "flekt" plus a distinctive word when necessary would serve for
wrist and ankle. So manuflekt for wrist and pedflekt for ankle.
On a related note, many languages have not separate words for finger
and toe. For example in Interlingua, the word for toe is digito de
pede. BTW English toe is etymologically related to digit.
Mithridates
> This is a situation which highlights the yawning void between the
> world of 1903 and of 2010. In 1903, the wristwatch literally didn't
> exist.
(I'll tell everybody what it is when I'm done) so there isn't too much
new vocabulary to worry about, just terms that they neglected to add.
> I've always thought that the difference between "watch" and "clock"
> was largely arbitrary in any case. "watch" was a first any kind of
> portable clock. Then in WW1, some soldiers took to wearing them on the
> wrist. For a while "wristwatch" was used to specify that the
> chronometer was worn on the wrist as opposed to the more conventional
> in the pocket. Then after a while, the default changed. "Watch" as
> assumed by default to be on the wrist and it was necessary to use
> "pocket watch" if it was otherwise.
> I personally find myself wearing a wristwatch less and less. I've
> since the last 10 years come to rely more on the clock on my mobile
> phone and on my computer(s). I don't think I've worn a wristwatch in
> the last 4 years.
months ago so I'm wearing one now. It's admittedly not very useful.
> I think within a few years, people will no long
> assume that the default for "watch" is that it's worn on the wrist.
> So I would suggest forget about the watch/clock distinction!
for is also just Uhr.
>
> As a word for "wrist", they don;t seem to have a word for "ankle
> either!
> I think "flekt" plus a distinctive word when necessary would serve for
> wrist and ankle. So manuflekt for wrist and pedflekt for ankle.
motion of the wrist since we already have genu-flektar.
David Parke
interesting thing is that they are from the same indo-european root.
When looking at hotel, don't forget to look at related words such as
hostel and hospital.
I think that hot could just as validly be construed to mean a host
rather than guest. And in French "hôte" seems to mean BOTH a guest and
a host.
I would suggest that English has the perfect solution here and IN
should follow English here.
IN gast for a guest -- based on En guest, De Gast, Ru гость. Fr hôte
IN host for a host. -- based on En host, Fr hôte, It oste
David Parke
check the time is every bit as inconvenient as pulling out a pocket
watch was in the early C20!
If I was fighting a war, I might consider a watch on the wrist to be
faster to get to.
Next time I go to Thailand and can buy a cheap and nice-looking R0l3x
knock-off, I may start wearing one again.
Mithridates
> I think semantically, guest and host are 2 opposite words. The
> interesting thing is that they are from the same indo-european root.
>
> When looking at hotel, don't forget to look at related words such as
> hostel and hospital.
> I think that hot could just as validly be construed to mean a host
> rather than guest. And in French "hôte" seems to mean BOTH a guest and
> a host.
> I would suggest that English has the perfect solution here and IN
> should follow English here.
> IN gast for a guest -- based on En guest, De Gast, Ru гость. Fr hôte
> IN host for a host. -- based on En host, Fr hôte, It oste
Next word is drown. Germanic languages all use something related to
drinking but in-bibar in IN would be more like drink in, as all the
rest of the in- words have that kind of meaning. Wiktionary wasn't
very helpful either at first:
Czech: utopit (cs)
Dutch: verdrinken (nl), verzuipen (nl)
Finnish: hukuttaa (fi), hukuttautua (fi)
French: noyer (fr)
German: ertränken (de)
Italian: affogare (it), annegare (it)
Portuguese: afogar (pt)
Romanian: îneca (ro)
Russian: топить (ru) (topít') (impf.), утопить (ru) (utopít') (pf.)
Scottish Gaelic: bàth (gd)
Spanish: ahogar (es)
Swedish: dränka (sv)
But looking to Interlingua for inspiration it has necar, which comes
from Vulgar Latin and became noyer, annegare and îneca even though the
original meaning was to kill (mortifikar in IN). Then to drown oneself
would just be nokar se. Nekar would technically be the same as nekar
(cheap) but they're used completely differently (ist hor-metr es nekar
- vs. - il volu nekar vo) so no problem there.
David Parke
"sufokar mediu akua" means drown. You could in many cases used
"sufokar" by itself. Also in some contexts "kuvrar" and "sepultar" for
to cover or bury.
Or "moriar mediu sufokasion" and "mortifikar mediu sufokasion" would
also mean drown transitively or intransitively.
Sorry if all of these are unsatisfactory when all you want to say is
"drown". But this is Idiom Neutral. You can't just bring your English
words along and expect the language will be a one-to-one re-
lexification of English.
David Parke
Mithridates
On May 28, 6:42 pm, David Parke <parke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IN already has "sufokar" which essentially means the same thing.
> "sufokar mediu akua" means drown. You could in many cases used
> "sufokar" by itself. Also in some contexts "kuvrar" and "sepultar" for
> to cover or bury.
>
> Or "moriar mediu sufokasion" and "mortifikar mediu sufokasion" would
> also mean drown transitively or intransitively.
>
> Sorry if all of these are unsatisfactory when all you want to say is
> "drown". But this is Idiom Neutral. You can't just bring your English
> words along and expect the language will be a one-to-one re-
> lexification of English.
these new words I'm looking for are coming from German, nekar is from
Latin, and the other languages I know well all have a short way to say
drown (익사하다, 溺れる).
There's a good page here on what happens when new terms are too long:
http://aramis2.obspm.fr/~heydari/dictionary/#Criteria
Sufokar in akua might be okay (and I think I'll go with that for the
time being), but the others are definitely too long.
Mithridates
> Forgot, IN has "mergar" for to immerse, plunge or dip.
Mithridates
word willy-nilly here but it's simply that I'm working so fast on the
translation. I'm 15 pages in so far, and almost all the time I'm able
to find an existing term for everything I need.
David Parke
languages' assumptions along with you. "Drown" can mean more than one
thing in English. The first word that you find might not be the one
you are truly looking for. I think that working simultaneously on IN-
English and IN-Deutsch is a good sanity check. Typically most
conlangers define the words of their new language in terms of another
language -- typically their mother-tongue. If they are not very
linguistically sophisticated, they risk making assumptions about
words' meanings and all they achieve is a re-lexification of their
mother-tongue.
I wish that in my own conlanging (frenkisch) that I had the time
available to always be able to create multiple language definitions.
Defining words in two or more languages helps eliminate ambiguity.
BTW I am loving that Persian article that you directed me to.
Fascinating stuff - very long though.
David Parke
nilly"? ;-)
David Parke
En sergeant, Sp sargento, It sergente, Fr sergent, Ru сержант, Port
sargento, De Sergeant.
Maybe just *serjent would serve here.
It occurs to me that the majority of Interlingua forms would be valid
radicals for IN, based on the guidelines in the IN grammar. They just
need reforming to comply with INs phonology and orthography.
Mithridates
> Good. Like I said, sometimes you unconsciously bring your own
> languages' assumptions along with you. "Drown" can mean more than one
> thing in English. The first word that you find might not be the one
> you are truly looking for. I think that working simultaneously on IN-
> English and IN-Deutsch is a good sanity check. Typically most
> conlangers define the words of their new language in terms of another
> language -- typically their mother-tongue. If they are not very
> linguistically sophisticated, they risk making assumptions about
> words' meanings and all they achieve is a re-lexification of their
> mother-tongue.
> I wish that in my own conlanging (frenkisch) that I had the time
> available to always be able to create multiple language definitions.
> Defining words in two or more languages helps eliminate ambiguity.
>
> BTW I am loving that Persian article that you directed me to.
> Fascinating stuff - very long though.
compels people to ignore these overly long terms in their native
tongue is also what I find often drives people away from auxlangs if
there are too many of them, as they can't imagine a language that
doesn't have a concise word for (insert term here) as being a valid
world language. As for re-lexification, the lack of articles is one of
the aspects of IN I really like as when explaining other IALs to
people here in Korea I've had to tell them that "you basically use
these articles like in English" which led them to see them as a kind
of re-lexified English and not an independent tongue.
One other aspect to IN that is interesting here is the -u ending like
favoru, instead of saying something more like in favor de. The latter
would be okay, but favoru is more IN-ish.
No idea about willy-nilly yet. Luckily I don't need to translate it..
Mithridates
> What about just a new radical based on these words:
> En sergeant, Sp sargento, It sergente, Fr sergent, Ru сержант, Port
> sargento, De Sergeant.
>
> Maybe just *serjent would serve here.
terminology for the police and military so they would probably just
adapt them the way they see fit. Serjent for sergeant, -maestr for -
meister, etc. Otherwise they would have to completely reinvent the
terminology they're used to using.
>
> It occurs to me that the majority of Interlingua forms would be valid
> radicals for IN, based on the guidelines in the IN grammar. They just
> need reforming to comply with INs phonology and orthography.
Matte), and not only does Interlingua have matta for mat but the word
mat (dark, obscure) is also the same as IN. So maybe mata, or ped-
mata. The mat here is a mat for wiping your feet.
Mithridates
but it also has plan as a plane (surface), and it's also listed as
Plan in the German dictionary. In addition to that the word plan (as
in to hatch a plan) also comes from the same etymology:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=plan&searchmode=none
so I'm thinking of allowing plan to be used in both senses. The word
is also used in the same way in languages like Portuguese and Russian
too.
David Parke
homonyms, but essentially one word with more than one meaning.
And they are from the same source.
So for "to plan", is it *planar or *planifikar?
On a related note, in English you have "chart" and "card", many
languages have just one word such as De Karte.