New Module for ISP (Internet Service Provider)

[Paulo]

Hello team.

I worked for small ISP company from 2010 to 2014.
I always dreamed to use Odoo for manage the company needs and even started (as a PM) to dev a new module.
When I found Idempiere/Adempiere, I realized the right ERP should not bee Odoo.

As I have no Dev skill, started from scratch.
Reading Adempiere WIKI.
Started with Java Couse from begging.

Java basic programing
Book Java Head First
Basisc Eclipse use

Improved PostGres skills

And now I fill a little comfortable  to talk about the project with you guys. But not to start by my own.
If there is anyone who want to share this ideal ... I will be very pleased and provide all guide as Project Manager as the configuration for Linux Server, Radius and all the module basic needs.

The objects should be:

Ras:

Name -Char
IpAddressV4 - Number - X.X.X.X (where X >= 1 and X<= 255
Secret - Char (crypt)
MacAddress X-X-X-X (X is hexadecimal, X >=0 and X <= FF)
SshAnable - boolean
SshPort- >= 1 and <= 65535
WebPort-- >= 1 and <= 65535
LocationName - Char
Address- Char
Town - Char
City-Char
Zip
State- Char
Country-Char

IpPoolV4

Name
FirstIp - X.X.X.X and X>=1 and X<= 255
LastIp - X.X.X.X and X>=1 and X<= 255 and LasIP > then FirstIP
Ras - ObjectRas

LocationAvailable

Streed
FirstNumber
LastNameber
City
State
Country
Zip

ContractPlan

Name
LocationAvailable - Object  LocationAvailable
tx-limit-at  - Number
rx-limit-at  - Number
tx-max-limit- Number
rx-max-limit- Number
txburst-limit- Number
rxburst-limit- Number
Tx-burst-threshold- Number
Rx-burst-threshold- Number
Tx-burst-time - Number
Rx-burst-time- Number
priority - 1 to 8

And a few more.

[redhuan d. oon]

Thanks for deciding on iDempiere but what is the real reason? Both has strengths and challenges. Odoo is much more user friendly and have powerful graphical presentations. I just seen one demo from an ex Adempierean expert who switched from ADempiere to Odoo. He however admitted that Odoo lacks document control and security as compared to ours.
I am not trying to discourage you. Since you are starting out from almost scratch, this is to tell you the learning curve is steeper with *piere group.
Anyway, with people like you in mind, I have made an Aladdin Magic Plugin that can create models on the fly. Please try it and tell me if you have any problem with it, I am glad to help and hope you can contribute back with what you have. Please read more of Aladdin here http://red1.org/adempiere/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=1821

[Paulo]

Hi Red1.

I agree with you about Odoo, but it has some positive and negative points.

Positive = Amazing user interface, Python Language, A little easier to develop (in my opinion), The community  is very active...lots and lots of email every day.
Negative = The organization elements arent very defined, the multi company and business organization is not well defined, The BusnessParner and BusinesParnerContac is the same object (it happens from v 6.1 to 7 and cannot work in some countries )

What have i seen in AD/ID.

The company structure is most like SAP ECC...  very organized and well defined.
The possibility for growing and application is endless.
The role control and security of process and documents seems to really work.


The purpose of this Module is to provide authentication method for Internet Service Provide companies, who sells Broad band Internet, Business point to point dedicated connections and telephone service.
The authentications service is managed by radius (FreeRadius or OpenRadius for example) with MySQL or PostGresql .

Most of these companies uses their own applications (sometimes many applications) or adapted and very expensive systems .

With this module, Those companies will be able to manage the hole companies Account, sales, purchases, stores, processes etc..etc..etc.. and theirs customers  in only one place.

To be a little clear http://freeradius.org/dialupadmin.html cant provide the idea of the needs... This is a web interface for administrate FreeRadius.

So...let me Aladdin now..lol

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[Paulo]

[Fabien Pinckaers]

Hello,

Out of curiosity, can someone explain me the topics where iDempiere is better than Odoo:

- What's good in document control and security in iDempiere?

- What's missing in the Organization object of Odoo? Any link to a doc on iDempiere one?

- Why is the iDempiere multi-company model better than Odoo.

- Any link to the partner/company/contact structure of iDempiere?

To not hijack this thread, do not hesitate to answer me in direct.

Thanks,

-- 

Fabien

Odoo Founder

[John Wells]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Paulo <pmaca...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with you about Odoo, but it has some positive and negative points.

Positive = Amazing user interface, Python Language, A little easier to develop (in my opinion), The community  is very active...lots and lots of email every day.
Negative = The organization elements arent very defined, the multi company and business organization is not well defined, The BusnessParner and BusinesParnerContac is the same object (it happens from v 6.1 to 7 and cannot work in some countries )

I'd add to Odoo that historically, licensing has been very confusing and the sales team has made it purposefully so. However, when it was AGPL, you at least had the option of using it and developing against it, provided, based on my understanding, that any of your users could access your source code. Not necessarily desirable, but that probably could be worked with.

However, now they're moving towards an open core model. The core is licensed as LGPLv3, but the rest will be a proprietary license. I personally think you'll see future innovations done in the proprietary section and less features added to the open core. 

As I understand iDempiere's GPLv2 license, you can use the app and develop against it and not have to give your modified source code to any of your users if you're simply using the application to run your business. I think this encourages better collaboration....as a company, we are happy to contribute back what we can, but we don't want to be forced to always do so, nor do we find the open core Odoo is moving towards desirable.

That said, I do think iDempiere has a larger learning curve, as you note, and less documentation. I also dig Odoo being done in Python, even though I have more personal experience in Java. I just don't trust the company behind Odoo or their long term goals. It seems being open is not really the desired end goal. I get it...they're a company with employees and mouths to feed, but I've always felt the open core model to be disingenuous.

Please correct me if I've misstated anything above.

As it stands, we still run our own internally-developed legacy ERP. I wish we had more time at the moment to fully vet iDempiere as a solution, because if it truly met our needs, I think we'd be able to commit a significant donation to creating true and good user and developer documentation. Perhaps one day...

John

 

[Paulo]

Hi John.

Well.. any way... now i like Java better then Python... I could start my module ...
I began from here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1lFHS2riG4&list=UUbBGUUNnLy4kIHxq19DNPbA

[Paulo]

Hello Fabien.
I find Odoo just great.. no one is here for hijack the project... In fact... as you can see.. there are lots of good point we said..
The thing is...no everyone has to agree with changes.

In "MY OPINION" ... Odoo doesnt:
Publish the docs very clear.
treat multi-company very well (comparing to SAP ECC as my reference)
Dont manage Business Partner and Business Partner contact very well (as  all over the world knows)... that is why I quit.

Dont take it as bad... you have your reasons.. and we respect that. But we dont have to take...right ?

This new isue line has not this porpoise.

[Fabien Pinckaers]

I agree with you about Odoo, but it has some positive and negative points.

Positive = Amazing user interface, Python Language, A little easier to develop (in my opinion), The community  is very active...lots and lots of email every day.
Negative = The organization elements arent very defined, the multi company and business organization is not well defined, The BusnessParner and BusinesParnerContac is the same object (it happens from v 6.1 to 7 and cannot work in some countries )

I'd add to Odoo that historically, licensing has been very confusing and the sales team has made it purposefully so. However, when it was AGPL, you at least had the option of using it and developing against it, provided, based on my understanding, that any of your users could access your source code. Not necessarily desirable, but that probably could be worked with.

Yes, I agree this has been the source of lots of misunderstandings. And it could be confusing from an external point of view. Every license change on an open source software have been a huge flame war. It would have been better to avoid it and choose LGPLv3 since the beginning instead of AGPLv3 (my mistake).

 

However, now they're moving towards an open core model. The core is licensed as LGPLv3, but the rest will be a proprietary license. I personally think you'll see future innovations done in the proprietary section and less features added to the open core. 

No, that's not our plan. Our plan is to build a great open source software. But to reach our goal, we need to sustain developments. For now on, 80% of the developments efforts are done on Odoo Community and 20% on Odoo Enterprise and we plan to stick to that ratio. It's a fair ratio: allowing the open source product to grow quickly while creating value to generate revenues.

Without Odoo Enterprise, we would do 100% open source / 0% proprietary, but we would have 5x less developers --> the open source product would grow slower.

So, it's the opposite of what you say: Odoo Community (the open source version) grows faster because we have a sane business model. --> Open Core is the way to reach our goal, not our goal.

For the record, I used to think like you. And it took me 8 years to understand I was wrong: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59/community-12204910

I just don't trust the company behind Odoo or their long term goals. It seems being open is not really the desired end goal. I get it...they're a company with employees and mouths to feed, but I've always felt the open core model to be disingenuous.

We do Odoo since 10 years now. I think we proved our commitment to open source and our willingness to stay in that model. Our goal is NOT at all to go proprietary, but to sustain growth and evolution of the product. The best way to have a product that evolves with it's market is to turn the community of partners profitable and the vendor too. IMHO, it's the best way to guarantee a future to Odoo, because the proprietary competiton is strong and an open source product need to be better than proprietary software to succeed.

 

Please correct me if I've misstated anything above.

Thanks everyone for the others feedback. 

Fabien

[John Wells]

Thanks for your response. Reply interspersed below:

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Fabien Pinckaers <f...@openerp.com> wrote:

I agree with you about Odoo, but it has some positive and negative points.

Positive = Amazing user interface, Python Language, A little easier to develop (in my opinion), The community  is very active...lots and lots of email every day.
Negative = The organization elements arent very defined, the multi company and business organization is not well defined, The BusnessParner and BusinesParnerContac is the same object (it happens from v 6.1 to 7 and cannot work in some countries )

I'd add to Odoo that historically, licensing has been very confusing and the sales team has made it purposefully so. However, when it was AGPL, you at least had the option of using it and developing against it, provided, based on my understanding, that any of your users could access your source code. Not necessarily desirable, but that probably could be worked with.

Yes, I agree this has been the source of lots of misunderstandings. And it could be confusing from an external point of view. Every license change on an open source software have been a huge flame war. It would have been better to avoid it and choose LGPLv3 since the beginning instead of AGPLv3 (my mistake).

 

You certainly haven't been helped by your sales organization over the years, but I'm glad you're making moves to clean things up.

 

However, now they're moving towards an open core model. The core is licensed as LGPLv3, but the rest will be a proprietary license. I personally think you'll see future innovations done in the proprietary section and less features added to the open core. 

No, that's not our plan. Our plan is to build a great open source software. But to reach our goal, we need to sustain developments. For now on, 80% of the developments efforts are done on Odoo Community and 20% on Odoo Enterprise and we plan to stick to that ratio. It's a fair ratio: allowing the open source product to grow quickly while creating value to generate revenues.

Without Odoo Enterprise, we would do 100% open source / 0% proprietary, but we would have 5x less developers --> the open source product would grow slower.

Yes, I completely understand both the need to pay your employees. You're running a commercial enterprise, and not a non-profit. However, is there clarity on what that 20% will be? It's hard for us to commit to using the open source version without knowing what features we won't be able to take advantage of without a commercial license. When we've quoted in the past, the licenses were reasonable if we were paying some other ERP vendor, but as I mentioned, we run our own internal ERP which is free to us to operate aside from the small team of developers we pay to maintain it (which we wouldn't cut if we switched), so compared to free, the licenses were quite steep. We'd rather contribute development resources to be honest.

 

So, it's the opposite of what you say: Odoo Community (the open source version) grows faster because we have a sane business model. --> Open Core is the way to reach our goal, not our goal.

For the record, I used to think like you. And it took me 8 years to understand I was wrong: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59/community-12204910

I just don't trust the company behind Odoo or their long term goals. It seems being open is not really the desired end goal. I get it...they're a company with employees and mouths to feed, but I've always felt the open core model to be disingenuous.

We do Odoo since 10 years now. I think we proved our commitment to open source and our willingness to stay in that model. Our goal is NOT at all to go proprietary, but to sustain growth and evolution of the product. The best way to have a product that evolves with it's market is to turn the community of partners profitable and the vendor too. IMHO, it's the best way to guarantee a future to Odoo, because the proprietary competiton is strong and an open source product need to be better than proprietary software to succeed.

That's very good to know. Thanks for your response. 

[kittiu]

Hello Febian,

I was in Adempiere long before I change to Odoo 3 years back. I saw your questions in iDempiere forum. It is the things I used to ask also in Odoo forums. But most of the time points are not understood by Odoo people.

I will answer on behalf of Adempeire only since I was there before the split, and never have chance to dive in to the new stuff of iDempiere. As your questions are not on the surface, Adempiere and iDempiere database structure are the same and I think they still do now.

Please note that, there are also things that Odoo excels at. But I think not what you want to discuss. So, for the good of Odoo, here you go!

Frankly speaking, when my team first switch to Odoo, my accountant (a CPA) can not accept how Odoo accounting works. Per her quote, she said Odoo is not an ERP, it is just accounting software disguised with business processes automation.

But given Odoo market potential, user friendliness and technology so we finally switch at the end. There are many point I love about Odoo, i..e, ease of development, breath of features, modularity, communities, etc. But still I agreed up to today that, structure of Adempiere seem to be more of what the big organization would need.

Document Type in Adempiere

Adempiere is real "Document Type" based ERP, while Odoo is Accounting Book (Journal) based ERP.

To start with, Adempiere has a dedicated window that allow user to set up around ~80 account code that would cover every kind of business scenarios.

So, in any transaction windows, there will be no Accounting Book (Journal) to choose like Odoo, but rather the "Document Type". For example, in an Invoice window, it could be Invoice / Credit Note / Debit Note / Performa Invoice, etc.

It works like this,

• Post a Document Transaction + Accounting Engine (by doctype + default accounts) = Account Posting (Dr/Cr)

Adempiere do have a seriously maintained Accounting Engine (dedicated classes separated from other models).

Given it has Accounting Engine between Document Transaction and resulting Account Posting, gives it a lot of flexibility to different business scenario. In fact, it doesn't care what Window/Model you are working on, as soon as the Document Type is chosen, and enough data supplied, it returns correct account posting.

While Odoo is using Journal, and the account_move_create() logic is right into the working model. Odoo also try to handle some complexity of business by using what we call Fiscal Position. It works in some case, but not solid nor beautiful in my opinion. Using Document Type also gives better control of the document sequence too (as per Document Type not to journal or book bank).

In a summary,

• Adempiere, once the default accounts are properly configured, we rest assured that all the Dr/Cr will be fine.
  
• Odoo, our accountant have to test and test in every business scenarios windows by windows. Cases we have to add more journal or fiscal positions or tweak the code, etc.

Account Engine is really big deal in Adempiere. All reports will rely on account moves only (which is correct). There is also no concept of deleting account move when cancelled like in Odoo (my accountant almost heart attacked on that :P). The deletion of account move make problem when running reports on against move lines, as some important data is already missing.

Moreover, in Adempiere, you can even configure system to write move lines from PO/SO commitment !!!. It may seem unnecessary as SO does not require account move, but it proof to be good for reporting purposes. For example, budget reservation from PR, PO, without it, I have to join document tables, instead of everything in account moves.

In summary of all the summary. account move lines in Adempiere is really a single source of truth. It is done the same way as SAP.

Multi-Organization, Security.

Actually, I think security in Odoo (group, rules) is more comprehensive to me, easier to configure and understand. But what I think is good about Adempeire is again, on its table structure.

In Adempiere, record level security will be based on, Client (company) and Org (department). They are role as group, and similar to Odoo. For system admin, Client = System and Org = * (means all). For users, Client = <company> and Org = * or <department>. 

In every database table, there will be 2 fields. Client_ID and Org_ID. And they are serious fields. Model can't be created without them. It also very strict on the naming convention. Only exact word "Client_ID" and "Org_ID" can be used. May2one fields must end with "_ID" only otherwise exception will be thrown, etc... there are many of them like this.

In my opinion, the strictness of table and column name is the key to stable system. In Odoo, there are good chances that people create table without "company_id". In other words, it is doubtful that extra addons are written correctly in respect of multi-company. In Adempiere, bad naming or missing of important column is just not possible.

Yes, they are very rigid, and not as flexible as Odoo. You can almost say, it is old fashioned ERP too by Odoo standard. But still, something is good in its old fashioned I think :)

Detail Oriented

Way of Coding of Adempiere is also detailed oriented. While in Odoo tends to things simple and shortcuts. For example, in Invoices, Odoo will have Tax Table that already group same taxes together in 1 line. Adempiere will keep all tax in detail. It is just example, Adempiere do things in detail oriented everywhere.

On the surface, it might seem that Adempiere is keeping too much of unused data. But I proof it very useful when I develop things like Withholding Tax (localization) on top of the detailed data with much more ease then when I try to do the same in Odoo, and still error prone.

Another things like dedicated Accounting Dimension. If you notice on the accounting field here, Adempiere prepare arbitrary dimensions to be configured as _-_-_-_

In Odoo, it is Analytic and for multi you recommend multi axis something I can't remember the name :).

But for really big project, they are not very useful. There are one project, I tried hard to use multi-analytic. But at the end, I still have to create new real dimensions as it is much needed for the real life scenarios.

----

Well those are just my opinion based on years of working with both software, by no mean expert of any. So, please feel free to correct me in any points, things are evolving fast that I couldn't catch up. :)

I hope the open comment will be useful to some. Both Adempiere/iDempiere and Odoo are best things happening to my life I can really say.

Thanks to you all you who make things happen!

Kitti U.

[Saeed Hamed]

Excellent post from Kitti U. I would like to see it in WIKI.

[Paulo Afonso Cangussu]

Hi Guys..

Thats what I was saing.

Odoo took the first step.

https://github.com/OCA/vertical-isp

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[Paulo]

Hello Guys.

We already started a project, with thinking of the ID project...
My question at this moment is...
What is the best way to have a portal like "customer service", where the customer can get invoice, open a new / follow  a support ticket, see you contact details...just like many tools in
all e-commerce do.
I know I coud integrate ID with them ( e-commerce ) ... in other hand ... there a some features in and out that should be changed.... and this make me wonder..if make a new one... is or is not a better way.
Another good point is... We think its NOT a good idea to just have a module and publicate it..in the same machine with the ERP.. for security reason... It will be another host with comunication via web-service or direct DB access.

I hope you guys can guide us in this path.

Best

--
Att.

[redhuan d. oon]

You can do it via http://localhost:8080/wstore WebsStore and SendRequest icons on the left of the opening screen when you start http://localhost:8080/
They are actually inherited all the way from Compiere days with no one looking at contributing a better one. But it works well enough and complete.

[tsenet...@gmail.com]

Hi paul im isp from italy

Im very intresting for isp module