New Manufacturing Module

[redhuan d. oon]

Anyone thinking of throwing out I mean rewriting Libero Mfg from scratch? That is to work on top of Light MFG from Adaxa. Please forward any specifications or wish list you have. The final idea is:
1. Master Production Schedule
1.1 Shopfloor plan of resources that perform certain tasks over certain time under certain condition
1.2 Production orders to the shopfloor (from Light MFG).
1.3 Production Plan simulator to allow Flexible Manufacturing
1.4 Workflow control to update Workflow process, node, transition, condition, making WF the basis of the production cycle
1.5 Update results to Light MFG
1.6 ..

[André Charles Legendre]

Hi Redhuan

That is what I started to work on with Hassen.

We plan to finish by the end of the year.
I published some technical generic basements in Kalimasystems github account.

When generic part will be finished we will start to work on light manufacturing connection.

Any help welcome.

André

[redhuan d. oon]

Yes, i know. I am just surveying what other users may feedback. Meanwhile the modern factory floor is going to be using AGV and ASRS and we will study the controller software to integrate this to a Flexible Mfg System (FMS) and a visual simulator for it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bcdeymjZZ8

[André Charles Legendre]

Hi Redhuan

Our shop-floor management will support such connections. In Lear automotive in Paris and Madrid my solution drive such systems.

I made the first connection ti ASRS in 1989 for Renault automation (it was for a huge warehouse of French railways company near Paris at that time), and this is always included in our manufacturing solution from that time.

We had already a visual graphical interface similar to a navigator. It would be nice to have first experiments with ASRS from TPM.

That is why, we include now android interface now.

Form February to now, Hassen has also worked to the first use of our solution dedicated to Peugeot and that it will be deliver to Tenneco Automotive. We are also in negotiation with the largest French logistics company (Gefco) to install it in them warehouses.

My question was, to know if your are interested to help us to connect this with light manufacturing (and by effect with iDempiere) because usually our systems was connected to SAP or QAD Mfg Pro.

As you was saying in you mail on forum. Light manufacturing would need to be extended and for this part we will need help.

With your help this work would have much more interest and much more chance of success.

André

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[redhuan d. oon]

If you can give me real use case specs of how production planning and scheduling is done it be useful. I am proposing to reuse:
1. The BOM Drop and Configurator which Hiep has help improved and working
2. The Production Plan (from Compiere) which Hengsin has improved to be normal document reversible.
3. Review integration points with Adaxa Lite, you need to read from http://www.adaxa.com/sites/default/files/HowTo%20-%20Manufacturing%20Light%20v3.pdf

[Deepak Pansheriya (Logilite.com)]

Red1,

Below need to be considered

1. Multiple BOM support

2. BOM per Org or plant support

3. Changing BOM at MO level

4. Supporting all costing methods instead of just standard

5. Allowing edition of BOM on MO

6. Providing service to work with any workflow will supported by iDempiere

7. Support to enter multiple ASI like we have recently added in iDempiere-1770

.

.

.

And Yet I am thinking what may be good to have

[redhuan d. oon]

An experienced accountant told me that Mfg does not use other than Standard Costing. The rest seems OK. Thanks!

[Carlos Collazos]

Hi red1:

Unfortunately, I know a lot of companies with complex manufacturing processes that use Average PO o Average Invoice because they also have another activities besides manufacturing. So standard costing only (in MFG)  would be somehow limiting for them. Good accountants agree with the statement that standard costing is the best for MFG but for historical o another reasons Average costing is still being used.

Hope this comment will be useful somehow.

---------------------------------
Carlos Collazos
coll...@gmail.com
----------------------------------

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[redhuan d. oon]

It is implemented in iDempiere as stated here http://www.adaxa.com/sites/default/files/HowTo%20-%20Manufacturing%20Light%20v3.pdf bottom of page 6. I will follow up on your comment with the expert accountant that i have locally also.

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[Zeeshan Hasan]

Hi Redhuan,

Purely manufacturing companies do use standard costing to give manufacturing budgets. But my experience in Bangladesh is that most companies start out with trading/importing goods. Once they have a good market, they consider manufacturing. But their accounting systems almost always still use average cost, as that is what trading companies use to keep track of inventories bought at different times at different prices.
So it would be good to have average cost (based on invoice or PO) as an option within manufacturing.

Regards,
Zeeshan

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[azzam othman]

Hi,

I think that for companies which are looking to include overhead expenses into the finished goods cost, standard costing will be better than average cost. But, for companies which consider only raw material cost in its FG cost, the average cost will better.

For my case, I tried both. Both can give reasonable accounting values.But, both has pros & cons. Standard costing will work fine if the standard cost is reviewed and updated periodically .Otherwise, costing will not proper and might lead in problems in finding the actual Profit & Loss.

Average cost will give actual online the cost of the finished goods. But you cannot include overhead expenses to get proper view for Profit & Loss.

You can find some tips here : http://www.accountingcoach.com/inventory-and-cost-of-goods-sold/explanation

 http://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/normal-costing-standard-costing

Best Regards,

Azzam

[Edwin Ang]

I think the very first attempt on Manufacturing should be on improving Bills Of Materials and Routing. 

That should be first priority. Anybody can provide a functional spec on those?

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[Deepak Pansheriya (Logilite.com)]

Red1,

Now many comments supporting avg PO cost before I answer you. We have recent implementation using Libero and average PO costing. Please note that Libero is designed to support only standard costing and so face lots of unexpected problem. Accountant do not agree to use standard cost and we have to customize. So it is better to keep in consideration in our new design.

[Deepak Pansheriya (Logilite.com)]

Edwin,

I discuss importance of Multi BOM with red1 and decided to work on spec for same. Do you want to get involved?

We can schedule some time to discuss as per your and my availability.

[redhuan d. oon]

I agree with Edwin doing it in parts and separation of concern. The standard costing is not going anywhere and should be tackled at Adaxa's piece in the stack. Also after talking with Andre and Deepak, we can look at fit example if the multi BOM schema can drop in and having a job scheduler but as a standalone app which I propose to write in Jakarta Velocity upon MySQL, which picks the Production Orders from Adaxa, and writes back when done.
Reason for standalone been of lighter framework, easier handling, 24X7 for shopfloor environment. I can write a developer guide on using Velocity in it as I used it before and find it simple POJOs driven with versatile JSP UI manipulation. WDYT?

[Hiep Lq]

for logic of business, i'm not good. but in GUI or something else i can help. please count me for help.

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[redhuan d. oon]

Thank you Hiep. We are still gathering input from real world experts. Andre Legendre just sent me more definition first, which i paste below for more peer comment (for your info Andre works in France and have been actively working with shopfloor shopfloor since the 80s. It was his original idea that gave impetus to Libero Mfg but he considered the following principle as forgotten:
"Job scheduling is part of ShopFloor.

Job scheduling is the interface between machines and ERP, machines ad flow is very different depending on each installation. It organize flow of data between ERP and machines and /or men.

This flow is very different between two plants and is very different between two warehouse.

They keys are :

1. To have some standard interface (like connectors) between ERP side (light manufacturing in our case) and Shop Floor management (including job scheduling)
2. To have a very sophisticated personalisation system with very robust and fast generic layer (see CIM-OSA model) (where kalimacache and JSPlugin are key elements)
3. To have some standard interface to machines (Asrs, agv, plc, manufacturing machines etc...)
4. To have strong human interface (User interface including web base interface and mobile interface) that can be adapted to each plant in short time (graphical user interface, with 3D eventualy)
   To have strong data collection and traceability management with standard interface to enable statistical software, search engines, reporting etc... to use data to optimize process and to help management to manage business efficiency."

[redhuan d. oon]

Here is input from Steven Sackett of Adaxa, Australia. Steven is a qualified accountant and has provided many subject matter contributions since Compiere days:

Few of us have added stuff to Mfg Light probably since ML was merged into Idempiere .. u should probably get whatever changes were made..  I will have to find the details in a few days.
Adempiere 380 has moved away from the Jorg BOM tables to the Victor BOM tables .. adaxa found there was a big demand for a single product having multiple BOMs so we were please about that change being done by others for us.  I would think u would want to add same.

Also we outsourced to do some work on a simple form of MRP2 so we could time-phased ordering  .. but I am not up-to-date on where that is at .. last I heard was that it was about 75% done and we had authorised to pass the code on to Idempiere.

We also had a system for splitting work orders so that the original order may be for 100 but you could hit the month end and say I have completed 50 and it would backflush that and create a new linked work order for the balance.

One thing we did not do but which I would add .. create a WIP locator in the warehouse, create an option so that when a Work Order was created and lines were added then also create an Inventory Move doc to move the products from the raw material store to the WIP locator ... this makes stocktaking easier coz otherwise the RW store is not decremented till u backflush .. and if you have long running work orders then you get stocktake confusion.

We also have nearly finished a complete rebuild of reservations and we want it to do reservations for production also .. not sure where that is... its all linked to hard allocation of product against SO.

The other thing you might want to look at is the work we did on adding 'seasonality' to replenishment. 
explained here http://www.adaxa.com/sites/default/files/Case%20Study%20-%20Complex%20Open%20Source%20Distribution%20System.pdf ... see section 8.6

Also have you ever looked at Pauls XML migration because others in Adempiere seem to think it was a good improvement and I think all changes are now gonna use it .. but that is technical so I avoid that stuff.

[redhuan d. oon]

Here is Steven quick response when i asked him just now via email about clarification from the accounting practice about Average vs Std Costing in MFG:

Average cost and Standard cost? not sure how we would handle average cost unless you adopted costing level of 'batch and lot' ... then changed the calculation of manufacturing variances so they disappeared and got added into product cost instead. 

Assume we have product A1 with a BOM consisting of Prod A2 and prod A3
we made/purchased prod A2 over a number of months and we have instances that cost us $10, $15 and $20
we purchased all the prod A3 at same time for $10
we have a single Production Order to make 10 product A1, 
we now have 3 Product A1 which cost us $20,  3 which cost us $25 and 4 which cost us $30.

Product B1 has a BOM of 1 x product A1 and 1 x Product A4.
We had a Production Order for Product A4 last month and found the same varying cost outcome as for product A1 above so we have A4 items in stock costed at $40, $50 and $60.

.... now what do we want to do?
when some one asks 'what does an 'B1' cost what would we tell them?

There is a good reason why Std Cost was adopted for manufacturing...

[redhuan d. oon]

Andre just responded again after i posed to him the need to separate concerns due to the complex domain of subject matter:

Hi Redhuan

The key element of success of a good scheduling and then shop floor management and warehouse management is a soft link between it and the ERP.

On side of ERP, Steve and Martin know very well the need and the problems, so them input is important.

It is important not to mixte both sides, because on the job scheduling, FMS and WMS side it need to be highly adapted for each installation. And this must be done in fact, economical and robust way.

This is not possible if you mixte both (like in libero) you need to have flexible connection and on the job scheduling, FMS/WMS side to be organised with layer, going from generic to particular.

The generic is form all,particular is for a specific plant of a specific company in a specific business area.

You cannot have the same systems in a plant to do beers, cosmetics, cars, military devices, electronic devices etc...

But you cannot have to develop everything from scratch every time. So you must be able to highly adapt without risk to introduce bugs in the core system.

On other axe the system needs to be evolutif, to enable permanent improvement. In some electronics plants like mobile phone, they have new models every 3 months. They cannot redesign the software each time.

Then we must separte resource management of other (reason why you have 3 axles in CIM-OSA cube.

Implement such a think is complex, but KalimaCache and JSPlugin connected with, java, android, J2EE and existing iDempiere including OSGI, make it possible for us.

We just need to work together to add all our experiences and we will succeed. (I am already at the 3d generation of such system. the last one is intended to be connected to your work)

André

[Heng Sin Low]

Another option is to use std cost for finished goods and kits that you produce and use average costing for raw material that you purchase.

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[redhuan d. oon]

Yes, it becomes apparent that Mfg costing is a sub-set accounting akin to an internal vendor that determines its product prices.

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[redhuan d. oon]

From Andre,

Hi Redhuan

I read more deeply Steven e_mail.

I agree with Steve point of view.

About work in progress locator, this is include in my side, user can see, from web, mobile and/or tablet where is any work (or delivery) in progress.

We can send (look at interface proposal) information about good consuption so you can update inventory in real time.

We also send information when a product is done, where it goes : to warehouse or to some truck loading.

We have some module to know (for just in time delivery) what is the stock in client warehouse, in truck to be deliver, and ready to be loaded. This infortions can be display on LED panels, on web and/or on tablets.

In the wms side, it will be a graphical 3D vison of what parts are in each warehouse location. Warehouses can have asrs and avg connected to our system so avg and asrs can get the next place where to load and unload some parts.

André