Hexagram 7, line 2, to 23

[anastyla]

Hi.
I hope this group is still online and well.
I receive hexagram 7, line 2, in reply to my question regarding the outcome of a recent trial. Line 2 seems favorable. Still the next hexagram, 23, SPLITTING Apart, is very bad: "Po indicates that in the state which it symbolizes it will not be advantageous to make a movement in any direction whatever." Legge translation.

Any idea?
Thanks.

[Taopage.Org]

You forgot to read line 6 as part of oracle's response. It reads: "The topmost line, divided, shows the great ruler delivering his charges. Appointing some to be rulers of states, and others to undertake the headship of clans; but small men should not be employed in such positions."
Line 2 is about success. Line 6 advises to keep petty people at distance, not to employ them.
Hexagram 23 is about petty (yin lines) rejecting you (yang line on top).

[anastyla]

I did but didn't mention it because I don't know what petty people represent in context.

[Evandro Vianna]

I have been using the I Ching for 20 years or so, and I am convinced that he will not tell you the future like that because there is no such thing as fate or destiny. The Tao is a path to walk, not a destination. In taoism the future is open and we change it with every single action. The Tao is the utmost truth. Fortune tellers are liers. So the oracle must be understood differently. It will tell you where forces are acting and what tends to happen in each pattern of ying-yang combinations. You can't get any better than this as future anticipation in the real world.

So it just says that you will change from a situation where you're internally moved by your hopes and desires (2nd line yang) but unable to act externally, to one where you will just  have to comply with a decision, with no power within you (only the 6th line yang).

The meaning of the change in the 2nd and 6th lines can give you some extra clues though. Opening the 2nd means considering other people's feelings and desires too, hence the good fortune. It suggest making a deal so that everyone involved gets something. It leads to acceptance. The 6th line going yang means taking decision upon what's happening, but based on your own motivations. It leads to youthful folly in a sense that deciding upon emotional background might be dangerous, but if you do it right this is just something to be aware of. But in both cases you'll have to accept the results, externally before, internally afterwards. 

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[Taopage.Org]

I use I ching since almost 45 years and I know what is good for. Since its incipit it was made to inquire into the future. Meaning it is a divination tool.
So I suggest you read Wilhelm's as well as Legge's, Jung's and the new generation of scholars and learn.
Richard Rutt provides many examples of divination from the ancient Chinese high class people.

[Evandro Vianna]

Well I was trying to help Anastyla, not creating a dispute. I am a skeptical, and yet I think I Ching is a formidable psychological tool. But I don't believe I'll convince you of any of my views, if you deal with it your way for 45 years...

Besides it's certainly heresy to you if I say I've read both and I think both fail to grasp the meaning of taoism. Wilhelm's commentaries are full of 19th century occidental moralism. Even Confucius has distorted its meaning through his own views. I recommend you to read Chuang Tzu, the second taoist master. The way he made fun of Confucius is hilarious.

Anyway I'm sorry you see it just as a divination tool, in this pitiful way divination is understood today, just like tarot etc. It is much more than that, it's the whole of human interactions within himself and the world around, divided in its basic elements. Understanding these basic elements and what each combination and change implies is what's it's all about. The oracle is just a method for a growth mindset by adding new perspectives. And it's quite a lot, much more useful and effective than modern psychology as a whole.

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[Taopage.Org]

I didn't mean the morals nor Confucius who is far from Taoism and I book. I suggested these books to make you understand the main function of I as book of divination. I'll quote a passage from Richard Rutt to prove it.
In the history of the I, King Wen has a central place. He, too, used the book as divinatory tool.
You said pitiful divination. Yes. But divination. Everything in I is divination. But you don't understand what divination means and its function in the old Chinese civilisation. Everything started and ended through divination.
Please wait for the quote.

Sarah

[Evandro Vianna]

You think I don´t understand, I think the opposite. It´s normal. But I'm glad you see the value of the original texts, not the commentaries (at least most of them) that came afterwards.

But if you believe the tao as a path to walk, the I will show and bring meaning to different paths you can tread, instead of just the ones you are used to or can think of. If you choose, you can walk, or avoid, the path that is shown. And the wise of the I Ching is to understand what's likely to happen in each dynamic chosen or change achieved. It enlightens a lot your walk of life. But if you understand divination in a context that your path is predefined as fate, like many other traditions (that came later and influenced us) do, then your understanding of the tao is as narrow as you make it in you mind: a fate to be fulfilled, a path you can't escape from, a Tao already created by something never conceived by taoism itself.

We have to strip ourselves from religion's omnipotence and omnicontrol, which is very deeply embedded in our culture, to understand what is to foretell what is bound to happen unless you change your path, and future changes with it. As it happens in the physical world. Understanding what Nietzsche meant by God is dead helps a lot. Existentialism, existence preceding essence, is much closer to taoism than any religion or esoteric belief. Yin and Yang continually create all there is. Understanding them helps you foresee where things might lead to, if you experience yin and yang forces within you the same way showed by the oracle. Unless things change. And it does, all the time. Sorry, no comfort there. I understand if you don'l like my views.

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[Taopage.Org]

You may think the opposite, I don't mind.
But here we discuss about divination. There's nothing about thinking. Just divination.

[Evandro Vianna]

It's all about what we THINK divination MEANS.

And I've tested it in things like the outcome of trials. It's answers were clearly not tailored for that. It's usually ambiguous. But I've been given precious advice on alternative paths to tread, allowing me to use bad omens as an alert of what to avoid, and change it into nice achievements, in ways I would never have thought of. It helps me walk the path in harmony with the Tao. It's a much richer experience than just believing I'm having a peek on what's inevitably coming on.

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[anastyla]

Hi.
Can you give an example to help me understand what precious advice you've been given instead of a direct answer we all receive?
And how the advice helped you walked the path of harmony with the Tao?
Do you believe in Tao as God?
Anyway, how do you know what harmony is in this respect?

Thanks

[Evandro Vianna]

It happens when you put yourself energetically yin or yang in the same positions. The lower trigram is your internal conscience, the upper relates to the external world. When you understand the 8 trigrams internally and externally then you understand why the names and the commentaries are what they are, and you start seeing your situation accordingly. That's when you have new insights and attitudes. 

The texts just help you get this bigger picture, you mustn't associate words individually to anything. That's why the Tao we talk about is not the real Tao. It can't be grasped just by thought, it must be lived by you physical, emotional and mental bodies as a whole. That's what the 3 positions mean. Kind of, there's more to it than these words mean. There always is.

Do you know a song by Suzanne Vega called Language? 

I won't use words again
They don't mean what I meant
They don't say what I said
They're just the crust of the meaning
With realms underneath
Never touched
Never stirred
Never even moved through

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