Update from JavaOne on the status of VAJ and WebSphere Studio Workbench

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Eric Rizzo

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Jun 13, 2001, 5:38:06 PM6/13/01
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Fellow VAJers:
We know that there has been much confusion surrounding the status and future of
VisualAge for Java and the new technology IBM announced recently named WebSphere
Studio Workbench. Luckily, we were both able at JavaOne last week to spend
some time talking with IBM representatives at the booth and in a somewhat
intimate BOF session (where the marketing and product manager for the VAJ
product line was speaking and taking questions), as well as chatting with some
non-IBM people who are are privy to a lot of information that the general
community is not (IBM partners, basically). In the interest of helping the VAJ
user community, here is a summary of the info we found, followed by some
commentary/editorial from our perspectives:

The WebSphere Studio Workbench (WSW) is not a development tool or product, per
se, but a "tool builder's platform" (IBM's words). It is a framework and set
of fundamental services into which any tool builder (including IBM) will plug
in a specific tool, such as a code browser/editor, an HTML authoring tool, an
EJB development environment, a developer version of an app server, etc. Users
will be able to configure WSW with a "perspective" of just the tools they need,
instead of being forced to load a whole, bloated suite of dev tools they aren't
using.
IBM is building this workbench/platform/tool-builder's tool, implemented almost
entirely in Java, and will subsequently open-source it, including the small
portion that is platform specific C/C++ code (about 1% of the code, according to
IBM), once the initial version is out and running on Windoze (IBM stated that
Linux will be the first alternate platform that they will port it to).

The first tools that will sit on top of this platform will be application
developer and web developer "IDE's", developed by IBM. As best as we can tell,
these are tools similar in nature to VAJ and WebSphere Studio (although the
exact level of VAJ feature support available in the first version is not
clear). One of the fundamental features of these tools will be support for
different JDKs on a per-project basis. It is clear, however, that nobody,
including IBM, is saying these early tools on WSW will be able to replace VAJ.
It appears that WSW will be a file-based platform, although there is some
confusion as to whether or not the code storage mechanism is also pluggable - if
it were, it could be adapted to a database format such as ENVY (the VAJ
repository). But some architecture diagrams presented by IBM suggest this will
not be possible.
IBM will be bundling WSW and these "IDE" tools in beta form with the VAJ 4.0
Enterprise Edition package. When the 1.0 version of WSW is released, VAJ 4.x
will be bundled with that (IBM stated that WSW is planned for release sometime
in 2001, probably 4Q, but "plans do sometimes change"). IBM made it very clear
upon questioning that there is no current way for VAJ Professional or Entry
users to gain access to WSW, even as VADD subscribers, without purchasing VAJ
4.0 Enterprise when it is made available end of July. The IBM "PartnerWorld for
Developers" site indicates that some members can download a preview of the WSW
platform, but this has not been confirmed.

Those are the facts, now here is our take on the situation:
VAJ 4.0 will not be significantly different from v3.5.3. IBM may just be
releasing VAJ 4.0 to keep in synch with the WebSphere version number.
The product/marketing manager stated that "VAJ will continue to exist as a
product for at least two years." This means that VAJ as we know it will
continue to be supported, but it is unknown whether new features or even new JDK
levels would be added. In fact, the IBM representatives showed a lack of touch
with the community by asking at the BOF session how many people in the room
actually needed/wanted JDK 1.3 support in VAJ. It seems baffling that IBM could
be so out of touch with the needs of the users, but the IBMers reaction
suggested as much. Our only guess as to how this could happen is that IBM was
judging JDK 1.3 need from newsgroup posts and the feature request database. We
see one or two JDK 1.3 posts per week, which is barely noise overall. Of
course, most of us are savvy enough not to add hundreds of "me too!" responses.
We are planning a strategy for informing IBM exactly how much need/desire there
is (more below).

It is quite clear that IBM has not yet made up its mind about continuing to
evolve VAJ separate from WSW. It also seems quite clear to us that if IBM hopes
to migrate the existing VAJ user base to WSW eventually, they had better take
care of the current needs of the VAJ community (namely, further JDK support and
continued VAJ feature development) lest they have no user base left to migrate
in the future.

So how can we get the message to IBM?
A couple of years ago, a petition was organized by Scott that gained nearly 1000
online signatures in support of a Linux version of VAJ. Scott presented that
petition to IBM and soon afterward we saw VAJ for Linux (although they have yet
to produce a Java 2 version of it). IBM's reaction to that petition was very
similar to the reaction we saw last week at the BOF with regard to JDK 1.3. So,
based on that experience and our observation that perhaps the VAJ decision
makers aren't quite aware of the community's overwhelming need for JDK 1.3
support (and beyond), we will be starting a similar petition in support of
bringing continuing JDK evolution in the VAJ product, despite what WSW is
offering. We urge anyone who is interested in the topic enough to have read
this far to look for our announcement of the petition in the coming days and
sign their name to it. And to get co-workers to do the same. We also urge you
to find who in your company handles the relationship and/or purchases with IBM
and put pressure on them to indicate your desire for the continued evolution of
VAJ (including JDK 1.3 support) until WSW is mature enough to really be useful.
It seems to us that IBM has not yet made any final decisions as to the future of
VAJ, so we need to send the message to IBM, or we risk having the tools we use
atrophy into oblivion (can anyone say "OS/2"?)

--
Eric Rizzo
Scott Stanchfield

Tom Almy

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Jun 13, 2001, 6:20:42 PM6/13/01
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Eric Rizzo wrote:
> IBM made it very clear
> upon questioning that there is no current way for VAJ Professional or Entry
> users to gain access to WSW, even as VADD subscribers, without purchasing VAJ
> 4.0 Enterprise when it is made available end of July.

OK, this adds to the FUD pile. WSW will be an Enterprise level product only? Will
Pro level products (VAJ Pro) be phased out? Not that I matter much to IBMs revenue
stream, but there are no Enterprise level features I need and there is no way
I could justify several thou for this purchase.

--
--------
Tom Almy
Fluence Technology Incorporated
8700 SW Creekside Place
Beaverton, OR 97008
(503) 672-8721

Kevin J. Grittner

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Jun 13, 2001, 7:03:47 PM6/13/01
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I've got a few questions and comments. I'm responding to portions of
this message, with some rearrangement of blocks of text for reasons
which I hope are obvious.

Eric Rizzo wrote:
>
> IBM is building this workbench/platform/tool-builder's tool, implemented almost
> entirely in Java, and will subsequently open-source it, including the small
> portion that is platform specific C/C++ code (about 1% of the code, according to
> IBM)

> . . .


> IBM made it very clear
> upon questioning that there is no current way for VAJ Professional or Entry
> users to gain access to WSW, even as VADD subscribers, without purchasing VAJ
> 4.0 Enterprise when it is made available end of July.

So (obviously) it will not be open source at that point. Any time frame
given or hinted for opening the source?

> . . . once the initial version is out and running on Windoze (IBM stated that


> Linux will be the first alternate platform that they will port it to).

> . . .


> A couple of years ago, a petition was organized by Scott that gained nearly 1000
> online signatures in support of a Linux version of VAJ. Scott presented that
> petition to IBM and soon afterward we saw VAJ for Linux (although they have yet
> to produce a Java 2 version of it).

I have to say that I signed that petition, and have been very
disappointed in IBM's response. The release was obsolete by the time it
came out because of the JDK level. I've been waiting for a Java2
version so that I can place my order. I imagine that the sales of the
Linux versions would have been several times higher had they kept pace
with the JDK levels available in the Windows version. And trust me, not
everybody went and bought the Windows version instead. Linux can't lag
again or they will lose a big block of customers.

> The first tools that will sit on top of this platform will be application
> developer and web developer "IDE's", developed by IBM. As best as we can tell,
> these are tools similar in nature to VAJ and WebSphere Studio (although the
> exact level of VAJ feature support available in the first version is not
> clear).

Any info available yet on timelines or prices for these? Any info on
features?

> One of the fundamental features of these tools will be support for
> different JDKs on a per-project basis. It is clear, however, that nobody,
> including IBM, is saying these early tools on WSW will be able to replace VAJ.
> It appears that WSW will be a file-based platform, although there is some
> confusion as to whether or not the code storage mechanism is also pluggable - if
> it were, it could be adapted to a database format such as ENVY (the VAJ
> repository). But some architecture diagrams presented by IBM suggest this will
> not be possible.

Any more info on what kind of system will be backing this for the
ability to compare and replace versions of classes or methods? Can we
at least count on decent hooks for better interface to CVS?

> IBM representatives showed a lack of touch
> with the community by asking at the BOF session how many people in the room
> actually needed/wanted JDK 1.3 support in VAJ.

The sound of all those jaws dropping in unison must have been deafening.

> It seems baffling that IBM could
> be so out of touch with the needs of the users, but the IBMers reaction
> suggested as much. Our only guess as to how this could happen is that IBM was
> judging JDK 1.3 need from newsgroup posts and the feature request database. We
> see one or two JDK 1.3 posts per week, which is barely noise overall. Of
> course, most of us are savvy enough not to add hundreds of "me too!" responses.

Seems like the best guess. But, don't they have focus groups or
anything to find out this sort of thing??? It seems amazing to me that
they could be so out of touch with their customer base.

> It is quite clear that IBM has not yet made up its mind about continuing to
> evolve VAJ separate from WSW. It also seems quite clear to us that if IBM hopes
> to migrate the existing VAJ user base to WSW eventually, they had better take
> care of the current needs of the VAJ community (namely, further JDK support and
> continued VAJ feature development) lest they have no user base left to migrate
> in the future.

If VAJ doesn't catch up soon, they will certainly lose business.

> IBM's reaction to that petition was very
> similar to the reaction we saw last week at the BOF with regard to JDK 1.3. So,
> based on that experience and our observation that perhaps the VAJ decision
> makers aren't quite aware of the community's overwhelming need for JDK 1.3
> support (and beyond),

Beyond is right -- we're drooling over the improvements in the printing
area for JDK 1.4. IBM will probably lose a lot of customers who need to
deal with networked printers for serious reporting, check and receipt
printing, etc. if they don't have support for JDK 1.4 soon.

> we will be starting a similar petition in support of
> bringing continuing JDK evolution in the VAJ product, despite what WSW is
> offering. We urge anyone who is interested in the topic enough to have read
> this far to look for our announcement of the petition in the coming days and
> sign their name to it. And to get co-workers to do the same. We also urge you
> to find who in your company handles the relationship and/or purchases with IBM
> and put pressure on them to indicate your desire for the continued evolution of
> VAJ (including JDK 1.3 support) until WSW is mature enough to really be useful.
> It seems to us that IBM has not yet made any final decisions as to the future of
> VAJ, so we need to send the message to IBM, or we risk having the tools we use
> atrophy into oblivion (can anyone say "OS/2"?)

Actually, they seem to have already put their VAJ customers in a more
uncomfortable position than their OS/2 customers. They need to reassure
us that VAJ will have decent support until such time as WSW is mature
and ready for serious work. They need to have everything ready. In the
meantime, they can't be wishy-washy about this or they will lose people
in droves. Next year's Readers' Choice awards could look very
different.

> --
> Eric Rizzo
> Scott Stanchfield

Those are a couple names that ought to get IBM's attention. I look
forward to your petition. Count on my signature. In the meantime, I'd
sure appreciate any clarification of the questions above. (Well at
least the non-retorical ones.)

-Kevin Grittner

Eric Clayberg

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Jun 13, 2001, 8:41:10 PM6/13/01
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"Tom Almy" <to...@fluence.com> wrote in message
news:3B27E73A...@fluence.com...

>
> OK, this adds to the FUD pile. WSW will be an Enterprise level product
only?

No...although the initial beta may only be available to Enterprise
customers. Ultimately, the WSW platform is meant to be free and open source.
IBM will charge for various tools that sit on top of it.

-Eric


Johan Compagner

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Jun 14, 2001, 3:32:35 AM6/14/01
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Where can i sign?

But i just want to add one thing that IBM MUST do (or MUST NOT do)
IBM shouldn't put any resources to develop a VAJ with JDK1.3 support

If you ask me at this time do you need 1.3 in VAJ then then my anwser is NO.

If you ask me do you need 1.4 then the anwser is YES as soon as possible
i even like a beta of VAJ with 1.4 support even before JDK1.4 itself is released
(let's say it's in the Release Candidate time frame)

1.3 is just a very minor upgrade of 1.2. Mostly pure performance/bug fixes ofcourse there are
a couple of things that would be great to have if you really need that speficiek features (like Robot)

For me the new NIO package changes that. This is wat i am waiting for.
And with GUI development the new components like spinner and not forget the formattedtextfield
are a few of the goodies that i will need.

If VAJ doesn't catch up in time for with 1.4. And WSW is not there for me (i don't think i am going
to buy VAJ EE 4.0) or WSW doesn't have the right feeling/feature level, it is just another file based ide.
Who is going to stop me for looking to alternative.
At this time i don't know which one because they all suck big time.

Johan Compagner


"Eric Rizzo" <eric....@trcinc.com> wrote in message news:9g8mq3$14kc$1...@news.boulder.ibm.com...

paulw...@netscape.net

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Jun 14, 2001, 3:51:02 AM6/14/01
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I just thought I'd add my voice to this posting.


It appears to me that with WSW, IBM are attempting to address some of the major
shortcomings of VAJ (e.g. lack of pluggable JDK support, non-pure Java implementation)
and positioning themselves for the future... Does anyone know what JDK level the
initial release of WSW supports??

All well and good - but as the people before me have pointed out, for this migration
to take place successfully VAJ HAS to support the latest standards to keep the VAJ
community on side.

Personally, I'm VERY disappointed that VAJ 4.0 won't be supporting JDK 1.3
(particularly with JDK 1.4 being round the corner). When I read the original press
release material for WAS 4.0 I was convinced that I saw JDK 1.3 support and assumed
that VAJ 4.0 would be doing the same to keep the two in sync. When I examined the
press release again I could find no trace of this - WAS I IMAGINING THIS??

As an ex-IBMer who cut my Java teeth on VAJ 2.0 I had a hard time convincing
colleagues at my present employer that VAJ should be adopted as the standard tool over
JBuilder. As time goes by and VAJ remains entrenched in JDK 1.2.2 it is becoming
increasingly difficult to convince even myself that I made the right decision.

I will certainly add my name to your petition, but will history repeat itself in that
VAJ will eventually be upgraded to JDK 1.3 when other tools will undoubtedly be
supporting JDK 1.4?

IBM are positioning themselves in the right direction, but I share the concerns of the
earlier postings in that if IBM aren't careful they are unlikely to have a VAJ user
base to migrate to WSW.

Customers need to be handled with respect, particularly in the J2EE marketplace where
best of breed tools are promoted.

User need shouldn't just be based on the contents of a feature request database.
Surely IBM prefer using common sense rather than having the feature request database
bombarded with something that should be obvious?? IS THIS A CUE FOR THE VAJ COMMUNITY
TO START BOMBARDING THE FEATURE REQUEST DATABASE TO MAKE IBM LISTEN??

Stretched loyalty snaps eventually.....................

Paul Wadmore

Mike Upton

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Jun 14, 2001, 11:29:15 PM6/14/01
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Thanks Eric for that summary. It was exactly as I understood the BOF information.
See my response to the previous thread on "Light at end of tunnel" where I mention our
development group's position if we do not get some IBM direction on the JRE support.
Without 1.4 support, we will abandon VAJ in favour of Visual Cafe since we use
Weblogic.

So instead of looking at introducing Websphere in our environment to complement VAJ,
we will look at Visual Cafe to complement Weblogic, as much I do not like this
approach. At least our developers will be able to debug JSPs and servlets in Visual
Cafe rather than system.out.printlns. Btw, BEA indicated if VAJ supported 1.3, this
would be possible with the Weblogic/VAJ integration kit.

Mike

Don Brady

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Jun 15, 2001, 12:04:11 AM6/15/01
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:29:15 -0400, Mike Upton <mikeu...@home.com>
wrote:

>Thanks Eric for that summary. It was exactly as I understood the BOF information.
>See my response to the previous thread on "Light at end of tunnel" where I mention our
>development group's position if we do not get some IBM direction on the JRE support.
>Without 1.4 support, we will abandon VAJ in favour of Visual Cafe since we use
>Weblogic.

It makes no sense that WSW would be Enterprise Edition only and I
doubt that.

Dave Ings

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Jun 15, 2001, 1:13:15 AM6/15/01
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Indeed it's not!

WSW, the WebSphere Studio Workbench, is not bundled with VAJ, see the
announcements and FAQ.

WSAD, WebSphere Studio Application Developer, a product based on the WSW
platform, is bundled with VAJ Enterprise. (At least the WSAD beta is.) The
makes sense when you consider that WSAD is, as per the FAQ, a combination of
VAJ Enterprise function and WebSphere Studio function.

The FAQ is at http://www7.software.ibm.com/vad.nsf/data/document2020
--
Regards, Dave Ings,
Product Manager,
VisualAge for Java


"Don Brady" <dbr...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:zIgpOzL53J0yIZ...@4ax.com...

Eric Rizzo

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Jun 15, 2001, 10:12:12 AM6/15/01
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Dave Ings wrote:
>
> Indeed it's not!
>
> WSW, the WebSphere Studio Workbench, is not bundled with VAJ, see the
> announcements and FAQ.
>
> WSAD, WebSphere Studio Application Developer, a product based on the WSW
> platform, is bundled with VAJ Enterprise. (At least the WSAD beta is.) The
> makes sense when you consider that WSAD is, as per the FAQ, a combination of
> VAJ Enterprise function and WebSphere Studio function.

That's a bit of a nit-pick, IMO. Since WSAD is "based on the WSW platform" and
will be included with VAJ 4.0, then how is it much different to say that WSW is
included with VAJ 4.0?
In any case, the fact still remains that us Pro users don't currently have any
way to get WSAD/WSW with our VAJ 4.0 upgrades. IBM needs to see that they are
alienating users by not stating outright plans to keep our tool up to date and
at the same time not giving us a chance to evaluate the new tools. We, as
users, are handcuffed - who's the customer here?!

Eric
--
Eric Nicholas Rizzo
eric....@trcinc.com
The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
http://www.trcinc.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
I embrace my personality flaws, for without them I might not
have any personality at all.

Chuck Davis

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Jun 15, 2001, 7:29:03 AM6/15/01
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Dave Ings wrote:

Respectfully, it doesn't make sense to me. Since I don't run windows in my
shop I will not be purchasing VAJ. But if WSAD runs on Linux I want it.
How do I get it?

Chuck Davis

> Indeed it's not!

Kevin J. Grittner

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Jun 15, 2001, 10:30:28 AM6/15/01
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Will the initial release of WSW be publicly available?

-Kevin

Eric Rizzo

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Jun 15, 2001, 11:24:06 AM6/15/01
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paulw...@netscape.net wrote:
>
[snip]

> Surely IBM prefer using common sense rather than having the feature request
> database bombarded with something that should be obvious?? IS THIS A CUE FOR
> THE VAJ COMMUNITY TO START BOMBARDING THE FEATURE REQUEST DATABASE TO MAKE
> IBM LISTEN??

Not a bad idea. I encourage everyone to go to the VAJ Feature Request Database
and vote for requests #425 and #789. The FRDB can be found at
http://www7.software.ibm.com/vad.nsf/Data/Document3522
and the above two features specifically at
http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=425
and
http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=789

Chris

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Jun 15, 2001, 11:49:09 AM6/15/01
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Eric,
you should be able to get the open source version instead

Chris

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Jun 15, 2001, 11:53:47 AM6/15/01
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Kevin,

"Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:

>
> So (obviously) it will not be open source at that point. Any time frame
> given or hinted for opening the source?
>

Websphere Studio Workbench is an IBM technology, which we will support. We will also
provide the open source version. Like Xerces and XML4J or Apache and IBM Http Server..

Kevin J. Grittner

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Jun 15, 2001, 12:50:53 PM6/15/01
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Chris,

Thanks for the response. Does this mean that the open source version
will go by a name other than Websphere Studio Workbench? If so, can you
tell me what that name will be?

Also, I am still unclear when either will be publicly available.

-Kevin

Eric Rizzo

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Jun 15, 2001, 3:57:20 PM6/15/01
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Chris wrote:
>
> Eric,
> you should be able to get the open source version instead

Just the WSW platform, or would that include something like the WSAD that Dave
Ings talked about? In other words: Will I, as a VAJ Pro user, have some tool,
similar to VAJ but built on WSW, to try when this whole WSW goes full release?

Thanks, as usual, Chris for your responses,

David Rees

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Jun 18, 2001, 1:37:29 PM6/18/01
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:32:35 +0200, "Johan Compagner"
<jcomp...@j-com.nl> wrote:

...


>
>1.3 is just a very minor upgrade of 1.2. Mostly pure performance/bug fixes ofcourse there are
>a couple of things that would be great to have if you really need that speficiek features (like Robot)
>

It all depends on what you want to do. 1.3 adds dynamic proxies which
finally allow Java to support lots of interesting patterns without
generating tons of classes. Also, 1.3 is needed for a variety of J2EE
tools like the 2.0 reference and WebLogic.

dave

David Rees

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Jun 18, 2001, 1:49:54 PM6/18/01
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:24:06 -0400, Eric Rizzo <eric....@trcinc.com>
wrote:

>paulw...@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> Surely IBM prefer using common sense rather than having the feature request
>> database bombarded with something that should be obvious?? IS THIS A CUE FOR
>> THE VAJ COMMUNITY TO START BOMBARDING THE FEATURE REQUEST DATABASE TO MAKE
>> IBM LISTEN??
>
>Not a bad idea. I encourage everyone to go to the VAJ Feature Request Database
>and vote for requests #425 and #789. The FRDB can be found at
>http://www7.software.ibm.com/vad.nsf/Data/Document3522
>and the above two features specifically at
>http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=425
>and
>http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=789
>
>


There also is feature #18
http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=18 (
which has way more votes than #789.
And also #538
http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/servlet/reqServlet3?feature=538
which has 55 votes.

One problem I see is that all of the various JDK requests are taking
votes from each other. It gets worse when you add the Linux camps
request for JDK upgrades for the Linux platform (you guys sure know
how to vote ;).

If you add up all of the "newer or better JDK support" features:

#010 - 113
#018 - 239
#538 - 055
#482 - 043
#425 - 103
#395 - 008
#737 - 033
#789 - 023

617 votes! That is twice the lead feature (which is the OS/2 and Linux
guys ganging up).

While each is slightly different, the main thrust is the same -
support for the newer JDKs. #18 suggests support for older JDKs as
well, but I am guessing that most of the voters would be happy with
just faster JDK updates (aka #789).

So how do we clean these up?

d

Kevin Hollenshead

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Jun 18, 2001, 2:50:04 PM6/18/01
to
I'll throw my $0.02 in here from a large customer perspective, since I represent around 500 active VAJ users within my company.

Eric Rizzo wrote:

> ...


> In fact, the IBM representatives showed a lack of touch
> with the community by asking at the BOF session how many people in the room
> actually needed/wanted JDK 1.3 support in VAJ. It seems baffling that IBM could
> be so out of touch with the needs of the users, but the IBMers reaction
> suggested as much. Our only guess as to how this could happen is that IBM was
> judging JDK 1.3 need from newsgroup posts and the feature request database. We
> see one or two JDK 1.3 posts per week, which is barely noise overall.

> ...

In our environment with a large number of developers building applications using a common set of frameworks, we don't *need* JDK 1.3. We develop under VAJ 3.5 (JDK 1.2.2) and deploy under JDK 1.3. We used to have something similar with VAJ 3.0 (develop
in 1.1.7 and deploy on 1.2). In order to keep ourselves sane, I don't *want* every other developer going out there are using JDK 1.3 specific features. For what we do (EJB/servlet/JSP development primarily), there are always alternative ways to do the
things we need to do. That being said, having 1.3 support would be very helpful, just not critical. I've had discussions at this level with IBM development before and I think it is a message they have heard from more than just us.

When it takes me 5 hours to load all my code into VAJ from ENVY and we have people crashing on a daily basis losing $$$ because of lost productivity, I'm pushing for stability, speed and completeness, not new features. While I personally want the latest
and greatest, my co-workers and my company don't need them to get their jobs done. It is just a different perspective on the problem. Eventually, we'll migrate to the new features as they become available but we're largely constrained anyway by what some
of the 3rd party toolsets we use require/support. We're just not bleeding edge on every new J2EE extension or JDK release.

Kevin Hollenshead
Sprint
Jabber: texas...@jabber.org


Chris

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Jun 20, 2001, 10:00:25 AM6/20/01
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Kevin,
the open source project has been announced, but not finalized yet. It will have another
name, but it hasn't been announced yet (although if you donwload the driver from partner
world, you will know the name ... i is on the splash screen). The WebsphereStudio Workbench
is available today to business partners, I am not sure as to when the open source version
will be launched...

Chris

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Jun 20, 2001, 9:58:18 AM6/20/01
to
Eric,
the open source should be the Workbench only. And this is similar to VisualAge for
Java, Professional without any feature... (except the wonderful Java IDE). What
kind of VisualAge feature are you looking for ?

Kevin J. Grittner

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:27:27 AM6/20/01
to
Chris,

I don't know about Eric, but we don't actually add any features, per
se. We use the browsers, the VCE for laying out panels (no connections
allowed), and the tool API to link to CVS and to our home-grown query
class builder.

Q: Will the current VAJ source browsers be duplicated in WSW?

Q: Will any sort visual bean editor be included? If so, will it be
capable of dealing with (or converting from) the current VCE format?

Q: I don't suppose that the new WSW will come with a set of classes
that implements the current VAJ tool API to allow existing tools to deal
with the new source code?

Thanks,

-Kevin

Denis Baranov

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 1:49:23 PM6/20/01
to
Sounds like Together/J... With the difference in about 3 to 5 years ;)

Denis.

Chris wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> "Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:
>

> > Chris,
> >
> > I don't know about Eric, but we don't actually add any features, per
> > se. We use the browsers, the VCE for laying out panels (no connections
> > allowed), and the tool API to link to CVS and to our home-grown query
> > class builder.
> >
> > Q: Will the current VAJ source browsers be duplicated in WSW?
>

> There will be source code views that will let you browse the classes/package ierarchy
> and methods/fields


>
> > Q: I don't suppose that the new WSW will come with a set of classes
> > that implements the current VAJ tool API to allow existing tools to deal
> > with the new source code?
>

> Well, well, well... there won;t be any ToolsAPI because the whole IDE is API ready. With
> the tools API you only had the ability to add a menu, here you can add a new
> view/editor/wizard/menu/pop-up menus etc...
> The toolsAPI only let you access the resources from the Workspace and the Repository,
> here you have API for resource management, builder, windows and desktop, and the
> complete Java model underlying (JDOM and another model) that gives you acces to
> EVERYTHING (even the method, signature, comment etc etc..) + new API for running,
> creating etc..

Chris

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 1:35:57 PM6/20/01
to
Kevin,

"Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I don't know about Eric, but we don't actually add any features, per
> se. We use the browsers, the VCE for laying out panels (no connections
> allowed), and the tool API to link to CVS and to our home-grown query
> class builder.
>
> Q: Will the current VAJ source browsers be duplicated in WSW?

There will be source code views that will let you browse the classes/package ierarchy
and methods/fields

> Q: I don't suppose that the new WSW will come with a set of classes


> that implements the current VAJ tool API to allow existing tools to deal
> with the new source code?

Well, well, well... there won;t be any ToolsAPI because the whole IDE is API ready. With


the tools API you only had the ability to add a menu, here you can add a new
view/editor/wizard/menu/pop-up menus etc...
The toolsAPI only let you access the resources from the Workspace and the Repository,
here you have API for resource management, builder, windows and desktop, and the
complete Java model underlying (JDOM and another model) that gives you acces to
EVERYTHING (even the method, signature, comment etc etc..) + new API for running,
creating etc..

>

Denis Baranov

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 4:04:00 PM6/20/01
to
Good, can be done probably, but if the new APIs were made available to developers, wouldn't it
be better to implement less-generic approach? I mean, working with files directly might
introduce problems later (like some listeners will not be notified and such)... Resources
consumption will probably be non optimal, too (like creating new dialog windows instead of
reusing those pooled by WSW).

Denis.

"Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I understand that WSW will allow more powerful techniques for
> integration. That is good news. The question is whether IBM will
> protect its customers who coded to the Tools API, by providing an
> adapter to allow existing code to run. It sounds like the answer to
> that is "no".
>
> We are planning to write (within the next two weeks) a partial
> implementation of the interfaces in the "IBM IDE Utility class
> libraries" project to allow our query tool, which currently works with
> the VAJ Tool API, to work with files in a subdirectory structure.
> Perhaps we will later be able to extend it far enough to cover our
> existing VAJ tools within the WSW environment. If we do so, and get it
> to where it seems like it might be of general use, I'll post it on
> SourceForge and mention it here.
>
> -Kevin

Kevin J. Grittner

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 4:01:32 PM6/20/01
to
Chris wrote:

>
> "Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:
>
> > Q: I don't suppose that the new WSW will come with a set of classes
> > that implements the current VAJ tool API to allow existing tools to deal
> > with the new source code?
>
> Well, well, well... there won;t be any ToolsAPI because the whole IDE is API ready. With
> the tools API you only had the ability to add a menu, here you can add a new
> view/editor/wizard/menu/pop-up menus etc...
> The toolsAPI only let you access the resources from the Workspace and the Repository,
> here you have API for resource management, builder, windows and desktop, and the
> complete Java model underlying (JDOM and another model) that gives you acces to
> EVERYTHING (even the method, signature, comment etc etc..) + new API for running,
> creating etc..

Chris,

Chris

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 4:47:27 PM6/20/01
to
Kevin,

"Kevin J. Grittner" wrote:

> Chris wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> I understand that WSW will allow more powerful techniques for
> integration. That is good news. The question is whether IBM will
> protect its customers who coded to the Tools API, by providing an
> adapter to allow existing code to run. It sounds like the answer to
> that is "no".

Funny that you are mentionning it... I just wrote a small paper to explain how to migrate from

VisualAge for Java Tools API to the Workbench: (How to contribute to a package or type pop-up
menu
as well as how to access the Java model). Remind me to send it to you when you will get the
workbench.

>
> We are planning to write (within the next two weeks) a partial
> implementation of the interfaces in the "IBM IDE Utility class
> libraries" project to allow our query tool, which currently works with
> the VAJ Tool API, to work with files in a subdirectory structure.
> Perhaps we will later be able to extend it far enough to cover our
> existing VAJ tools within the WSW environment. If we do so, and get it
> to where it seems like it might be of general use, I'll post it on
> SourceForge and mention it here.

If you need any help, let me know directly (ce...@ca.ibm.com)

>
> -Kevin

Don Brady

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 3:13:53 AM6/21/01
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:00:25 -0400, Chris <ce...@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

>Kevin,
>the open source project has been announced, but not finalized yet. It will have another
>name, but it hasn't been announced yet (although if you donwload the driver from partner
>world, you will know the name ... i is on the splash screen). The WebsphereStudio Workbench
>is available today to business partners, I am not sure as to when the open source version
>will be launched...
>

I am a Partnerworld member with the necessary access level.

That is, I can click the "Webspher Studio Workbench" link at
http://www.developer.ibm.com/welcome/wstools/workbench.html .

When I do, it takes me to the "WebSphere tools resource center" page
al right. But this page says:"The WebSphere Studio Workbench preview
will be available in incremental releases through July. Please check
back soon" and I cannot see any download link on the page.

Are you sure that it is available there now?

Thanks.


Jim Palistrant

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 8:08:02 AM6/21/01
to
Bundled in the case of WSAD and VAJ V4 means 'in the same box'.

Dave Ings wrote:

--
Jim Palistrant
Worldwide Technical Consultant for VisualAge for Java/WebSphere


Chris

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 9:58:20 AM6/21/01
to
Don,
At this same page I can see: "Selected members of PartnerWorld for Developers can access the new
WebSphere Studio Workbench technical preview. "
Check with your partner world contact...

Don Brady

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 1:11:40 PM6/21/01
to
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:58:20 -0400, Chris <ce...@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

>Don,
>At this same page I can see: "Selected members of PartnerWorld for Developers can access the new
>WebSphere Studio Workbench technical preview. "

I can see it too. I can click it and enter the protected page behind
it.

But despite the text of the link, the protected page behind it
contains the "check back later" text I posted..

>Check with your partner world contact...

I will see if I can get anything out of them (can be tricky) and post
when I do.

Thank you!

Don

Don Brady

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 1:46:50 PM6/21/01
to
>>Check with your partner world contact...
>
>I will see if I can get anything out of them (can be tricky) and post
>when I do.


OK it turns out that Partnerworld for Developers members have to send
an email to them to get a password to the secret download location. I
have done that and so I should soon have it.

Thanks for the clues.

Don

Joel Trunick

unread,
Jul 6, 2001, 10:20:20 AM7/6/01
to

Its going to be JDK1.2 for VAJ4.0? I'm really dissapointed to hear that as
well. I had to switch over to JBuilder to be able to use the JDK1.3
Javasound API. I've been "waiting" for VAJ to catch up, but I guess I'm
stuck with an inferior tool for longer. By then, Ill be entrenched, so don't
know if it will make sense to switch back (especially with all my Swing
stuff).

J

<paulw...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3B286CE6...@netscape.net...
> I just thought I'd add my voice to this posting.
>
> Personally, I'm VERY disappointed that VAJ 4.0 won't be supporting JDK 1.3
> (particularly with JDK 1.4 being round the corner). When I read the
original press
> release material for WAS 4.0 I was convinced that I saw JDK 1.3 support
and assumed
> that VAJ 4.0 would be doing the same to keep the two in sync. When I
examined the
> press release again I could find no trace of this - WAS I IMAGINING THIS??
>

>


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