Please, no more HTML
Kjetil Kilhavn
Explorer and other web browsers also when reading news, and also there are
newsreaders supporting HTML posts, some people use plain old-fashioned
newsreaders which support plain text and nothing else.
I am one of those
people. Why? Because if I want to see an HTML document I start Netscape,
but when I want to read news, I start a _Newsreader_ and have no desire to
see the slighest sign of an HTML tag, and it is quite annoying having to
first open the article and then
open the attachment in Netscape (requires a doubleclick and a wait for
Netscape).
So please give me the plain text, or be plonked :-)
--
Kjetil Kilhavn, using PMINews
Ken Walter
The same goes for Word documents.
Ken Walter
Remove .zamboni to reply
All the above is hearsay and the opinion of no one in particular
Shalom Yariv
> The same goes for Word documents.
I support.
Shalom Yariv
Norbert Zawodsky
> see the slighest sign of an HTML tag, and it is quite annoying having to
And I have no desire to pay higher and higher telephone bills for downloading
news-posts. So please, write your error messages in plain text instead of
using screen-shots!!!
Norbert
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sup...@thetaband.com
>And I have no desire to pay higher and higher telephone bills for
>downloading news-posts. So please, write your error messages in plain
>text instead of using screen-shots!!!
Now you're being stupid.
Converting bitmaps to text takes work. In many cases, it's a lot of
error-prone typing.
Not using HTML in news posts is as simple as selecting a checkbox on
settings dialog box.
--
Theta Band Software Technical Support, sup...@thetaband.com
For information on Theta Band Software products, visit
http://www.thetaband.com
Jerry Stuckle
Downloading bitmaps takes time - especially if you're using dialup
access. Those of you
who have T1 connections or better from work have it easy. Those who
don't have a lot more
problems. And, in Europe, even local calls are billed by the minute -
no free calls like
here in the U.S.
Net etiquitte means you don't post bitmaps or HTML in newsgroups.
Posting a bitmap because
it "takes work" shows a distinct lack of respect for the others using
the net, and lazyness
on your part.
Sorry, YOU are the one being stupid.
--
=======================================================
To reply, delete the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstu...@ibm.net
JDS Computer Training Corp.
Sun Certified Java Programmer
VisualAge/Java Certified Developer
VisualAge/C++ Certified Developer
=======================================================
Doug Swallow
newsgroup is for discussing a problem, and a screen shot is applicable and
useful to that discussion, then it should be a no-brainer that including it
is a good thing to do. Maybe every newsreader doesn't support HTML, but
should that mean the rest of us dumb-down to the lowest common denominator?
Modern newsreaders do support it, as they support attachments, too. The
transition from old to new is always painful for some. Just look what's been
happening with browsers and various enhancements to HTML and Java and
Javascript and ActiveX.
Just like there could be 1,000 posts here about some topic you have no
interest in, there will be posts you think are too big. Don't download them.
Doesn't your newsreader at least tell you the message size or number of
lines? Avoid the big ones. If you feel left out of a discussion, then read
the big ones, but to complain about it not meeting your desires for how it
was posted is a little... well, words escape me on that.
Years ago, I used CompuServe for technical support because most serious
software and hardware companies provided their best support through
CompuServe. I remember months of having $300+ bills from CompuServe, as well
as a time when the call to CompuServe was a long distance call for me. So I
had phone bills to go with CompuServe bills. But I chose to do it because of
the value I received. It was a price I had to pay. There were numerous ways
of minimizing online time, inluding some applications that'd batch download.
Frankly it was often easier to be online interactively, even though it cost
me more, but the option was there if I was pinching pennies to cut my online
and phone time to a small percentage of what it was using the service
interactively.
Now I do find HTML posts often annoying, but for esoteric reasons like not
liking the way messages are formatted. But I'm not gonna make an issue of it
because it's the content that's important to me, not the method of delivery.
If there was a good reason to use HTML for a post, I would certainly do so
myself. So far, I've found everything I need to post can be done as text.
But if something is difficult to describe and easy to show, I'd certainly
post a small screen shot or similar to go with it, if it was necessary to my
post.
If you were to suggest to someone that posting an uncompressed 24-bit BMP
screen shot is worng and it would be better for people reading if it had
been a tiny compressed JPG instead, that'd have a little more merit. But to
eliminate the screen shot entirely if it were useful to the post is not a
helpful suggestion. I think the point of these newsgroups (and most, in
general) is to exchange information and provide assistance to eachother.
Like any tool, if the one you use isn't doing a good job, find a better
tool.
---
Doug Swallow
dswa...@maxflight.com
Jerry Stuckle <jstu...@ibm.net> wrote in message
news:36DD4C...@ibm.net...
Rick Alther
messages. If you want to include a screen shot, add it as an
attachment. Most news readers should be able to deal with attachments.
- Rick Alther
EnVision Development
Norbert Zawodsky
Just to make some points clear before this discussion might become a quarrel
(which really is NOT my intention):
Yes, I agree, if newsgroups are for discussing problems and a screen shot
is applicable and useful (for example, to demonstrate damaged window
contents or things like that) then do include it. On the other hand, just
to reproduce an error message, I think it would be enogh to retype it
in plain text. BECAUSE:
> interest in, there will be posts you think are too big. Don't download them.
Most people who have to pay for local calls work in "offline mode" (or
whatever it is called in your specific newsreader). I dial up, tell the program
to download all new posts and disconnect again. And then I read them and if I
think I can help someone, I answer his/her post. So I've got no choice of
not downloading posts which contain multi-kilobyte-graphics.
O.k. You paid huge bills for Compuserve services because you had to do so.
But is it fair to argue in that direction? "I had to pay much, so it's
o.k. with me if others have to do it too..."
Norbert
P.S.: Followup-To set to ibm.software.vacpp.misc to reduce this discussion to
one group
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Kent Smith, Toronto
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your comment about screen shots. Screen shots are
a valuable debug
tool which communicate effectively, efficiently and ACCURATELY. With over 23 years
experience in this industry, I have on more than one occasion encountered trained
personnel who cannot accurately copy from the screen to paper the message text
before their eyes. Screen shots eliminate
the possibility of copying errors.
As one of the 'development team' building/supporting the VisualAge C++ product our
goal is to provide you with the best product on the market - just as your goal is
to be using the best product on
the market which allows you to develop your applications as quickly and efficiently
as possible.
Why then would you want to try and restrict the support which we can offer you?
cheers,
Norbert Zawodsky wrote:
> > but when I want to read news, I start a _Newsreader_ and have no desire to
> > see the slighest sign of an HTML tag, and it is quite annoying having to
>
> And I have no desire to pay higher and higher telephone bills for downloading
> news-posts. So please, write your error messages in plain text instead of
> using screen-shots!!!
>
> Norbert
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Paul Floyd
is acceptable within that newsgroup. Sometimes it's enforced by a
moderator, usually not. I'm not aware that any of the ibm.software.*
groups have a charter.
Having said that there is not a *single* newsgroup that I subscribe
to that allows binary posts in any form.
> I think I have to disagree with the concept you're advocating here. If this
> newsgroup is for discussing a problem, and a screen shot is applicable and
> useful to that discussion, then it should be a no-brainer that including it
> is a good thing to do. Maybe every newsreader doesn't support HTML, but
> should that mean the rest of us dumb-down to the lowest common denominator?
Yes. Usenet should be equal for everyone.
> Modern newsreaders do support it, as they support attachments, too. The
> transition from old to new is always painful for some. Just look what's been
> happening with browsers and various enhancements to HTML and Java and
> Javascript and ActiveX.
I systematically ignore all postings in HTML. Most of the
time I use text mode news readers (I'm using coredumpscape at
the moment though).
But while we're complaining, this thread is xposted to 4 groups...
Hwyl
Paul
--
Paul Floyd http://www.netmansys.com
Software Engineer MailTo:Paul....@netmansys.fr
Netmansys Tel: +33 (0)4 76 90 98 26 Fax: +33 (0)4 76 41 86 03
I do make unqualified statements, but this isn't one of them.
Jauvane C. de Oliveira
disclosed in the newsgroup. This way we still have reliability of the data in teh
screenshot and still save downloading to whoever isn't interested. Personally I don't
mind as I use Netscape and my connection, even though dial-up at 33.600 is fast enough
for me. I'd certainly use the URL approach if ever necessary and this post is simply
to suggest that. Now let us please halt this thread which is too long and doesn't seem
to be VAJava related.
only my 0.02.
JVc.
Norbert Zawodsky
And that is why I set the "followup-To" ...
Norbert
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Norbert Zawodsky
That is why it is discussed in a C++ group :-)
(Sorry, couldn't resist to place this (bad) joke)
Norbert
u...@40th.com
Rick Alther? (alt...@acm.org?) wrote (Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:21:28 -0500):
>I agree that screen shots should not be included inline with mail
>messages. If you want to include a screen shot, add it as an
>attachment. Most news readers should be able to deal with attachments.
Just post a URL and let anybody that's interested go look. Duh!
______________________________________________________________________
Corne1 Huth http://40th.com/ Bullet database engines/servers 3.0
______________________________________________________________________
Rick Alther
>
> Rick Alther? (alt...@acm.org?) wrote (Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:21:28 -0500):
> >I agree that screen shots should not be included inline with mail
> >messages. If you want to include a screen shot, add it as an
> >attachment. Most news readers should be able to deal with attachments.
>
> Just post a URL and let anybody that's interested go look. Duh!
That assumes that the user has a web site to post it to. And even if
they do, you're asking them to update their, most likely personal, web
page, upload the HTML and images, just to report a problem.
Store the image as JPEG with high compression and the image size is not
that big a deal. Posting bitmaps is another story.
What's wrong with using standard MIME encoded attachments?
--
Rick Alther
EnVision Development
Jauvane C. de Oliveira
www.Geocities.com may be used if no web-site is available (there are way too
many free web-site host services available).
> And even if they do, you're asking them to update their, most likely
> personal, web page, upload the HTML and images, just to report a problem.
> Store the image as JPEG with high compression and the image size is not that
> big a deal. Posting bitmaps is another story.
Ok, but you forgot that he/she is the one interested in solving the problem.
If you do want people to be willing to cooperate it is advisable to use the
web-site approach for instance because more people will possibly help (if you
send the JPG attached in the message many won't be able to see it and others
won't just because of the amount of time it took for download).
> What's wrong with using standard MIME encoded attachments?
Many people can't see it and it takes a lot of time to download (some people
has to pay for phone line use). Personally I don't mind as I don't pay neither
my provider nor my phone line, but I am certainly less willing to cooperate if
the person who needs help don't ask it in the right way. I'd modify your
question, what's the problem with the Web-site approach?
Again, this is not VACPP related and this will be my last post in this thread.
JVc.
Rick Alther
>
> > That assumes that the user has a web site to post it to.
>
> www.Geocities.com may be used if no web-site is available (there are way too
> many free web-site host services available).
Likewise, there are many mail programs that handle MIME encoded
attachments. Even text-bound systems like VM can handle MIME encoded
attachments. The Web-site approach is fine if you want to do that. But
not everybody the Web capability. What if the site is down, your
company gateway is down, your connection is horribly slow, you're at
your company behind a firewall which is very strict, etc? I don't know
about you, but trying to get anything accomplished on GeoCities during
the day is pitifully slow.
>
> > And even if they do, you're asking them to update their, most likely
> > personal, web page, upload the HTML and images, just to report a problem.
> > Store the image as JPEG with high compression and the image size is not that
> > big a deal. Posting bitmaps is another story.
>
> Ok, but you forgot that he/she is the one interested in solving the problem.
> If you do want people to be willing to cooperate it is advisable to use the
> web-site approach for instance because more people will possibly help (if you
> send the JPG attached in the message many won't be able to see it and others
> won't just because of the amount of time it took for download).
Yes, large (several hundred K) attachments are annoying, but screen
captures of dialogs or screens saved as JPEG rarely exceed 75K. Unless
you're still at 9600bps, that's not a lot. Besides, MIME encoded
attachments download MUCH faster (on the order of 7 - 10 times faster)
than typical binary attachments because MIME encoded attachments can be
compressed so much more than straight binary (via hardware compression
on the modem).
>
> > What's wrong with using standard MIME encoded attachments?
>
> Many people can't see it and it takes a lot of time to download (some people
> has to pay for phone line use).
But, you're willing to take even more time to view the image via the
web? You're still downloading it either way, albeit voluntarily rather
than involuntarily from the web.
I think it's also a netiquette call. Attaching an 800K zip file is
rather rude, but attaching a 60K file seems within the realm of reason.
Hell, a lot of images on web pages are large than that and most pages
have dozens of them.
<snip>
> Again, this is not VACPP related and this will be my last post in this thread.
Very true.