RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

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Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 10:02:43 AM4/19/12
to Chung-Chih Li, Jerome F. Keating, natpa forum, i_love...@googlegroups.com

Slogans shouted by someone who squirreled away an astronomical amount of money overseas (legally or illegally) would only inspire already-inspired diehards.

 

Inquisitive citizens would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”  and “What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?”

 

By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:

Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 


Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "力挺陳..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.

Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wycLVlcpsMY
請看看令人感動,高喊台獨建國的阿扁總統。
他是近年來唯一敢公然主張台灣獨立建國的政治人物。
阿扁公然主張,台灣中國,一邊一國,才會被害入獄

Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 11:11:14 AM4/19/12
to Jerome F. Keating, c li, natpa forum, i_love...@googlegroups.com

An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.

 

Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.

 

 

From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 


From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: cl...@ilstu.edu
CC: taiw...@hotmail.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Now we all know that CCL has a chink in his armor too!  : )

 

 

From: Chung-Chih Li [mailto:cl...@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: Jerome F. Keating; natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

Woops!  I do mean "chink" in his armor... Thanks for pointing it out in a nice way... haha...

CC Li

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Jerome F. Keating

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Apr 19, 2012, 11:38:59 AM4/19/12
to tsao natpa, c li, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group
Why do I always feel like I am listening to a program of Chiang Kai-shek re-visited as Chiang preached on and on about morality and what China needed?
Deja vu on natpa once again and again and again. I guess some people learned from the master.

As for ATMs, as far as I can see since the KMT has enough of their own,

Jerome F. Keating



From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: taiw...@hotmail.com; cl...@ilstu.edu
CC: natpa...@googlegroups.com; i_love...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:11:14 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

Inquisitive citizens would ask: 嚙踝蕭What are the good values behind these slogans?嚙踝蕭  and 嚙踝蕭What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?嚙踝蕭

 

By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

 

If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:

Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
嚙瞌嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.


Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wycLVlcpsMY
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎看令嚙瘡嚙瞑嚙褊,嚙踝蕭嚙諛台嚙磕嚙諍國的嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙諄。
嚙盤 嚙瞌嚙踝蕭~嚙諉唯一嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瞎嚙瘩嚙箠嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瘤嚙緞嚙瘡嚙踝蕭嚙瘠
嚙踝蕭 嚙踟公然嚙瘩嚙箠嚙璀嚙綞嚙磕嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭A嚙瑾嚙踝蕭@嚙踝蕭A嚙羯嚙罵嚙瞋嚙窯嚙皚嚙踝蕭嚙瘠

Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 11:49:00 AM4/19/12
to Jerome F. Keating, c li, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group

Jerome F. Keating loves and hates slogans at the same time.

 

Why?  He has not yet learned how to focus on specific and relevant facts.

 

He probably should descend from the lofty perch and ask Taiwanese on the street:  “To the KMT, is CSB an ATM machine or a machine gun?”

Inquisitive citizens would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”  and “What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?”

 

By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:

Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
力挺陳..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.


Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

看看令人感動,高喊台獨建國的阿扁總統。
是近年來唯一敢公然主張台灣獨立建國的政治人物。
扁公然主張,台灣中國,一邊一國,才會被害入獄

--

Taiwan_Echo

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Apr 19, 2012, 12:03:47 PM4/19/12
to taiw...@hotmail.com, tsao natpa, c li, I_love_taiwan group
>> As for ATMs, as far as I can see since the KMT has enough of their own, 

The KMT sucks money through the political system. But they sucks "votes" through people like CSB. Two different ATMs. 

There is always anti-Ma power inside the KMT and the blue camp. But whenever TIers shout TI and use that to "inspire" the crowd, all those anti-Ma's power line up with Ma. 

Here lies a tricky phenomena : Whenever some people try to push the society to the extreme side with a strong force, the society bounces back to the opposite side with even stronger force. 

This applies not only to the TI cause, but to the Annexation/Unification cause as well --- i.e., if some try to push Annexation of Taiwan to China with extreme forces, the society bounces back to the TI side with a stronger force. 

This is supported with statistic data --- the % of people claiming they are Taiwanese rose up much faster when Ma was in power than when CSB was in power. 
 
CSB is a powerful leader, there's no doubt. But that could be both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on the timing and the situation. CSB didn't know when to stop, that's why he continues to serve the "ATM of votes" for Ma Ying-jeou.


  

2012/4/19 Jerome F. Keating <taiw...@hotmail.com>
Why do I always feel like I am listening to a program of Chiang Kai-shek re-visited as Chiang preached on and on about morality and what China needed?
Deja vu on natpa once again and again and again. I guess some people learned from the master.

As for ATMs, as far as I can see since the KMT has enough of their own,

Jerome F. Keating



Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片


An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.

 

Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.

 

 

From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 

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http://groups.google.com/group/i_love_taiwan?hl=en     
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Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 12:19:45 PM4/19/12
to Taiwan_Echo, taiw...@hotmail.com, c li, I_love_taiwan group, natpa forum

I should add this:  A leader backed by moral authority leads the best.

 

It is sad that many green politicians only pay lip service to good values and a few green commentators publicly trash them.

Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 2:55:55 PM4/19/12
to Raymond Lee, natpa...@googlegroups.com, I_love_taiwan group

Yes, “CSB is a machine gun against the KMT” is a myth and “CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT” is a truth.

 

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lee
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 高喊"台灣獨立建國" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
高喊"台灣獨立建國" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.
This political drama keeps making CSB  a good KMT ATM machine for the years to come! 
Just check "how many signatures" collected in I_Love_Taiwan in the last four years, then  you know is "CSB a threat to KMT" or not.
Most DPP leaders keep a distant from this drama. To endorse this political pardon request is a politically suicidal attempt for DPP!

 

 


請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Michael Richardson

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Apr 19, 2012, 4:09:14 PM4/19/12
to ts...@ortpatent.com, natpa...@googlegroups.com, I_love_taiwan group
Actually "CSB is an ATM..." is not a truth.  It is CSB's conviction and imprisonment for corruption that acts as the ATM for votes--not CSB himself.  Since it is CSB's downfall that is to the KMT's benefit, the question that must be raised.....Did CSB get a fair trial?

Michael Richardson

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Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 19, 2012, 5:00:29 PM4/19/12
to Michael Richardson, natpa...@googlegroups.com, I_love_taiwan group

Did CSB get a fair trial?”  Michael ahs asked a  good question.

 

A related question: “Why did CSB say that I did something not permitted by law?” or “Did CSB ship a huge amount of money to Switzerland illegally?”

 

Most Taiwanese, rightfully or wrongfully, hate officials who are corrupt or perceived to be corrupt.  That dubious hatred (attributable to the rule-of-virtue culture from China) makes CSB an ATM machine to the KMT, an undeniable truth.

 

 

From: Michael Richardson [mailto:richards...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:09 PM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: natpa...@googlegroups.com; I_love_taiwan group
Subject: Re: [I Love Taiwan] RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

Actually "CSB is an ATM..." is not a truth.  It is CSB's conviction and imprisonment for corruption that acts as the ATM for votes--not CSB himself.  Since it is CSB's downfall that is to the KMT's benefit, the question that must be raised..... Did CSB get a fair trial?

chingchih chen

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Apr 19, 2012, 5:21:40 PM4/19/12
to Tsao, Rocky, natpa...@googlegroups.com, I_love_taiwan group
Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 





From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>
To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM

Jerome F. Keating

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Apr 19, 2012, 8:38:24 PM4/19/12
to ching chen, tsao natpa, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group
Good point!  And I wonder if "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels" then "Good values is the last refuge of _________?"

I do admit that if I had a dollar for every time that Ma Ying-jeou said "the corrupt DPP" I would be a rich man.
Just as if I had a dollar for every time some people said "we need good values, and cultural reform"I would be a rich man.

I believe in patriotism and democracy, yet at most 4th of July speeches I have to admit that after five to ten minutes, I do find myself wondering
who brought the apple pie.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating



Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:21:40 -0700
From: ching...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
To: Ts...@ortpatent.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
CC: i_love...@googlegroups.com

Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 




From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>
To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

Yes, 嚙踝蕭CSB is a machine gun against the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a myth and 嚙踝蕭CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a truth.
 
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lee

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.
This political drama keeps making CSB  a good KMT ATM machine for the years to come! 
Just check "how many signatures" collected in I_Love_Taiwan in the last four years, then  you know is "CSB a threat to KMT" or not.
Most DPP leaders keep a distant from this drama. To endorse this political pardon request is a politically suicidal attempt for DPP!
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.
 
Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.
 
 
From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: cl...@ilstu.edu
CC: taiw...@hotmail.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
Now we all know that CCL has a chink in his armor too!  : )
 
 
From: Chung-Chih Li [mailto:cl...@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: Jerome F. Keating; natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
Woops!  I do mean "chink" in his armor... Thanks for pointing it out in a nice way... haha...

CC Li



On 4/19/2012 9:02 AM, Tsao, Rocky wrote:
Slogans shouted by someone who squirreled away an astronomical amount of money overseas (legally or illegally) would only inspire already-inspired diehards.
 
Inquisitive citizens would ask: 嚙踝蕭What are the good values behind these slogans?嚙踝蕭  and 嚙踝蕭What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?嚙踝蕭
 
By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:
Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
嚙瞌嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.

Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎看令嚙瘡嚙瞑嚙褊,嚙踝蕭嚙諛台嚙磕嚙諍國的嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙諄。
嚙盤 嚙瞌嚙踝蕭~嚙諉唯一嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瞎嚙瘩嚙箠嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瘤嚙緞嚙瘡嚙踝蕭嚙瘠
嚙踝蕭 嚙踟公然嚙瘩嚙箠嚙璀嚙綞嚙磕嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭A嚙瑾嚙踝蕭@嚙踝蕭A嚙羯嚙罵嚙瞋嚙窯嚙皚嚙踝蕭嚙瘠

Taiwan_Echo

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Apr 19, 2012, 9:10:27 PM4/19/12
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CC,

The argument on "consequences of surprising the USA" can only apply to CSB. Tsai IW will never do that sort of thing. But still, the USA rejects her and supports Ma Ying-jeou  instead. It is obvious that "surprising Uncle Sam" couldn't explain why the USA did what they did (especially in 2012).

People often argue that the reason CSB didn't get alone with the USA because that he gave the USA surprises, in the term that CSB didn't inform them in advance what Taiwan decided to do.

But I often wonder: why Taiwan should "report" to the Uncle Sam for what we intend to do. If Taiwan is a country with own sovereignty, why on earth would the USA has the right to get angry when we are making decision on our own ? 

Unless the USA sees Taiwan as their subordinate, and thinks that they hold the right to approve/disapprove what Taiwan wants to do.

In my opinion, the USA has meddled Taiwan's internal affair to a point way beyond acceptable. We couldn't even have a referendum without their approval !

Isn't that the exactly same way by which China is bullying Taiwan ?

The attitude of USA's in meddling in Taiwan's business has reached a historical height in the 2012-election and the issue of USA's chemical-containing beef. The officials from the AIT have behaved like a pro-blue party in Taiwan, with no shame on spreading distorted info to Taiwan's public. 

If we take into account the facts including that (1) the USA is supporting pro-China Ma Ying-jeou; (2) the USA is preparing a transition from the 第一島鏈 (that includes Taiwan) to 第二島鏈 (that excludes Taiwan) in their western pacific defense field, it won't be hard to observe that the USA is preparing for the possibility that Taiwan will be taken by China, and they are trying to squeeze as much gain as possible from Taiwan before Taiwan falls into China's hand, 'cos after then the USA can't squeeze any profit from Taiwan anymore

In the recent case of American beef, the USA has set a trap for Ma Ying-jeou to walk into, in which Ma has no way to control further opening of American stuff after the beef , because what Ma promises to the public in return of people's support of the American beef are violating the WHO rules. Ma would easily justify his future-promises-breakings by saying that violating the WHO will get punished so it's impossible for Taiwan to keep those policies. 
 
What's wrong with "import of stuff other than beef" ? We need to be aware : the reproamine-containing pork will be where the USA will gain most profits from Taiwan, not the beef. It will also where the Taiwan pig farmers will suffer the most. After all, Taiwan consume much more pork than beef, and requests from USA politicians are that Taiwan have to open up the pork market (NOT THE BEEF !) to the USA's reproamine-containing pork. 

That is, we are in the beginning of even more larger scale of extortion, an era in which both China and the USA are competing on extorting more profits from Taiwan. 

So, back to your first sentence: "Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam." As far as I know, the USA is extorting us, and it's just beginning. Why should we be in their shoes ?



2012/4/19 chingchih chen <ching...@yahoo.com>

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Taiwan_Echo

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Apr 19, 2012, 9:19:06 PM4/19/12
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See below:

豬價直直落 賣越多賠越多
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2012/new/apr/20/today-center4.htm

豬雞不漲反跌 成本增加、供銷失衡飼主雙重打擊
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2012/new/apr/20/today-south7.htm


It already hard for the pig farmers. I believe that after the opening of reproamine-beef, Ma will continue to open up the reproamine-port. With that, I am afraid that the entire pig raising industry in Taiwan will be wiped out, and the Uncle Sam will be happy to have taken the advantages. 

In my opinion, this is as serious as or close to 亡國.



2012/4/19 Taiwan_Echo <taiwa...@gmail.com>

Lee, Tun-Hou

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Apr 20, 2012, 3:37:23 AM4/20/12
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Abian’s US issue was rooted in the declaration of “4 no’s and 1 nothing” at the time of his inauguration in 2000 and his subsequent refusal to repeat the pledge in his second term in 2004.   No one should ever doubt that Abian did not craft that “4 and 1” statement willingly, although one could doubt that if he could have resisted the pressure put on him and took a gamble.  It would have been very hard for any responsible leader of Taiwan to gamble away Taiwan’s safety then. A case in point is that even for someone as polished and as well-versed in international affairs as Lee, Teng-Huei, he still had to retract from his declaration that Taiwan and China are in a “Special State-to State” relationship very shortly (about 24 hours) after the statement was made purposefully to a German reporters.

 

With hindsight, I wished Abian never made the” 4 and 1” declaration and took a chance, but I will not fault him for making it for the reason mentioned above   Once Abian made that pledge in 2000 and refused to repeat it in 2004, one knows that US will not treat him nicely, because the modality of “co-managing” Taiwan with China became inoperable (and US lost its credibility with China about just leaving managing Taiwan in the US hand). 

 

As a side note, why did Douglas Pall so piss off at Abian?  Just imagine that you are Abian’s US “handler” and you cannot “control” him.  How does it look in the eyes of State Dept and/or While House about your ability? 

 

Tun-Hou  

chingchih chen

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Apr 20, 2012, 7:36:59 AM4/20/12
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Echo,

The last third of your response essentially substantiated my statement that" Ma 9 ... has been the ATM machine to the U.S. .."

As for "consequences of (CSB's) surprising the USA", the fact that we know the USA did favor Ma over Tsai Ing-wen at least explains the US decision-makers did not trust DPP even though CSB was no longer a DPP member. [For an example of  US view of CSB's surprises and defiance, please see wikileak file on media reaction: US-Taiwan relations  http://dazzlepod.com/cable/07AITTAIPEI1396/?rss=1 ]

Tsai did her best to reassure the US, particularly during her visit to Washington DC last September, that she would be reasonable in her dealing with the US.  She would not be a CSB. Period.  However, some US decision-makers apparently chose not to believe her because she is presidential candidate and chair of DPP, which has advocated TI, a goal that the US has repeatedly and officially made known that it does not support.  CSB's surprises have provided them reasons to be skeptical of the DPP and hence Tsai.   In a sense, then Tsai and DPP have paid for the price of CSB's surprises.   Believing the US, many voters must have cast their votes for Ma on January 14, 2012.

Has the US seen "Taiwan as their subordinate" (as you have raised)?   Taiwan clearly is not seen by the US as their equal.  Taiwan is not even seen as an ally the way Japan is to the US.  And, we remember that Nixon and Kissinger shocked Japan with their rapprochement with China in the early 1970's.  The Japanese almost considered that as a betrayal of a trustworthy ally.  In international politics, not all sovereign nations are equal.  Is Afghanistan, for example, an equal of the US?  And, the US doesn't even recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation.  For their national interest, the US will do what they think needs to be done, including skillfully intervening in Taiwan's presidential elections.



  

From: Taiwan_Echo <taiwa...@gmail.com>
To:
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [I Love Taiwan] Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Taiwan_Echo

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Apr 20, 2012, 9:21:38 AM4/20/12
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Dear Tun-Hun,

I know CSB made the US look bad. It seems to be a common impression that CSB made the USA mad by "not behave."

We can emphasize this repeatedly, but, the point I wanted to raise in my previous mail is: if the way the US works is to make Taiwan president listening to them, getting approval from them before making moves, then, what's the difference between the USA and China ? Didn't CSB also make China mad ?

It seems that the USA is doing whatever we criticize what China has been doing, that is: bullying us. But, when China is bullying us, we fight back; when the USA is bullying us, we tend to "wear their shoes and side with them to blame CSB or ourselves." 

Something is terribly wrong here. We need to re-think the role of the USA seriously and recognize the true nature of how they work. They will never work for the charity of Taiwan or any other countries. They work for the American interests, which often comes with the destruction of other countries. There is not even a "mutual beneficial" interaction here --- when they see Taiwan is weak and can only serve as their subordinate or something that must be under their full control, and possibly will fall into 100% China control in the near future, their bullying is no mercy. They have to do this, otherwise they lose the chance to squeeze profit from Taiwan for their own people.    

Note that I am not trying to spread an anti-USA mentality. I am trying to remind people that we need to have the ability of see through the real nature of any foreign approaches --- appreciate them when they are beneficial to Taiwan, and fight them when they are harmful to Taiwan. Only by recognizing that nature can we pay attention to their strength and weakness, and devise a plan to get an upper hand during negotiations.

At this moment, we are totally impotent in that regard when facing the USA. We look at them as a "good guy" ( in contrast to the "bad guy" China), and that's it. By setting our mind to a rigid impression like that, we get lazy and never really study them. As a result, we are incapable to see when they cross the line. 

Tsai IW is the only one head-clear enough to see through that. I believe that's why the USA denied her, because they can't squeeze substantial profits outta Taiwan from her . I'll talk more about this later.   


2012/4/20 Lee, Tun-Hou <tunh...@hsph.harvard.edu>

chingchih chen

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Apr 20, 2012, 10:15:58 AM4/20/12
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Echo,

Sorry I forgot to address your  last two lines:  "So, back to your first sentence: "Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam." As far as I know, the USA is extorting us, and it's just beginning. Why should we be in their shoes ?"

I acknowledge that it was inappropriate for me say "Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam".  What I meant to say is:  Let's see from a the perspective of the US.  We do need to see why the US behave the way they do toward Taiwan.  And, we have to ask ourselves if we are in a position to be as defiant as CSB did toward our one and only significant "ally".  And, now most of us are sure that CSB's defiance really was not in the best interest of Taiwan.  


From: chingchih chen <ching...@yahoo.com>
To: "Taiwa...@gmail.com" <Taiwa...@gmail.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>; NATPA- Forum <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 7:36 AM

Taiwan_Echo

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Apr 20, 2012, 10:17:06 AM4/20/12
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CC,

We all learn that the USA was enraged by CSB's actions and that's why they denied him (at least apparently).  But is that resentment against CSB carried over to Tsai ? I don't think so. 

I believe that the USA asked Tsai to open up the beef and other meat market to the USA's reproamine-containing meats, but Tsai refused to sacrifice Taiwan's interest in return of the USA's support to her campaign.  That's why the USA turned their support to Ma, 'cos Ma is so much easier to manipulate.

This idea came from a combination of many lines of observations, including :

1) that the USA warned China not to interfere Taiwan's election such that they can have 100% right of interference themselves;
2) that the USA announced the Visa Waiver "candidate" status of Taiwan (which to my opinion is nothing but a show; I can write a long article about that);
3) that Tsai talked about the complication and the impact of trade (including beef trade) to Taiwan many times before;
4) that Tsai is famous for being a hard nut to crack in the eyes of negotiation opponents;
5) that Tsai refused to meet AIT official after the election, a sign of very serious protest;  
6) ....

I don't have time (nor is here the space) to go into details on each of them. But with all info I learned, I can suggest a possible scenario starting from Tsai's visit to the pentagon last year :

1. Tsai visited the USA
2. The USA wanted her to promise opening up the trade market, possibly with a threat of dropping support to her campaign, including putting out the Visa Waiver candidate list;
3. Tsai refused;
4. anonymous official spread news to the Financial Times (?)  of worrying about Tsai, in disguise that the USA gov worries Tsai's pro-TI stance;
5. Tsai still insists not to sacrifice Taiwan's interests, and managed to reach an agreement that the USA won't choose side before the election, including not to announce the Visa Waiver candidate list;
6. The USA decided to turn to Ma. They violate the agreement, announced VW one month before the election;
7. Tsai refused to meet AIT official after the election because the USA broke their promise.

How real is this scenario ? I don't know. We will probably never know, 'cos both the USA and Tsai will never make it to the public.   But at least it is one that supports all my observations. 

Based on this scenario, I don't think the USA's resentment against CSB plays any role in USA's no support of Tsai. I do believe that the USA will make all efforts to make it look like that so they can hide their true intention behind it, and  please China at the same time. 



2012/4/20 chingchih chen <ching...@yahoo.com>

Lee, Tun-Hou

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Apr 20, 2012, 11:25:21 AM4/20/12
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Echo,  

 

Maybe I did not make myself clear in my previous posting.  I was pointing out a reality, but did not disagree with your underlying theme that US will only act on its own interests, perceived or real.

 

As to the question raised in this fourm of why US trusted Ma  more than Tsai, my take is that US knew where Ma is heading but US does not feel comfortable letting Taiwanese reach its own consensus on where Taiwan should be heading.  Under this circumstance, there are players in this Obama government which tried to outsmart everyone else by leaking the "news" to the Financial Times.    Obama will not get my vote in 2012 because of this.

 

Tun-Hou

chingchih chen

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Apr 20, 2012, 1:27:26 PM4/20/12
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Sounds good.  I look forward to read an article on this theme by you or someone.  

I read somewhere that the US wish to open China's vast market for US beef and pork by compelling Taiwan to open its door first.


From: Taiwan_Echo <taiwa...@gmail.com>
To: chingchih chen <ching...@yahoo.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:17 AM

Frank S T Hsiao

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Apr 20, 2012, 11:51:24 PM4/20/12
to tunh...@hsph.harvard.edu, I_love_taiwan group

Echo’s question is right, “the USA is extorting us, and it's just beginning. Why should we be in their shoes ?” But doesTaiwan have choice?

 

I remember Chen Tang Shan, the Minister of Foreign Affairs at that time, told that ABian’s declaration of “4 no’s and 1 nothing” was forced upon him by USA. It is not fair to blame ABian, as he did not have choice at all.

Tsao, Rocky

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Apr 21, 2012, 7:09:25 AM4/21/12
to Jerome F. Keating, ching chen, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group
I disagree with Professor Keating, who seems to have a muddled mind.

We do not dump patriotism simply because scoundrels hide behind it.  We dump scoundrels.

No, I am not implying that Professor Keating is a scoundrel.



On Apr 19, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "Jerome F. Keating" <taiw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good point!  And I wonder if "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels" then "Good values is the last refuge of _________?"

I do admit that if I had a dollar for every time that Ma Ying-jeou said "the corrupt DPP" I would be a rich man.
Just as if I had a dollar for every time some people said "we need good values, and cultural reform"I would be a rich man.

I believe in patriotism and democracy, yet at most 4th of July speeches I have to admit that after five to ten minutes, I do find myself wondering
who brought the apple pie.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating



Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:21:40 -0700
From: ching...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 




From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>
To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Yes, “CSB is a machine gun against the KMT” is a myth and “CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT” is a truth.
 
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lee

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 高喊"台灣獨立建國" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
高喊"台灣獨立建國" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.
This political drama keeps making CSB  a good KMT ATM machine for the years to come! 
Just check "how many signatures" collected in I_Love_Taiwan in the last four years, then  you know is "CSB a threat to KMT" or not.
Most DPP leaders keep a distant from this drama. To endorse this political pardon request is a politically suicidal attempt for DPP!
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.
 
Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.
 
 
From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: cl...@ilstu.edu
CC: taiw...@hotmail.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
Now we all know that CCL has a chink in his armor too!  : )
 
 
From: Chung-Chih Li [mailto:cl...@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: Jerome F. Keating; natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
Woops!  I do mean "chink" in his armor... Thanks for pointing it out in a nice way... haha...

CC Li



On 4/19/2012 9:02 AM, Tsao, Rocky wrote:
Slogans shouted by someone who squirreled away an astronomical amount of money overseas (legally or illegally) would only inspire already-inspired diehards.
 
Inquisitive citizens would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”  and “What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?”
 
By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:
Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
力挺陳..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.

Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:
看看令人感動,高喊台獨建國的阿扁總統。
是近年來唯一敢公然主張台灣獨立建國的政治人物。
扁公然主張,台灣中國,一邊一國,才會被害入獄

Jerome F. Keating

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Apr 22, 2012, 3:25:14 AM4/22/12
to tsao natpa, ching chen, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group
A muddled mind is it?  Well I guess that is better than being called a scoundrel, though I have to admit that I have been called worse.

However, I don't see where I said that we dump patriotism because scoundrels hide behind it,
My reference to the quote was to bring out the point that simply preaching something does not mean one practices it.
Some of the greatest proponents of patriotism were people like Hitler, Stalin, Chiang Kai-shek, Mao, etc.
Likewise then for the preaching of good values and cultural reform. If scoundrels can easily hide behind patriotism, I was asking what
kind of people easily hide behind good values and cultural reform?  And from what I see in the attacks in forum discussions, good values don't seem to be
the motivating force, but of course I could be wrong.

Certainly however, when people drone on and on about something I admit I begin to get bored and question why. For example, who does not get sick after
hearing Chiang Kai-shek drone on and on about patriotism.

So back to good values and cultural reform. Who can be against such??  Just like who can be against patriotism?
And I acknowledge that every society needs reform. The world is not perfect and never will be.
But for some is this the invitation that they want? i.e.  that they can then be the perfect ones sitting in judgment on the world, good values, whatever.

I don't remember any election in the forum that certain people are the ones elected to be the arbiters of good values etc.
some seem to desire that role but I may have missed that election.

I raise the question, and I ask is anyone else getting bored with this droning on and on, how many years has it been? and what has been accomplished other than
some people feeling satisfied that they are the reformers?
Maybe we should create a "good values and cultural reform" forum where those who desire such can go on and on.

Oh and one other point, I thought we had agreed to keep the natpa dirty laundry within the confines of the natpa forum.
However, some how, some where, someone dragged the I Love Taiwan group back into our dirty laundry.
To the I Love Taiwan people, sorry about that, I love you guys and gals as well, but I don't think you really want to view to natpa dirty laundry.

So when did it happen?  Well according to the tracking device my server now lists, the discussion was going on within natpa, and then
on April 19, when Rocky answered Ray Lee, somehow I Love Taiwan came on the list so that when someone hits reply all, I Love Taiwan is in the mix.
Rocky, I think your slip is showing.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating



From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: taiw...@hotmail.com
CC: ching...@yahoo.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com; i_love...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 07:09:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭


I disagree with Professor Keating, who seems to have a muddled mind.

We do not dump patriotism simply because scoundrels hide behind it.  We dump scoundrels.

No, I am not implying that Professor Keating is a scoundrel.



On Apr 19, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "Jerome F. Keating" <taiw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good point!  And I wonder if "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels" then "Good values is the last refuge of _________?"

I do admit that if I had a dollar for every time that Ma Ying-jeou said "the corrupt DPP" I would be a rich man.
Just as if I had a dollar for every time some people said "we need good values, and cultural reform"I would be a rich man.

I believe in patriotism and democracy, yet at most 4th of July speeches I have to admit that after five to ten minutes, I do find myself wondering
who brought the apple pie.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating



Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:21:40 -0700
From: ching...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 




From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>
To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

Yes, 嚙踝蕭CSB is a machine gun against the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a myth and 嚙踝蕭CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a truth.
 
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lee

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.
This political drama keeps making CSB  a good KMT ATM machine for the years to come! 
Just check "how many signatures" collected in I_Love_Taiwan in the last four years, then  you know is "CSB a threat to KMT" or not.
Most DPP leaders keep a distant from this drama. To endorse this political pardon request is a politically suicidal attempt for DPP!
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.
 
Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.
 
 
From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
From: Ts...@ortpatent.com
To: cl...@ilstu.edu
CC: taiw...@hotmail.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
Now we all know that CCL has a chink in his armor too!  : )
 
 
From: Chung-Chih Li [mailto:cl...@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: Jerome F. Keating; natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
Woops!  I do mean "chink" in his armor... Thanks for pointing it out in a nice way... haha...

CC Li



On 4/19/2012 9:02 AM, Tsao, Rocky wrote:
Slogans shouted by someone who squirreled away an astronomical amount of money overseas (legally or illegally) would only inspire already-inspired diehards.
 
Inquisitive citizens would ask: 嚙踝蕭What are the good values behind these slogans?嚙踝蕭  and 嚙踝蕭What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?嚙踝蕭
 
By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭
 
If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:
Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
嚙瞌嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.

Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎看令嚙瘡嚙瞑嚙褊,嚙踝蕭嚙諛台嚙磕嚙諍國的嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙諄。
嚙盤 嚙瞌嚙踝蕭~嚙諉唯一嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瞎嚙瘩嚙箠嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瘤嚙緞嚙瘡嚙踝蕭嚙瘠
嚙踝蕭 嚙踟公然嚙瘩嚙箠嚙璀嚙綞嚙磕嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭A嚙瑾嚙踝蕭@嚙踝蕭A嚙羯嚙罵嚙瞋嚙窯嚙皚嚙踝蕭嚙瘠

Taitzer

unread,
Apr 22, 2012, 7:02:22 AM4/22/12
to I Love Taiwan
Jerome: "I ask is anyone else getting bored with this droning on and on, how many years has it been? and what has been accomplished other than
some people feeling satisfied that they are the reformers? .... who does not get sick after hearing Chiang Kai-shek drone on and on about patriotism.... ... they can then be the perfect ones sitting in judgment on the world, good values, whatever......" ......

A little history:  Quite a few years ago I, among a few NATPA members, proposed that the NATPA Forum be opened to the public, as professors' duty is to educate the public and to be receptive to the public opinions. A closed Forum is good only for confidential activities, but not for public discussions of politics, culture, and the like.  Such good discussions we read on NATPA Forum need to be made known to the public.  The proposed change did not take place, and then Professor Luby Liao's I-Love-Taiwan Forum came along.  The willing NATPA Forum members have thus remained captive audience of the "droning", an unfortunate situation which needs not be.
 
Before I knew it, I-Love-Taiwan Forum had been openly perceived as a Forum belonging to a certain group of like-minded people, not just Professor Luby Liao's Forum.  I sincerely doubt that it's Luby's original purpose of creating I-Love-Taiwan Forum.  To me, it's simply a case of birds of a feather flocking together and claiming the territory their own.  Only Luby knows if my conjesture is well founded. 
 
NATPA and TAUP in Taiwan co-sponsor AURORA e-paper.  AURORA publishes articles which have beginning, middle and ending of creative writings.  NATPA members should spend time writing creatively, not to short sell judgments of others' points of view and "drone" on and on on the Forums.  Droning has already wasted too much of readers' time.   
 
Taitzer  4/22
 
 
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

I disagree with Professor Keating, who seems to have a muddled mind.

We do not dump patriotism simply because scoundrels hide behind it.  We dump scoundrels.

No, I am not implying that Professor Keating is a scoundrel.



On Apr 19, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "Jerome F. Keating" <taiw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good point!  And I wonder if "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels" then "Good values is the last refuge of _________?"

I do admit that if I had a dollar for every time that Ma Ying-jeou said "the corrupt DPP" I would be a rich man.
Just as if I had a dollar for every time some people said "we need good values, and cultural reform"I would be a rich man.

I believe in patriotism and democracy, yet at most 4th of July speeches I have to admit that after five to ten minutes, I do find myself wondering
who brought the apple pie.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating



Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:21:40 -0700
From:
ching...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
To:
Ts...@ortpatent.com; natpa...@googlegroups.com
CC: i_love...@googlegroups.com

Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 




From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>
To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Yes, “CSB is a machine gun against the KMT” is a myth and “CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT” is a truth.
 
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lee

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To:
natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 高喊"台灣獨立建國" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
高喊"台灣獨立建國
" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.
This political drama keeps making CSB  a good KMT ATM machine for the years to come! 
Just check "how many signatures" collected in I_Love_Taiwan in the last four years, then  you know is "CSB a threat to KMT" or not.
Most DPP leaders keep a distant from this drama. To endorse this political pardon request is a politically suicidal attempt for DPP!
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:11:14 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
An inconvenient fact for myopic, ostrich-like sloganeers:   The KMT sees CSB as an ATM machine, not a threat such as a machine gun.
 
Allow me to remind our slogan lovers.  China fears good values, including democracy and human rights.
 
 
From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:30 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky; c li
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
With all the chinks in his armor, it remains that his enemies still see him as a threat;
perhaps they see something that some natpa members, lost in their good values don't see, revealing the chinks in natpa.

as a matter of fact, I don't see anyone in the KMT, USA or China worried about a threat from the "good value" people of natpa.
I wonder why?

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
Now we all know that CCL has a chink in his armor too!  : )
 
 
From: Chung-Chih Li [mailto:cl...@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky
Cc: Jerome F. Keating; natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
Woops!  I do mean "chink" in his armor... Thanks for pointing it out in a nice way... haha...

CC Li



On 4/19/2012 9:02 AM, Tsao, Rocky wrote:
Slogans shouted by someone who squirreled away an astronomical amount of money overseas (legally or illegally) would only inspire already-inspired diehards.
 
Inquisitive citizens would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”  and “What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?”
 
By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.
 
From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片
 
If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:
Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome
Jerome F. Keating
 
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From:
cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
力挺陳..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.

Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

Tsao, Rocky

unread,
Apr 22, 2012, 6:26:56 PM4/22/12
to Jerome F. Keating, ching chen, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group

Jerome argued that CSB is dangerous to the KMT, referring to his inspiring a crowd by chanting slogans (with a WUFI leader next to him).

 

Believing that CSB is no longer influential given his shipping a huge amount of money overseas, I raised a question that many would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”

 

What was wrong with mentioning good values in this specific context, instead of in a vacuum?

 

What was the basis for Jerome to launch an attack at me in response:  “Good values is the last refuge of _________"?

I believe that Jerome is not a _________.  It appears to me that he just has a muddled mind that cannot process specific facts.  In any event, Jerome will always have followers worshipping him, such as Taitzer.

 

By the way, not all WUFI leaders agree with Jerome, a WUFI advisor, that CSB is a threat, not an ATM machine, to the KMT.  It is an issue on which WUFI should reach a consensus soon.

 

Finally, on Jerome’s “Rocky, I think your slip is showing,” I only followed what several have done, i.e., posting messages on both the NATPA and I-L-T forums.  Is NATPA’s “dirty laundry” (e.g., Jerome having a muddled mind?) showing?  So what?  Admission is the first step to reform.

 

From: Jerome F. Keating [mailto:taiw...@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:25 AM
To: Tsao, Rocky

Cc: ching chen; natpa forum; I_love_taiwan group

請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

 

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

 

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

 

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 

 

 

 

 


From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>


To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]

請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

Yes, “CSB is a machine gun against the KMT” is a myth and “CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT” is a truth.

 

 


Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 高喊"台灣獨立建國" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
高喊"台灣獨立建國" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.

Inquisitive citizens would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?” and “What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?”

 

By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:

Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
力挺陳..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.


Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

Jerome F. Keating

unread,
Apr 23, 2012, 5:37:36 AM4/23/12
to tsao natpa, ching chen, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group
There is nothing wrong with asking what the good values are in any context.

But good values are the easiest hobby horse to ride, just like patriotism. Chiang Kai-shek was a master of riding that, just like that of patriotism.
The readers know who has tried hard to do that.

As I said, if I had a dollar for everytime Ma-9 said the corrupt DPP, I would be rich.
Just as if I had a dollar for every time that some people say good values, I would also be rich.

So my comment that for some Chen is considered dangerous stands; whether they are accurate or not is irrelevant, I personally believe that while he moved millions of dollars overseas, there are many that he could still stir up. Some good value people would have trouble accepting that but that c'est la vie.
Mao was always afraid of the Mongolians taking pride in Genghis Kahn; he did all he could to prevent that. was he right? 
Now I would also agree that Chen is used as an ATM by the KMT; just as he is used as an ATM to a lesser degree by some in the USA.
And I would agree that some in the KMT, as CCL said, just want Chen to suffer for a variety of reasons. These are not mutually exclusive.

Whether my attack was on Rocky or not, is in the mind of the beholder;  I left the end blank so that those who have listened to good values ad infinitum could draw their own conclusions.  Who knows Rocky, they may consider you a hero, but then again, they may not. Some still consider CCK a hero, but others, well . . .

And as for Natpa's dirty laundry; the chairperson of Natpa, asked that all Natpa discussions be kept within the forum; most kept followed his direction, some did not.
I will leave that for the chairperson of Natpa to take care of.

There is nothing wrong with posting new items on each forum; I always share my writings with each.
But when one drags emails that have a long trail of discussions onto the new forum, that is a different matter.
Check the paper trail and you will see that.

And why is WUFI all of a sudden being dragged into this?  That one puzzles me, it seems like someone has a past history and issues that they are trying to settle.
What are the good values in that??

There is so much hidden here; yes Rocky, admission is the first step to reform, even for those who continually preach good values.

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating


Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 18:26:56 -0400
Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

Jerome argued that CSB is dangerous to the KMT, referring to his inspiring a crowd by chanting slogans (with a WUFI leader next to him).

 

Believing that CSB is no longer influential given his shipping a huge amount of money overseas, I raised a question that many would ask: 嚙踝蕭What are the good values behind these slogans?嚙踝蕭

 

What was wrong with mentioning good values in this specific context, instead of in a vacuum?

 

What was the basis for Jerome to launch an attack at me in response:  嚙踝蕭Good values is the last refuge of _________"?

I believe that Jerome is not a _________.  It appears to me that he just has a muddled mind that cannot process specific facts.  In any event, Jerome will always have followers worshipping him, such as Taitzer.

 

By the way, not all WUFI leaders agree with Jerome, a WUFI advisor, that CSB is a threat, not an ATM machine, to the KMT.  It is an issue on which WUFI should reach a consensus soon.

 

Finally, on Jerome嚙踝蕭s 嚙踝蕭Rocky, I think your slip is showing,嚙踝蕭 I only followed what several have done, i.e., posting messages on both the NATPA and I-L-T forums.  Is NATPA嚙踝蕭s 嚙踝蕭dirty laundry嚙踝蕭 (e.g., Jerome having a muddled mind?) showing?  So what?  Admission is the first step to reform.

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

 

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

 

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

 

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 

 

 

 

 


From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>


To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]

嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

 

Yes, 嚙踝蕭CSB is a machine gun against the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a myth and 嚙踝蕭CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT嚙踝蕭 is a truth.

 

 


Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙請看迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

 

The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" drama.
They need to grasp a straw(
嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭"嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭" , " CSB is still a threat to KMT or CCP"...) to save their political lives in the deep water of political power game.

Inquisitive citizens would ask: 嚙踝蕭What are the good values behind these slogans?嚙踝蕭 and 嚙踝蕭What are the good values the TI movement is pursuing?嚙踝蕭

 

By the way, I do hope that CSB will keep his chin up, even though there are too many chinks in his armor.

 

From: natpa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:natpa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chung-Chih Li
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:46 PM
To: Jerome F. Keating
Cc: natpa forum
Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]
嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

 

If there is no chin in his armor, yes, he is dangerous.  Yes, you can understand chin as chin in Taiwan.  hehehe....

Regards,
Chun-Chih Li


On 4/18/2012 8:25 PM, Jerome F. Keating wrote:

Whenever it was taken it represents how Chen could inspire the masses! That plus the fact that he speaks of establishing one's country is what makes him dangerous
in the eyes of those that pander to China!

Jerome

Jerome F. Keating

 

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:18:25 -0500
From: cl...@ilstu.edu
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 嚙踝蕭 嚙豎迎蕭饇玟菪x嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建國的嚙緞嚙踝蕭

When was this video taken? It's doesn't look like he is still a sitting president in the video.  From the video, the banner behind him goes "
嚙瞌嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭..." (can't see the whole banner), so he was already in trouble. Was it taken after 5/20/2008, or during his short period of probation?  If so, it's a post condition of his trouble, not the cause.


Regards,
Chung-Chih Li


On 4/17/2012 2:16 PM, Johnson C Wang wrote:

嚙踝蕭 嚙豎看令嚙瘡嚙瞑嚙褊,嚙踝蕭嚙諛台嚙磕嚙諍國的嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭`嚙諄。
嚙盤 嚙瞌嚙踝蕭~嚙諉唯一嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瞎嚙瘩嚙箠嚙綞嚙磕嚙磕嚙賠建堆蕭嚙踝蕭嚙瘤嚙緞嚙瘡嚙踝蕭嚙瘠
嚙踝蕭 嚙踟公然嚙瘩嚙箠嚙璀嚙綞嚙磕嚙踝蕭嚙踝蕭A嚙瑾嚙踝蕭@嚙踝蕭A嚙羯嚙罵嚙瞋嚙窯嚙皚嚙踝蕭嚙瘠

Tsao, Rocky

unread,
Apr 23, 2012, 10:00:59 PM4/23/12
to Jerome F. Keating, ching chen, natpa forum, I_love_taiwan group

I refrained from giving Professor Jerome F. Keating a lecture on Logic 101.  It was a mistake.

 

Professor Keating should have learned decades ago that while all monks have shaved heads, those who have shaved heads are not necessarily monks.

 

By the same token, Chiang Kai-Shek extolled good values, yet not all who also extol good values are CKSs.

 

Apparently, with a muddled mind that cannot logically process specific facts, Jerome labeled me CKS when I pointed out that CSB is a passé as most Taiwanese no longer see him as someone who has good values.

 

No, I am no CKS.  I have no political ambition whatsoever.  It is my goal to practice and preach good values, the religion of an agnostic, while poking fun at feeble-minded egotists.

 

One of my WUFI friends told me that Jerome is a WUFI advisor.  Why did I bring up this specific fact?  Jerome probably should have tried to convince WUFI members first that CSB is a KMT threat.

 

A question for Professor Keating:  Should discussion about CSB and CKS be limited to the NATPA forum?

Believing that CSB is no longer influential given his shipping a huge amount of money overseas, I raised a question that many would ask: “What are the good values behind these slogans?”

 

What was wrong with mentioning good values in this specific context, instead of in a vacuum?

 

What was the basis for Jerome to launch an attack at me in response:  “Good values is the last refuge of _________"?

I believe that Jerome is not a _________.  It appears to me that he just has a muddled mind that cannot process specific facts.  In any event, Jerome will always have followers worshipping him, such as Taitzer.

 

By the way, not all WUFI leaders agree with Jerome, a WUFI advisor, that CSB is a threat, not an ATM machine, to the KMT.  It is an issue on which WUFI should reach a consensus soon.

 

Finally, on Jerome’s “Rocky, I think your slip is showing,” I only followed what several have done, i.e., posting messages on both the NATPA and I-L-T forums.  Is NATPA’s “dirty laundry” (e.g., Jerome having a muddled mind?) showing?  So what?  Admission is the first step to reform.

Subject: Re: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

Let's be in the shoes of Uncle Sam. In other word, how have the U.S. seen CSB?  

 

CSB was/is the SURPRISE machine to the U.S.  That's why U.S. President George W Bush publicly scolded CSB.  For example, the US "opposed" CSB's proposal of combining joining UN refeerendum with 2008 presidential election.  Many Green camp Taiwanese cheered CSB for having guts to stand up against Uncle Sam.  Frankly, I too felt soong/good then.  Unfortunately, now we know the consequences of surprising and going against Uncle Sam.  Do we still wonder why the U.S. officially favored Ma over the DPP presidential candidates not only in March 2008 but also January 2012???

 

Ma 9, on the other hand, has been the ATM machine to the U.S. even though more so to the PRC.

 

You can name the scapegoat from different perspectives. 

 

 

 

 


From: "Tsao, Rocky" <Ts...@ortpatent.com>


To: 'Raymond Lee' <rayl...@hotmail.com>; "natpa...@googlegroups.com" <natpa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: I_love_taiwan group <i_love...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 2:55 PM

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA]

請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

Yes, “CSB is a machine gun against the KMT” is a myth and “CSB is an ATM machine for the KMT” is a truth.

 

 


Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:42 PM
To: natpa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [NATPA Forum] Re: [BATA] 請看阿扁高喊台灣獨立建國的影片

 

The film was made after not before CSB left his office.  CSB and some leaders of this movement need each other in this 高喊"台灣獨立建國