Hello to all, I have a question about hurdy wheel theory
maraujo
scattered hurdy gurdy enthusiasts. I am currently planing my own
hurdy gurdy design. I'm going adapt a old cello body to make a large
musical furniture piece with legs. I would like to use cello strings
for a deeper tone than a conventional hurdy gurdy but this leaves me
with some critical design questions. Here are three of the more
important ones...
1. Wheel Diameter/Thickness:
If I'm using a longer vibrational length of string would it be wise to
use a larger diameter wheel? I would think it takes more energy to
get the string humming and thus I should use a larger diameter so that
the outside edge of the wheel has a higher speed. Should the
thickness of the wheel be increased as well? Say an 8" diameter with
a 1 1/2" thickness?
2. Wheel Placement:
Ive had a very difficult time finding a rule for what fraction of the
string should be between the center line of the wheel and the bridge.
I have examined some plans and found a range of variable distances
people use. Should I scale up existing plans for the longer string,
or is this distance generally constant for all string lengths?
3. Handle radius:
Is there any rule for the radius of the handle as compared to that of
the wheel? This is obviously not as important because I can quickly
change out the handle if its just based on user comfort/style.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my questions. I
would appreciate any incite you have no matter how brief.
George Leverett-Altarwind Hurdy Gurdies
fiddle' - I really love the idea of recycling one instrument into something
new. Although it seems to me that a cello body would be a bit large ?
I haven't seen any replies to this yet, so I'll throw in my two cents:
1) Wheel thickness /diameter: Whatever other responses you get on this, it
probably bears mentioning that you want to make sure to make the wheel in
such a way that it won't be affected by temperature / humidity changes.
Wood swells along grain lines, so if you use a single piece of wood you will
likely have a wheel that is circular part of the wheel, and oval shaped at
other times. A wheel built of multiple layers of wood works well, with the
grain alternating directions for each layer. This will prevent seasonal
distortions of the wheel. I like Baltic birch, although some very talented
makers are using other types of wood products (I think I recall seeing MDF
at one point?) Of course there's no reason why you can't build up the
layers yourself either. An 8" wheel would work, but man! what a large
instrument. The larger the wheel, the larger the instrument has to be to
accommodate it. Generally speaking you tend not to see hurdy gurdies with a
wheel much larger than 7"; I feel that this is likely for ergonomic reasons-
in that it produces strain on the wrists & forearms to wield such an
instrument. Thickness: Usually a 3/4" wheel is pretty adequate, maybe a
smidge thicker for that large of strings. I don't know what your scale
length is, but I would think 1 & 1/2" would be a bit overkill
2) Placement: With hurdy gurdies you tend to see the bridge as close as
possible to the wheel. Why is this? The wheel behaves like a violin bow,
but then violinists play with their bow much further from their bridge. By
increasing the distance between the wheel & bridge, you might gain a little
in resonance (most noticeable in lower midrange frequencies to my ears), but
then the arc of vibration of the strings increases too, and you may have
issues of chatter against the tangents.
3) Handle radius: you don't want this any larger than the wheel, and usually
you tend to see them a little smaller. Setting it up this way makes playing
more about the 'wrist' and less about the elbow. Although I've never
fooled around with an 8" wheel so this is based on experience with a wheel
size of 6-7". With an 8" wheel you might want a considerably smaller radius
(in terms of ratio).
I'm really itching to see how this turns out for you. Best of luck
Cheers,
George
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Anthony Shostak
> By increasing the distance between the wheel & bridge, you might gain
> a little in resonance (most noticeable in lower midrange frequencies
> to my ears), but then the arc of vibration of the strings increases
> too, and you may have issues of chatter against the tangents.
same, the distance from wheel to bridge should not make effect the
viibrational arc, because the scale length is determined by the distance
from bridge to saddle. Otherwise, the pitch of a violin would be
different when bowing close to bridge than when bowing closer to the
fingerboard. No?
Anthony
Arle Lommel
-Arle
Arle Lommel
-Arle
On Jan 20, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Anthony Shostak wrote:
Graham Whyte
The part of the string on the peg/nut side of the depressed tangent does
not vibrate
Because the bridge to wheel distance is fixed, HG players cannot
compensate for this as different keys are pressed
Guitar and bowed instrument players can and do compensate
In the 19th century Nicolas Colson made 2 styles of HGs with wheels
closer and further away from the bridge
Chris Allen has historic examples of both styles
My own Colson has the wider spacing and is so rich and sweet
Graham
maraujo
think I have a plan...
So, going by the dimensions of a standard 4/4 cello, my vibrational
length would be about 23.5". It seems my best bet is to maximize the
overtones of the drone strings by having 1/12 of the total vibrational
length between the bridge and the center line of the wheel (for 23.5"
that would be about 1.96") this should, in theory, give me the first 6
harmonics of the string? I guess I would want that fraction to be a
little less for the melody strings so that I get the most overtones I
can as the tangents shorten the length. Im using an online fret-
calculator for my tangent positions.
As for the wheel itself, It seems an 8" x 1" wheel would be somewhat
properly scaled to my new dimensions? I need to do some more research
before I start making the wheel. I'm new to working with wood, I
mostly work with metal for my job so for ease I had planned on turning
the wheel out of a solid piece of walnut of preferably bigleaf maple
(as suggested by the Hackmann's website) can anybody suggest any good
wood alternatives? Am I making a serious error by not using layers of
laminate (maybe laminate is not the right term to use) wood for the
rim? I understand that some expansion will occur along the grain but
I am clueless as to how to laminate a wheel.
Thanks again for all your help.
Melvin Dorries
Greetings Maraujo,
My encouragement to you on your project. You will learn sooooo much by doing this.
Looks like your on the right track with the harmonics at this string length. Remember to allow enough room for string excursion at this string length as it will be much more than a conventional sized HG.
Though you could use solid wood to make a wheel such wheels tend to distort over time and become eccentric. Also, they are prone to swelling and shrinking much more than laminated wheels. It would be almost impossible to find the proper piece of wood for this application from a wood supplier as it would need to be a slice of the tree through its diameter such that the growth rings are circular and emenating from the center of the wheel. It cannot be made from not slab cut or quarter sawn wood which is most common. If you were able to find such a slice of wood it would have to be well dried without cracking . Though some supply houses offer such wood for bowl turners it is usually wet and develops radial cracking as it becomes dry.
I would like to recommend that you stick with a laminated wheel. We have used these for years now and find them to be very good wheels. You do not have to do the lamiation work yourself as many wood supply houses sell hi quality void free baltic birch plywood in 5' x5' sheets. Yes, it is expensive but the wheel is the heart of the instrument and must not be compromised in quality.
If you would like we can send you a high quality laminated wheel blank for about $15 as well as any other parts you may need to build your HG. Contact us off line if interested.
Good luck on your project and show us some pictures when its done!
Hurdygurdycrafters.com
Mel and Ann
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Ernic Kamerich
I hope that we can hear and see the results when it is ready, I am very curious.
I don't see how you can make a hurdy gurdy from a cello that can be played by one person, I would think that you would need a key system that moves the tangents from some distance or play it with two persons as the medieval organistrum. Anyhow, you will know what you are aiming at.
I write you because I saw in your email, rather hidden between the (important) wheel discussions:
Im using an online fret-calculator for my tangent positions.
Such fret-calculators will yield modern equal temperament, generally. Many hurdy gurdy players are not happy with this temperament, so you might think about alternatives. Anyhow, you might read the articles of Graham Whyte and me on these subjects:
http://www.hurdygurdy.org/pdfs/tuningandtemperament.pdf
http://www.orfeo-fiato.nl/hurdy_gurdy_tuning.html
and calculators for this can be found on
http://www.orfeo-fiato.nl/positions.ods
http://www.hurdygurdy.org/pdfs/JustTangentPositions.xls
If you have questions on this subject, I will try to help you.
Ernic