Golden Wood hurdy gurdy album link

[California Dave]

Here is a link to a Facebook album from my studio of the vielle I've been making.  When finished this will be my 120th or thereabouts instrument but my first hurdy gurdy. Any comments or observations would be greatly appreciated!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.248449061904577.59202.100002184552554&type=1&l=4693e7fb6a

Thanks
Dave Bucher, citteraro
The Golden Wood Stringed Musical Instruments.

[Arle Lommel]

I note that you're using coil return springs. I'm curious why you decided to do that rather than using a gravity return? Relatively few makers use springs. Not saying not to do, but curious more about your rationale.

-Arle

[Melvin Dorries]

Hi Dave,

 

Really sweet piece of work!

 

The jointery is superb the bowl looks great (Australian Lacewood?) interesting spring mechanism and round ends on the keys even ball bearings too. 

For a first attempt at design and execution this is just outstanding.

 

There are some things I see that you may want to consider doing differently next time but then again if it does what you want ... so be it.

 

1. I suggest that you install ball bearings on the shaft ends only and do not use one under the bridge area in favor of a clearance hole for the shaft to pass through. This allows that especially important area around the bridge and bridge brace to vibrate more freely and thus increases response, tone quality and volume.

 

2. I don't know what you used to couple the top braces to the lower but when I build I look for the coupling to be light strong flexable and a good conductor of sound. 

Much like a violin or cello I choose a spruce dowell or sometimes a spruce stick with small rectangle section turned the opposite of what yours is, again to facilitate the bridge braces' movement. Some builders do not even glue in this sound post in favor of inhanced movement.

 

3. It looks like the lower row of keys is a long distance from the top row. We shoot for no more than 1/8" between the top row and the bottom. This greatly shortens the tangent length and helps eliminate keyflex and lifting torque that can cause excess key slap on the belly side of the keychest when a key is pressed in. But then again your spring system may reduce this to a negligable amount.

 

Enough for now. I fear that to many suggestions tend toward the negative and this is a time for rejoicing. You did it!

 

How does it sound?

 

All the best 

Mel  

 

   

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[California Dave]

Well, your question, or observation, answers a question of mine.  I had mentioned that I had some new ideas.  The trapped compression spring key return was one of them.  clearly this is not an entirely new idea.  I'm not surprised.  As a musical instrument maker I have designed many ways of doing things that subsequently I've discovered others using in part or entirely whole!  This instrument is being made from whole cloth by me with only photos, art and some early drawings of construction.  The idea of using gravity to reset keys seemed limited.  So...I designed something engineers have used for hundreds of years.  Anybody else have any insights into this?  Is, or are there, known problems with this approach?


Dave Bucher

[Scott]

Hello Dave,

Although the springs seem like a natural idea they are actually going to cause problems in playing. The spring is going to wear your fingers out extremely quick. The only reason that a spring would be used is if the instrument were to lay flat on a table. Gravity keys have been used for centuries and are perfectly fuctional. The only change in keys that I notice make a significant difference is to have slightly thicker keys, the weight allows them to fall a bit quicker. However, all you need to do is listen to a player like Patrick Bouffard to hear that the action of the gravity keys ia so quick that is supports really fast playing.
I have seen rubber bands stretched across all of the keys to assist in key return but they really are redundant addition that can be more problem than they are worth.

Also, if you place a thick bracing rib along the back, or what would be considered the spine of the bowl, it eliminates the need for the boat like bracing that you have on the sides of your bowl.

Scott

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[Arle Lommel]

A few nyckelharpa makers regularly use return springs and their instruments seem to be fine, so it's not a bad idea. There was a period in the 80s when a lot of nyckelharpa makers used them, but most abandoned them because they just weren't needed. That's not to say that there aren't cases where they might not be beneficial, but for most players they were an added complexity with no real payoff. I don't think they were ever as common on the HG.

Like Scott, I would be concerned about the longevity of springs, even if they are easy to replace. The springs will probably wear out long before your wooden parts will. However, if your requirements are different from most players, the springs may make sense. For me the question would be whether the additional complexity and maintenance is offset by whatever advantage you hoped to provide (and you do mention that “using gravity to reset keys seemed limited” so clearly you have some limitations in mind that you’d like to overcome).

I've actually been experimenting with some designs (well, not experimenting yet: more like diagramming and playing around at that level) more radical than what you show where spring returns would be vital since gravity return would be insufficient. So I'm certainly not saying springs are wrong :-)

-Arle

[Drewstix45]

I agree with Scott. Springs seem to be a really good idea, but in
practice as stated they tire out your fingers very quickly. Czech
Hurdy gurdies can be found with spring mechanisms. I have tried this
idea, but abandoned it as trying to find a spring that has a touch
weight, the reality behind the idea being precisely this, is very
difficult. The most successful I found until recently was old xray
photographs. A strip cut to the thickness of each key slide and bent
and placed behind the key end, so when positioned forms an arc between
the key end and tangent box. The thickness and 'springiness' of the
material allowed for a quick return of the keys in a horizontal
position, but did not tire out the fingers. However, after further
digging and research on this aspect of gurdy key slides having some
form of 'mechanical action' have found, for me, the definitive
solution - magnets. Small neodymium magnets -3mm diameter with a Gauss
value of 6000 when positioned with opposing poles and at the correct
distance from each other will give a resistant force of 50gm. This
allows the player to have the sensation of weight in the key slide and
the opposing forces allowing for very precise and clear articulation
in fast passages of music - trills etc.

Andrew

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[Bruce Nally]

I am also a builder of  nyckelharpa and player and most nyckelharpa players do not use any return spring mechanisms. but quite a few including myself use a method perfected by Sören Åhker a master builder. I will try to describe this.  where the keys exit the back of the key box "the keys are almost flush to the back of the key box"  a second back wall is constructed aprox 1/2 inch  from the back of the key box, inside of this gap created by the two back walls, is placed a sheet of loose cell foam.  when the keyt is pressed there is no pressure on the Key until the tangent reaches  the string, the back of the key is now compressing the foam and when it is released the key is pushed forward by the foam.  the effect, it eliminates sticking keys and there is no pressure on the players fingers that a spring would create.  the other effect is you cannot see the back of the keys emerging from the key box,   I am building a keybox for a hurdy gurdy using this and layered keyboxes used in nyckelharpa. a picture would show this better

 

Bruce   

 

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Drewstix45 <

 

 

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[Arle Lommel]

Bruce,

Thanks for sharing the solution of using foam. It would nicely solve
the problem I was facing in my conceptual design for a keyboard and
with a much simpler mechanism than I envisioned. Plus it would help
reduce key noise as well.

-Arle

[Leonard Williams]

I remember seeing a Kelischek (Brasstown, NC) symphonia with a large rubber band to return the keys.

Regards,
Leonard Williams
           _
         [: :]
        / |  | \
       |  |  |  |
       (_==_)
           !~¿

[cwhill]

Was it designed so are is it a "quick fix". I know I have used a band or
two if the humidity has been a bit high and a key was sticking slightly
but not badly enough to fiddle with it just to bring the return speed
back a little (then removed it when things got better).

Colin Hill

On 20/02/2012 22:30, Leonard Williams wrote:
> I remember seeing a Kelischek (Brasstown, NC) symphonia with a large
> rubber band to return the keys.
>
> Regards,
> Leonard Williams
> _
> [: :]
> / | | \
> | | | |
> (_==_)

> !~�
>
>
>
>
>
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[Leonard Williams]

I believe it was designed with the rubber band key-return. Any pictures of
it in use had the keys horizonally aligned--no gravity return.

Leonard

[Dennis Sherman]

I have one of those. The rubber band isn't necessary if you tilt the
instrument. As I recall, the idea was to be able to set the symphony on a table
to play. There's no dog, just melody and two drones. Hang it on a neck strap
and play sitting or standing, and the rubber band is unneeded.

--
Dennis Sherman
Chicago, IL, USA
http://www.dennissherman.com

----- Original Message ----
> From: Leonard Williams <arc...@verizon.net>
> To: Hurdy-Gurdy List <hurdy...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, February 20, 2012 7:41:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [HG-new] Golden Wood hurdy gurdy album link
>

[California Dave]

Thanks for all the replies.  Keep them coming!  Also, if you, each of you, have not looked at the album, the link for which I posted initially, please do so.

First, the design, such as it is, is influenced by two principal sources.  One are the hurdy gurdys of Michael Huppert in northern California, Mendocino county, where I am from. 

Two, there is an old drawing in Doreen Muskett's book that shows a similar bracing design and as a lute maker I realized that the wheel and bearings should be stoutly braced so as to stand up to vigorous playing.  The bearings are set in ebony floating surrounds and epoxied in place in a refractory fashion after the mechanism was well established.  Wood expands and contracts and is subject to hygroscopic changes that I wished to control.  I will make the next one differently by using a material with a higher modulus.  The braces I used are quarter sawn old heart western Red cedar I milled myself.  500 year old wood.  Thinner pieces of Larch or Douglas fir or simple Sitka spruce would be better.A lute bowel needs to be very light...almost a "hot air balloon" really and that is simply too light a construction for a mechanical device or engine, if you will. 

About the entrapped compression springs...the design is very simple with few and readily made parts.  Each key shaft is milled and then the cylindrical section is lathe-turned.  They will not wear out for any foreseeable time.  Now the issue of finger fatigue may be a concern but as I can play a guitar, zook and even a bass for six-eight straight hours and survive I wonder how that will be.  Since I am not a "gurdyest" I can only take your words for it!  The centers for the turned ends of the key shafts will serve as pilot holes for screw attachment of a wooden washer or keeper and the weight of the action is quite adjustable.  I have repaired a few Clavichords  which have an action that depends more on the spring action of the strings rather than any gravity or other weighted return.  Since I figured that I'd play this baby on my lap sometimes that these spring return action would be a good idea.  I will put up further photos as I continue this project.

One thing I will be doing is casting a bronze crank for the instrument which should be fun.  I try to stay away from metal pieces in my instruments if I can, and tailpieces and bridges are always wood, dense wood to be sure but wood none the less, but I think a beautiful bronze crank would not be too far out of line, no?

Thank you all.  More ideas are welcome.

Dave Bucher

[Cali Hackmann]

I have to laugh just a bit here. Alden and I came up with this idea (the magnets) about 10 years ago. We decided not to because most of the time it really isn't necessary. But it sure is fun trying to solve the collection of problems generated by this instrument we all love and love to complain about :-) Cali Hackmann

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[California Dave]

Mel,  Thank you for the kind words. The woodworking and fabrication is easy for me.  The design is the challenge.  I have made so many kinds of instruments resorting to regular output of CBOM instruments as they are in a small but always growing class.  This instrument is not being made from published plans or anything like that.  I have designed it from knowledge of music theory, engineering and as an artist.  How it looks is very important.

One of your points I most definitely consider.  The two rows of key shafts need to be closer together.  I had overlooked the idea of the tangents having long posts that will having greater force placed on the lower set. 

About the setting of bearings farther from the bridge, I will consider it next time.  many of the instruments I've made over the years have monstrous tension on them with 250 or more lbs exerted from string pull.  I made a 26 string Harp-cittern with 14 unison strings on the fingerboard and the remaining pairs fixed into a glued on pin bridge.  I had the dubious learning experience of having my first whole instrument, a guitar, begin to fold up a week after stringing.  This was 22 years ago and since I've learned to build to the anticipated loads.  In an attempt to get the wheel to be as solid as possible I placed the bridge just behind the first bearing so as to allow the feet to rest on the unbraced portion of the top.  I can see redesigning this next time. 

The posts that hold the bearings  and couple them with the top braces are ebony.  I cut and carved the braces with mortices for the post to fit into.  Perhaps overbuilt?  The bearings are set in a floating fashion in the ebony "pillow block" with epoxy in a refractory fashion.  Since the bearing block has some play in it as, a pillow block does, I hop[e that the shaft will not bind as the wood flexes.

It is not finished yet so I don't know how it will sound but I have lathe turned the wheel and when I bend and glue the rim of the wheel I will chuck it up into the lathe for a final truing.

Tanks for the compliments.  I definitely love your instruments too!

Dave Bucher

The Golden Wood Stringed Musical Instruments.

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