Rockford Files
Stephen Grossman
since then. There are reruns now and they confirm my judgement that its
acting, plot, dialog, directing, etc. make this the best TV show. Even the
minor characters are done well.
Recently Ive watched the show within Rands alternative of reason or evade.
Rockford, whatever his occasional cynicism and anti-business view, is a
hero who is always in focus, his mind always working on clues. This
contrasts very dramatically to Angel, the comic sidekick who is a master
of evasion.
--
==========================================================
Reason is the basic means of human survival. AYN RAND
----------------------------------------------------------
Tracking Marxist dialectical revolution: ZigZag
Radically systematic radical metaphysics: Existence 2
http://home.att.net/~sdgross
----------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Grossman Fairhaven, MA, USA sdg...@att.net
==========================================================
David Buchner
> I watched the original Rockford Files in the 70s and most of the reruns
> since then. There are reruns now and they confirm my judgement that its
> acting, plot, dialog, directing, etc. make this the best TV show. Even the
> minor characters are done well.
>
> Recently Ive watched the show within Rands alternative of reason or evade.
> Rockford, whatever his occasional cynicism and anti-business view, is a
> hero who is always in focus, his mind always working on clues. This
> contrasts very dramatically to Angel, the comic sidekick who is a master
> of evasion.
You're right, of course. Terrific show. Especially when I look back at
lots of what else was on TV in that era. Much of it seems downright
childish or amateurish now. I guess TV back then deserved a lot of the
"boob tube" derision heaped on it by the "intellectuals" (I caught a bit
of "Wonder Woman" on the Sci-Fi Channel a couple weeks ago. Yikes!).
Empty mindless crap churned out for the sole purpose of selling soap.
But Rockford still holds up as witty and real.
I hadn't thought of Rockford in a specifically "Objectivist" light
before, though. You come up with some of the oddest insights. There's a
hero who always uses his solid commonsense intelligence to solve
problems...
--
David
Buc...@wcta.net Osage MN USA
Stephen Grossman
<buc...@wcta.net> wrote:
> Stephen Grossman <sdg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > I watched the original Rockford Files in the 70s and most of the reruns
> > since then. There are reruns now and they confirm my judgement that its
> > acting, plot, dialog, directing, etc. make this the best TV show. Even the
> > minor characters are done well.
> >
> > Recently Ive watched the show within Rands alternative of reason or evade.
> > Rockford, whatever his occasional cynicism and anti-business view, is a
> > hero who is always in focus, his mind always working on clues. This
> > contrasts very dramatically to Angel, the comic sidekick who is a master
> > of evasion.
>
> You're right, of course. Terrific show. Especially when I look back at
> lots of what else was on TV in that era.
this era is worse, in amount if not quality. exceptions: frasier, becker
> I hadn't thought of Rockford in a specifically "Objectivist" light
> before, though. You come up with some of the oddest insights.
you may call me Oddjob...
There's a hero who always uses his solid commonsense intelligence to solve
> problems...
it seems to be more than common sense but less than explicit logic.
Rockfish often states his reasoning, not merely when hes solved the case
but along the way.
Arnold Broese-van-Groenou
Stephen Grossman <sdg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:sdgross-1506...@154.cambridge-23-24rs.ma.dial-access.att.net..
..
> this era is worse, in amount if not quality. exceptions: frasier, becker
I like these too. Must be because they look into the personality with
honesty.
--
Arnold
Stephen Grossman
Broese-van-Groenou <bro...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
the characters display intelligence above the pop culture level of
Brittany Spears and rap. Many sitcoms pander to an aggressive stupidity
--
==========================================================
McFarland gasped as the door creaked open to
reveal bad writing and no editorial guidance.
JoeOrrion
Brittany Spears and rap. Many sitcoms pander to an aggressive stupidity >>
a lot of rap is quite smart. Racist bastard.
Joe Teicher
Arnold Broese-van-Groenou
JoeOrrion <joeo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618023300...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
Does this mean you think the music one likes is dependent on race?
If not, in what way was your comment meant to imply the person who didn't
like rap was racist. A racist is one who believes the content of one's mind
is genetically determined. That seems to be the position you take.
The music one likes has nothing to do with race. That is a racist position.
--
Arnold
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
Can you hum a rap tune? I doubt it.
Rap music, as a form, is base and irrational.
That is why it appeals to so many dysfunctional
and confounded people.
Bob Kolker
thesubu...@webtv.net
always mystified by some unknown ghost or monster or what not, always to
be explained rationally in the end. Hmmm...... :-))
Andy Lucas
> a lot of rap is quite smart. Racist bastard.
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<3B2DD8E8
.2FB2...@mediaone.net>:
> Can you hum a rap tune? I doubt it.
I dislike almost all rap music I've ever heard, but I think a fan
would be able to hum back some of the basslines or the choruses (which
often feature females singing actually melodies, however annoying they
may be to me).
I wish people in general would be more precise when criticizing music
they dislike but often haven't even heard instead of just trying to
think of the biggest Objecti-insult possible to show off how
`Rational' they are.
> Rap music, as a form, is base and irrational.
>
> That is why it appeals to so many dysfunctional
> and confounded people.
I think I agree if you mean rap music like Snoop Doggy Dogg (what a
goofy name), other gangster rappers, and (c)rap-metal.
Way back when I was a tot, however, people like Eddie Murphy made
"rap" music that was pretty amusing as far as I recall.
Even the gangster-rapper Dr. Dre has some mildly interesting (to me)
bass lines and rhythmns sometimes. I just find it frustrating as a
whole because it is so repetitive and could have been made much more
interesting with better drum fills and vocalizations (like some
singing and some rests (silences))!
When I go to music stores, I always find some guy playing hip-hop/rap
music on the keyboards. It always sounds so dissonant and disturbing.
That's okay used sparsely and in context, but the guy will go on
forever. Apparently it makes some sort of sense to him, for whatever
that's worth.
As a general rule I find it nearly useless to condemn or praise entire
genres across the board without naming specific artists, because
people have difference conceptions of the boundaries of each genre.
For example, if you say "heavy metal is consciousness-smashing
death-worshipping mind-hating nihilistic icky poo," I would agree if
you were referring to `death metal' bands like Cannibal Corpse. On the
other hand, my best friend's father (a biology professor) loves the
'70s group Deep Purple and considers it classic rock, while at a time
it was definitely considered heavy metal and usually still is.
Andy
JoeOrrion
> Brittany Spears and rap. Many sitcoms pander to an aggressive stupidity
>>
>
> a lot of rap is quite smart. Racist bastard.
>
> Joe Teicher
Does this mean you think the music one likes is dependent on race?
If not, in what way was your comment meant to imply the person who didn't
like rap was racist. A racist is one who believes the content of one's mind
is genetically determined. That seems to be the position you take.
The music one likes has nothing to do with race. That is a racist position. >>
You seem to have misunderstood my post. The original post said that rap was
unintelligent. I pointed out that that is a false overgeneralization.
Furthermore, rap is the music of modern black youth in america. To say that
their chosen method of musical expression is unintelligent is pretty much to
say that they are unintelligent, which is racist, you bastard.
Joe Teicher
Arnold Broese-van-Groenou
[In reply to S. Grossman]
> > a lot of rap is quite smart. Racist bastard.
> >
> > Joe Teicher
>
> Does this mean you think the music one likes is dependent on race?
> If not, in what way was your comment meant to imply the person who didn't
> like rap was racist. A racist is one who believes the content of one's
mind
> is genetically determined. That seems to be the position you take.
> The music one likes has nothing to do with race. That is a racist
position. >>
>
>
> You seem to have misunderstood my post. The original post said that rap
was
> unintelligent. I pointed out that that is a false overgeneralization.
> Furthermore, rap is the music of modern black youth in america. To say
that
> their chosen method of musical expression is unintelligent is pretty much
to
> say that they are unintelligent, which is racist, you bastard.
I don't misunderstand your post, because once again you consider the
criticism of music tastes, as criticism of genetic make-up. There are
blacks who prefer classical, or jazz to rap. Does that make them racist too?
A racist is one who thinks that the thoughts and feelings and tastes of a
person are racially determined. For example, that Jews are greedy, or Blacks
like rap
because of their race.
Now if you wish to criticise the original poster of being a cultural snob,
you may have a valid point, since it is his choice. It is also a choice he
may also happily prefer and defend.
--
Arnold
David Buchner
You're right! But you know what's even weirder? I saw a Scooby Doo movie
on the Cartoon Network a while back - which was new, and had been remade
in the style of the orginal with (I suppose) different artists and
voicers. And in THIS one, the thing they were fighting actually turned
out to be a real ghost or something instead of the usual hoax, and they
had to defeat it by whatever supernatural methods one uses for such
things.
Weird. Sign of the times, or what?
(Did you see the South Park where they did a Scooby Doo -type story? The
one with "That band, 'Corn'" in it?)
David Buchner
> > say that their chosen method of musical expression is unintelligent is
> > pretty much to say that they are unintelligent, which is racist, you
> > bastard.
I don't know. All the rap I hear is thumping out of the cars of
midwestern suburban white kids on summer vacation, with lewd
bumperstickers and wearing backwards baseball caps.
You bastard.
JoeOrrion
> their chosen method of musical expression is unintelligent is pretty much
to
> say that they are unintelligent, which is racist, you bastard.
I don't misunderstand your post, because once again you consider the
criticism of music tastes, as criticism of genetic make-up. There are
blacks who prefer classical, or jazz to rap. Does that make them racist too?
A racist is one who thinks that the thoughts and feelings and tastes of a
person are racially determined. For example, that Jews are greedy, or Blacks
like rap
because of their race.
Now if you wish to criticise the original poster of being a cultural snob,
you may have a valid point, since it is his choice. It is also a choice he
may also happily prefer and defend.
--
Arnold
>>
Here are two statements:
I don't like Arnold.
Arnold is unintelligent.
Do these statements mean the same thing? If not, then I'm right and you are
wrong, you bastard.
Joe Teicher
JoeOrrion
midwestern suburban white kids on summer vacation, with lewd
bumperstickers and wearing backwards baseball caps.
You bastard. >>
Well, that may be because you never go near any actual black people. If you
did, you might find that they liked rap music too (maybe not, but probably).
Stop being so oppressive,whitey.
Joe Teicher
Kwag7693
Are you as hard on black people who don't care for country music and say nasty
things about it? Would you tell someone who said country music sucked that
they were basically saying that anyone who liked it sucked too? Your paper
thin p.c. sensibilities are oppressing me. As for most black people liking
rap, you are just plain wrong. Mostly younger black people like it; just like
younger white and hispanic people.
Kevin
Robert J. Kolker
Kwag7693 wrote:
> rap, you are just plain wrong. Mostly younger black people like it; just
> like
> younger white and hispanic people.
Rap "music". Just the thing for the young and mindless.
Bob Kolker
JoeOrrion
>did, you might find that they liked rap music too (maybe not, but probably).
>Stop being so oppressive,whitey.
>
>Joe Teicher
Are you as hard on black people who don't care for country music and say nasty
things about it? Would you tell someone who said country music sucked that
they were basically saying that anyone who liked it sucked too?>>
Well, I don't know much about country, so I probably wouldn't have much to say.
However, I think every artistic form should be respected if there are people to
take it seriously. I'm not sure that there are people who consider country
music anything other than relatively mindless entertainment. If there is no
serious artistic country music, and no group of people who feel strongly that
country music represents them culturally, then I really don't care what people
say about it. There is nothing wrong with calling something stupid if it is,
but all rap isn't stupid, and rap isn't stupid in principle. Claiming that rap
is stupid is ignorant, and racism is ignorant, so saying rap is stupid is
racist. That's logical isn't it?
<< Your paper
thin p.c. sensibilities are oppressing me. >>
I have no problem oppressing hate criminals.
<< As for most black people liking
rap, you are just plain wrong. Mostly younger black people like it; just like
younger white and hispanic people.
>>
Most black people are young. I think I read something like that, at least in
africa. But, of course, that doesn't help me because I have no idea if rap is
popular in africa. Oh well.
Joe Teicher
JoeOrrion
Bob Kolker >>
Hey Bob, can you name some popular rappers? You are an ignorant old white
bastard. Stick to math and physics. Hey, you know how quarks have color, but
none of them are black? Well, that's racist, and since you know that, you're
racist.
Joe Teicher
Arnold Broese-van-Groenou
> Claiming that rap
> is stupid is ignorant, and racism is ignorant, so saying rap is stupid is
> racist. That's logical isn't it?
For the third time, tell me the link between gentics and musical taste.
Tell me _why_ thinking something a person likes is stupid, says anything
about race. What is the link? If you find one, then you will be welcomed by
the racists, because that is what they think.
Let me explain this to you; what you like is not based on your race. It is
racist to say it is. Yet you are saying just that. You think telling someone
you don't like his musical tasts is saying something about his race. It is
not. You can _choose_ what you think, but you can't choose your race. It is
because you can choose, that your choices are open to judgement, and we
don't need censors to tell us what we can judge.
--
Arnold
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
There is a gene for rap? What is racist about not liking that
noise?
Bob Kolker
Kwag7693
>Hey Bob, can you name some popular rappers? You are an ignorant old white
>bastard.
So Joe, are you a black racist or just a guilty white racist? Who cares what
color Bob is? On top of it, not knowing contemporary [c]rappers is sufficient
to call someone ignorant on the whole? Keep up the good work. Rap must be
right up your alley. Much of rap's relative lack of sophistication, droning
repetitivness and glorification of murder, theft, sexism and any number of
other imprudent behaviors I expect to suit you well.
Kevin
Kwag7693
>Well, I don't know much about country, so I probably wouldn't have much to
>say.
Nice dodge. What I asked was were you as vitriolic to people with relatively
dark skin and of less mediate African descent who criticized country music and
also would you claim that anyone who criticized country music necessarily
criticized its listeners? The fact that you refused to answer is answer
enough, bigot.
>However, I think every artistic form should be respected if there are people
>to
>take it seriously. I'm not sure that there are people who consider country
>music anything other than relatively mindless entertainment.
Ignorant bigot.
>There is nothing wrong with calling something stupid if it is,
>but all rap isn't stupid, and rap isn't stupid in principle.
That certainly is your opinion. OTOH, much rap is premised upon remixing other
pieces of work, doesn't require a good singing voice and many popular rap
artists glorify anti-social behavior. That makes it both unsophisticated in
principle and in specific.
>Claiming that rap
>is stupid is ignorant, and racism is ignorant, so saying rap is stupid is
>racist. That's logical isn't it?
No. Not all ignorance is racist. Racism is a species of prejudice. There are
many other types of prejudice, and not even all prejudice is stupid. Some
types of prejudice (stereotyping) are necessarily to deal with a world in which
we find ourselves unable to predict with certainty what will occur next. At
best you could call Bob "musicist", and even that is questionable because when
compared to almost any type of music I can think of, rap is worse for the
comparison.
><< Your paper
>thin p.c. sensibilities are oppressing me. >>
>
>I have no problem oppressing hate criminals.
Ah, so you are right to be intolerant of people who have opinions different
than your own? If you really think country music is no good, then you are
right, but if Bob and I really think raps is no good then we are hate
criminals? You have a very high threshold for hypocrisy, racist bigot of
indeterminate and irrelevant color. Thugs like you abound on college campuses,
much to my dismay. What a short-sighted buffoon you are. I hope you wise up
relatively soon.
Yours in combatting P.C. thuggery,
Kevin
Robert J. Kolker
Kwag7693 wrote:
> right up your alley. Much of rap's relative lack of sophistication, droning
> repetitivness and glorification of murder, theft, sexism and any number of
> other imprudent behaviors I expect to suit you well.
Rap is the "music" of the Mud.
Bob Kolker
Tyler Duartes
71.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> Have you ever noticed the skeptic slant in scooby doo? The gang is
> always mystified by some unknown ghost or monster or what not, always to
> be explained rationally in the end. Hmmm...... :-))
Scooby Doo has been used as a mascot by several skeptic groups in the
past for this very reason.
Tyler Duartes
> You're right! But you know what's even weirder? I saw a Scooby Doo movie
> on the Cartoon Network a while back - which was new, and had been remade
> in the style of the orginal with (I suppose) different artists and
> voicers. And in THIS one, the thing they were fighting actually turned
> out to be a real ghost or something instead of the usual hoax, and they
> had to defeat it by whatever supernatural methods one uses for such
> things.
... and that's why they *stopped* using Scooby as a mascot!
> Weird. Sign of the times, or what?
Indeed it is. :-(
td
Jim Klein
news:20010620113044...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
>Much of rap's relative lack of sophistication, droning
>repetitivness and glorification of murder, theft, sexism and any number of
>other imprudent behaviors I expect to suit you well.
This is grossly unfair...about rap I mean, since I don't know the poster.
Rap is about life; one might even go so far as to say that it's the
selective recreation of a part of reality. That the lives it's about are so
different than yours, is not much of a comment at all. Hell, that's one of
_their_ points!
Caged rational animals can, and do, become ferocious. Most kids who are
partial to the rap genre--which is to say most kids--have a feeling, or a
hunch, that they're caged but don't really understand why beyond the trivial
fact that they have to listen to their parents and such. Successful rappers
do understand more of the "why" and their appeal to the younger generation
is their offer of this knowledge, such as it is.
Rational animals, caged or not, crave information.
It's only when those kids become older and buy into the age-old
rationalizations of why the wrong is "really" right--like the current
incantations about one's "context of knowledge" determining the truth--that
the simple truths expressed in much of rap can't be tolerated.
In epistemology, the true is better than the false. In ethics, honesty is
better than dishonesty. You can give me Eminem--gun and all--over Leonard
Peikoff, any day of the week. Eminem may talk about death aplenty, but you
won't catch him yapping about how murdering millions of innocent people
might somehow be right.
jk
Andy Lucas
Bob Kolker >>
JoeOrrion <joeo...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<20010620005055.14736.0
000...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
> Hey Bob, can you name some popular rappers? You are an ignorant old white
> bastard. Stick to math and physics. Hey, you know how quarks have color
> , but
> none of them are black? Well, that's racist, and since you know that, you're
> racist.
No, no, no, you have it all wrong. Bob IS a rapper. His new hit single
is called "Argumentum ad Scare Quotum in Yo Yo Yo Minor."
Andy
Kwag7693
>Rap is about life; one might even go so far as to say that it's the
>selective recreation of a part of reality. That the lives it's about are so
>different than yours, is not much of a comment at all. Hell, that's one of
>_their_ points!
>
Having listened to rap, especially "gansta" rap, I disagree. Of course it is a
selective recreation of reality. What they choose to focus on is what I
dislike. If they are focusing on life, they are intentionally focusing on a
highly immoral and imprudent life of which many tend only to portray the people
who get away with it. Raps about murdering the pizza delivery guy, containing
lines like (paraphrasing form a vague memory of BONE) "sorry, I just wanted
your money; it's just business" I don't take lightly. That people think that
way is no call to make glitzy videos and songs about rich, putatively
successful murderers.
As for the other points, do you dispute that much of rap is droning,
repetitive, lacking in anyone who can sing in key and intentionally
derivative?
>Most kids who are
>partial to the rap genre--which is to say most kids--have a feeling, or a
>hunch, that they're caged but don't really understand why beyond the trivial
>fact that they have to listen to their parents and such.
If you are building your argument on some kind of social determinism, you can
stop right now. Their cages, when they exist, are of their own conceptual
construction and one thing that isn't going to help them out is a video or a
rap star who in life touts shoot outs, drug dealing and sexism as creative
outlets for frustration.
>Successful rappers
>do understand more of the "why" and their appeal to the younger generation
>is their offer of this knowledge, such as it is.
Quick fixes are always appealing, because they seem easier than what is
actually required to succeed in many cases.
>It's only when those kids become older and buy into the age-old
>rationalizations of why the wrong is "really" right--like the current
>incantations about one's "context of knowledge" determining the truth--that
>the simple truths expressed in much of rap can't be tolerated.
Is "murder is prudent" a simple truth? Having heard rap songs and seen rap
videos, this is a message portrayed in rap. Now, it is also how the rap stars
behave, but it is still a dumb move.
>In epistemology, the true is better than the false. In ethics, honesty is
>better than dishonesty. You can give me Eminem--gun and all--over Leonard
>Peikoff, any day of the week.
Honesty is great, but wrong is still wrong.
>Eminem may talk about death aplenty, but you
>won't catch him yapping about how murdering millions of innocent people
>might somehow be right.
If he won't that is relatively good of him, because other rappers do.
Kevin
JoeOrrion
>>bastard.
>So Joe, are you a black racist or just a guilty white racist?
I'm clearly white, G.
>On top of it, not knowing contemporary [c]rappers is sufficient
>to call someone ignorant on the whole?
Well, it's enough to call him ignorant of rap. I don't think he is ignorant in
general, in fact he seems to be one of the most knowledgeable people in this
group. Words have context.
> Much of rap's relative lack of sophistication, droning
>repetitivness and glorification of murder, theft, sexism and any number
>of
>other imprudent behaviors I expect to suit you well.
It seems you are saying that much of rap lacks sophistication, is repetitive
and glorifies various illegal, immoral, unhealthy behaviors. I agree. However,
there are many exceptions and that is my point. If I notice that there are
many poorly written and unintelligent novels don't I still sound like an
asshole when I say "novels are stupid." Yes, I do, and the person who says "rap
is stupid" is just as big an asshole.
Joe Teicher
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
> << Rap "music". Just the thing for the young and mindless.
>
> Bob Kolker >>
>
> Hey Bob, can you name some popular rappers? You are an ignorant old white
> bastard.
Not a single one. I have no interest in learning the
names of rude fellows who have nothing to convey
to me that I would value.
I reject the culture of the mud categorically.
There are two types of mentalities in the world.
The Apollonian and the Dionesian. The Apollonian
is moved by judgement and intellect, the Dionesian
by emotions, urges and feelings.
I am an Apollonian and I don't associated gladly
with Dionesians. As long as they don't bother me
I don't bother with them.
Bob Kolker
JoeOrrion
>dark skin and of less mediate African descent who criticized country music
>and
>also would you claim that anyone who criticized country music necessarily
>criticized its listeners? The fact that you refused to answer is answer
>enough, bigot.
I don't think that saying "rap is stupid" insults all of raps fans, only the
people who take it seriously. Same with country. The only people I know who
like country consider it a form of entertainment, not art, and not something
with deep cultural relevance. That seems to be the attitude of many of the
artists also. Maybe there are groups of people who take country seriously, I
don't know. Besides, I'm allowed to pick my battles, aren't I? Just because I
feel like calling some racist a racist, I have to call every racist a racist
now? Damn.
>>Claiming that rap
>>is stupid is ignorant, and racism is ignorant, so saying rap is stupid
>is
>>racist. That's logical isn't it?
>
>No. Not all ignorance is racist. Racism is a species of prejudice. There
>are
>many other types of p
You saw through my brilliant proof. I guess it's back to the drawing board.
>
>>thin p.c. sensibilities are oppressing me. >>
>>
>>I have no problem oppressing hate criminals.
>
>Ah, so you are right to be intolerant of people who have opinions different
>than your own?
Not always, but that would be nice.
>You have a very high threshold for hypocrisy
Of course I do. I used to be an objectivist.
Joe Teicher
David Buchner
> > lots of what else was on TV in that era.
Stephen Grossman <sdg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> this era is worse, in amount if not quality. exceptions: frasier, becker
Yes, and... Buffy, Angel, Farscape, the Star Treks, South Park, Boston
Public, Gilmore Girls, X-Files, The Simpsons... I disagree. And that's
just *my* week. There's lots more stuff on that I've seen some of that's
good, but that I don't watch regularly for whatever reason. There's way
more good stuff on TV these days, on a regular basis, than in theaters.
And certainly way more than I remember from the 70's and 80's.
[bracing myself for the anticipated chorus of "you like WHAT?"s in
response to parts of my list...]
JoeOrrion
Different cultures have different musical traditions. To insult black culture
is to insult those black people who take it seriously.
>Tell me _why_ thinking something a person likes is stupid, says anything
>about race. What is the link? If you find one, then you will be welcomed
>by
>the racists, because that is what they think.
I think being kosher is stupid, and that should be taken as an insult by
orthodox jews, don't you think? Now, you may (and probably will) argue that an
orthodow jew is different than a black person, because the former chooses while
the latter doesn't. And I would agree, in that you probably don't want to lynch
the "good" blacks who where suits and participate in your white culture. The
people you are racist against are the people who participate in their own black
culture, of which rap is a part. And they choose to be the way they are. So,
in some sense race is a choice. How do you like that shit?
Joe Teicher
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
> So,
> in some sense race is a choice. How do you like that shit?
Race is determined by genetically inheritable characteristics,
primarily skin color because that is so obvious. Or by facial
characteristics (same reason). Any other grouping is not
a race.
Groups defined by language, geography, dominant cultural
values may be recognizable groups but they are not races.
Bob Kolker
Jason
> bastard. Stick to math and physics. Hey, you know how quarks have color
> , but
> none of them are black? Well, that's racist, and since you know that, you're
> racist.
>
> Joe Teicher
Tone Loc, Ice-T, Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambatta...oh wait, that's
80's rap - run away, run away!! In my midwestern town it is more
likely that it will be a white kid blasting blasting (c)rap. My
Indian (India) roomie has said to me several times "Don't they
[whites] know what they [rappers] are saying about them [whites] in
the music?" I just start laughing. My Kenyan (Africa) roomie views
(c)rappers and the folks who listen to (sh)it as quite goofy and
silly. He likes Journey (the band). You don't even want to know of
what he thinks of Jesse Jackson.
You can't be serious about your comments on quarks. How about the
fact that African-American History Month is the shortest month of the
year - now there's a true crusade! j/k
-J
http://carpediem.da.ru
JoeOrrion
>Bob Kolker
So, in some narrow semantic sense you are not a racist. Good for you! You
don't hate blacks for being black, just for acting black. Aren't you
enlightened.
Joe Teicher
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
> You
> don't hate blacks for being black, just for acting black. Aren't you
> enlightened.
Who is a bigot. Do you suppose ALL black folks act the same
way? I don't. I am a great admirer of Thomas Sole and Walter
Williams, both of who are darker than night. Why? Because of
their * ideas *. I do not confuse skin color with intellectual
content. One is a matter of melanin (an inherited characteristic)
and the other is a matter of ideas ( generally chosen).
I prefer reason to illogic, self control to wild abondon, even
temper to rage, productivity to destructiveness, honesty to
dishonesty...... Shall I go on. Whatever foot the shoe fits on
that is how I judge.
Having said all that, ask me if I will walk alone in Harlem
or Roxbury at night. Surely I will not and neither will you.
Bob Kolker
Larry Kulp
news:3B30C651...@mediaone.net...
> Rap is the "music" of the Mud.
Perhaps I am wrong about you. Maybe you do have appreciation for music
after all. But tell me, is your above comment an emotional response, or is
it analytical?
KULP
Larry Kulp
> There are two types of mentalities in the world.
> The Apollonian and the Dionesian. The Apollonian
> is moved by judgement and intellect, the Dionesian
> by emotions, urges and feelings.
>
> I am an Apollonian and I don't associated gladly
> with Dionesians. As long as they don't bother me
> I don't bother with them.
Is that why you are hostile to music-lovers in general?
In my opinion, one who is moved only by cold reason might as well be an
automaton. While reason enables us to successfully achieve our values, I
believe that the ultimate motivation for achieving those values lies in the
emotional rewards they bring. Happiness, joy, pleasure, anticipation,
excitement--those are the things which make life worth living. If your
values are not achieved without emotional rewards, then what is the point of
pursuing them. Life merely for life's sake? I would gladly trade a
lifetime of anesthetized rationalizing for an hour of pure joy.
In reading your posts, I get the impression that you would make the opposite
trade. Is that true? And why?
KULP, the Apollonian Dionysian.
Larry Kulp
news:3B3194AB...@mediaone.net...
> There are two types of mentalities in the world.
> The Apollonian and the Dionesian. The Apollonian
> is moved by judgement and intellect, the Dionesian
> by emotions, urges and feelings.
>
> I am an Apollonian and I don't associated gladly
> with Dionesians. As long as they don't bother me
> I don't bother with them.
Is that why you are hostile to music-lovers in general?
Robert J. Kolker
Larry Kulp wrote:
>
> In reading your posts, I get the impression that you would make the opposite
> trade. Is that true? And why?
I have deliberately narrowed my emotional range. The idea is
to get rid of compassion and pity which I consider defects and
rotting emotions. Rational indifference is the lowest energy state
and is most consistent with the laws of nature. Given two paths
to a goal, I choose the path of least action.
Pity rots. Compassion kills. More damage is done in
the name of love than in the name of hate. Love less,
think more.
Bob Kolker
David Buchner
> Caged rational animals can, and do, become ferocious. Most kids who are
> partial to the rap genre--which is to say most kids--have a feeling, or a
> hunch, that they're caged but don't really understand why beyond the trivial
> fact that they have to listen to their parents and such. Successful rappers
> do understand more of the "why" and their appeal to the younger generation
> is their offer of this knowledge, such as it is.
Well-said. Before that, there was punk rock.
And this explains why it's so popular with suburban (and now even
rural!) white kids: they're responding to
There's this irritating pest of a 16-year-old (white, rural) kid working
("working") at the Fleet store where I work who seems to have picked up
a lot of that urban-ghetto-rap-gang culture popularized on MTV and
wherever. It's weird to watch; funny and pathetic and surreal - he
struts around grabbing his crotch through his baggy pants, curling his
lip into a snarl and reciting bits of lyrics. And "threatening" to kick
everybody's ass. While he's supposed to be assembling lawnmowers.
I don't know if he's "relating to" something in the rap culture - or if
he's simply been shown it and told it's a Cool way to be, and it has no
deeper significance at all to him. I don't really care; I just kinda
wish he'd hurry up and get himself fired and get it over with.
I've noticed an explosion of these mixed-up characters around here in
the last few years.
Thing is - just because it resonates with a real, incompletely
understood and unarticulated, feeling that kids actually have - that
doesn't mean it does them any good. Mindless rebellion against an
unidentified oppressor is just destructive. Cathartic and fun, but in
the long run just destructive.
JoeOrrion
>> don't hate blacks for being black, just for acting black. Aren't you
>> enlightened.
>
>Who is a bigot. Do you suppose ALL black folks act the same
>way?
You are the bigot, and I know that not all black people act the same way. Does
that mean there can be no such thing as black culture? I don't think so. You
mock and insult black culture, and though you may assert that that doesn't make
you a racist, in the common usage it absolutely does. You conservatives
pretend that their is no cultural aspect to race in order to pretend you are
not racists while supporting institutionalized racism and disrespecting every
aspect of black culture.
Joe Teicher
Robert J. Kolker
JoeOrrion wrote:
> you a racist, in the common usage it absolutely does. You conservatives
> pretend that their is no cultural aspect to race in order to pretend you are
> not racists while supporting institutionalized racism and disrespecting every
> aspect of black culture.
1. I am not a conservative.
2. What is it about culture that is genetically
inherited? Nothing.
Do I disrespect the violence, the negligence of children,
the shortsightedness, the impulsiveness, the lack of
planning and judgement. You bet I do!
These are voluntary and chosen charactersitics and the
people who are this way brought it on themselves.
My ancestors used to live in ghettos (the original ghettos
btw, but they were never savages).
Bob Kolker
>
Kwag7693
>Does
>that mean there can be no such thing as black culture? I don't think so. You
>mock and insult black culture, and though you may assert that that doesn't
>make
>you a racist, in the common usage it absolutely does.
I think a large number of "black" people would be insulted that you think rap,
which even you agree is in large part so very objectionable, is sufficient to
characterize their culture. You note that much of rap is problematic, but
think that pointing this out to rap's detriment overall is an insult to
"blacks"?
>You conservatives
>pretend that their is no cultural aspect to race in order to pretend you are
>not racists while supporting institutionalized racism and disrespecting every
>aspect of black culture.
You problem is that PC bullshit has severely denigrated your ability to think
clearly here. "Race" is irrelevant to figuring out how to treat reasonable
people. If they think it is important, then they are wrong. I can't care less
how quickly or slowly one's ancestor's left Africa, what color one's skin is,
or if one feels most comfy by identifying themselves with people now dead for
centuries. None of those is sufficient or necessary to figure out how best to
interact with rational human beings. Your blind advocacy to "racial"
separatism is a nice expose of the racist underpinnings of PC culture.
Kevin
Larry Kulp
> I have deliberately narrowed my emotional range. The idea is
> to get rid of compassion and pity which I consider defects and
> rotting emotions.
But aren't you throwing out the wheat with the chaff? Is it possible to
repress the negative emotions without also repressing the positive one's?
And, I wonder if such things as pity and compassion are negative emotions at
all. Are you sure that cutting yourself off from other people's feelings is
beneficial to your life?
> Rational indifference is the lowest energy state
> and is most consistent with the laws of nature.
Wait a minute. Since when are emotions inconsistent with the laws of
nature. Emotions are a universal and funadamental aspect of human nature.
They are integral to our nature. Part of our essence. 100% natural and,
therefore, part of the laws of nature. Repress them, and you are repressing
a basic aspect of your humanity.
Furthermore, they are a BENEFICIAL part of our nature. Aside from the fact
that positive emotions make life worth living, there is the wider context
that emotions serve as a "short-cut" in the decision-making process, because
emotional responses are almost instantaneous.
Emotions, from an objective viewpoint, are neutral. The way they attach to
a given individual's cognitions depends on that individual's values and how
he perceives a given situation as being supportive vs. threatening to his
values.
Assuming that one's mind is not riddled with contradictions and evasions of
reality, then his emotional response should be a reliable evaluation of a
given situation vis-a-vis one's values. Needless to say, one's trust for an
emotional response must be tempered in light of reason's superior ability to
evaluate complex and novel situations.
As for pity and compassion, I agree that these can be dangerous emotions.
But then I ask you, do you value other human beings at all? How about their
value as a source of knowledge, of trade, of assistance, and of
companionship, just to name a few things? If you value other human beings,
at least in principle (because, in individual cases, some individuals do not
deserve pity or compassion), then you WILL respond to their circumstances
emotionally. It's part of natural law, Robert.
> Given two paths
> to a goal, I choose the path of least action.
Is emotional repression really the "path of least action." Mental activity,
you know, is a kind of action, at least in the senses that it takes effort.
You might be surprised at how much mental effort it takes to establish and
maintain emotional repression. It takes great effort, because you are
trying to deny part of your basic nature--defying natural law, as it were.
Ask any psychologist about the high cost of repression. It has very nasty
side-effects, the main one being that it causes your mind to be less
efficient, because it is spending so much time and effort to defeat its own
nature.
> Pity rots. Compassion kills. More damage is done in
> the name of love than in the name of hate. Love less,
> think more.
I agree that we should think more, a lot more, but disagree that we should
love less. I really believe you should rethink your position, Robert.
Ruling one's emotions does not mean eliminating them. It means bringing
them into conformance with one's values and perceptions, so that they can be
useful tools--as well as wondrous rewards.
KULP
Larry Kulp
not music. Rap is poetry set to a largely gratuitous instrumental,
rhythmical background which is totally devoid of interest. (In any event,
the poetry has plenty of rhythm without the background. I guess the
overpowering drum-beat sells.)
As for its artisitic value as poetry, I must part the ways from Bob. Much
Rap does not glorify the gutter, and it would be not be a fair
characterization to say that it does. Moreover, the fact that much Rap is
angry does not invalidate its artistic value. That anger, though often not
aimed at correctly indentified causes, is real. I'm not black, but I'm
really pissed off at the damage inflicted by liberal white politicians on
the racial milieu in this country--affirmative action immediately coming to
mind. Rap, as poetry, is a very effective expression of the way many blacks
feel.
As for personal musical preferences, though, the attempt to make Rap "music"
utterly fails and ruins the overall aesthetic experience. I wouldn't mind
reading it, but hearing it stinks.
KULP
Stephen Grossman
<joeo...@aol.com> wrote:
> << the characters display intelligence above the pop culture level of
> Brittany Spears and rap. Many sitcoms pander to an aggressive stupidity >>
>
> a lot of rap is quite smart. Racist bastard.
arbitrary link, not logical implication.
Stephen Grossman
<joeo...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think being kosher is stupid
you dont like corned beef sandwiches w/half sour pickles?!