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This is to those who feel *superior*

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Amanda

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Nov 23, 2006, 10:16:29 AM11/23/06
to
Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
Turkey, Will you?

Offended? Well intended.

My favorite quote is still Einstein's
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. I am
not sure about the former."

Sayonara

Robert J. Kolker

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 10:41:37 AM11/23/06
to

Apparently you cannot accept humans (homosapiens) for what they are: the
Smartest, Baddest Apes in The Monkey House. We are as we evolved. We
could be no other. Rejoice in our essences since there is no alternative.

Bob Kolker

Puppet_Sock

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Nov 23, 2006, 10:45:28 AM11/23/06
to
Amanda wrote:
> Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
> the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
> Turkey, Will you?

You must be eager to get to your 12th birthday party.
Socks

Malrassic Park

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 10:57:49 AM11/23/06
to
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:41:37 +0000 (UTC), "Robert J. Kolker"
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Amanda wrote:
>> Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
>> the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
>> Turkey, Will you?

.
>> Offended? Well intended.


.
>> My favorite quote is still Einstein's
>> "Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. I am
>> not sure about the former."

.
>> Sayonara
.


>Apparently you cannot accept humans (homosapiens) for what they are: the
>Smartest, Baddest Apes in The Monkey House. We are as we evolved. We
>could be no other. Rejoice in our essences since there is no alternative.

And these apes should all be speaking "Engrish" while their own native
languages slowly revert to the status of ancient Greek.

John Alway

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 12:09:44 PM11/23/06
to

Amanda wrote:
> Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
> the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
> Turkey, Will you?

I have no idea what you're talking about, but if people throughout
the world would adopt individual rights and capitalism, there would be
much greater prosperity and much less misery and thuggery. There is
something you can work on and try and spread in Burma if you are as
concerned about those people as you claim to be.

There is your answer.

Amanda

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 12:35:44 PM11/23/06
to

John Alway wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> > Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
> > the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
> > Turkey, Will you?
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about,

I just feel funny that Thanksgiving day is celebrated while those
people became extinct.


> but if people throughout
> the world would adopt individual rights and capitalism, there would be
> much greater prosperity and much less misery and thuggery.

It is not because of lack of individual rights that peopel are
suffering. People are suffering because they are homo sapiens.

>There is something you can work on and try and spread in Burma if you are as
> concerned about those people as you claim to be.

Frankly, I think we need to kill the thugs like saddam was handled but
no so-called nations of democracy would help us except paying lip
service.

>
> There is your answer.

What was my question?

Robert J. Kolker

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 12:39:41 PM11/23/06
to
John Alway wrote:
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about, but if people throughout

It was a nasty weapon. Blankets that wrapped people who died of small
pox were given to some of the indian tribes "to keep them warm". Some gift.

"One of the most contentious issues relating to disease and depopulation
in the Americas concerns the degree to which American indigenous peoples
were intentionally infected with diseases such as smallpox. Despite some
legends to the contrary, there seems to be no evidence that the Spanish
ever attempted to deliberately infect the American natives.[9]

However, there is at least one documented incident in which British
soldiers in North America attempted to intentionally infect native
people. During Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763, a number of Native Americans
launched a widespread war against British soldiers and settlers in an
attempt to drive the British out of the Great Lakes region. In what is
now western Pennsylvania, Native Americans (primarily Delawares) laid
siege to Fort Pitt on June 22, 1763. Surrounded and isolated, and with
over 200 women and children in the fort, the commander of Fort Pitt gave
representatives of the besieging Delawares two blankets that had been
exposed to smallpox in an attempt to infect the natives and end the siege.

British General Jeffrey Amherst is usually associated with this
incident, and although he suggested this tactic in a letter to a
subordinate, by that time the commander at Fort Pitt had already made
the attempt. While it is certain that these officers attempted to
intentionally infect American Indians with smallpox, it is uncertain
whether or not the attempt was successful. Because many natives in the
area died from smallpox in 1763, some writers have concluded that the
attempt was indeed a success. A number of recent scholars, however, have
noted that evidence for connecting the blanket incident with the
smallpox outbreak is doubtful, and that the disease was more likely
spread by native warriors returning from attacks on infected white
settlements.[10]

A disputed incident is Ward Churchill's claim that in 1837 the United
States Army deliberately infected Mandan Indians by distributing
blankets that had been exposed to smallpox. Most other historians who
have looked at the same event disagree with Churchill's interpretation
of the historical evidence, and believe no deliberate introduction
occurred at this time and place.[11][12]"

See the whole piece at in the wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples


Two of the things that Made America Great were land theft and genocide.
That is how the West Was Won.

Bob Kolker

Malrassic Park

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Nov 23, 2006, 12:42:52 PM11/23/06
to

Notice that she capitalized the word "turkey." Is Amanda now accusing
the US of economic colonialism or empiricalist aggression against the
country of Turkey? On Turkey Day? Which non-Jewish country will the
world-dominating US swallow a bite of next? And will the US give its
#1 ally Israel a piece of the Muslim pie?

Dan Lind

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 12:43:22 PM11/23/06
to

Amanda wrote:
>
> What was my question?

Perhaps that's the problem, that you haven't asked the question.

Dan Lind

Malrassic Park

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 1:24:29 PM11/23/06
to

Robert J. Kolker wrote:
snip

> A disputed incident is Ward Churchill's claim that in 1837 the United
> States Army deliberately infected Mandan Indians by distributing
> blankets that had been exposed to smallpox. Most other historians who
> have looked at the same event disagree with Churchill's interpretation
> of the historical evidence, and believe no deliberate introduction
> occurred at this time and place.[11][12]"
.

> See the whole piece at in the wikipedia article
.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_pe
> oples
.

> Two of the things that Made America Great were land theft and genocide.
> That is how the West Was Won.

This works both ways. The Indians brought us tobacco and, naturally,
cardiovascular disease.

Ken Gardner

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Nov 23, 2006, 2:35:29 PM11/23/06
to
Amanda wrote:

>I just feel funny that Thanksgiving day is celebrated while those
>people became extinct.

What's it to you? You never knew any of them. They have been gone
for over a hundred years.

Ken

Reggie Perrin

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 2:49:25 PM11/23/06
to

For "I feel funny" read "I think you should feel guilty". Interesting,
if somewhat depressing, to see how all the usual pathologies have
emerged after a little prodding.

Matt Barrow

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Nov 23, 2006, 4:39:02 PM11/23/06
to

"John Alway" <jal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164301668.3...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> Amanda wrote:
>> Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
>> the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
>> Turkey, Will you?
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about,


Disease infested blankets given to the American aborigines.

She's making a general statement for a specific instance. Typical from such
a brick-brained nutcase such as she is.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

Robert J. Kolker

unread,
Nov 23, 2006, 9:08:49 PM11/23/06
to
Malrassic Park wrote:
>
> This works both ways. The Indians brought us tobacco and, naturally,
> cardiovascular disease.

And gambling casinos.

1742 - Chief Walking Crow
1862 - Chief Sitting Bull
1992 - Chief Rolling Dicce

Bob Kolker

Message has been deleted

Amanda

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 1:51:29 AM11/24/06
to

Reggie Perrin wrote:
> Ken Gardner wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> >
> >> I just feel funny that Thanksgiving day is celebrated while those
> >> people became extinct.
> >
> > What's it to you? You never knew any of them. They have been gone
> > for over a hundred years.
>
> For "I feel funny" read "I think you should feel guilty".

Are you that insecure? I really feel *amusingly* funny, especially
after learning about the blanket thing. Take it at face-value or leave
it; don't twist it.


>Interesting, if somewhat depressing,
Then take anti-depressant.

> to see how all the usual pathologies have emerged after a little prodding.

What if I told you that the instructor of a class I am taking showed us
a little cartoon last night about the Indians consulting the wise owls
about letting *those* people stay. The class was dead quiet after
that. And I became more amused the way Thanksgiving has become such a
BIG holiday here. But turkey tastes damn good and so I am not
complaining. My visiting brother loves it too. In the middle of eating,
he said he wants to see a bunch of them together, meaning live ones.
He said he saw two of them, raised by someone where he grew up -
different city than I did, when he was young. I haven't seen a live
one yet.

Message has been deleted

John Alway

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 1:06:43 PM11/24/06
to

Amanda wrote:

[...]

> > to see how all the usual pathologies have emerged after a little prodding.
> What if I told you that the instructor of a class I am taking showed us
> a little cartoon last night about the Indians consulting the wise owls
> about letting *those* people stay.

What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?

>... The class was dead quiet after
> that.

It's easy to mislead the ignorant.

>.. And I became more amused the way Thanksgiving has become such a
> BIG holiday here.

Odds are you are getting massively biased propaganda. Modern
universities in the humanities are big for that sort of thing. They
*love* to vilify America, and they will lie through their teeth to do
it. America is a great country, the greatest, and they like to bring
it down.

Take Ward Churchill who Bob Kolker references. The guy is a known
liar. He even lied about being an Indian (native American Indian).

I assure you, Amanda, I feel *zero guilt*. I've done *nothing
wrong*, and I don't appreciate you attempting to inculcate unearned
guilt.


...John

fred...@papertig.com

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 7:27:52 PM11/24/06
to
Amanda wrote:

> he said he wants to see a bunch of them together, meaning live ones.
> He said he saw two of them, raised by someone where he grew up -
> different city than I did, when he was young. I haven't seen a live
> one yet.

We get small flocks of 6-10 wild turkeys with some frequency in my area
(the Catskill Mts). I've had a flock strutting and pecking its way
across my lawn a few times. The other day I had to stop my car so a
flock could cross the road. One time some years ago while walking in
the woods I ran into a nest of baby turkeys. It was interesting to
watch the mother perform the "feinting/wounded" routine to draw me away
from the nest.

As for the native Indians, there's such a blatant contradiction going
on there. On the one hand everyone acknowledges that they were
constantly fighting and killing each other. (In fact didn't the tribe
that helped the Pilgrims befriend them in the hopes that they would be
allies against their neighboring tribes?) Look at it this way. We
became "the tribe" that defeated them. Not much worse than what they
had been doing toward each other for the millenia prior to our arrival.


Furthermore, those Indians that have survived and chosen to prosper by
taking advantage of Western culture were given an enormous gift - the
opportunity to literally leap centuries of development from virtual
Stone Age cultures.

It's beside the point anyway. It was impossible - flat-out impossible -
for us to have co-existed peacefully with them. The cultural clash was
too great. So, it was either them or us. We have nothing to apologize
for.

(I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
one).

Fred Weiss

Ken Gardner

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 8:07:22 PM11/24/06
to
fred...@papertig.com wrote:

>It's beside the point anyway. It was impossible - flat-out impossible -
>for us to have co-existed peacefully with them. The cultural clash was
>too great. So, it was either them or us. We have nothing to apologize
>for.

>(I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
>one).

If this happens, you will be punished -- severely -- for your crimes.

The HPO Deja Vu Police

Chris Cathcart

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 8:13:14 PM11/24/06
to

On Nov 23, 10:16 am, Amanda <amanda772...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Remember those savages killed by the blankets given by those so called
> the *civilized* barbarians before you swallow that first bite of
> Turkey, Will you?
>
> Offended? Well intended.

Does the HPO Image King have a Kook Alert pic?

n
n
n
n
n

Jim Klein

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 8:29:20 PM11/24/06
to
fred...@papertig.com wrote:

> As for the native Indians, there's such a blatant contradiction going
> on there. On the one hand everyone acknowledges that they were
> constantly fighting and killing each other.

Since when did everyone acknowledging something, become some standard for
the truth? How does a Subjectivist go about it?

Doesn't really matter as the claim is false anyway, as you very well know
since you've had arguments with people who do not so acknowledge.

In fact, the only reason /you/ acknowledge this, is because of your
willingness to evade valid and substantiated information which was made
available to you.

That's why I'll never let you go on this. It's one thing to be ignorant of
something, as so many are about this issue. At the very least, we know
that lots of west coast natives behaved nothing like you imply here.

But willful evasion is quite a worse thing than simple ignorance. And
that's exactly what you've had to engage to pretend you don't know any
better. That, and typical ad hominem bullshit as if the source of
validated information somehow makes the information invalid.

Why don't you just do the right thing on this topic for a change, and point
out to the ignorant masses that they tend to overgeneralize and
collectivize? Denouncing collectivism /is/ approved by your leaders, yes?

BTW, what was the other hand of the blatant contradiction you were
explaining? I think you left that part out. What a shock.


jk

Amanda

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 10:22:21 PM11/24/06
to

John Alway wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > to see how all the usual pathologies have emerged after a little pro
> > > dding.
> > What if I told you that the instructor of a class I am taking showed us
> > a little cartoon last night about the Indians consulting the wise owls
> > about letting *those* people stay.
>
> What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?

Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
assignment. The instructor routinely shows some short videos at every
class meeting. One of them (last week I think was) a song by Hillary
and Condi Rice slapping each other with words in the race for
presidency. It was just a bit dirty for my tase with Hillary saying
that Rice couldn't even keep a man while Rice saying something about
Bill Clinton's pant.

>
> >... The class was dead quiet after
> > that.
>
> It's easy to mislead the ignorant.

Do I look like I will be in liberal arts class?

>
> >.. And I became more amused the way Thanksgiving has become such a
> > BIG holiday here.
>
> Odds are you are getting massively biased propaganda. Modern
> universities in the humanities are big for that sort of thing. They
> *love* to vilify America, and they will lie through their teeth to do
> it. America is a great country, the greatest, and they like to bring
> it down.

Do I look like I will be in liberal arts class?

>
> Take Ward Churchill who Bob Kolker references. The guy is a known
> liar. He even lied about being an Indian (native American Indian).


Do I look like I will be in liberal arts class?

> I assure you, Amanda, I feel *zero guilt*. I've done *nothing
> wrong*, and I don't appreciate you attempting to inculcate unearned
> guilt.


Do I look like I will be in liberal arts class?
x
x
x
x
x
x
x

>
>
> ...John

Amanda

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 10:32:53 PM11/24/06
to

fred...@papertig.com wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
>
> > he said he wants to see a bunch of them together, meaning live ones.
> > He said he saw two of them, raised by someone where he grew up -
> > different city than I did, when he was young. I haven't seen a live
> > one yet.
>
> We get small flocks of 6-10 wild turkeys with some frequency in my area
> (the Catskill Mts). I've had a flock strutting and pecking its way
> across my lawn a few times. The other day I had to stop my car so a
> flock could cross the road. One time some years ago while walking in
> the woods I ran into a nest of baby turkeys. It was interesting to
> watch the mother perform the "feinting/wounded" routine to draw me away
> from the nest.

I have seen a flock of them in one TV show. I am not sure whether he
did since my brother said - he's staying at my sister's palce who is
out of the country at the moment - he doesn't watch TV during the day.
There might be some farm around here that I could take him with no
trouble but I already feel too much pressure to take him to some places
in December because I am tight with time.

>
> As for the native Indians, there's such a blatant contradiction going
> on there. On the one hand everyone acknowledges that they were
> constantly fighting and killing each other. (In fact didn't the tribe
> that helped the Pilgrims befriend them in the hopes that they would be
> allies against their neighboring tribes?) Look at it this way.

> We became "the tribe" that defeated them.

Like Armenians are minority in today Turkey and Assyrians are in Iran:)

> Not much worse than what they
> had been doing toward each other for the millenia prior to our arrival.

I read that some tribes were quite peaceful.

>
> Furthermore, those Indians that have survived and chosen to prosper by
> taking advantage of Western culture were given an enormous gift - the
> opportunity to literally leap centuries of development from virtual
> Stone Age cultures.
>
> It's beside the point anyway. It was impossible - flat-out impossible -
> for us to have co-existed peacefully with them. The cultural clash was
> too great. So, it was either them or us.

> We have nothing to apologize for.

You gotta admit that it was not nice to pretend caring and giving them
blankets with intention to kill them.


> (I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
> one).

I heard that Cherokee were the most ..hmm. what's the word, fierce?
fighters.

Amanda

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 10:33:00 PM11/24/06
to

fred...@papertig.com wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
>
> > he said he wants to see a bunch of them together, meaning live ones.
> > He said he saw two of them, raised by someone where he grew up -
> > different city than I did, when he was young. I haven't seen a live
> > one yet.
>
> We get small flocks of 6-10 wild turkeys with some frequency in my area
> (the Catskill Mts). I've had a flock strutting and pecking its way
> across my lawn a few times. The other day I had to stop my car so a
> flock could cross the road. One time some years ago while walking in
> the woods I ran into a nest of baby turkeys. It was interesting to
> watch the mother perform the "feinting/wounded" routine to draw me away
> from the nest.

I have seen a flock of them in one TV show. I am not sure whether he


did since my brother said - he's staying at my sister's palce who is
out of the country at the moment - he doesn't watch TV during the day.
There might be some farm around here that I could take him with no
trouble but I already feel too much pressure to take him to some places
in December because I am tight with time.

>


> As for the native Indians, there's such a blatant contradiction going
> on there. On the one hand everyone acknowledges that they were
> constantly fighting and killing each other. (In fact didn't the tribe
> that helped the Pilgrims befriend them in the hopes that they would be
> allies against their neighboring tribes?) Look at it this way.

> We became "the tribe" that defeated them.

Like Armenians are minority in today Turkey and Assyrians are in Iran:)

> Not much worse than what they


> had been doing toward each other for the millenia prior to our arrival.

I read that some tribes were quite peaceful.

>


> Furthermore, those Indians that have survived and chosen to prosper by
> taking advantage of Western culture were given an enormous gift - the
> opportunity to literally leap centuries of development from virtual
> Stone Age cultures.
>
> It's beside the point anyway. It was impossible - flat-out impossible -
> for us to have co-existed peacefully with them. The cultural clash was
> too great. So, it was either them or us.

> We have nothing to apologize for.

You gotta admit that it was not nice to pretend caring and giving them


blankets with intention to kill them.

> (I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
> one).

I heard that Cherokee were the most ..hmm. what's the word, fierce?

Amanda

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 10:33:36 PM11/24/06
to

fred...@papertig.com wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
>
> > he said he wants to see a bunch of them together, meaning live ones.
> > He said he saw two of them, raised by someone where he grew up -
> > different city than I did, when he was young. I haven't seen a live
> > one yet.
>
> We get small flocks of 6-10 wild turkeys with some frequency in my area
> (the Catskill Mts). I've had a flock strutting and pecking its way
> across my lawn a few times. The other day I had to stop my car so a
> flock could cross the road. One time some years ago while walking in
> the woods I ran into a nest of baby turkeys. It was interesting to
> watch the mother perform the "feinting/wounded" routine to draw me away
> from the nest.

I have seen a flock of them in one TV show. I am not sure whether he


did since my brother said - he's staying at my sister's palce who is
out of the country at the moment - he doesn't watch TV during the day.
There might be some farm around here that I could take him with no
trouble but I already feel too much pressure to take him to some places
in December because I am tight with time.

>


> As for the native Indians, there's such a blatant contradiction going
> on there. On the one hand everyone acknowledges that they were
> constantly fighting and killing each other. (In fact didn't the tribe
> that helped the Pilgrims befriend them in the hopes that they would be
> allies against their neighboring tribes?) Look at it this way.

> We became "the tribe" that defeated them.

Like Armenians are minority in today Turkey and Assyrians are in Iran:)

> Not much worse than what they


> had been doing toward each other for the millenia prior to our arrival.

I read that some tribes were quite peaceful.

>


> Furthermore, those Indians that have survived and chosen to prosper by
> taking advantage of Western culture were given an enormous gift - the
> opportunity to literally leap centuries of development from virtual
> Stone Age cultures.
>
> It's beside the point anyway. It was impossible - flat-out impossible -
> for us to have co-existed peacefully with them. The cultural clash was
> too great. So, it was either them or us.

> We have nothing to apologize for.

You gotta admit that it was not nice to pretend caring and giving them


blankets with intention to kill them.

> (I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
> one).

I heard that Cherokee were the most ..hmm. what's the word, fierce?

fred...@papertig.com

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 11:42:14 PM11/24/06
to
Amanda wrote:
> fred...@papertig.com wrote:

> > We became "the tribe" that defeated them.
> Like Armenians are minority in today Turkey and Assyrians are in Iran:)

Not analogous. The Armenians were bothering no one and represented no
actual threat to the Turks. Their "crime" was not being Muslim.

> > Not much worse than what they
> > had been doing toward each other for the millenia prior to our arrival.
>
> I read that some tribes were quite peaceful.

You mean subjugated by some other tribe(s) which were not peaceful? I'm
sure there was such tribes, that if they had attempted war against
their stronger and more brutal neighbors they would have been
annihilated. So they kept their heads down and hoped they would be left
alone. How successful a strategy that was and for how long I don't
know.

Contra JK's accusation, I don't claim to be an expert on the Indians.

> You gotta admit that it was not nice to pretend caring and giving them
> blankets with intention to kill them.

I don't know how common a practice that was. It was hardly necessary.
The Indians died like flies and in huge numbers from diseases brought
over by the whites and against which they had no natural immunity. It
was just as well. It made the few remaining ones easier to control.

> > (I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
> > one).
>
> I heard that Cherokee were the most ..hmm. what's the word, fierce?
> fighters.

Originally, yes they were - and slave holders, I might add. I doubt
anyone would cite them as examples of those supposed "peaceful"
Indians. They were known to be extremely war-like and fierce warriors.
They also fought on the side of the British in the Amer. Revolution, as
did many of the other tribes.

However, later - in a rare instance of it - they embraced white culture
and did try to assimilate up to a point. In a later, less bigoted
cultural atmosphere they might have been persuaded to fully assimilate
and become American citizens, fully governed by our laws. We'll never
know. They were forced to relocate to a reservation - in Oklahoma I
believe.

Fred Weiss

John Alway

unread,
Nov 24, 2006, 11:49:35 PM11/24/06
to

Amanda wrote:
> John Alway wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:

[...]

> > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?

> Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
> database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
> assignment.

What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?
Where did you get the story?


> > >... The class was dead quiet after
> > > that.

> > It's easy to mislead the ignorant.

> Do I look like I will be in liberal arts class?

I can't see you Amanda, but I can read (sort of) what you wrote.

...John

Ken Gardner

unread,
Nov 25, 2006, 12:12:23 AM11/25/06
to
Chris Cathcart wrote:

>> Offended? Well intended.
>
>Does the HPO Image King have a Kook Alert pic?

Will this do?

http://tinyurl.com/rddco

Or maybe this:

http://tinyurl.com/tycka

The HPO Image King

Robert J. Kolker

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Nov 25, 2006, 8:59:04 AM11/25/06
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Amanda wrote:

>
>
>>(I'm sure this will prompt some KAL algorithm, probably the Cherokee
>>one).
>
>
> I heard that Cherokee were the most ..hmm. what's the word, fierce?
> fighters.

Actually not. The Apache and the Lakhota were the fiercest. The Pawnee
were also pretty nasty.

The Cherokee were counted among the "civilized" aborignal nation/tribes.
They were mostly agricularal and were used to the idea of land
ownership. This did not save them from Adrew Jackson, the stone killer.

Bob Kolker

Robert J. Kolker

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Nov 25, 2006, 9:02:01 AM11/25/06
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fred...@papertig.com wrote:
>
> I don't know how common a practice that was. It was hardly necessary.
> The Indians died like flies and in huge numbers from diseases brought
> over by the whites and against which they had no natural immunity. It
> was just as well. It made the few remaining ones easier to control.

That was mostly the Aztec. The plains tribes were not decimated by disease.

The small pox plague brought by the Spanish killed over six million Aztec.

By the way the Aztec in some respects were more advanced that the
Spanish. They took regular baths, had running water toilets (at least in
their major cities) and had base twenty arithmetic notation. On the
other hand the Spaniards had germs, guns and steel. Guess who won?

Bob Kolker

Matt Barrow

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Nov 25, 2006, 9:17:43 AM11/25/06
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<fred...@papertig.com> wrote in message
news:1164429702.0...@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Amanda wrote:

>> fred...@papertig.com wrote:
>
> However, later - in a rare instance of it - they embraced white culture
> and did try to assimilate up to a point. In a later, less bigoted
> cultural atmosphere they might have been persuaded to fully assimilate
> and become American citizens, fully governed by our laws. We'll never
> know. They were forced to relocate to a reservation - in Oklahoma I
> believe.
>
It is the Osage IR in Oklahoma (the Cherokee IR is in North Carolina), and
you would notice little contrast from surrounding areas off the reservation.
This is in marked contrast to other tribes that still are 100 years behind.
One can see a dividing line between their reservation lands and "white"
lands that abut the reservations.

Many are willing to break away and establish themselves in the modern world,
but the overwhelming majority are unwilling to cut the apron strings. Like
other groups, they set the standards for dependency behavior.

Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 11:32:34 AM11/25/06
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John Alway wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> > John Alway wrote:
> > > Amanda wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?
>
> > Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
> > database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
> > assignment.
>
> What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?

Think about it. They're called savages by the whites but the whites,
who called themselves citvilized, killed them in savage manner.


> Where did you get the story?

You mean the blanket story? I think it was the man of host couple on a
Thanksgiving day; I knew them very well. He always talked to me about
differrent things in politcal nature. But a while before that, I had
some preface to the story at a dinner table at a conference that my
graduate advisor took me and the technician, a American female just 4
years older than me who was working for him. We were at a table with 3
other professors, two of them were young, and one was obviously a nice
guy, i.e honest person unlike the other one who was causcious about
what to say and what not to say in front of me, the foreigner.

It was in November. The three of them were talking about children
movies at first. I wasn't paying close attention but then the nice one
said, "if we didn't, they would have killed us" and I realized that
there must have been some serious killing. The other looked at me,
noticing my attentive composure, I guess. They didn't continue with
that topic in detail.

Malrassic Park

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Nov 25, 2006, 11:59:16 AM11/25/06
to
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:32:34 +0000 (UTC), Amanda
<amanda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

.


>John Alway wrote:
>> Amanda wrote:
>> > John Alway wrote:
>> > > Amanda wrote:

.


>> > > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?

.


>> > Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
>> > database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
>> > assignment.
.
>> What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?

.


>Think about it. They're called savages by the whites but the whites,
>who called themselves citvilized, killed them in savage manner.

No, you think about it. Ironic rhetoric aside: the savages used savage
'manners,' the civilized used technology. Technology won, of course.

John Alway

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Nov 25, 2006, 2:03:42 PM11/25/06
to

Amanda wrote:
> John Alway wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> > > John Alway wrote:
> > > > Amanda wrote:

> > [...]

> > > > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?

> > > Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
> > > database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
> > > assignment.

> > What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?

> Think about it. They're called savages by the whites but the whites,
> who called themselves citvilized, killed them in savage manner.

Whites can be savage as much as anyone. The point is, they also
achieved the highest level of civility at the time.

> > Where did you get the story?

> You mean the blanket story? I think it was the man of host couple on a
> Thanksgiving day;

About the blanket story, it appears to be completely false.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

[quote]
One of the most contentious issues relating to disease and
depopulation in the Americas concerns the degree to which American
indigenous peoples were intentionally infected with diseases such as
smallpox. Despite some legends to the contrary, there seems to be no
evidence that the Spanish ever attempted to deliberately infect the
American natives.[9]
[/quote]

So, what is the motivation for spreadig *false* propaganda? You're
not to blame, but why is it out there, and why are "professors"
spreading it?


...John

Message has been deleted

John Alway

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:36:17 PM11/25/06
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Agent Cooper wrote:

> On Nov 25, 11:03 am, John Alway <jal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > About the blanket story, it appears to be completely false.
>
> Well, if you read the article itself you'll see that there was one
> documented episode.

You mean as a counter tactic during a war. I don't see anything
wrong with that.

Here is the quote.

[quote]
However, there is at least one documented incident in which British
soldiers in North America attempted to intentionally infect native
people. During Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763, a number of Native
Americans launched a widespread war against British soldiers and
settlers in an attempt to drive the British out of the Great Lakes
region. In what is now western Pennsylvania, Native Americans
(primarily Delawares) laid siege to Fort Pitt on June 22, 1763.
Surrounded and isolated, and with over 200 women and children in the
fort, the commander of Fort Pitt gave representatives of the besieging
Delawares two blankets that had been exposed to smallpox in an attempt
to infect the natives and end the siege.
[/quote]


> This whole epic is far too complicated to sort out
> here,

The story Amanda gave is being contested as not being supported by
evidence. In the context of postmodernism and the willingness of
historians, such as Ward Churchill, to fabricate "facts" to impugn the
West, you have to be especially critical.


>.. but I should stress (did stress) a point which no one picked up
> on: there being no principled geographical or demographic division to
> be made between different sorts of Amerindian populations based on what
> nation-state they currently find themselves in, the fact is that there
> are huge quantitites of descendants of the aboriginals. Every time you
> notice the the darker skin color of a "Hispanic" recall that this is
> not a European origin phenotype. 30% of Mexico doesn't even speak
> Spanish. The causes of the decline (though hardly a decline to nothing)
> have mostly to do with competing land use practices and demographics,
> and the epidemiological consequences of suddenly mixing two previously
> separated populations, one of which had developed immunity over a long
> period of time to various pathogens, the other of which had not, having
> never been exposed. In short, it was largely a natural and unplanned
> economic phenomenon.

Right. It makes no sense to morally condemn people for that which
is outside of their control. The claim that Europeans brought disease
is true (and I'm sure it worked the other way as well), but this is
simply nature at work, not mankind.

>.... The paradigm is aboriginal groups using land in
> non-agricultural ways, Europeans coming into that space to cultivate
> what appears to be raw, unused land, and the aboriginal group
> responding by leaving or by trying to drive off the settlers, often
> provoking a response, and leading again to the aboriginals leaving.
> It's a phenomenon more akin to "urban sprawl" or "gentrification" than
> to the Holocaust.

Absolutely. The word "holocaust" is applied in order to vilify
people, not because it holds any accuracy, which is funny coming from
nomonalists who don't believe there is a right or wrong.


> The motivation for any propaganda is clear: power. As Nietzsche
> explains, when a group doesn't stand a chance against a superior force
> or social faction, it does always have the option of guilting them into
> surrender.

...except that I consider this to be self-inflicted, more than
inspired by those of other cultures. There is a strong sense among
some "intellectuals" that self-effacement is good, and egoism is bad.
They also have a problem with inequality of any sort.

>... The pro-Amerindian propaganda, which in my experience never
> emanates from Amerindians themselves, who are mostly interested in
> getting on with things, is to inspire a nebulous, pervasive, deep
> self-hatred.

Right. In fact, most native Americans are just part of the
population, doing their own thing.

>... Then nothing specific of value will be defended because
> one loses confidence in the whole thing. Surrender then creates a power
> vacuum and one can step into it.

> The fate of the aboriginal cultures is sad in a way, and there has been
> violent conflict (find me a geographical region on earth since the
> invention of agriculture that is peaceful), but there's no basis for
> comparison between the Western/Aboriginal interaction and modern
> genocides and democides, in which whole peoples were annihilated in a
> short time frame as the expression of state policy.

You know what, the fate of the culture is not sad. Think of the old
druid culture, and how good it is that was replaced.


> This has nothing to do with its being an America-friendly thought. When
> I was in Germany years ago, I was asked in the most charming way "why
> are Americans such racists?" to which I replied sweetly, "because we
> let our ethnic minorities... live."

Racism exists everywhere, and from my observations, America is less
racist than most cultures, although, I wonder if this diversity
movement is pushing us in the wrong direction.


>... That shut her up but quick. If the
> United States wanted to exterminate Native Americans completely, it
> certainly could've done so. Instead, they have been treated quite
> condescendingly like some endangered species and protected in various
> ways. The end result has been helpful to gambling addicts however.

> If someone wants to expose Americans to profound shame, this is the
> wrong way to do it. The right way (in my humble opinion, the only
> significant way) to do it is by uttering one word:

> Slavery.


Well, Thomas Sowell will tell you it has been practiced all around
the world and through out the history of mankind. Africa itself was
(and is to this day) involved in enslaving and trading slaves. It is
not peculiar to America, which was founded in part to eradicate
slavery. He will also tell you that S. America treated slaves much
more cruelly than Americans.

All in all, slavery is a gawdaful thing, and I don't understand the
mindset of people who are willing to do that to others, not only
because of the violation of rights, the primary reason, but also
because of all the various other issues, like simply treating others
poorly, and having to watch your back. It's profoundly stupid.


...John

Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:36:40 PM11/25/06
to

John Alway wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> > John Alway wrote:
> > > Amanda wrote:
> > > > John Alway wrote:
> > > > > Amanda wrote:
>
> > > [...]
>
> > > > > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?
>
> > > > Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
> > > > database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
> > > > assignment.
>
> > > What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?
>
> > Think about it. They're called savages by the whites but the whites,
> > who called themselves citvilized, killed them in savage manner.
>
> Whites can be savage as much as anyone. The point is, they also
> achieved the highest level of civility at the time.
>
> > > Where did you get the story?
>
> > You mean the blanket story? I think it was the man of host couple on a
> > Thanksgiving day;
>
> About the blanket story, it appears to be completely false.

Completely? I doub it. Btw, the man who told me was a Republican and a
Christian minister.
He was a missionay to Asia before. You are not saying that lied, are
you?

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_pe
> oples
>
> [..]
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z
z
z
z
z
z
z
z
z

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z
z
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z
z

Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:36:56 PM11/25/06
to

John Alway wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> > John Alway wrote:
> > > Amanda wrote:
> > > > John Alway wrote:
> > > > > Amanda wrote:
>
> > > [...]
>
> > > > > What class are you taking? What's the title of the course?
>
> > > > Now, now John, don't gets so snesitive. It's just a low level a
> > > > database class - I am in there because I want to dot he homework
> > > > assignment.
>
> > > What motivated you to post the original posting to this thread?
>
> > Think about it. They're called savages by the whites but the whites,
> > who called themselves citvilized, killed them in savage manner.
>
> Whites can be savage as much as anyone. The point is, they also
> achieved the highest level of civility at the time.
>
> > > Where did you get the story?
>
> > You mean the blanket story? I think it was the man of host couple on a
> > Thanksgiving day;
>
> About the blanket story, it appears to be completely false.

Completely? I doub it. Btw, the man who told me was a Republican and a

Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:39:36 PM11/25/06
to

You call this technology? War should be fought with rule, and you know
it. How come you act like everything you do is always right and fair.?
Just admit it for once that it was brabaric whether it was just one
instance or not.

Malrassic Park

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:43:37 PM11/25/06
to
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 20:39:36 +0000 (UTC), Amanda
<amanda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The Indians did not like our incursions onto their "sacred tribal
grounds." They fought us, we fought back, we won. Then we gave them
alcoholic just to make sure it stuck.

Malrassic Park

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Nov 25, 2006, 3:45:02 PM11/25/06
to
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 20:36:17 +0000 (UTC), John Alway
<jal...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right. It makes no sense to morally condemn people for that which
>is outside of their control. The claim that Europeans brought disease
>is true (and I'm sure it worked the other way as well), but this is
>simply nature at work, not mankind.

They should appreciate the fact that the Europeans strengthened their
overall immunity to disease.

John Alway

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Nov 25, 2006, 4:36:17 PM11/25/06
to

Amanda wrote:
> John Alway wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> > > John Alway wrote:

[...]

> > > You mean the blanket story? I think it was the man of host couple on a
> > > Thanksgiving day;

> > About the blanket story, it appears to be completely false.

> Completely? I doub it.

Look at the wikipedia reference. I think it is. You're just
spreading false propaganda.

>...Btw, the man who told me was a Republican and a
> Christian minister.

I'm a fan of neither republicans nor Christianity. I'm an
Objectivist, Oists are atheists. I'm surprised you don't know that.

> He was a missionay to Asia before.

And?

>...You are not saying that lied, are
> you?

The reference above says that he's wrong. Whether he lied or not is
a separate issue. Please try and keep focus on the matter at hand.
The one you brought up. If he were an historian, he'd have a much
higher level of responsibility regarding the matter.


...John

Robert J. Kolker

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Nov 25, 2006, 4:36:20 PM11/25/06
to
Amanda wrote:

>
> You call this technology? War should be fought with rule, and you know
> it. How come you act like everything you do is always right and fair.?
> Just admit it for once that it was brabaric whether it was just one
> instance or not.

One fights a war to win it. Rules or protocols can we worked out only if
they benefit both sides.

Bob Kolker

Robert J. Kolker

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Nov 25, 2006, 4:37:48 PM11/25/06
to
Malrassic Park wrote:

>
> They should appreciate the fact that the Europeans strengthened their
> overall immunity to disease.

Must Europeans grew up covered with shit and exposed to disease and
filth. The survivors gained immunity along with their lives.


Bob Kolker

Malrassic Park

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Nov 25, 2006, 4:59:10 PM11/25/06
to

I meant the Indians' immunity.

Robert J. Kolker

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Nov 25, 2006, 5:10:32 PM11/25/06
to
Malrassic Park wrote:
>
>
> I meant the Indians' immunity.

Yes. The indians who survived the pox would never suffer from it again.

Bob Kolker

Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 5:14:09 PM11/25/06
to

Agent Cooper wrote:
[..]

>
> If someone wants to expose Americans to profound shame, this is the
> wrong way to do it.

There you go again, stretching things out of proportion. The point I
was making was calling them Savages while the calers behaving as
savages .

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/savage
b : lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings


>The right way (in my humble opinion, the only
> significant way) to do it is by uttering one word:
>
> Slavery.

You don't want me to get started on that, do you?

I won't. You know why? Because it is my personal opinion that the caste
system in India is more cruel than the slavery done to another race.
What worse? These dark-skinned people were the one with ancient history
of harppan citivilization while the Aryans were wearing animal skin for
clothes.

European racist has beeen able to brainwash successfully that to this
day, Indians of upper catse in general see their skin color as
definitive to their racial background while taking pride in their
ancient civilization built by the darkie. I won't spare the oriental
either - about obsession with skin color - but not now.


x
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Amanda

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Nov 25, 2006, 5:16:47 PM11/25/06
to

That's more like it. I like this kind of explanation (referring to
alcohols) like the English giving opium to the Chinese.


x
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Jim Klein

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Nov 25, 2006, 9:50:28 PM11/25/06
to
fred...@papertig.com wrote:

> Contra JK's accusation, I don't claim to be an expert on the Indians.

What I accused you of, and still do, is willful evasion of information that
was made available to you, in quite a bit of detail and fully
substantiated. You then, as you no doubt do now, blew it off because it
was cited to you by Meaghan Walker, as if information garnered by an
aboriginal doesn't count or something.

Meanwhile, you parade around as if you really know /anything/ about the
topic, when all you know was either the trifle offered by Rand or typical
slanted bullshit served up by folks who want to justify the unjustifiable.

This is not the method of a truth-seeker, let alone one genuinely influenced
by Rand. IMO, Rand would not willfully evade /any/ information made
available to her, and I /know/ that she considered such evasion a
fundamental error (nay, /the/ fundamental error) for an Objectivist.


>> You gotta admit that it was not nice to pretend caring and giving them
>> blankets with intention to kill them.
>
> I don't know how common a practice that was. It was hardly necessary.
> The Indians died like flies and in huge numbers from diseases brought
> over by the whites and against which they had no natural immunity. It
> was just as well. It made the few remaining ones easier to control.

You're a sick puppy, Fred. More relevantly here, you're anything /but/ an
Objectivist...at least the sort of Objectivist written about by Rand.

I'm curious...do you share gems such as this with your family?


jk

fred...@papertig.com

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Nov 25, 2006, 11:37:44 PM11/25/06