Licht Alberich?
Mark D. Lew
(SEDD) wrote:
> What is the significance of Wotan referring to himself as "Licht Alberich" and
> Alberich as "Schwarz Alberich" during the riddle scene with Mime in Siegfried?
"Alben" is an archaic German word referring to supernatural spirits
(related to the same Norse word from which we get "elf"). The "gods" are
spirits of the light, and the Nibelungs are spirits of the dark. In the
riddle scene Wotan calls them Lichtalben and Schwarzalben, respectively.
(There are numerous direct and indirect references throughout the cycle to
the gods as creatures of light and the Nibelungs as creatures of the dark.)
In the Nibelungenlied, Alberich is the name of a minor character bearing
very little resemblance to Wagner's character (who is based primarily on a
dwarf named "Andvari" in the Icelandic eddas). Obviously, Wagner has
seized upon the name because, as "Albe-rich", it suggests "Albe-rich" a
title signifying "ruler of the elves" (similar to Gothic title-names like
Ermanerich, Heinrich or Friedrich).
Wotan reigns over the Lichtalben, thus he is entitled to the name
Licht-Alberich..
mdl
SEDD
John Yohalem
>In the Nibelungenlied, Alberich is the name of a minor character bearing
>very little resemblance to Wagner's character (who is based primarily on a
>dwarf named "Andvari" in the Icelandic eddas). Obviously, Wagner has
>seized upon the name because, as "Albe-rich", it suggests "Albe-rich" a
>title signifying "ruler of the elves" (similar to Gothic title-names like
>Ermanerich, Heinrich or Friedrich).
Enjoyed Mark's post much.
But for those interested in Andvari:
In Volsunga Saga, Andvari does not occupy a position like Alberich's. He is
the original possessor of the gold of the Rhine and of the ring that
attracts gold. When Odin and Loki steal the gold and the ring, in order to
pay were-gild to the Dwarf King, whose son, Otter, Loki has murdered,
Andvari places a curse on the possessor of both. This operates immediately:
the Dwarf King is murdered by his eldest son, Fafnir, who then (by what
means we never learn) becomes a dragon. Fafnir's remaining brother, Reginn,
thereupon begins to plot revenge, which is eventually achieved by his
foster-son, Sigurd.
There is no relationship between Andvari and Reginn, or between Fafnir and
Valhalla. Those are Wagnerian innovations, as is the idea that the Ring has
power itself. This is his contribution to the lore, with no precedent in
it -- the ring of power motif perhaps comes from the Arabian Nights; in any
case, it is nowhere in the Norse or Teutonic sources.
Wagner never quite worked out the logistics of the ring's powers -- why
can't Alberich control Loge and Wotan from the moment he forges it? Why
can't Brunnhilde use it to fend off Siegfried? u.s.w.
It was left to fantasy writers like Tolkien (a scholar of Icelandic, who
detested what Wagner had done to the Eddas) to theorize on this subject.
Hans Lich
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Opera depends on the happy fiction that feeling can be sustained over
impossibly long stretches of time." -- Joseph Kerman
Tauser
can't Alberich control Loge and Wotan from the moment he forges it? Why
can't Brunnhilde use it to fend off Siegfried?>>
Nature...once removed from the powers of Nature it does not have much efficacy.
Alberich gets a certain amount of control (over his Niebelungs) since he gave
up Love in order to gain it. But any power can be lost by guile and deceit.
Tauser
Mark D. Lew
<ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
> There is no relationship between Andvari and Reginn, or between Fafnir and
> Valhalla. Those are Wagnerian innovations, as is the idea that the Ring has
> power itself. This is his contribution to the lore, with no precedent in
> it -- the ring of power motif perhaps comes from the Arabian Nights; in any
> case, it is nowhere in the Norse or Teutonic sources.
Wagner's contribution to the story (or perversion of it, depending on your
point of view) is enormous. He draws heavily from the Eddas, the Volsung
saga, Thidrik's saga and the Nibelungenlied, with additional input from
miscellaneous other works. From this wide array of sources, he creates an
entire myth.
Can you elaborate on the Arabian Nights connection? I've never heard that.
Aladdin and Ma'aruf both make use of magic rings, but their powers are of a
practical nature. I don't see anything suggesting ruler of the world.
mdl
Serge Helfrich
>Wagner never quite worked out the logistics of the ring's powers -- why
>can't Alberich control Loge and Wotan from the moment he forges it? Why
>can't Brunnhilde use it to fend off Siegfried? u.s.w.
But does the ring really need to have some sort of intrinsic power?
Couldn't greed and the longing for dominion constitute the genuine
power of the ring?
--
Serge Helfrich
http://www.xs4all.nl/~helfrich
Hans Christian Hoff
> John Yohalem:
>
> >Wagner never quite worked out the logistics of the ring's powers -- why
> >can't Alberich control Loge and Wotan from the moment he forges it? Why
> >can't Brunnhilde use it to fend off Siegfried? u.s.w.
>
> But does the ring really need to have some sort of intrinsic power?
> Couldn't greed and the longing for dominion constitute the genuine
> power of the ring?
>
That is really an interesting thought. May be the power does not lie in the
ring itself, but in what the lust for it makes other people do and think. Is
the hype that Alberich creates through his curse the explanation for the
curse's apparent effect ?. Is Brünnhilde invulnerable because she believes
herself to be, which she does until Wotan tells her otherwise ?
Just my 00.2 USD
Regards
Hans
Richard Partridge
>
> John Yohalem:
>
> Couldn't greed and the longing for dominion constitute the genuine
> power of the ring?
>
It seems to me we can't escape the conclusion that possession of the
ring conferred the power to dominate others -- though it might have
taken a little time and practice to learn how to use it, which would
explain why it didn't help Brünnhilde against Siegfried. Even Alberich
was building up his strength gradually; he didn't immediately attack Valhalla.
Consider Alberich's domination of the Nibelungs. Also, when the
Tarnhelm is stolen from Alberich, he consoles himself with the thought
that as long as he keeps the ring, he can have another one made.
Dick Partridge
schneckl
Licht Alberich - Licht = light or bright - if you watch the Ring - the Wotan
Scenes are usually bright and Alberichs dark - Schwarz means black or dark -
I hope this helps
SEDD <se...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990623235848...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
Alan D Glick
an excellent book that interprets the Ring from the perspective of Jung's
theories (which seems to be the way Wagner himself conceived of his cycle,
although of course Jung came later than Wagner) see Robert Donnington's
"Wagner's Ring and its Symbols" A good read that treats difficult concepts
in a clear and easily understandable manner.
SEDD wrote in message <19990623235848...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...