'The Tristan Chord': Wagner as a Man of Ideas
Derrick Everett
> In ''The Tristan Chord,'' Bryan Magee's second book on Wagner, he sets
> out to disentangle fact from fable in the myriad accounts of Wagner's
> relationship to the philosophical tradition. Magee has a large advan-
> tage over most of those who have ventured into this territory. He is a
> professional philosopher with an uncanny ability to make philosophical
> positions clear to the nonprofessional reader.
Is this Magee's "Wagner and Philosophy" under a different title?
> He wears his allegiance to Wagner's music like a bumper sticker. Not for
> him the cold dispassion of a musicologist. He frankly accepts Wagner's
> self-assessment -- that he's a dramatist on the level of Shakespeare or
> the Greeks, a composer on the level of Beethoven. For a volume mostly
> focused on ideas, his book contains a surprising amount of musical
> insight, though perhaps not quite as much as its rather technical title
> might lead one to expect.
>
> Magee also takes Wagner seriously as a man of ideas, though he realizes
> that such ideas mostly served as grist for the composer's artistic mill.
> He even tries to sort out Wagner's qualities as a man. He understands
> why the composer has been so feared and vilified over the last 150
> years, and he is not uncritical. But, finally, he has a kinder judgment
> of Wagner as a human being than many have arrived at.
>
> ''The Tristan Chord'' begins, surprisingly enough, with a broad
> consideration of opera, its aesthetic and its history. Magee quickly
> narrows his scope to discuss the relationship of words to music in
> Wagner's work in particular: ''People who judge Wagner's writings or his
> libretti as if they were self-standing creations in language, and then
> base their idea of his abilities on such judgments, are making a
> mistake. It is rather as if they were to rate Shakespeare low because of
> the many historical inaccuracies in his plays. . . . Geniuses of such
> magnitude take as much of whatever they need from wherever they can get
> it. I have heard professors of mathematics pooh-pooh Einstein's
> abilities as a mathematician, and it is indeed true that he was not a
> particularly wonderful mathematician: he knew just as much mathematics
> as he needed to produce his physics.''
>
> One of Magee's more unusual critical judgments about Wagner's music is
> his advocacy of the two earliest operas, very seldom produced today --
> Die Feen'' and ''Das Liebesverbot'': ''No one, not even Mozart or
> Rossini, had written a better opera than 'Die Feen' by age 20,'' he
> says. Clearly he is more than an advocate. He is a fan.
> Soon he takes up his major task, placing the composer in the political,
> philosophical and cultural world of mid-19th-century Germany. Hegel,
> with his vision of the world as process and historical change, loomed
> hugely in the background. Germany was still a loose grouping of small
> fiefs, seen as repressive by modernist thinkers like the young Wagner.
> Political revolution seemed around the corner, and anarchy appeared a
> desirable alternative to the oppressive order of the day. The same
> milieu produced Marx and Engels. The composer played an active role in
> the 1849 Dresden uprising (though he tried to disguise his involvement
> in his later years).
>
<advertisement snipped>
>
> Magee details the philosophical reading (especially in Feuerbach) that
> lay behind Wagner's political stance and shows how great an impact his
> beliefs about society had on his libretti. Wagner's revolutionary
> activities made him a wanted man, so he took refuge in Switzerland. For
> a long time, he was better known for his prose polemics than his music
> -- his major scores after ''Lohengrin'' went unperformed for decades
> partly because of his political status.
>
> For Magee, the key moment in both Wagner's mature musical development
> and in his adult intellectual life came when he began to read
> Schopenhauer -- just as he was working on the score of ''Die Walkure.''
> The composer had reached a point of political and spiritual
> disillusionment. Schopenhauer's almost Buddhistic view of the world as
> a place of unfathomable darkness and suffering melded completely with
> Wagner's own changing perceptions. He read and reread the philosopher --
> both confirmed and spurred on by Schopenhauer's conviction that music,
> especially the best German music, was the very voice of the universe's
> own consciousness and desire to become.
I believe that Magee is right to draw attention to the overwhelming impact
of Schopenhauer and his influence on Wagner after those repeated readings
of "The World as Will and Representation" and the "minor works" in the
middle of the 1850s. (According to Wagner's autobiography "My Life" he
first opened Schopenhauer's most famous book after completing the fair
copy of the score of "Das Rheingold" on 26 September 1854, soon after
beginning the composition sketch for act 2 of "Die Walküre". The entire
poem of the "Ring" had already been published early in 1853.)
It should be noted, however, that Wagner's only *totally* Schopenhauerian
works are "Tristan und Isolde" and "Parsifal". The "Ring" never became
Schopenhauerian (although Wagner tried to retrofit this philosophy into
the end of "Götterdämmerung") and although its text contains clear
references to Schopenhauer's philosophy, "Die Meistersinger" had already
taken shape before the discovery of Schopenhauer. "Tristan" and
"Parsifal" were, as "Die Sieger" would have been too, fundamentally
Schopenhauerian from their beginnings, more so I believe than even most
Wagnerians have realised.
"Without Schopenhauer", writes Magee, "the creation of 'Tristan und
Isolde' and 'Parsifal' is unthinkable, out of the question, for essential
to their substance are metaphysical insights which Wagner had indeed
absorbed into his living tissue and made authentically his own but which
he would have been wholly incapable of arriving at by himself."
That Schopenhauer's world-view was (as he was delighted to discover for
himself) "almost Buddhistic" should be obvious to anyone familiar with the
doctrine of the Four Noble Truths. He failed to understand some Buddhist
concepts, however, quite understandably given the limited source material
available to him (his sources are listed in "On the Will in Nature", 1854
edition). These misunderstandings were passed on to Wagner.
> Not long afterwards, Wagner became stuck in the middle of writing the
> third of his four Ring operas, ''Siegfried.'' His reading of
> Schopenhauer had stimulated the idea for a different sort of work -- one
> that would embody the very restlessness and heartaching desire that are
> the primary qualities of the sentient world, according to the
> philosopher. Those ideas evolved into ''Tristan und Isolde.'' Magee
> demonstrates that the key musical ideas of both ''Tristan'' and Wagner's
> last opera, ''Parsifal,'' were inspired by a specific passage in
> Schopenhauer: his discussion of the musical device called
> ''suspension,'' in which one dissonant chord passes to another without a
> tonal resolution. Only one philosopher was so drenched in music as to
> have created a metaphor for one of his leading ideas out of musical
> theory. Only one composer was so deeply attracted to philosophy that he
> could take that perception and turn it into a major work of art.
It is not the technique of suspension that is important here. Schopenhauer
mentions it (in WWR book 3 chapter 39) only to illustrate the general
principle that the desire for resolution is increased by delaying that
resolution. He pointed out that this psycho-musical phenomenon was a
particular case of the general metaphysical (or as we might say today
psychological) phenomenon, that a desire or longing is increased by
delaying its satisfaction. This was beyond any doubt the new idea that
inspired Wagner to create "Tristan und Isolde", in which Isolde's highest
desire ("höchste Lust") is attained in the long-awaited release of musical
tension at the final and climactic B major cadence. This effect is echoed
in the climactic (triple) B major cadence at the heart of the third act of
"Parsifal", where however it has less to do with the attainment of desire
than with the extinction of desire.
Something similar happened at the conception of "Die Sieger" (the drama
that Wagner intended to write on the basis of a story that he found in
Burnouf's introduction to Buddhism). In that case it occurred to Wagner
that his leitmotiv technique was ideally suited for a story about
reincarnation.
> Wagner, not a notably shy personality, was so awed by Schopenhauer that
> he never attempted to meet him. But his enthusiasm for Schopenhauer and
> for Greek tragedy were the things that brought him together with a young
> classical philologist who was a fan of all three: Schopenhauer, the
> Greeks and Wagner. He was, of course, Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche was
> a 24-year-old prodigy when he met the much older Wagner. He had already
> earned a full professorship, but in a classics department, not one of
> philosophy. The composer found his conversation the most stimulating
> ever, because of their mutual interests. Nietzsche's hero worship didn't
> hurt, either. The younger man became virtually an adopted son, having
> access to Wagner's household for a dozen years.
>
> But Nietzsche didn't begin to write his major philosophical works until
> ''Parsifal'' was almost complete. Gradually he felt alienated from both
> Wagner and their mutual favorite, Schopenhauer. Only after the final
> break with the composer -- which Magee ascribes to a shocking bit of
> gossip Wagner thoughtlessly passed on from Nietzsche's physician -- did
> Nietzsche throw over his career as an academic and gain his fame, indeed
> notoriety, in philosophy.
>
> Magee keeps throwing in useful insights and judgments offhandedly,
> almost as asides. A limpid stylist himself, he calls Schopenhauer and
> Nietzsche two of the greatest prose writers in the German language.
> Wagner, on the other hand, he groups with Hegel and his followers as
> stylistically obscure almost as a matter of principle. (He excepts
> Wagner's autobiography.) ''The Tristan Chord'' also has a long appendix
> examining the question of Wagner's anti-Semitism. Magee doesn't deny the
> vehemence or indeed the virulence of the composer's feelings against
> Jews. In a time in which anti-Semitism was almost routine and socially
> acceptable, Wagner's excesses shocked even his friends. Magee does
> contend, however, that Wagner's failure in this regard was not an
> important influence on Hitler and did not even get the composer's works
> special treatment during the Nazi regime. Magee's explanation of the
> roots of Wagner's anti-Semitism in his paranoia isn't a defense of the
> composer's attitude, but it does constitute a kind of an apology.
>
> In fact, ''The Tristan Chord'' as a whole is an apology for Wagner's
> work, which might seem unnecessary in dealing with one of the most
> popular and frequently performed opera composers. Magee is right,
> though, in claiming that it is still fashionable in many circles to
> dismiss Wagner and his work as bombastic and vulgar, if not downright
> evil. Magee sticks up for the music -- not such a radical proposition.
> In so doing, he sticks up for the man and his ideas, which is a great
> deal braver.
>
> Lawson Taitte, the theater critic for The Dallas Morning News, also
> writes about music for the newspaper.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/02/books/review/
> 02TAITTET.html?ex=1008402804&ei=1&en=8274071153222222
>
--
Derrick Everett (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from 59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm
NBPalmer1
>
Indeed it is!
Regards, NICK/London
Tauser
works are "Tristan und Isolde" and "Parsifal". >>
There are elements, particularly in the whole opening monolog in the Third Act
of Die Meistersinger which is hoch-Schopenhauer.
Tauser
Derrick Everett
You are absolutely right. There are parts of the "Wahn" monologue
that are paraphrased directly from "The World as Will and
Representation". My point was that "Die Meistersinger" was not a
Schopenhauerian work from the beginning; indeed, it was conceived as a
"satyr-play" to accompany the tragedy of "Siegfrieds Tod". In the two
earlier prose drafts (maybe even in the third one; I've not read them
recently), that monologue at the beginning of the third act is about
the state of *poetry*. By the time he finished the poem Wagner's
scope had been expanded and that monologue is about the state of the
*world*.
In contrast to "Die Meistersinger", and as Magee correctly IMO states,
there are metaphysical concepts that are central both to T&I and to
"Parsifal", such that these works could not have existed had Wagner
not discovered Schopenhauer. This is why Wagner wrote in his
autobiography of his eternal gratitude to the Frankfurt philosopher.
Toni-ann Kram
news:pan.2001.12.05.20....@sneakemail.com...
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:46:28 +0100, Premise Checker wrote:
For some reason, my Mailgate list for this group did not show the post from
Checker ? However, the post from Derrick retained great portions of it, which
was most
fortunate. I found both these posts to be extremely interesting in many ways.
The Schopenhauer/Buddhist/Wagner link is a topic which has long interested me,
and about which I know less than I would like.
> That Schopenhauer's world-view was (as he was delighted to discover for
> himself) "almost Buddhistic" should be obvious to anyone familiar with the
> doctrine of the Four Noble Truths.
Yes.
> He failed to understand some Buddhist
> concepts, however, quite understandably given the limited source material
> available to him (his sources are listed in "On the Will in Nature", 1854
> edition). These misunderstandings were passed on to Wagner.
Does anyone know if there has been any discussion of the particular Buddhist
concepts that Schopenhauer did not encounter or that he failed to understand?
Or does one have to plough through all of the sources that he listed to get to
these?
> It is not the technique of suspension that is important here. Schopenhauer
> mentions it (in WWR book 3 chapter 39) only to illustrate the general
> principle that the desire for resolution is increased by delaying that
> resolution. He pointed out that this psycho-musical phenomenon was a
> particular case of the general metaphysical (or as we might say today
> psychological) phenomenon, that a desire or longing is increased by
> delaying its satisfaction. This was beyond any doubt the new idea that
> inspired Wagner to create "Tristan und Isolde", in which Isolde's highest
> desire ("höchste Lust") is attained in the long-awaited release of musical
> tension at the final and climactic B major cadence.
This is what one picks up when listening, even unconsciously.
> > ''The Tristan Chord'' also has a long appendix
> > examining the question of Wagner's anti-Semitism. Magee doesn't deny the
> > vehemence or indeed the virulence of the composer's feelings against
> > Jews. In a time in which anti-Semitism was almost routine and socially
> > acceptable, Wagner's excesses shocked even his friends. Magee does
> > contend, however, that Wagner's failure in this regard was not an
> > important influence on Hitler and did not even get the composer's works
> > special treatment during the Nazi regime. Magee's explanation of the
> > roots of Wagner's anti-Semitism in his paranoia isn't a defense of the
> > composer's attitude, but it does constitute a kind of an apology.
All this never-ending ranting about Wagner's anti-semitism astounds me.
As a judgement pertaining to the man, it is valid.
As a judgment pertaining to his music, it is not.
Do these critics not read a book because the author was gay, or a
non-Christian, etc, etc?
> > Magee is right,
> > though, in claiming that it is still fashionable in many circles to
> > dismiss Wagner and his work as bombastic and vulgar, if not downright
> > evil. Magee sticks up for the music -- not such a radical proposition.
> > In so doing, he sticks up for the man and his ideas, which is a great
> > deal braver.
The distinction must be made that he sticks up for only some of Wagner's
ideas. Sticking up for the music does no amount to sticking up for the man in
entirety.
Toni-Ann
--
Posted from cwpp-p-203-54-177-230.prem.tmns.net.au [203.54.177.230]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Derrick Everett
> "Derrick Everett" <behb0t...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2001.12.05.20....@sneakemail.com...
>
>> On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:46:28 +0100, Premise Checker wrote:
>
> For some reason, my Mailgate list for this group did not show the post
> from Checker ? However, the post from Derrick retained great portions
> of it, which was most fortunate. I found both these posts to be
> extremely interesting in many ways.
The original posting was to three of the rec.music.* groups. I quoted
most of the original and directed replies to this group, where it was more
appropriate, I thought.
> The Schopenhauer/Buddhist/Wagner link is a topic which has long
> interested me, and about which I know less than I would like.
Concerning the influence of Buddhist ideas you might like to read
Osthoff's perceptive study of "Die Sieger" ("Richard Wagners
Buddha-Prosjekt 'Die Sieger': Seine ideellen und strukturellen Spuren in
'Ring' und 'Parsifal'", Arkiv für Musikwissenschaft 40:3, 1983, pp
189-211) which covers some aspects such as Wagner's fascination with ideas
of reincarnation. The wider topic of Wagner's engagement with the ideas
of India, including certain forms of Buddhism, Hinduism and the Vedic
literature, was discussed at length by the Sanskrit scholar Carl Suneson
in his monograph "Richard Wagner och den indiske tankevärlden", perhaps
more accessible to readers of this group in its German translation,
"Richard Wagner und die indische Geistewelt". I am told that a lengthy
article on the Buddhist ideas in "Parsifal" was published earlier this
year.
>> That Schopenhauer's world-view was (as he was delighted to discover for
>> himself) "almost Buddhistic" should be obvious to anyone familiar with
>> the doctrine of the Four Noble Truths.
>
> Yes.
Indeed one could say that Schopenhauer, knowing nothing of the eastern
traditions, discovered three of the Four Noble Truths for himself.
>> He failed to understand some Buddhist
>> concepts, however, quite understandably given the limited source
>> material available to him (his sources are listed in "On the Will in
>> Nature", 1854 edition). These misunderstandings were passed on to
>> Wagner.
>
> Does anyone know if there has been any discussion of the particular
> Buddhist concepts that Schopenhauer did not encounter or that he failed
> to understand? Or does one have to plough through all of the sources
> that he listed to get to these?
Most of the discussion that I've read has concerned the misinterpretation
of the concept of "nirvana", a Sanskrit word that means literally
"extinction", sometimes explained by analogy to the blowing out of the
flame of a candle. Schopenhauer at first identified "nirvana" with
non-existence but realised his mistake (which he corrected in the third
edition of WWR) on reading more about the concept in Robert Spence Hardy's
"Manual of Buddhism", 1853. Actually Spence Hardy doesn't give a very
clear explanation of the concept either; he complained that the Buddhist
monks with whom he discussed this concept seemed to have difficulty in
explaining it and he received rather divergent explanations. This and
related concepts did not become clear to western thinkers until the
translation of the Pali canon (the "three baskets") towards the end of the
19th century. For Wagner's reception of these ideas, see G.R.Welbon's
"The Buddhist Nirvana and its Western Interpreters", 1968, pp 171-184.
Didrik Schiele
> The Schopenhauer/Buddhist/Wagner link is a topic which has long interested me,
> and about which I know less than I would like.
There is a highly interesting study on this by Carl Suneson named
"Richard Wagner och den Indiska Tankevärlden" (="Richard Wagner and
the Indiite World of Thinking") from 1985. Few reads Swedish but there
is a translation avaliable in German although it is very difficult to
find. There is also a summary essay by Mats Norrman on one of the more
prominent Wagner-pages. I don't have the details at hand but those who
take specific interest in this can write to me privately, and I will
try to search out upon interest.
Didrik Schiele
d.sc...@sol.dk
Toni-ann Kram
> Concerning the influence of Buddhist ideas you might like to read
> Osthoff's perceptive study of "Die Sieger" ("Richard Wagners
> Buddha-Prosjekt 'Die Sieger': Seine ideellen und strukturellen Spuren in
> 'Ring' und 'Parsifal'", Arkiv für Musikwissenschaft 40:3, 1983, pp
> 189-211) which covers some aspects such as Wagner's fascination with ideas
> of reincarnation. The wider topic of Wagner's engagement with the ideas
> of India, including certain forms of Buddhism, Hinduism and the Vedic
> literature, was discussed at length by the Sanskrit scholar Carl Suneson
> in his monograph "Richard Wagner och den indiske tankevärlden", perhaps
> more accessible to readers of this group in its German translation,
> "Richard Wagner und die indische Geistewelt".
Thank you for these great references.
Does this mean that one has to plough through the German versions?
> I am told that a lengthy article on the Buddhist ideas in "Parsifal" was published earlier this
> year.
Could you follow that lead up?
I would imagine that it would be of great interest to many readers in this
group.
> > Does anyone know if there has been any discussion of the particular
> > Buddhist concepts that Schopenhauer did not encounter or that he failed
> > to understand? Or does one have to plough through all of the sources
> > that he listed to get to these?
>
> Most of the discussion that I've read has concerned the misinterpretation
> of the concept of "nirvana", a Sanskrit word that means literally
> "extinction", sometimes explained by analogy to the blowing out of the
> flame of a candle. Schopenhauer at first identified "nirvana" with
> non-existence but realised his mistake (which he corrected in the third
> edition of WWR) on reading more about the concept in Robert Spence Hardy's
> "Manual of Buddhism", 1853.
Ah, ha! Now that has filled in a important gap for me. I never read the
corrected version of WWR.
Did not realize that there were more versions than the original.
For Wagner's reception of these ideas, see G.R.Welbon's
> "The Buddhist Nirvana and its Western Interpreters", 1968, pp 171-184.
That will be a must-read for me. I wonder if it is still in print?
Thank you for this right-on-topic information.
Toni-Ann
--
Posted from ess-p-144-134-68-209.mega.tmns.net.au [144.134.68.209]
Derrick Everett
> "Derrick Everett" <behb0t...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
>
>> Concerning the influence of Buddhist ideas you might like to read
>> Osthoff's perceptive study of "Die Sieger" ("Richard Wagners
>> Buddha-Prosjekt 'Die Sieger': Seine ideellen und strukturellen Spuren
>> in 'Ring' und 'Parsifal'", Arkiv für Musikwissenschaft 40:3, 1983, pp
>> 189-211) which covers some aspects such as Wagner's fascination with
>> ideas of reincarnation. The wider topic of Wagner's engagement with
>> the ideas of India, including certain forms of Buddhism, Hinduism and
>> the Vedic literature, was discussed at length by the Sanskrit scholar
>> Carl Suneson in his monograph "Richard Wagner och den indiske
>> tankevärlden", perhaps more accessible to readers of this group in its
>> German translation, "Richard Wagner und die indische Geistewelt".
>
> Thank you for these great references. Does this mean that one has to
> plough through the German versions?
Unfortunately very little of this material is available in English (or in
French) and so those of us who are sufficiently motivated have to "plough
through the German versions". With the exception of Professor Suneson's
little book, which was first published in Swedish, a language I can read
more easily than German. (Suneson was very good on the Buddhist source
material but in his discussion of the sources of the swan incident in the
first act of "Parsifal" he overlooks the vital question of what that
incident signifies; a case of not seeing the forest for the trees).
>> I am told that a lengthy article on the Buddhist ideas in "Parsifal"
>> was published earlier this year.
>
> Could you follow that lead up? I would imagine that it would be of
> great interest to many readers in this group.
Many of the readers of this group will have realised that I was referring
to my own article about "Parsifal", written in the second half of 2000,
which appeared in a recent version of the journal "Wagner". Since you ask
for follow-up, here is a short excerpt from the (rather provocative)
introduction to my article:
"This article will show that the spiritual content of 'Parsifal' and in
particular Wagner's [final] idea of redemption originated in Mahayana
Buddhism. It will show that the elements drawn from Buddhist legend that
appear in 'Parsifal' are not incidental but used consistently to give form
to the drama. It will show that 'Parsifal' was written around the
archetype of a 'Bodhisattva': one who finds and follows the path to 'total
enlightenment' (*) in order to bring other beings release from suffering.
As the Bodhisattva grows in wisdom and compassion, each of these balances
and reinforces the other. He escapes from ignorance and illusion as he
progressively awakens. Following the path of enlightenment he develops in
the six 'paramitas' or perfections. When each of them has been developed
to its highest degree the Bodhisattva awakens (from the life-dream) to
Buddhahood and becomes a fountain of karma (merit). Then instead of
entering into 'nirvana' he chooses to pause on the threshold out of his
great compassion ... for those sentient beings who are still trapped in
'samsara': the cycle of rebirth, suffering and death, to which in Buddhist
doctrine even gods are subject."
[ * that is, the concept denoted by the Sanskrit term: anuttara samyak
sambodhi]
The content of my article has proved somewhat controversial. Among other
things I argued (on the basis of one of Wagner's letters in which he
discussed reincarnation) that where Wagner uses the word "purity" in the
poem of "Parsifal" we should read it as meaning "positive karma". The
prevailing and very different view of "Parsifal" as a Christian "morality
play" is reiterated by Lucy Beckett in the programme for the current
production at Covent Garden. It is one that I am sure Wagner would have
called "Jesuitical".
I should point out that I have not argued a case for "Parsifal" as a
Buddhist drama. In my opinion it is not a Buddhist drama, nor is it a
Christian drama, indeed it is not a "religious work", although (like
"Tristan") it deals with existential questions. It is Buddhistic to the
extent that it relies on Buddhist ideas (as received by Wagner mainly via
Schopenhauer) such as those of reincarnation and "karma". I was pleased
to read the following comment in Magee's recent book: "... 'Parsifal' is
as much Buddhistic as it is Christian. It is both only in the sense that
it is Schopenhauerian, perhaps as Schopenhauerian as 'Tristan und
Isolde'".
I disagree with Magee only to the extent that I would have left out the
"perhaps" in that last sentence. In my view, the most important
difference between T&I and "Parsifal" is that the former is more concerned
with Schopenhauer's metaphysics, whereas the latter is more concerned with
his ethics; I should add that this only a difference of emphasis. It
might not be too great a simplification to say that, where T&I is about
the desire for extinction, "Parsifal" is about the extinction of desire.
>> > Does anyone know if there has been any discussion of the particular
>> > Buddhist concepts that Schopenhauer did not encounter or that he
>> > failed to understand? Or does one have to plough through all of the
>> > sources that he listed to get to these?
>>
>> Most of the discussion that I've read has concerned the
>> misinterpretation of the concept of "nirvana", a Sanskrit word that
>> means literally "extinction", sometimes explained by analogy to the
>> blowing out of the flame of a candle. Schopenhauer at first identified
>> "nirvana" with non-existence but realised his mistake (which he
>> corrected in the third edition of WWR) on reading more about the
>> concept in Robert Spence Hardy's "Manual of Buddhism", 1853.
>
> Ah, ha! Now that has filled in a important gap for me. I never read
> the corrected version of WWR. Did not realize that there were more
> versions than the original.
There were three editions of "Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung". The
first one was a single volume published when the philosopher was 30 and
sure enough of his own genius to schedule his own lectures to coincide
with those of Hegel (whom he called "a charlatan")! In the second edition
(1844) this was corrected and a second volume added, which expanded on the
same ideas. This was the edition that Wagner read in 1854. When reading
Wagner's letters written in the late 1850s one should be aware that his
references to Schopenhauer are based on this second edition, not on the
third (1859) edition (essentially the one in print today) that Wagner
obtained no earlier than 1860. This distinction is important in relation
to Wagner's engagement with ideas of reincarnation, "nirvana" and "karma",
which was coloured by Schopenhauer's imperfect understanding of these
concepts as presented in the second edition but corrected in the third. I
was disappointed to find that Magee (who knows all this stuff better than
any of us) did not mention this (probably because he was writing for a
wider, non-specialist public); indeed I found his treatment of Wagner's
relationship to the philosophy of Schopenhauer to be superficial.
If you go into the Salon of Haus Wahnfried, in the second bookcase on the
wall to your left (on the bottom shelf I think) are Wagner's (final)
copies of Schopenhauer's books. As noted above these are not necessarily
the only editions that he read. Just for the record his Bayreuth library
includes the following books by Schopenhauer:
1. "Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung", 3rd edition, 1859.
2. "Über die vierfache Wurzel des Satzes vom zureichenden Grunde", 2nd
edition, 1847.
3. "Über den Willen in der Natur", 2nd edition, 1854.
4. "Die beiden Grundprobleme der Ethik", 1841: this consists of the two
"prize essays" respectively concerning free will (1838) and the basis of
morality (1839).
5. "Parerga und Paralipomena", 1851, both volumes.
6. "Parerga und Paralipomena", 1874, volume one only.
7. "Handschriftlicher Nachlass", edited by Frauenstädt, 1864.
> For Wagner's reception of these ideas, see G.R.Welbon's
>> "The Buddhist Nirvana and its Western Interpreters", 1968, pp 171-184.
>
> That will be a must-read for me. I wonder if it is still in print?
Long since out-of-print I'm afraid. Ask your nearest librarian!
Derrick Everett
> "Toni-ann Kram" <tad...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Schopenhauer/Buddhist/Wagner link is a topic which has long
> > interested me, and about which I know less than I would like.
>
> There is a highly interesting study on this by Carl Suneson named
> "Richard Wagner och den Indiska Tankevärlden" (="Richard Wagner and
> the Indiite
Indian
> World of Thinking") from 1985. Few reads Swedish but there
> is a translation avaliable in German although it is very difficult to
> find. There is also a summary essay by Mats Norrman on one of the more
> prominent Wagner-pages. I don't have the details at hand but those who
> take specific interest in this can write to me privately, and I will
> try to search out upon interest.
I found Norrman's summary essay to be confused and written in rather
awkward English (although probably no worse than my Swedish). Anyone
interested in Wagner's interest in Indian legends and the religious
and philosophical ideas of India (mainly Vedic and Buddhist) should
read the book. The German translation was available from amazon.de
when I last checked. The following information is taken from the
Wagner Books FAQ at < http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/booksfaq.htm > --
Title: Richard Wagner och den indiska tankevärlden (Swedish original)
Alternative title:Richard Wagner und die Indische Geisteswelt (German
translation)
Original Language: Swedish
Author(s): Carl Suneson
Translator(s): Gert Kreutzer (German)
Publication date: 1985
Place published: Stockholm (Swedish); Leiden (German)
Publisher: Almqvist and Wiksell International (Swedish); Brill
Academic Publishers Inc. (German)
Identification: ISBN 91 22 00775 X (Swedish), ISBN 9 0040 8859 8
(German)
Series: Stockholm Oriental Studies
Volume: 13
Keywords: India Ceylon Buddhism Hinduism
Abstract: This is the only extended study of Richard Wagner's interest
in Indian literature and religions, and its influence on his works.
The original is in Swedish, but it has been translated into German.
Didrik Schiele
> d.sc...@sol.dk (Didrik Schiele)
> > There is a highly interesting study on this by Carl Suneson named
> > "Richard Wagner och den Indiska Tankevärlden" (="Richard Wagner and
> > the Indiite
>
> Indian
I want to avoid "Indian" as it in some cases doesn't make difference
to the Indians of India and those Cristoforo Columbo thought (or
wished) were Indians = The American natives, Indians.
> > World of Thinking") from 1985. Few reads Swedish but there
> > is a translation avaliable in German although it is very difficult to
> > find. There is also a summary essay by Mats Norrman on one of the more
> > prominent Wagner-pages. I don't have the details at hand but those who
> > take specific interest in this can write to me privately, and I will
> > try to search out upon interest.
>
> I found Norrman's summary essay to be confused and written in rather
> awkward English (although probably no worse than my Swedish). Anyone
> interested in Wagner's interest in Indian legends and the religious
> and philosophical ideas of India (mainly Vedic and Buddhist) should
> read the book. The German translation was available from amazon.de
> when I last checked. The following information is taken from the
> Wagner Books FAQ at < http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/booksfaq.htm > --
Mr. Norrmans English has its faults but he is a fabulous writer in his
native tounge (Swedish) so that is a pity, but a person doesn't
necessary have talent for foregin languages just because he masters
his native excellently. Native (childlearned) and foregin languages
are und zwar comprehended by different centras of the brain. However
we should not complain, but be glad that someone took the time, and
the tediuos work it might be, to write a long essay in what perhaps is
ones third language, to draw others attention to a decent study.
Sorry to Mr. Norrman if he reads this that I use his brain for a
proto-antropologigal study :-) I enjoyed the effort anyway.
Didrik Schiele
d.sc...@sol.dk