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Richard Partridge
May 9, 2013, 4:51:09 PM5/9/13
to
Here is a description of the production of “Tannhäuser” in Germany which has been reported by other members of this group. This account is from today’s Forward, the Jewish daily.
Dick Partridge
* * * * *
A new production of Richard Wagner’s “Tannhauser” opera in Dusseldorf, which drew harsh criticism for staging Nazi atrocities, has been cancelled after less than a week.
At opening performances by the Deutsche Oper am Rhein company at the Dusseldorf Opera House over the weekend, the audience reacted negatively to scenes featuring the gassing of concentration camp prisoners, and the banned Hitler salute and swastika armband. In one scene, a mother, father and daughter are led up by members of the Wehrmacht; their clothes are removed and they are shaved, and shot.
The opera company had considered making changes to the staging, set in a Nazi concentration camp during the Holocaust, but the opera company’s director Burkhard Kosminski refused to make any changes for artistic reasons, the BBC reported Thursday.
The production has been cancelled, though concert performances are still scheduled.
“After considering all the arguments, we have come to the conclusion that we cannot justify such an extreme impact of our artistic work,” said the Deutsche Oper am Rhein company said in a statement. The realistic scenes caused “psychological and physical stress” to some audience members, according to the statement.
The original “Tannhauser” was set in Germany in the Middle Ages, and was first performed in Dresden in 1845.
Many eschew Wagner’s music because of the admiration that Hitler held for Wagner as well as the composer’s alleged anti-Semitism.
Dick Partridge
* * * * *
A new production of Richard Wagner’s “Tannhauser” opera in Dusseldorf, which drew harsh criticism for staging Nazi atrocities, has been cancelled after less than a week.
At opening performances by the Deutsche Oper am Rhein company at the Dusseldorf Opera House over the weekend, the audience reacted negatively to scenes featuring the gassing of concentration camp prisoners, and the banned Hitler salute and swastika armband. In one scene, a mother, father and daughter are led up by members of the Wehrmacht; their clothes are removed and they are shaved, and shot.
The opera company had considered making changes to the staging, set in a Nazi concentration camp during the Holocaust, but the opera company’s director Burkhard Kosminski refused to make any changes for artistic reasons, the BBC reported Thursday.
The production has been cancelled, though concert performances are still scheduled.
“After considering all the arguments, we have come to the conclusion that we cannot justify such an extreme impact of our artistic work,” said the Deutsche Oper am Rhein company said in a statement. The realistic scenes caused “psychological and physical stress” to some audience members, according to the statement.
The original “Tannhauser” was set in Germany in the Middle Ages, and was first performed in Dresden in 1845.
Many eschew Wagner’s music because of the admiration that Hitler held for Wagner as well as the composer’s alleged anti-Semitism.
Mike Scott Rohan
May 9, 2013, 6:04:57 PM5/9/13
to
We know this, of course, but with idiots like Rose shooting his mouth off, the paper could stand to get a balanced view.
Cheers,
Mike
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 9, 2013, 8:00:19 PM5/9/13
to
Mike Scott Rohan schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
I read a few German newspapers on-line, in which the Dusseldorf Jewish
community strongly prtestred. Their president aknowledged that Wagner
was known as a antisemite, but even so, he had absolutely nothing to do
with the holocaust. Even the Israel embassy in Germany raised eyebrows.
Maybe - very wishful thinking, I know - theatre mnagers and directors
will understand that it is all going to far. Wagner, and Meyerbeer, and
Verdi, and Mozart, and Puccini were composers of opras who lived inthe
18th century, 19th century and early 20th century. Their operas should
be treated as such and even then the operas will give clever directors
quite a lot of opportunities to get personal stagings.
Yes, very wishful thinking...
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers!
Herman van der Woude
community strongly prtestred. Their president aknowledged that Wagner
was known as a antisemite, but even so, he had absolutely nothing to do
with the holocaust. Even the Israel embassy in Germany raised eyebrows.
Maybe - very wishful thinking, I know - theatre mnagers and directors
will understand that it is all going to far. Wagner, and Meyerbeer, and
Verdi, and Mozart, and Puccini were composers of opras who lived inthe
18th century, 19th century and early 20th century. Their operas should
be treated as such and even then the operas will give clever directors
quite a lot of opportunities to get personal stagings.
Yes, very wishful thinking...
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Cheers!
Herman van der Woude
Richard Partridge
May 10, 2013, 12:22:40 PM5/10/13
to
This article from today’s New York Times gives more details about the demented performance of Tannhäuser in Germany that we’ve been writing about.
Dick Partridge
* * * * *
May 9, 2013
Germans Boo Nazi Scenes in an Opera by Wagner
By NICHOLAS KULISH
BERLIN — Just in time for Richard Wagner’s bicentennial this month, a controversy has erupted over a new production of the opera “Tannhäuser” in Düsseldorf because of violent depictions of a Nazi concentration camp in its staging.
A cascade of boos during Saturday’s opening night performance turned into a flood of complaints about scenes of shootings and gassings. The management of Düsseldorf’s Deutsche Oper am Rhein, which is putting on the new production, quickly decided that it was better heard than seen, announcing that it would now be performed as a concert, with singing and music but little in the way of staging or costumes.
“We are reacting with the utmost concern to the fact that a few scenes, particularly a very realistic depiction of a shooting scene, obviously led to great stress for numerous visitors,” the opera company said Wednesday in a statement on its Web site. “After considering all the arguments, we have come to the conclusion that we cannot justify such an extreme effect of our artistic work.”
German society has never fully come to terms with Wagner’s mixture of artistic brilliance, poisonous anti-Semitism and, in particular, his posthumous exaltation at the hands of the Nazis. More than 130 years after his death, his popularity remains undimmed but is no less problematic for it.
Debates about the composer’s place in German culture have reached a new high point with the yearlong celebration of his work that has accompanied what would have been his 200th birthday on May 22. There has been an outpouring of performances, exhibitions and books about Wagner. His hometown, Leipzig, will unveil a monument on his birthday, a life-size bronze statue of him with an even larger silhouette looming like a dark shadow behind it.
The newsmagazine Der Spiegel this year featured a picture on its cover of the composer holding a fire-breathing dragon on his lap, with the words “200 Years of Richard Wagner: The Mad Genius.” For many, Wagner has come to symbolize the seeds of anti-Semitic sentiment in German culture that would grow into the Nazi terror. “Richard Wagner’s legacy prompts the question: Can Germans enjoy any part of their history in a carefree way?” Der Spiegel’s story asked.
It was less than a year ago that the Russian bass-baritone Evgeny Nikitin had to resign from the Bayreuth Festival production of “The Flying Dutchman” over a tattoo that appeared to be a swastika on his chest. Chancellor Angela Merkel is among the prominent Germans who make the pilgrimage to Bayreuth each summer for the annual festival, which is run by Wagner’s descendants.
Many Germans prefer to dwell less on the Third Reich, World War II and the Holocaust. But the legacy of the period has been hard to leave behind, as is illustrated by the trial that began in Munich this week of the surviving member of a neo-Nazi group accused of a series of anti-immigrant murders.
It is not uncommon for stage productions in Germany to incorporate totalitarian themes as the country continues to examine its troubled 20th-century past. According to news media reports, the opera showed the title character dressed as a concentration camp guard shooting Jewish prisoners. The opera’s statement said distraught audience members even sought medical attention after watching the depictions of executions.
The director, Burkhard C. Kosminski, declined to make changes to soften the impact of the violence. He told the newspaper Westdeutsche Zeitung that he had been completely transparent with the opera house about his intent for the production and that he was not a “scandal director.”
“It would be good if the debate continued,” Mr. Kosminski said, “and we learned what the underlying reasons were for this great emotionality.”
Germans Boo Nazi Scenes in an Opera by Wagner
By NICHOLAS KULISHA cascade of boos during Saturday’s opening night performance turned into a flood of complaints about scenes of shootings and gassings. The management of Düsseldorf’s Deutsche Oper am Rhein, which is putting on the new production, quickly decided that it was better heard than seen, announcing that it would now be performed as a concert, with singing and music but little in the way of staging or costumes.
“We are reacting with the utmost concern to the fact that a few scenes, particularly a very realistic depiction of a shooting scene, obviously led to great stress for numerous visitors,” the opera company said Wednesday in a statement on its Web site. “After considering all the arguments, we have come to the conclusion that we cannot justify such an extreme effect of our artistic work.”
German society has never fully come to terms with Wagner’s mixture of artistic brilliance, poisonous anti-Semitism and, in particular, his posthumous exaltation at the hands of the Nazis. More than 130 years after his death, his popularity remains undimmed but is no less problematic for it.
Debates about the composer’s place in German culture have reached a new high point with the yearlong celebration of his work that has accompanied what would have been his 200th birthday on May 22. There has been an outpouring of performances, exhibitions and books about Wagner. His hometown, Leipzig, will unveil a monument on his birthday, a life-size bronze statue of him with an even larger silhouette looming like a dark shadow behind it.
The newsmagazine Der Spiegel this year featured a picture on its cover of the composer holding a fire-breathing dragon on his lap, with the words “200 Years of Richard Wagner: The Mad Genius.” For many, Wagner has come to symbolize the seeds of anti-Semitic sentiment in German culture that would grow into the Nazi terror. “Richard Wagner’s legacy prompts the question: Can Germans enjoy any part of their history in a carefree way?” Der Spiegel’s story asked.
It was less than a year ago that the Russian bass-baritone Evgeny Nikitin had to resign from the Bayreuth Festival production of “The Flying Dutchman” over a tattoo that appeared to be a swastika on his chest. Chancellor Angela Merkel is among the prominent Germans who make the pilgrimage to Bayreuth each summer for the annual festival, which is run by Wagner’s descendants.
Many Germans prefer to dwell less on the Third Reich, World War II and the Holocaust. But the legacy of the period has been hard to leave behind, as is illustrated by the trial that began in Munich this week of the surviving member of a neo-Nazi group accused of a series of anti-immigrant murders.
It is not uncommon for stage productions in Germany to incorporate totalitarian themes as the country continues to examine its troubled 20th-century past. According to news media reports, the opera showed the title character dressed as a concentration camp guard shooting Jewish prisoners. The opera’s statement said distraught audience members even sought medical attention after watching the depictions of executions.
The director, Burkhard C. Kosminski, declined to make changes to soften the impact of the violence. He told the newspaper Westdeutsche Zeitung that he had been completely transparent with the opera house about his intent for the production and that he was not a “scandal director.”
“It would be good if the debate continued,” Mr. Kosminski said, “and we learned what the underlying reasons were for this great emotionality.”
Bert Coules
May 10, 2013, 1:51:14 PM5/10/13
to
Quite apart from any questions of inappropriateness, I would be very
interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took place.
Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news
reports?
interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took place.
Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news
reports?
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 10, 2013, 2:07:45 PM5/10/13
to
Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
As far as I understood it from reviews from German newspapers on-line
the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
stopped, yes, indeed, halted, Tannhï¿œuser - who was dressed as a
concentration camp guardian and who had a swastika thing around his arm
- was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
(father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
[NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
stopped, yes, indeed, halted, Tannhï¿œuser - who was dressed as a
concentration camp guardian and who had a swastika thing around his arm
- was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
(father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
Bert Coules
May 10, 2013, 2:15:28 PM5/10/13
to
Herman,
Thanks for that. I suspected that the Venusberg scene would be involved,
but hadn't anticipated the stopping of the music: it's an interesting idea
and would be extremely powerful, I suspect, though without having seen the
entire show I can't comment on what happened in the ensuing silence.
Thanks for that. I suspected that the Venusberg scene would be involved,
but hadn't anticipated the stopping of the music: it's an interesting idea
and would be extremely powerful, I suspect, though without having seen the
entire show I can't comment on what happened in the ensuing silence.
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 10, 2013, 4:42:37 PM5/10/13
to
Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
find a doctor the moment he left the audience, the tensions provoked by
watching what he saw did almost explode his blood pressure, another
one, not even a German, not even a Jew, but a Romanian left crying.
What he saw reminded him of his own experiences under the Ceaucescu
regime. The president of the Dusseldorf Jewish community came into
defence of Wagner, by stating that Wagner was an infamous ant-semite,
but he had absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust and even the
ambassador of a small country in the Middle East, where Wagner's music
and operas are never performed (quizz question? No, Israel) spoke of
any lack of any good taste in this production.
Did I mention that Wolfram von Eschenbach had to rape Elisabeth, who
was dressed as a nun? "Oh, Du holder Abendstern"?
The whole show was based on German history during the Third Reich and
directly afterward, the West-German Adenauer period.
Richard Partridge
May 10, 2013, 4:40:34 PM5/10/13
to
On 5/10/13 2:07 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
following:
> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> Quite apart from any questions of inappropriateness, I would be very
>> interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took place.
>> Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news reports?
>
> As far as I understood it from reviews from German newspapers on-line
> the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
> Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
> stopped, yes, indeed, halted, Tannh�user - who was dressed as a
Dick Partridge
following:
> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> Quite apart from any questions of inappropriateness, I would be very
>> interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took place.
>> Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news reports?
>
> As far as I understood it from reviews from German newspapers on-line
> the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
> Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
> concentration camp guardian and who had a swastika thing around his arm
> - was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
> (father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
> shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
> this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
I couldn't agree with you more.
> - was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
> (father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
> shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
> this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
Dick Partridge
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 10, 2013, 5:13:00 PM5/10/13
to
Richard Partridge schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
[NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
> On 5/10/13 2:07 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
> following:
>
>> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
>> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>>
>>> Quite apart from any questions of inappropriateness, I would be very
>>> interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took
>>> place. Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news
>>> reports?
>>
>> As far as I understood it from reviews from German newspapers on-line
>> the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
>> Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
>> stopped, yes, indeed, halted, Tannhï¿œuser - who was dressed as a
> On 5/10/13 2:07 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
> following:
>
>> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
>> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>>
>>> Quite apart from any questions of inappropriateness, I would be very
>>> interested to learn exactly when in the piece the shooting scene took
>>> place. Does anyone here know? Has it been mentioned in any reviews or news
>>> reports?
>>
>> As far as I understood it from reviews from German newspapers on-line
>> the gassing took place during the prelude to the first act (the
>> Venusberg music) in Glass cubicles. After the prelude the music was
>> concentration camp guardian and who had a swastika thing around his arm
>> - was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
>> (father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
>> shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
>> this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
>
>
> I couldn't agree with you more.
>
>
> Dick Partridge
But I do hope you'll excuse my very bad spelling... :/
>> - was handed over a pistol and "forced" to shoot a young family
>> (father, mother and a daughter of the age of around eigt) with neck
>> shot. The three victims had to undress naked first. Even it I wroite
>> this down, and I never saw it, it feels utterly testeless.
>
>
> I couldn't agree with you more.
>
>
> Dick Partridge
Bert Coules
May 10, 2013, 5:55:40 PM5/10/13
to
Herman van der Woude wrote:
> Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to
> find a doctor the moment he left the audience...
> Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to
Herman, you've misunderstood what I said: I was talking about the general
idea of suddenly stopping the music: that's what I think could be a powerful
theatrical moment. I wasn't talking about the specifics of this particular
staging.
Yes, this production does sound shocking. But how long is it is since
familiar, boring old Tannhï¿œuser provoked such an outcry? Not since the
premiere, perhaps?
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 10, 2013, 7:21:20 PM5/10/13
to
Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it
is in the score. You won't find (long) stops in the score of
Tannhï¿œuser, except of course, for the interfall between the acts. So,
if a director puts a stop in the music on a place where a stop is not
written down, he is in fact changing what the composer wrote. You just
cannot do that. We already feel uneasy when for practical reasons cuts
are made in operas (Goodall in The Mastersingers, and he did it as the
public had to be able to get the last tube in time!). And talking about
powerful theatrical moments, I think Wagner - even the young Wagner who
wrote Tannhï¿œuser - was very capable of thinking of that. Never a dull
moment with Wagner! That brings me to your second remark.
We all do know that Wagner himself was not too pleased with Tannhï¿œuser,
whatever version, "I owe the world another Tannhï¿œuser", he wrote in old
age., But whatever you say, neither the theme of the opera, nor the
story, nor the music are boring - even if it is staged traditionally.
The opera, both score and libretto, offers enough inspiration to make
it an exciting story, in which I don't need a history lesson or - as I
saw it in Amsterdam - as a parody of the Eurovision Song Festival
(including Elvis Presley imitations and showroom staircases).
REP
May 10, 2013, 7:22:36 PM5/10/13
to
On Friday, May 10, 2013 2:55:40 PM UTC-7, Bert Coules wrote:
> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>
>
>
> > Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to
>
> > find a doctor the moment he left the audience...
>
>
>
> Herman, you've misunderstood what I said: I was talking about the general
>
> idea of suddenly stopping the music: that's what I think could be a powerful
>
> theatrical moment. I wasn't talking about the specifics of this particular
>
> staging.
>
Speaking of which, Carmelites has a heart-wrenching measure of silence towards the end, and it is quite an effective moment. But as I tool, I think silence can be terribly unpredictable in theater.
> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>
>
>
> > Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to
>
> > find a doctor the moment he left the audience...
>
>
>
> Herman, you've misunderstood what I said: I was talking about the general
>
> idea of suddenly stopping the music: that's what I think could be a powerful
>
> theatrical moment. I wasn't talking about the specifics of this particular
>
> staging.
>
REP
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 10, 2013, 7:39:01 PM5/10/13
to
REP schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
I didn't think of that yet! Think of a planned silence for the dramatic
effect and then think again of an audience coughing and sneezing...
effect and then think again of an audience coughing and sneezing...
Bert Coules
May 10, 2013, 8:31:53 PM5/10/13
to
Herman van der Woude wrote:
> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it is
> in the score... So, if a director puts a stop in the music on
> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it is
> a place where a stop is not written down, he is in fact changing what
> the composer wrote. You just cannot do that... We already feel
> uneasy when for practical reasons cuts are made in operas...
Go easy with that "we", Herman. I've no particular qualms about cuts in
operas, including those by Wagner, whether for practical or artistic
reasons. The same goes for other changes, under the right circumstances.
Something that makes an audience experience these works with new eyes and
ears is not necessarily bad. Familiarity doesn't necessarily breed contempt
but it can and does lead to complacency.
> ...neither the theme of the opera, nor the story, nor the music are
> boring...
Again, I disagree. For me, and I venture to suggest for others too, there
are stretches of Tannhäuser, in both versions but the Paris one especially,
that stop the work dead in its tracks and aren't musically interesting
enough to compensate for the dramatic lull. The same is true of most of the
operas: the cuts in the first Sadler's Wells Mastersingers were, as you say,
made because they had to be but they did no particular damage and at least
one pro- Wagnerian critic remarked at the time that he considered them an
improvement.
Plays, even great classics, are commonly cut and reshaped and no-one reacts
in horror. Why should operas be any different?
Bert Coules
May 10, 2013, 8:34:14 PM5/10/13
to
"REP" wrote:
> But as I tool, I think silence can be terribly unpredictable in theater.
And I agree, of course. But the wonderful thing - or one of the wonderful
> But as I tool, I think silence can be terribly unpredictable in theater.
things - about the theatre is that *everything* not only can be, but is,
unpredictable. Risk is an important element in the experience.
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 11, 2013, 5:46:58 AM5/11/13
to
Bert Coules schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
"we", Herman", you do exactly the same, as I notice.
Lately, perhaps a few years ago, I saw on television a BBC adaptation
of Shakespeare's Macbeth. It was set in some unnamed middle European
country around 1938. Could be a fascist country, or a Nazi country,
even a Stalinist country, or even yet another, but unnamed dark
dictatorship. Did it bring something new for the play? No, it highly
disturbed Shakespeare's text.
The same sort of things happen in my little country. Shakespeare plays
are not put on stage in the original English version as almost nobody
would understand the 16th century English of Shakespeare, so they are
translated into Dutch, nowadays Dutch of course (no-one dares to make a
translation into 16th century Dutch, though with some cleverness that
could be done). Alterations are made, cuts are made, scenes are changed
and it just doesn't work. It are no longer the works of Shakespeare you
see.
Why should operas be different, you ask? Because operas consists of
both music and text (and in the case of Wagner, of very detailed stage
directions). You cannot change the one without having huge problems
with the other aspect of opera.
If you say, that you are bored by stretches of Tannhï¿œuser and that
there are many spectators like you, who are bored in the same way, who
am I to say that you are wrong? It is your opinion and it is your
taste. You are entitled to that opinion. But believe me, Bert, I am not
bored, not one single moment, by that opera, "and I venture to suggest
that for others too"! All versions are dear to me, even the combined
version Solti made for his recording.
I don't think of Tannhï¿œuser as Wagner's best opera, whatever version,
but it was a necessary step into developing the composer he finally
became. For me his best operas are, not necessary in that order,
Tristan, Die Meistersinger (complete version, please!) and Parsifal,
because they show intense human feelings.
Coming back to my initial opening of this contribution, I end with it,
"let's agree to disagree", we both have strong opinions, and they won't
match easily, but they are valid opinions!
Bert Coules wrote on 11-5-2013 as follows:
> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>
>> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it is
>> in the score... So, if a director puts a stop in the music on
>> a place where a stop is not written down, he is in fact changing what
>> the composer wrote. You just cannot do that... We already feel
>> uneasy when for practical reasons cuts are made in operas...
>
> Go easy with that "we", Herman. I've no particular qualms about cuts in
> operas, including those by Wagner, whether for practical or artistic reasons.
> The same goes for other changes, under the right circumstances. Something
> that makes an audience experience these works with new eyes and ears is not
> necessarily bad. Familiarity doesn't necessarily breed contempt but it can
> and does lead to complacency.
>
>> ...neither the theme of the opera, nor the story, nor the music are
>> boring...
>
> Again, I disagree. For me, and I venture to suggest for others too, there
> are stretches of Tannhï¿œuser, in both versions but the Paris one especially,
> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>
>> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it is
>> in the score... So, if a director puts a stop in the music on
>> a place where a stop is not written down, he is in fact changing what
>> the composer wrote. You just cannot do that... We already feel
>> uneasy when for practical reasons cuts are made in operas...
>
> Go easy with that "we", Herman. I've no particular qualms about cuts in
> operas, including those by Wagner, whether for practical or artistic reasons.
> The same goes for other changes, under the right circumstances. Something
> that makes an audience experience these works with new eyes and ears is not
> necessarily bad. Familiarity doesn't necessarily breed contempt but it can
> and does lead to complacency.
>
>> ...neither the theme of the opera, nor the story, nor the music are
>> boring...
>
> Again, I disagree. For me, and I venture to suggest for others too, there
> that stop the work dead in its tracks and aren't musically interesting enough
> to compensate for the dramatic lull. The same is true of most of the operas:
> the cuts in the first Sadler's Wells Mastersingers were, as you say, made
> because they had to be but they did no particular damage and at least one
> pro- Wagnerian critic remarked at the time that he considered them an
> improvement.
>
> Plays, even great classics, are commonly cut and reshaped and no-one reacts
> in horror. Why should operas be any different?
Shall we agree to disagree, Bert? As you write, "Go easy with that
> to compensate for the dramatic lull. The same is true of most of the operas:
> the cuts in the first Sadler's Wells Mastersingers were, as you say, made
> because they had to be but they did no particular damage and at least one
> pro- Wagnerian critic remarked at the time that he considered them an
> improvement.
>
> Plays, even great classics, are commonly cut and reshaped and no-one reacts
> in horror. Why should operas be any different?
"we", Herman", you do exactly the same, as I notice.
Lately, perhaps a few years ago, I saw on television a BBC adaptation
of Shakespeare's Macbeth. It was set in some unnamed middle European
country around 1938. Could be a fascist country, or a Nazi country,
even a Stalinist country, or even yet another, but unnamed dark
dictatorship. Did it bring something new for the play? No, it highly
disturbed Shakespeare's text.
The same sort of things happen in my little country. Shakespeare plays
are not put on stage in the original English version as almost nobody
would understand the 16th century English of Shakespeare, so they are
translated into Dutch, nowadays Dutch of course (no-one dares to make a
translation into 16th century Dutch, though with some cleverness that
could be done). Alterations are made, cuts are made, scenes are changed
and it just doesn't work. It are no longer the works of Shakespeare you
see.
Why should operas be different, you ask? Because operas consists of
both music and text (and in the case of Wagner, of very detailed stage
directions). You cannot change the one without having huge problems
with the other aspect of opera.
If you say, that you are bored by stretches of Tannhï¿œuser and that
there are many spectators like you, who are bored in the same way, who
am I to say that you are wrong? It is your opinion and it is your
taste. You are entitled to that opinion. But believe me, Bert, I am not
bored, not one single moment, by that opera, "and I venture to suggest
that for others too"! All versions are dear to me, even the combined
version Solti made for his recording.
I don't think of Tannhï¿œuser as Wagner's best opera, whatever version,
but it was a necessary step into developing the composer he finally
became. For me his best operas are, not necessary in that order,
Tristan, Die Meistersinger (complete version, please!) and Parsifal,
because they show intense human feelings.
Coming back to my initial opening of this contribution, I end with it,
"let's agree to disagree", we both have strong opinions, and they won't
match easily, but they are valid opinions!
Bert Coules
May 11, 2013, 6:13:00 AM5/11/13
to
Herman van der Woude wrote:
> Shall we agree to disagree, Bert?
By all means.
> Shall we agree to disagree, Bert?
> As you write, "Go easy with that "we", Herman", you do exactly the same,
> as I notice.
sense, so I'm pleased that you noticed.
> Alterations are made, cuts are made, scenes are changed and it just
> doesn't work. It are no longer the works of Shakespeare you see.
area, this: how far can a work be stretched (for want of a better term) and
still retain its essential identity? Tom Stoppard wrote a fifteen minute
version of Hamlet. Is it Shakespeare's original (whatever you believe that
to be, since there are several variant texts)? No, clearly not. But is it
Hamlet?
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 11:35:47 AM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/13 7:21 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
following:
> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>>
>>> Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to find
>>> a doctor the moment he left the audience...
>>
>> Herman, you've misunderstood what I said: I was talking about the general
>> idea of suddenly stopping the music: that's what I think could be a powerful
>> theatrical moment. I wasn't talking about the specifics of this particular
>> staging.
>>
>> Yes, this production does sound shocking. But how long is it is since
>> familiar, boring old Tannh�user provoked such an outcry? Not since the
> whatever version, "I owe the world another Tannh�user", he wrote in old
standpoint, I find "Tannh�user" among the least interesting of Wagner's
operas (which is still pretty interesting!). Except for the stirring music
of the entry of the guests, there is little in the second act that I enjoy
listening to.
Dick Partridge
following:
> Bert Coules schreef op 10-5-2013 het volgende:
> [NOM wrote on 10-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> Herman van der Woude wrote:
>>
>>> Well, Bert, it was so powerful, that one member of the audience had to find
>>> a doctor the moment he left the audience...
>>
>> Herman, you've misunderstood what I said: I was talking about the general
>> idea of suddenly stopping the music: that's what I think could be a powerful
>> theatrical moment. I wasn't talking about the specifics of this particular
>> staging.
>>
>> Yes, this production does sound shocking. But how long is it is since
>> premiere, perhaps?
>
> Hi Bert,
>
> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it
> is in the score. You won't find (long) stops in the score of
> Tannh�user, except of course, for the interfall between the acts. So,
>
> Hi Bert,
>
> Stopping of the music is in my very humble opinion only permitted if it
> is in the score. You won't find (long) stops in the score of
> if a director puts a stop in the music on a place where a stop is not
> written down, he is in fact changing what the composer wrote. You just
> cannot do that. We already feel uneasy when for practical reasons cuts
> are made in operas (Goodall in The Mastersingers, and he did it as the
> public had to be able to get the last tube in time!). And talking about
> powerful theatrical moments, I think Wagner - even the young Wagner who
> wrote Tannh�user - was very capable of thinking of that. Never a dull
> written down, he is in fact changing what the composer wrote. You just
> cannot do that. We already feel uneasy when for practical reasons cuts
> are made in operas (Goodall in The Mastersingers, and he did it as the
> public had to be able to get the last tube in time!). And talking about
> powerful theatrical moments, I think Wagner - even the young Wagner who
> moment with Wagner! That brings me to your second remark.
>
> We all do know that Wagner himself was not too pleased with Tannh�user,
>
> whatever version, "I owe the world another Tannh�user", he wrote in old
> age., But whatever you say, neither the theme of the opera, nor the
> story, nor the music are boring - even if it is staged traditionally.
> The opera, both score and libretto, offers enough inspiration to make
> it an exciting story, in which I don't need a history lesson or - as I
> saw it in Amsterdam - as a parody of the Eurovision Song Festival
> (including Elvis Presley imitations and showroom staircases).
I agree with everything you say, but I have to add that from a musical
> story, nor the music are boring - even if it is staged traditionally.
> The opera, both score and libretto, offers enough inspiration to make
> it an exciting story, in which I don't need a history lesson or - as I
> saw it in Amsterdam - as a parody of the Eurovision Song Festival
> (including Elvis Presley imitations and showroom staircases).
standpoint, I find "Tannh�user" among the least interesting of Wagner's
operas (which is still pretty interesting!). Except for the stirring music
of the entry of the guests, there is little in the second act that I enjoy
listening to.
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 11:37:40 AM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/13 7:39 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
following:
And think of John Cage! An entire sonata filled with nothing but silence!
How powerful was that?
Dick Partridge
following:
How powerful was that?
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 12:44:04 PM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/13 8:31 PM, Bert Coules, at ma...@bertcoules.co.uk, wrote the
following:
[snip]
> . . . the cuts in the first Sadler's Wells Mastersingers were, as you say,
> made because they had to be but they did no particular damage . . .
If you order a whisky-and-soda and instead of a gill of whisky the bartender
gives you four-fifths of a gill, does that do any particular damage?
Dick Partridge
following:
[snip]
> . . . the cuts in the first Sadler's Wells Mastersingers were, as you say,
> made because they had to be but they did no particular damage . . .
If you order a whisky-and-soda and instead of a gill of whisky the bartender
gives you four-fifths of a gill, does that do any particular damage?
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 11:57:35 AM5/11/13
to
On 5/11/13 6:13 AM, Bert Coules, at ma...@bertcoules.co.uk, wrote the
following:
[snip]
> Tom Stoppard wrote a fifteen minute
> version of Hamlet. Is it Shakespeare's original (whatever you believe that
> to be, since there are several variant texts)? No, clearly not. But is it
> Hamlet?
>
I think there is definitely a place for artistic variations on someone
else's work of art. I saw Moussorgsky's original "Boris Goudonof" at the
Met a couple of years ago and thought it was far inferior to the
Rimsky-Korsakov version. But I think it's important that such efforts be
accurately labeled.
So, No!, it is not "Hamlet." It is "Hamlet adapted by Stoppard," or
something like that.
Dick Partridge
following:
[snip]
> Tom Stoppard wrote a fifteen minute
> version of Hamlet. Is it Shakespeare's original (whatever you believe that
> to be, since there are several variant texts)? No, clearly not. But is it
> Hamlet?
>
else's work of art. I saw Moussorgsky's original "Boris Goudonof" at the
Met a couple of years ago and thought it was far inferior to the
Rimsky-Korsakov version. But I think it's important that such efforts be
accurately labeled.
So, No!, it is not "Hamlet." It is "Hamlet adapted by Stoppard," or
something like that.
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 12:47:22 PM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/13 4:42 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
following:
[snip]
> Did I mention that Wolfram von Eschenbach had to rape Elisabeth, who
> was dressed as a nun?
[snip]
That's an interesting idea and would be extremely powerful, I suspect.
Dick Partridge
following:
[snip]
> Did I mention that Wolfram von Eschenbach had to rape Elisabeth, who
> was dressed as a nun?
That's an interesting idea and would be extremely powerful, I suspect.
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 11, 2013, 12:47:11 PM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/13 5:55 PM, Bert Coules, at ma...@bertcoules.co.uk, wrote the
following:
[snip]
>
> premiere, perhaps?
>
Is that the way we test for artistic merit? Whether it provokes an outcry?
I wonder if Bach's boring old B Minor Mass ever provoked an outcry.
Dick Partridge
following:
[snip]
>
> Yes, this production does sound shocking. But how long is it is since
> familiar, boring old Tannh�user provoked such an outcry? Not since the
> premiere, perhaps?
>
Is that the way we test for artistic merit? Whether it provokes an outcry?
I wonder if Bach's boring old B Minor Mass ever provoked an outcry.
Dick Partridge
Bert Coules
May 11, 2013, 12:56:32 PM5/11/13
to
Richard Partridge wrote:
> If you order a whisky-and-soda and instead of a gill of whisky the
> bartender
> gives you four-fifths of a gill, does that do any particular damage?
Well, it's arguable that it does *less* damage than the full measure,
> If you order a whisky-and-soda and instead of a gill of whisky the
> bartender
> gives you four-fifths of a gill, does that do any particular damage?
alcohol being the poison that it is...
Bert Coules
May 11, 2013, 12:59:49 PM5/11/13
to
Richard Partridge wrote:
> So, No!, it is not "Hamlet." It is "Hamlet adapted by Stoppard," or
> something like that.
Which is pretty much how it was billed, as I recall. But I would still
> So, No!, it is not "Hamlet." It is "Hamlet adapted by Stoppard," or
> something like that.
argue that in a way it *is* still Hamlet (though definitely not
Shakespeare's, as you say): there's a certain hard-to-pin down Hamletness,
an essential quality, which is still there.
And by that token, according to many, the Tannh�user under discussion
(though using the full "text") *isn't* Tannh�user because that central
essence is missing.
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 11, 2013, 1:26:07 PM5/11/13
to
Richard Partridge schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
Poor Wolfram, every night?
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 11, 2013, 3:02:31 PM5/11/13
to
Bert Coules schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
Which brings us back to the damage of a *full* Wagner? Wagner is also
poisonous, or at least addictive...
poisonous, or at least addictive...
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
May 11, 2013, 3:04:09 PM5/11/13
to
Richard Partridge schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
Indeed! Boring! But original! lol
Richard Partridge
May 12, 2013, 1:50:13 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/11/13 1:26 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
position.
Dick Partridge
following:
> Richard Partridge schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
> Richard Partridge wrote on 11-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> On 5/10/13 4:42 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
>> following:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Did I mention that Wolfram von Eschenbach had to rape Elisabeth, who
>>> was dressed as a nun?
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> That's an interesting idea and would be extremely powerful, I suspect.
>>
>>
>> Dick Partridge
>
> Poor Wolfram, every night?
Well, he could simulate it. Though it might be hard to sing in that
> Richard Partridge schreef op 11-5-2013 het volgende:
> Richard Partridge wrote on 11-5-2013 as follows:
>
>> On 5/10/13 4:42 PM, Herman van der Woude, at hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl, wrote the
>> following:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Did I mention that Wolfram von Eschenbach had to rape Elisabeth, who
>>> was dressed as a nun?
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> That's an interesting idea and would be extremely powerful, I suspect.
>>
>>
>> Dick Partridge
>
> Poor Wolfram, every night?
position.
Dick Partridge
Richard Partridge
May 12, 2013, 2:27:11 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/11/13 12:59 PM, Bert Coules, at ma...@bertcoules.co.uk, wrote the
following:
[snip]
> But I would still
> argue that in a way it *is* still Hamlet (though definitely not
> Shakespeare's, as you say): there's a certain hard-to-pin down Hamletness,
> an essential quality, which is still there.
>
[snip]
In the "Variations on a Theme of Paganini" by Brahms, Paganini's original
creation is definitely discernible. But we should be clear that Brahms is
the author of the new work.
Dick Partridge
following:
[snip]
> But I would still
> argue that in a way it *is* still Hamlet (though definitely not
> Shakespeare's, as you say): there's a certain hard-to-pin down Hamletness,
> an essential quality, which is still there.
>
In the "Variations on a Theme of Paganini" by Brahms, Paganini's original
creation is definitely discernible. But we should be clear that Brahms is
the author of the new work.
Dick Partridge
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