Wagner in a Sitcom
Praetorius
contemporary culture:
I recently watched an episode of HBO's "Curb Your Enthusiasm" that I'd
not seen before. And since this was an episode that was built around
Wagner, I thought it worth a mention.
Explaining Larry David and "Curb Your Enthusiasm" isn't easy. It's a
show that is pretty much ad-libbed. Since it's on HBO there is little
in the way of restrictions. In one episode this season, Larry, who is
Jewish with a Gentile wife, brings home a Jewish sex offender for the
Seder dinner. It's not a show for the easily offended.
In this Wagner episode, Larry and his wife are attending a premiere of
a friend's film. In the lobby of the theater, Larry begins humming
"Siegfried Idyll" to his wife. Since her birthday is upcoming, he
explains to her how Wagner performed the music on the morning of
Cosima's birthday (the fact that it was Christmas is omitted). 'How
romantic,' she exclaims. Larry resumes humming the "Siegfried Idyll"
and is rudely interrupted by another Jewish man screaming "Are you a
Jew?" at him. The man brings up Hitler and the inmates of Auschwitz
being marched off to gas chambers to "Meistersinger". He calls Larry a
"bad Jew!" (sort of like, 'bad dog') for liking Wagner.
Soon, Larry gets his house toilet papered because he refuses to give
this guy's obnoxious daughter candy for Halloween.
For Larry's wife's birthday, he hires a string quintet to play
"Siegfried Idyll" in the foyer of their house. His wife comes out of
the bedroom Cosima-like and is enraptured by Larry's romantic gift.
Except that his best friend soon arrives and Larry and his wife get
into an argument--during the music--over whether Larry can go out and
play golf.
At the end, he gets even with the Jewish guy by bringing a small band
onto the guy's lawn at 4 AM and playing the "Meistersinger" prelude.
Derrick Everett
> Larry resumes humming the "Siegfried Idyll" and is rudely interrupted
> by another Jewish man screaming "Are you a Jew?" at him. The man
> brings up Hitler and the inmates of Auschwitz being marched off to
> gas chambers to "Meistersinger". He calls Larry a "bad Jew!" (sort of
> like, 'bad dog') for liking Wagner.
>
>
The urban legend again (yawn). In fact, there is no evidence that the
camp orchestra at Auschwitz played Wagner, or even that they were asked to
do so, or that they could have done so if they had been asked. The story
is a malicious fiction. To put it bluntly: a lie, and one that I am tired
of hearing.
To those who are about to send me hate mail: to deny the urban legend
about Wagner's music in the camps is not "holocaust denial". Just for
the record, not only do I believe that there were gas chambers at
Auschwitz, but I sincerely believe that the Allies should have marched the
surviving SS men into those gas chambers and given them a taste of their
own medicine.
Lies are lies. Regardless of whether they come from David Irving (is he
still in an Austrian jail?) or Joey Goebbels or any other lying shit.
Just my 2 cents.
--
Derrick Everett
====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°37'E =======
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/wagnerfaq.htm
Richard Loeb
news:pan.2006.02.07...@yahoo.com...
Absolutely right - this lunacy about Wagner and the Nazis will never end I
fear esp. when you trying to reason with brick walls. Richard
Moloch
Richard Loeb
news:1139345868.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> At least this sitcom handles it with a good dose of irony :-)
>
Yes it made the irate customer at the movie theatre look like a fool - he
was. Richard
Richard Partridge
following:
[snip]
> The urban legend again (yawn). In fact, there is no evidence that the
> camp orchestra at Auschwitz played Wagner, or even that they were asked to
> do so, or that they could have done so if they had been asked. The story
> is a malicious fiction. To put it bluntly: a lie, and one that I am tired
> of hearing.
>
[snip]
Was there really an orchestra at Auschwitz? That doesn't fit with my idea
of what I thought the place was like.
Dick Partridge
Ralph
surprise it's not the Germans, who through the Nazification of Bayreuth,
and the publication of the Bayreuther Blatter etc, gave rise to the so
called Wagner-Nazi connection. This tired old horse needs a rest. I say
"yawn" on the subject of Jews who wouldn't listen to Wagner. (anyway the
number there is way overstated, I believe). One could discuss the
German's prime culpability in creating that connection, but that would
require a measure of subtlety and historical understanding, when it's so
much easier and convenient to focus on someone hyperventilating in a
movie theatre.
Ralph
Praetorius
And it is a comedy that takes some getting used to. In one episode,
Larry takes his elderly father, a survivor from Auschwitz, to a dinner
to meet another survivor...except it turned out that this "survivor"
came from the TV show "Survivor"; and an argument ensues about who had
it worse: the people on the island or the people at Auschwitz.
I'm not sure most viewers appreciated the Wagnerian references in this
episode. The "Siegfried Idyll" story is very nice, but largely unknown
outside the Wagnerian world. This may be the first time I've heard
mention of it anywhere else. It's also unlikely that many recognized
the "Meistersinger" prelude, or it's complete (even if fabricated)
significance.
I've been aware that the "Meistersinger" prelude (is it a prelude or an
overture? Is there a definable difference between the two?) may not
have been played at Auschwitz. I've understood that it was mostly
operetta and the like. But, no one ever is derogatory about Franz
Lehar and a Nazi connection.
Interestingly, that while Woody Allen has used Wagner/Jewish jokes
("...the urge to invade Poland" in one film; in another, he complains
about a friend being anti-semitic because when they go into a record
store, the friend always points out to Woody where the Wagner is sold),
I don't recall any Mel Brooks' Wagnerian slurs (and I may be wrong
about this. If I am, please correct!). Considering "The Producers",
one would think...
Ralph
> As I said, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" isn't a show for the easily offended.
snip
Easily offended? Moi? Did you take offense at what I said? Maybe not,
you seemed to have missed my point entirely and just replayed the same
shtick.
Ralph
Derrick Everett
Yes -- about a year ago I saw a televised interview with some of the
surviving players. From what I remember, most of the requests they got
were to play Beethoven and Schubert.
Praetorius
> Easily offended? Moi? Did you take offense at what I said? Maybe not,
> you seemed to have missed my point entirely and just replayed the same
> shtick.
Oh no. I'm not at all offended. I have no quarrel with what you say.
In fact, to perhaps add to what you said: I've read that during WW1,
everything German was verboten. Sauerkraut became Liberty Salad; no
Wagner, Strauss (and, I believe, no Beethoven) at the Met. But, during
WW2, there was no such ban. In fact, Met patrons were primarily
fretting over who would sing Flagstad's Wagnerian roles. Had Wagner
been notoriously well-known as "Hitler's Favorite Composer"... I mean,
in this day and age if someone were to present a program of "al-Qaeda's
favorite music", what kind of reaction would there be? If, when bin
Laden is finally captured, a pile of Tony Bennett CDs were to be found
in his cave, would Bennett be accused then of fomenting the 9/11
attacks? Which leads me to believe that a lot of Wagner's odious
reputation as Hitler's favorite and great influence was built after the
war, and probably not built on a strong terra firma of fact. (Look at
Billy Wilder's similarly related attacks on Flagstad after the war when
she returned to America)
But yet, what should I do? Turn off the program to protest a twisting
of the facts? Call up my friends and tell them the "true" story? Or,
just laugh? (I did the latter) Indeed, the portrayal of the Jewish man
in the theater foyer was far from flattering (as was the later
portrayal of the man's daughter). But, I'm also aware that this man
represented the way some react to Wagner (a bit like this current flap
over the Danish cartoons). And I don't think, in that respect, there
is anything "wrong" with such a portrayal. And since the portrayal in
this case was unflattering, what more could we ask for?
But, I think we need to be honest about something else here. The
Hitler-Wagner connection (however you want to call it) definitely
increases Wagner's stature with the average person. (it makes him more
"sexy")
Wagner=opera composer Reaction: Bleh!
Wagner=Hitler's favorite composer Reaction: Here is something that
could interest me.
I, myself, discovered Wagner at 13 (in 1962) thru a Hitler reference
(in William Holden's "The Counterfeit Traitor", "Ride of the Valkyries"
is played before a speech by Hitler and I wanted to know who wrote that
music.)
And it can even be argued that the reason there is a specifically
"Wagner BB" such as this results from Wagner's great notoriety--some of
which can be attributed, however wrongly or unfairly, to Hitler.
While, on a personal level, I long ago resolved whatever problems might
have arisen from the "Hitler's favorite" label ("SOME say that," is
usually my first response), I can't say it "frosts" me when I hear that
same label applied.
Ralph
I have no quarrel with what you say.
> In fact, to perhaps add to what you said: I've read that during WW1,
> everything German was verboten. Sauerkraut became Liberty Salad; no
> Wagner, Strauss (and, I believe, no Beethoven) at the Met. But, during
> WW2, there was no such ban. In fact, Met patrons were primarily
> fretting over who would sing Flagstad's Wagnerian roles. Had Wagner
> been notoriously well-known as "Hitler's Favorite Composer"...
Yes, there is a great tradition of Wagner being played outside Germany
during the Nazi era. Many singers refused to play there. However from
the early 1920's, when the Nazi Party was still a minor blip in Weimar
Germany, Bayreuth was already festooned with the Swastika, and continued
that way until 1945. So for almost 25 years the voice coming out of
Germany was the Wagner-Nazi connection, through speeches and writings
etc. This connection that was made there was greeted with silence as far
as I can tell. No newsgroups were around then to start a discussion
around this absurdity. No magazine articles or books speaking out
against this. 1945 arrives, and when the memory of that era is fresh
among some victims, some shied away from listening to Wagner. A little
too late for them, the debunking of the Wagner-Nazi connection (which of
course I agree with) begins. Now many of the debunker's are people of
goodwill who have compassion towards the victims, and at the same time
want rectify an historic injustice done to Wagner's art. There are
others who keep on dredging this up, for an entire other agenda. I have
only met one person in my life who wouldn't listen to Wagner, and he was
no great fan of classical music. Even among relatives of victims, I have
only heard variations of, you have to separate the man from his art. In
contrast to this, there is innumerable cries of protest (mainly on
Usenet) against people who make the Wagner-Nazi connection (the post
1945 version). My response is, really, you doth protest too much.
Ralph
REP
news:1139450419.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> As I said, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" isn't a show for the easily offended.
>
> And it is a comedy that takes some getting used to. In one episode,
> Larry takes his elderly father, a survivor from Auschwitz, to a dinner
> to meet another survivor...except it turned out that this "survivor"
> came from the TV show "Survivor"; and an argument ensues about who had
> it worse: the people on the island or the people at Auschwitz.
That sounds pretty funny, as does the Wagner episode, which I appreciate you
re-telling. Whether the Jewish character was well-informed or not isn't all
that important, since he obviously was not meant to be taken as a voice of
reason (no Gurnemanz, basically). The show, from what I know, is meant to
feature morally faulted, eccentric characters and their strange neuroses.
> I've been aware that the "Meistersinger" prelude (is it a prelude or an
> overture? Is there a definable difference between the two?)
It is a prelude. I believe overtures, by Wagner's time, treated all the
relevant leitmotives and encapsulated the entire drama in music (as in Der
Freischutz's overture, which covers the main themes and arias). This
prepares the listener for the opera as a whole. A prelude, meanwhile,
usually flows into the action and prepares the listener for what they are
about to immediately see, or it represents what happened just prior to the
opening of the curtain: the stormy prelude to Die Walkure or the wandering
Parsifal Act 3 prelude are good examples.
A lot of Wagner's first act preludes outside of the Ring blended the two
forms, but were, to my knowledge, always referred to as preludes. Die
Meistersinger might have had an overture if Wagner had come up with Hans
Sachs's character before composing it, and if it had featured the Prize
Song; and if it had an end. The Parsifal prelude is pretty comprehensive
too, but lacks the Flower Maidens, who would be an important part of any
traditional overture.
That's my understanding of it, anyway.
REP
Ralph
>>As I said, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" isn't a show for the easily
offended.
>> And it is a comedy that takes some getting used to. In one episode,
>> Larry takes his elderly father, a survivor from Auschwitz, to a dinner
>> to meet another survivor...except it turned out that this "survivor"
>> came from the TV show "Survivor"; and an argument ensues about who had
>> it worse: the people on the island or the people at Auschwitz.
>
> That sounds pretty funny, as does the Wagner episode, which I appreciate you
> re-telling.
Well, if you find Holocaust humor "pretty funny", that's your measure of
entertainment. There are three other issues at hand though. Suppose
someone is starting to get interested in listening to Wagner and wants
to learn more about him, but that person is a bit cautious because he or
she heard something vaguely about Wagner and Nazis and is not quite
comfortable about it. That person finds out about this newsgroup, logs
on, and reads how people are amusing themselves with Holocaust humor,
that they heard somewhere. Their worst fears would be confirmed about
Wagner and Wagnerians. In this case I wouldn't blame them. The second
issue is using Larry David's (sophomoric) routines, as a license with
which to repeat that material to others. It is one thing (for a White
person) to watch a film of Richard Pryor doing his comedy act using the
"N" word to refer to Blacks, and quite another to go out in public, and
repeat that material by using the N word. The third issue is the concept
of getting "easily offended". Just about all of us has some things that
we get "easily offended" by, when certain buttons are pushed. Airily
declaring oneself above that is not being honest with yourself. What is
really meant by that term is "I don't get easily offended by such and
such, basically because I don't have a stake in such and such through
any personal history".
But you have a stake in something, and you have buttons that can be
pushed.....rather easily.
REP
news:bb7Hf.16894$vU2....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> REP wrote:
>
> >>As I said, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" isn't a show for the easily
> offended.
>
> >> And it is a comedy that takes some getting used to. In one episode,
> >> Larry takes his elderly father, a survivor from Auschwitz, to a dinner
> >> to meet another survivor...except it turned out that this "survivor"
> >> came from the TV show "Survivor"; and an argument ensues about who had
> >> it worse: the people on the island or the people at Auschwitz.
> >
> > That sounds pretty funny, as does the Wagner episode, which I appreciate
you
> > re-telling.
>
> Well, if you find Holocaust humor "pretty funny", that's your measure of
> entertainment. There are three other issues at hand though. Suppose
> someone is starting to get interested in listening to Wagner and wants
> to learn more about him, but that person is a bit cautious because he or
> she heard something vaguely about Wagner and Nazis and is not quite
> comfortable about it. That person finds out about this newsgroup, logs
> on, and reads how people are amusing themselves with Holocaust humor,
> that they heard somewhere. Their worst fears would be confirmed about
> Wagner and Wagnerians.
I am a Wagnerian, and I found Praetorius's synopsis funny. I don't have a
responsibility to not confirm peoples' suspicions about Wagnerians, or
anything for that matter, if doing so would mean being untruthful about
myself. If I do fit peoples' negative perception of Wagnerians, then that's
a lot better than fitting their stereotype and being a liar at the same
time.
> The third issue is the concept
> of getting "easily offended". Just about all of us has some things that
> we get "easily offended" by, when certain buttons are pushed. Airily
> declaring oneself above that is not being honest with yourself. What is
> really meant by that term is "I don't get easily offended by such and
> such, basically because I don't have a stake in such and such through
> any personal history".
This obviously isn't directed at me, since I don't, and didn't, blame people
for being offended. In any case, what Praetorius meant by the show not being
"for the easily offended" was that the show was "offensive."
REP