Re: Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth
Tom Veal
ever posted on HLAS. Since we know that it rests entirely on the
author's Ego Dixi, I trust that no disputatious souls will interrupt
the free flow of fancy. I certainly shall not.
gangleri wrote:
> Prologue
>
> Now that the defenders of Stratfordian Orthodoxy have been exposed for
> what they are and what they are not, it occurred to me this morning
> that the time had come to move on to the next phase in what, for me,
> has been a thirty-year effort to clear my own mind of nonsense and
> stuff.
>
> I recognize, of course, that the very concept of gematria as a means of
> conveying the essence of the world-view of the ancients across
> millennia must strike modern minds as lunacy. But, at one time, the
> same was true of the notion that Earth was not the center of the
> Universe.
>
> The magical powers of modern technology make it appear that our
> scientific savants are smarter than those who laid the foundations of
> western civilization over the past few millennia. Yet, it is still the
> case that we cannot possibly know what we don't know.
>
> A point addressed by Hamlet in response to Horatio's exclamation:
> "O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!" To which the
> Prince replied: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There
> are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in
> your philosophy."
>
> With that, I apologize for the sharp language of some of my earlier
> messages - their object was not the individuals addressed but such
> aspects of their modus operandi which, in my view, were not conducive
> to clarification and eventual resolution of that greatest of all great
> mysteries:
>
> The Shakesepeare Puzzle.
>
> ****
>
> The Platonic Aspect
>
> According to the late Saga scholar Einar Pálsson (d. 1996), the title
> character of the 13th century Icelandic Saga masterpiece
> 'Brennu-Njálssaga' ('Saga of Burnt Njáll') personified
> Pythagorean Monad. As such, Njáll is introduced as a Heathen, who
> converts to Christianity on its enactment by the Icelandic Althing
> (Parliament) as law of the land in the year 1000 A.D.
>
> In the saga, Njáll's heathen aspects are reflected in the
> personification of the Platonic solids and time - Air, Water, Earth,
> Fire, Time or, in Icelandic Loft-Vatn-Jörð-Eldr-Tími, 11110 - as
> three sons of Njáll, plus his son-in-law (Time) and Evil (Earth)
> personified as Grímr-Helgi-Mörðr-Skarpheðinn-Kári, 14943, with a
> Platonic Great Year of 25920 calendar years rounding out the
> pre-Christian mythical background against which the saga unfolds in
> time.
>
> The imagery concerns Microcosmic MAN-Beast as Creation in Time and
> Space, with an island off Iceland's south coast, Þrídrangr, 5003,
> ('Triple Rock') symbolizing the locus of the world´s creation
> aligned with three landmarks, whose location mirrors Triangle 3:4:5 -
> Bergþórshváll, 7196, Miðeyjarhólmr, 6067, and Helgafell, 3027, as
> in 5003 + 7196 + 6067 + 3027 = 21293.
>
> Einar Pálsson, who wrote a book in English ('The Sacred Triangle of
> Pagan Iceland', 1993) on the multi-faceted symbolism associated with
> Triangle 3:4:5 in the context, summarized therein the idea behind its
> identification with Microcosmic MAN-Beast as Creation in Time and Space
> ('The Cosmos of Rangárhverfi') as follows:
>
> "The triangle 3:4:5 was a part thereof. Icelandic symbolism
> indicates that this Cosmos was an earthly sanctuary (216,000 feet in
> diameter) devoted to the gods and representing a projection on the
> ground of the sacred area of the heavens." (p. 20)
>
> The associated myth concerned Microcosmic MAN-Beast's 'race through
> life', as symbolized in ancient Greece by the Heraean Games - now
> known as the Olympic Games. In the context of Saga Myth, the object of
> the 'race through life' was for MAN-Beast to 'shuffle off' its
> 'mortal coil' alias the fetters of Time and Space or Tími, 2315,
> and Rúm, 2312, with a World Age held to be concluded at the end of a
> Platonic Great Year, as in 25920 - 2315 - 2312 = 21293.
>
> In Shakespeare Myth, Saga Monad, 1, and its association with the
> Platonic solids and time in the context of a Platonic Great Year, as in
> 1 11110 + 14943 + 25920 = 51974, were mirrored in 'Sir Francis Bacon,
> Knight', 10594, as Saga Triangle 3:4:5 alias Microcosmic MAN-Beast
> become Microcosmic Son of Man upon 'shuffling off' his 'mortal
> coil' of Time and Space, 21293.
>
> In the Middle Ages, a line from Virgil's Fourth Eclogue, "magnus ab
> integro saeclorum nascitur ordo", 20087 (Voici Qui Recommence Le
> Grand Ordre Des Siècles/The mighty March of Time resumes from nil/The
> great succession of centuries is born afresh.) was construed as
> prophesying the Coming of Christ.
>
> Thus was the unitary vision of the Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Authors
> 'documented' through 'hidden poetry' on the grand themes of
> Pagan/Christian Creation Myth to be brought to light in due course
> through application of the Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key which the
> Icelandic sage and literary master Snorri Sturluson placed on record
> some 750 years ago, embedded in a single sentence in the oldest extant
> Icelandic skin manuscript.
>
> Where I discovered and extracted it thirty years ago, as in 10594 +
> 21293 + 20087 = 51974.
>
>
> The Augustan Reference Texts
>
> Two Augustan texts - the Alpha lines of Virgil's Fourth Eclogue,
> Cipher Value 329540, and the Omega lines of Ovid's Metamorphoses,
> Cipher Value 181408) - provided a benchmark Cipher Value (329540 +
> 181408 = 510948) for salient 'hidden poetry' aspects of the
> Shakespeare Opus.
>
> The two Augustan texts plus translations thereof are as follows.
>
> Virgil - Alpha:
> Sicelides Musae, paulo maiora canamus!
> non omnis arbusta iuvant humilesque myricae;
> si canimus silvas, silvae sint consule dignae.
> Ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas;
> magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo.
> iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna,
> iam nova progenies caelo demittitur alto.
> tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
> desinet ac toto surget gens aurea mundo,
> casta fave Lucina: tuus iam regnat Apollo.
> teque adeo decus hoc aevi te consule, inibit,
> Pollio, et incipient magni procedere menses;
> te duce, si qua manent sceleris vestigia nostri,
> inrita perpetua solvent formidine terras.
> ille deum vitam accipiet divisque videbit
> permixtos heroas et ipse videbitur illis,
> pacatumque reget patriis virtutibus orbem.*
>
> ****
> * Now the last age of Cumae's prophecy has come; The great succession
> of centuries is born afresh. Now too returns the Virgin, Saturn's rule
> returns; A new begetting now descends from heaven's height. O chaste
> Lucina, look with blessing on the boy Whose birth will end the iron
> race at last and raise A golden through the world: now your Apollo
> rules. And, Pollio, this glory enters time with you; Your consulship
> begins the march of the great months; With you to guide, if traces of
> our sin remain, They, nullified, will free the lands from lasting fear.
> He will receive the life divine, and see the gods Mingling with heroes,
> and himself be seen of them, And rule a world made peaceful by his
> father's virtues.
> ****
>
> Ovid - Omega:
> Iamque opus exegi, quod nec Iovis ira nec ignis
> nec poterit ferrum nec edax abolere vetustas.
> Cum volet, illa dies, quae nil nisi corporis huius
> ius habet, incerti spatium mihi finiat aevi:
> parte tamen meliore mei super alta perennis
> astra ferar, nomenque erit indelebile nostrum,
> quaque patet domitis Romana potentia terris,
> ore legar populi, perque omnia saecula fama,
> si quid habent veri vatum praesagia, vivam.*
>
> ****
> * And now the measure of my song is done: The work has reached its
> end; the book is mine, None shall unwrite these words: nor angry Jove,
> Nor war, nor fire, nor flood, Nor venomous time that eats our lives
> away. Then let that morning come, as come it will, When this disguise
> I carry shall be no more, And all the treacherous years of life undone,
> And yet my name shall rise to heavenly music, The deathless music of
> the circling stars. As long as Rome is the Eternal City These lines
> shall echo from the lips of men, As long as poetry speaks truth on
> earth, That immortality is mine to wear.
> ****
>
> The Boy - King of the Jews
>
> In the King James Bible, "the boy whose birth will end the iron race
> at last" and who "will receive the life divine", alias The
> Crucified King of the Jews, is identified in Matt. 27:37, Mark 15:26,
> Luke 23:38, and John 19:19 as follows: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE
> JEWS, Cipher Value 16549, THE KING OF THE JEWS, 9214, THIS IS THE KING
> OF THE JEWS, 13155, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS, 17710 as in
> 16549 + 9214 + 13155 + 17710 = 56628.
>
> The Boy is the Once and Future King of Arthurian Myth alias Cosmic
> Creative Power, which in Saga Myth is at once Creator of, and one with,
> Microcosmic MAN-Beast alias Creation in Time and Space. The Boy is
> Crucified Light of the World, 1000, whose mission is to "free the
> lands from lasting fear [...] And rule a world made peaceful by his
> father's virtues" at the end of a World Age which Hindu and Icelandic
> Myth identify with the number 432,000.*
>
> ****
> * One explanation that has been proposed to account for the appearance
> of homologous structures and often even identical motifs in the myths
> and rites of widely separate cultures is psychological: namely, to cite
> a formula of James G. Frazer in The Golden Bough, that such occurrences
> are most likely "the effect of similar causes acting alike on the
> similar constitution of the human mind in different countries and under
> different skies."
>
> There are, however, instances that cannot be accounted for in this way,
> and they suggest the need for another interpretation: for example, in
> India the number of years assigned to an eon is 4,320,000; whereas in
> the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is declared that in Othin's warrior
> hall, Valhall, there are 540 doors, through each of which, on the
> "day of the war of the wolf", 800 battle-ready warriors will pass
> to engage the antigods in combat. But 540 times 800 equals 432,000!
> Moreover, a Chaldean priest, Berossos, writing in Greek ca. 289 B.C.,
> reported that according to Mesopotamian belief 432,000 years elapsed
> between the crowning of the first earthly king and the coming of the
> deluge. No one, I should think, would wish to argue that these figures
> could have arisen independently in India, Iceland, and Babylon. (Joseph
> Campbell, The Mythic Image, Bollingen Paperbacks, Princeton University
> Press, 1973, p. 72)
> ****
>
> The Man - Will I Am! Shake Speare!
>
> Creation in Time and Space is generated by Monad/Cosmic Creative
> Power's division into Male and Female aspects - Penis, 2801, and
> Vagina, 2414 - whose World-Ending re-union on Mons Veneris, 6783,
> "is a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd" (Prince Hamlet in Act
> III, Sc. i).*
>
> In Shakespeare Myth, The Boy - Robin Hood's Little John - is
> transformed into 'Man' (which stands for the concepts of
> 'hand', 'beam', and 'penis' in Saga Myth, according to
> Einar Pálsson) - on Cosmic Creative Power's command, Will I Am!
> Shake Speare!, 9322.
>
> As in 56628 + 1000 + 432000 + 9322 + 2801 + 2414 + 6783 = 510948,
> closing a two-thousand year circle of 'hidden'
> Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare 'poetry'.
>
> ****
> * This is meant to be only an essay. It is a first reconnaissance of a
> realm well-nigh unexplored and uncharted. From whichever way one
> enters it, one is caught in the same bewildering circular complexity,
> as in a labyrinth, for it has no deductive order in the abstract sense,
> but instead resembles an organism tightly closed in itself, or even
> better, a monumental "Art of the Fugue."
>
> The figure of Hamlet as a favorable starting point came by chance.
> Many other avenues offered themselves, rich in strange symbols and
> beckoning with great images, but the choice went to Hamlet because he
> led the mind on a truly inductive quest through a familiar landscape -
> and one which has the merit of its literary setting. Here is a
> character deeply present to our awareness, in whom ambiguities and
> uncertainties, tormented self-questioning and dispassionate insight
> give a presentiment of the modern mind. His personal drama was that he
> had to be a hero, but still try to avoid the role Destiny assigned him.
> His lucid intellect remained above the conflict of motives - in other
> words, his was and is a truly contemporary consciousness. And yet this
> character whom the poet made one of us, the first unhappy intellectual,
> concealed a past as a legendary being, his features predetermined,
> preshaped by long-standing myth. There was a numinous aura around him,
> and many clues led up to him. But it was a surprise to find behind the
> mask an ancient and all-embracing cosmic power - the original master of
> the dreamed-of first age of the world.
>
> Yet in all his guises he remained strangely himself. The original
> Amlóði, as his name was in Icelandic legend, shows the same
> characteristics of melancholy and high intellect. He, too, is a son
> dedicated to avenge his father, a speaker of cryptic but inescapable
> truths, an elusive carrier of Fate who must yield once his mission is
> accomplished and sink once more into concealment in the depths of time
> to which he belongs: Lord of the Golden Age, the Once and Future King.
>
> This essay will follow the figure farther and farther afield, from the
> Northland to Rome, from there to Finland, Iran, and India; he will
> appear again unmistakably in Polynesian legend. Many other Dominions
> and Powers will materialize to frame him within the proper order.
>
> Amlóði was identified, in the crude and vivid imagery of the Norse,
> by the ownership of a fabled mill which, in his own time, ground out
> peace and plenty. Later, in decaying times, it ground out salt; and
> now finally, having landed at the bottom of the sea, it is grinding
> rock and sand, creating a vast whirlpool, the Maelstrom (i.e. the
> grinding stream, from the [Icelandic] verb mala, "to grind"), which is
> supposed to be a way to the land of the dead. This imagery stands, as
> the evidence develops, for an astronomical process, the secular
> shifting of the sun through the signs of the zodiac which determines
> world-ages, each numbering thousands of years. Each age brings a World
> Era, a Twilight of the Gods. Great structures collapse; pillars topple
> which supported the great fabric; floods and cataclysms herald the
> shaping of a new world. (Giorgio de Santillana, Hamlet's Mill - An
> Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time, 1969; Second Paperback Edition,
> David R. Godine, Publisher, Boston, 1983, pp. 1-2.)
>
> ****
> The Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key and Calculator are posted on the
> Internet at http://www.light-of-truth.com/gunnartomasson/ciphers.htm
Andy68
I'm sure you believe all of this, and I'm not going to debate you (yes,
it's a hit and run post), but I've just got to say it. This makes no
sense at all. It really, really doesn't. Read your own post - it's
nonsensical. It has no meaning.
gangleri wrote:
> In the saga, Njáll's heathen aspects are reflected in the
> personification of the Platonic solids and time - Air, Water, Earth,
> Fire, Time or, in Icelandic Loft-Vatn-Jörð-Eldr-Tími, 11110 - as
> three sons of Njáll, plus his son-in-law (Time) and Evil (Earth)
> personified as Grímr-Helgi-Mörðr-Skarpheðinn-Kári, 14943, with a
> Platonic Great Year of 25920 calendar years...
You just found several different things and added up their number
values (the number values themselves are pointless, but I'll leave that
for now). Why not add something from Aristotle or Sophocles and put
that into the equation? Your system has no basis, no meaning.
gangleri wrote:
> The imagery concerns Microcosmic MAN-Beast as Creation in Time and
> Space...
Says who? Where do you have an ancient document that discuss the
Microcosmic MAN-Beast? You pick some famous people and add up a few of
their sentences to get what you want. Where do ANY of these famous
people write about any of the things you claim they are writing about?
In which of Plato's, Shakespeare's, whoever's writings do they talk
about your cosmic MAN-Beast? gangleri, they don't.
gangleri wrote:
> The Augustan Reference Texts
>
> Two Augustan texts - the Alpha lines of Virgil's Fourth Eclogue,
> Cipher Value 329540, and the Omega lines of Ovid's Metamorphoses,
> Cipher Value 181408) - provided a benchmark Cipher Value (329540 +
> 181408 = 510948) for salient 'hidden poetry' aspects of the
> Shakespeare Opus.
That's truly priceless. You took two unrelated sections from two
different authors in order to come up with your magic number. Are you
genuinely unable to understand the pointlessness of that?
gangleri wrote:
> There are, however, instances that cannot be accounted for in this way,
> and they suggest the need for another interpretation: for example, in
> India the number of years assigned to an eon is 4,320,000; whereas in
> the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is declared that in Othin's warrior
> hall, Valhall, there are 540 doors, through each of which, on the
> "day of the war of the wolf", 800 battle-ready warriors will pass
> to engage the antigods in combat. But 540 times 800 equals 432,000!
> Moreover, a Chaldean priest, Berossos, writing in Greek ca. 289 B.C.,
> reported that according to Mesopotamian belief 432,000 years elapsed
> between the crowning of the first earthly king and the coming of the
> deluge. No one, I should think, would wish to argue that these figures
> could have arisen independently in India, Iceland, and Babylon. (Joseph
> Campbell, The Mythic Image, Bollingen Paperbacks, Princeton University
> Press, 1973, p. 72)
> ****
Yes, I, in fact, am going to argue that these number are independent.
4,320,000 is not the same number as 432,000. Yes, they have "432" in
them, but they aren't the same number.
Even more importantly, what does it matter? In India, an eon of
4,320,000. In Iceland, 540 doors and 800 warriors. In Meopotamia,
432,000 before the flood. These are unrelated. Especially the
Icelandic one, which has nothing to do with time.
gangleri wrote:
> In Shakespeare Myth, The Boy - Robin Hood's Little John - is
> transformed into 'Man' (which stands for the concepts of
> 'hand', 'beam', and 'penis' in Saga Myth, according to
> Einar Pálsson) - on Cosmic Creative Power's command, Will I Am!
> Shake Speare!, 9322.
Wait. Stop. Hold it. Part - an important part - of your argument is
the the Cosmic Creative Power's command is "Will I am" ? Is that like
Shazam?
Just a few thoughts. Take them or leave them.
Tom Veal
school debate tactic. As the Great Gangleri has said elsewhere, all
this is his *opinion*, so it doesn't need any stinking evidence - or
have to make sense.
gangleri
> In the saga, Njáll's heathen aspects are reflected in the
> personification of the Platonic solids and time - Air, Water, Earth,
> Fire, Time or, in Icelandic Loft-Vatn-Jörð-Eldr-Tími, 11110 - as
> three sons of Njáll, plus his son-in-law (Time) and Evil (Earth)
> personified as Grímr-Helgi-Mörðr-Skarpheðinn-Kári, 14943, with a
> Platonic Great Year of 25920 calendar years...
You just found several different things and added up their number
values (the number values themselves are pointless, but I'll leave that
for now). Why not add something from Aristotle or Sophocles and put
that into the equation? Your system has no basis, no meaning.
Comment:
The Platonic aspects of Saga Myth were placed on record by Einar
Pálsson, whose reasearch into related issues over five decades is
reported in eleven books in a series on 'The Roots of Icelandic
Culture'. According to Einar, they form the backbone of the
"Settlement Myth" of Iceland's 9th century settlers.
****
gangleri wrote:
> The imagery concerns Microcosmic MAN-Beast as Creation in Time and
> Space...
Says who?
Comment:
Einar Pálsson.
****
gangleri wrote:
> The Augustan Reference Texts
> Two Augustan texts - the Alpha lines of Virgil's Fourth Eclogue,
> Cipher Value 329540, and the Omega lines of Ovid's Metamorphoses,
> Cipher Value 181408) - provided a benchmark Cipher Value (329540 +
> 181408 = 510948) for salient 'hidden poetry' aspects of the
> Shakespeare Opus.
That's truly priceless. You took two unrelated sections from two
different authors in order to come up with your magic number. Are you
genuinely unable to understand the pointlessness of that?
Comment:
The essential continuity between PAGAN and CHRISTIAN mythical imagery
is a central thesis of Einar Pálsson - it represented the conceptual
framework within which learned individuals reflected on Creation both
before and after Christ.
****
Yes, I, in fact, am going to argue that these number are independent.
4,320,000 is not the same number as 432,000. Yes, they have "432" in
them, but they aren't the same number.
Even more importantly, what does it matter? In India, an eon of
4,320,000. In Iceland, 540 doors and 800 warriors. In Meopotamia,
432,000 before the flood. These are unrelated. Especially the
Icelandic one, which has nothing to do with time.
Comment:
Again, according to Einar Pálsson, numbers such as 432, 4320, and
432000 were all "the same number" to the ancients.
In the form 432000, the number defines a World Age such as the Kali
Yuga cycle of Hindu myth.
****
gangleri wrote:
> In Shakespeare Myth, The Boy - Robin Hood's Little John - is
> transformed into 'Man' (which stands for the concepts of
> 'hand', 'beam', and 'penis' in Saga Myth, according to
> Einar Pálsson) - on Cosmic Creative Power's command, Will I Am!
> Shake Speare!, 9322.
Wait. Stop. Hold it. Part - an important part - of your argument is
the the Cosmic Creative Power's command is "Will I am" ? Is that like
Shazam?
Comment:
The Will I Am! Shake Speare! aspect of Shakespeare Myth relates to
what Professor Jonathan Bate views as the key question in the
Shakespeare Opus - Who's there? in the opening line of Hamlet.
There is NO William Shakespeare - except at "the inmost part" of you,
me, Queen Gertrude, and Tom Veal.
As in Prince Hamlet's statement to Queen Gertrude in Act III, Sc. iv -
"Come, come, and sit you down; you shall not budge;
You go not, till I set you up a glass
Where you may see the inmost part of you."
Andy68
away, but I can't resist adding two more things:
gangleri wrote:
> The Platonic aspects of Saga Myth were placed on record by Einar
> Pálsson, whose reasearch into related issues over five decades is
> reported in eleven books in a series on 'The Roots of Icelandic
> Culture'. According to Einar, they form the backbone of the
> "Settlement Myth" of Iceland's 9th century settlers.
> Einar Pálsson.
gangleri wrote:
> The essential continuity between PAGAN and CHRISTIAN mythical imagery
> is a central thesis of Einar Pálsson - it represented the conceptual
> framework within which learned individuals reflected on Creation both
> before and after Christ.
gangleri wrote:
> Again, according to Einar Pálsson, numbers such as 432, 4320, and
> 432000 were all "the same number" to the ancients.
The fact that Einar Palsson, whomever that is, made up a lot of
nonsense isn't really a great defense of any of this. You're
responding by showing what Einar wrote - that is not the same thing as
proving your claim. I can go out and get a bunch of quotes from this
newsgroup by people saying gematria is meaningless...would you accept
that as "proof"?
gangleri wrote:
> The Will I Am! Shake Speare! aspect of Shakespeare Myth relates to
> what Professor Jonathan Bate views as the key question in the
> Shakespeare Opus - Who's there? in the opening line of Hamlet.
Once again, you take a line from one work and go out and find another
line from another work and act as if they are in consort. Why can't
the response to "Who's there?" be "Tis he, that villain Romeo"?
Tom Veal
of words in Mr. Pálsson's evidently voluminous writings that would
have the same "cipher value" as some set of words that you regarded as
significant to your "Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth" was 100 percent.
gangleri wrote:
> As noted in my original message on this thread, Einar had identified
> the island of Þrídrangr, 5003, off the south coast of Iceland as
> mythical locus of The World's Creation, with ' the world' denoting the
> Microcosm which Iceland's 9th century settlers had identified with
> Triangle 3:4:5, whose three corners were represented by 9th century
> landmarks known as Bergþórshváll, 7196, Miðeyjarhólmr, 6067, and
> Helgafell, 3027.
>
> For Iceland's 9th century settlers, according to Einar's hypothesis,
> 'the world' so defined represented Microcosmic Man as Creation in Time
> and Space - Icelandic Tími, 2315, and Rúm, 2312.
>
> This was Einar´s hypothesis.
>
> When I applied the Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key to this hypothesis, the
> outcome - 5003 + 7196 + 6067 + 3027 + 2315 + 2312 = 25920 - turned out
> to mirror the number which the ancient Sumerians had identified as the
> number of calendar years during which the precession of the equinoctial
> points described one complete circle around the Zodiac.
>
> A concept which would later become known as a Platonic Great Year and
> denoted by 25920.
>
> This is pretty much what got me started on this Cipher Key business -
> the probability of Einar's construction of the world-view of Iceland's
> 9th century settlers on what he held to be Pythagorean principles
> according with the concept of a Platonic Great Year through the
> application of the Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key being pure chance struck
> me as next to infinitesimally small.
>
> If Tom Veal is prepared to declare this pure chance, then I'll get back
> to him on a deal - pssst! Want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge?
gangleri
For here is how a Platonic Year of 25920 calendar years fits
hand-in-glove (as in "If ye glove fit, ye mustn't acquit.") with Monad,
1, become Light of the World, 1000, alias The King of the Jews, 56628,
Crucified for the duration of The Stratfordian's Houre Vpon The Stage,
35662, where the Stratfordian "enters" the Stage of The Globe as
Scialetheia, 4600, or 'A Shadow of Truth', and "exits" through 'death'
as Ego or "I" as in "Et in Arcadia Ego," 5497.
As in 25920 + 1 + 1000 + 56628 + 35662 + 4600 + 5497 = 129308.*
How so?
Let me count the ways:
1 = Monad;
1000 = Light of the World;
56628 = King of the Jews**;
35662 = Ideot's Houre Vpon The Stage***;
4600 = Scialetheia at Alpha; and
5407 = Et in Arcadia Ego at Omega.
* 129308 = STAY PASSENGER, WHY GOEST THOV BY SO FAST READ IF THOV CANST
WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST WITH IN THIS MONVMENT SHAKSPEARE: WITH
WHOME, QVICK NATVRE DIDE: WHOSE NAME, DOTH DECK YS TOMBE, FAR MORE,
THEN COST:
** 56628 = Matt. 27:37, Mark 15:26, Luke 23:38, and John 19:19 as
follows: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS, Cipher Value 16549, THE
KING OF THE JEWS, 9214, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS, 13155, JESUS OF
NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS, 17710 as in 16549 + 9214 + 13155 + 17710
= 56628.
*** 35662 = Gulielmus filius Johannes Shakspere, 17252, April 26, 1564,
The End, 100, Will Shakspere, gent, 10026, April 25, 1616 as in 17252 +
2602 + 1564 + 100 + 10026 + 2502 + 1616 = 35662.
In the Marlovian aspect of Shakespeare Myth, a certain Richard Baines,
5497, as in "Et in Arcadia Ego," 5497, turned State's Evidence against
his erstwhile brute/murderous Scialetheia self - but to no avail, as in
Give us Barrabas/O.J./Gulielmus!
Lest our illusions be shattered.
gangleri
5407 = Et in Arcadia Ego at Omega.
Read:
5497 = Et in Arcadia Ego at Omega.
gangleri
The concept of a "Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth" was entirely foreign
to me at the time.
I had been working on the Shakespeare aspect independent of the Cipher
Key along with aspects of Saga Myth which, to my mind, seemed to lie
close to the surface of the literary texts without any Cipher Key being
needed to point the way or underscore one's reading thereof.
It was a great enough shock to find oneself entertaining the notion of
'hidden poetry' enciphered in 13th century texts being brought to light
through something so wholly unexpected as a Cipher Key extracted from a
13th century text in the 1970s.
The initial cipher symbolic links to the Four Augustan Poets came much
later.
David L. Webb
"gangleri" <gunnar....@verizon.net> wrote:
Well, that clarifies everything!
gangleri
Tom Veal
to choose. It is unremarkable that you were able to "discover"
something in one that coincided with something in the other. What the
two sets were isn't important. You could just as easily have found
"significant" words in the Pálsson oeuvre with the same "cipher
values" as passages in Harry Potter.
gangleri
The probability that you would find some significant-in-your-eyes set
of words in Mr. Pálsson's evidently voluminous writings that would
have the same "cipher value" as some set of words that you regarded as
significant to your "Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth" was 100 percent.
Comment:
The "set of words" in question concerned the subject matter of the
first of sixty-four hypotheses set forth by Mr. Pálsson in the first
of his eleven books on 'Roots of Icelandic Culture', namely, they
mythical locus of the Creation of The World of Time and Space on an
island off the south coast of Iceland and The World's representation
by three landmarks which, when connected by an imaginary line, formed
Triangle 3:4:5.*
My application of the (then) newly discovered Cipher Key to the "set
of words" which define the CORE of Mr. Pálsson's thesis was an
'experimentum crucis' akin to the measurements which Eddington made
in 1919 whereby star-light passing by the limb of the sun was found to
'bend' towards the sun just as predicted by Einstein's General
Theory of Relativity.
At the time, Einstein wrote in the London Times: "The chief
attraction of the theory lies in its logical completeness. If a single
one of the conclusions drawn from it proves wrong, it must be given up;
to modify it without destroying the whole structure seems to be
impossible."
By the same token, had the Cipher Key failed to yield prima facie
significant results when I first applied to Mr. Pálsson's core
thesis - more out of curiosity rather than any expectation that such
would be the case - I would not have moved on to test its possible
application to aspects of the Shakespeare Opus which, on the surface,
had appeared to me evocative of familiar Saga themes.
In one of his English-language books, Mr. Pálsson summarized the
relationship of The World as defined by Triangle 3:4:5 to the Macrocosm
represented by the Zodiac as follows:
"The triangle 3:4:5 was a part [of the Cosmos of Rangárhverfi].
Icelandic symbolism indicates that this Cosmos was an earthly sanctuary
(216,000 feet in diameter) devoted to the gods and representing a
projection on the ground of the sacred area of the heavens." ('The
Sacred Triangle of Pagan Iceland', footnote, p. 20)
It was not a foregone conclusion - "probability 100 percent" -
that the Cipher Value of the "set of words" that comprise Mr.
Pálsson's CORE thesis would mirror the number (25920) of calendar
years in a Platonic Great Year, during which the equinoctial points
prescribed one complete circle around the Zodiac - a concept which,
apparently, was an integral part of the cosmology of the pre-historic
people who built Stonehenge in the third millennium B.C.
****
* "The world was created on a small island off the south coast of
Iceland. The name of the island is Þrídrangr (Triple Rock). ...
Numerology resides in the world. Men safeguard that numerology in
letters which are called runes. One of the runes is called MAN. It is
potent in nature, one and triunite. In it reside the concepts of Beam,
Hand and Man. The meaning of these concepts is strange to modern minds
- especially that of the last one. MAN is "tree", he is
"fire" and he is "penis" - a horse penis. It is no ordinary
penis, it is the giver of life, symbol of Cosmic Fertility. Thus, MAN
is at once giver of life to men and giver of life to the world. He
symbolizes Creation. (Baksvið Njálu, 'Background to Njála',
Reykjavík, 1969, p. 80; my translation.)
Tom Veal
of your choice related to Mr. Pálsson's "first hypothesis" would equal
some number that you regarded as significant in some way. The
connection between the "mythical locus of the Creation of the World of
Time and Space" and the precession of the equinoxes is, to put it
mildly, rather loose. If the "cipher value" of the former had been
different, it wouldn't have been hard to find some similarly vague link
to something else of pseudo-mystical importance.
gangleri
as
(a) the locus of Creation (Þrídrangr, 5003), of
(b) The World in Time/Tími, 2315, and Space/Rúm, 2312, alias
Microcosmic Man, and
(c) the three points of Triangle 3:4:5 representing The World created
at Þrídrangr (Bergþórshváll, 7196, Miðeyjarhólmr, 6067, and
Helgafell, 3027).
And, as noted previously, it was Mr. Pálsson's hypothesis
(i) that "Numerology resides in the world," and that
(ii) that "Men safeguard that numerology in letters which are called
runes."
All these aspects of his CORE hypothesis were published and elaborated
by Mr. Pálsson long before the Cipher Key saw the light of day and it
occurred to me that, perhaps, it might codify "numerology" which
Iceland's 9th century settlers and Saga Authors of the 13th century
held to be "safeguarded in letters".
In applying the Cipher Key to the "words" in which Mr. Pálsson
formulated his CORE thesis, the element of "choice" on my part was on
par with that of Eddington in putting a specific key prediction of
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity to the test in 1919 - namely,
non-existent.
****
As for your comment -
The connection between the "mythical locus of the Creation of the World
of Time and Space" and the precession of the equinoxes is, to put it
mildly, rather loose.
- the correspondence in question was between the Cipher Values of ALL
the abvoe elements identified by Mr. Pálsson (5003 + 2315 + 2312 +
7196 + 6067 + 3027 = 25920) and the number of calendar years (25920) in
a Platonic Great Year.
As for the connection between the Cipher Sum 25920 and a Platonic Great
Year of 25920 calendar years, I just searched Google for "Platonic
great year myth" and came across the following comment:
"...in ancient Greece, Plato taught of a large cycle of time which
would slowly return us to a "Golden Age". He called this cycle: The
Great Year."
As detailed in my opening message on this thread (July 17), the Golden
Age aspect is at the very heart of Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth, as
spelled out in the extract from Virgil's Fourth Eclogue which I
identify there as Alpha to the Omega of the closing lines of Ovid's
Metamorphoses.
Here is Virgil's text in translation:
Tom Veal
take a look at the two sides of your quasi-equation:
1. On one side, you add together the "cipher values" of the words
"Þrídrangr" [the island on which, according to Mr. Pálsson's
rendition of Icelandic mythology, the world was created], "Tími"
["time"], "Rúm" ["space"] and three place names
[Bergþórshváll, Miðeyjarhólmr and Helgafell]. In a footnote, you
provide a quotation from Pálsson to demonstrate that these words form
the "CORE" of his (unintelligible) hypothesis:
"The world was created on a small island off the south coast of
Iceland. The name of the island is Þrídrangr (Triple Rock). ...
Numerology resides in the world. Men safeguard that numerology in
letters which are called runes. One of the runes is called MAN. It is
potent in nature, one and triunite. In it reside the concepts of Beam,
Hand and Man. The meaning of these concepts is strange to modern minds
- especially that of the last one. MAN is "tree", he is "fire" and he
is "penis" - a horse penis. It is no ordinary penis, it is the giver
of life, symbol of Cosmic Fertility. Thus, MAN is at once giver of
life to men and giver of life to the world. He symbolizes Creation.
(Baksvið Njálu, 'Background to Njála', Reykjavík, 1969, p. 80; my
[Gangleri's] translation.)
Of your six words, only one ("Þrídrangr") appears in this
quotation. It does not say that "time" and "space" were created
on Þrídrangr, and the notion that space was created at a particular
locale would be odd even for mythological discourse. It looks like you
have imported those words to gloss "world". Similarly, there is no
mention of the three headlands. Why select them as synonyms for
"world" in preference to the many other symbolic concepts that
could be drawn from the sagas, e.g., the Yggdrasill tree or
Asgard/Midgard/Niflheim.
Meanwhile, you choose to ignore other words that your authority
emphasizes, such as "Man", "tree", "fire" and "penis".
In short, you chose quite freely in deciding which words to cast into
your cipher machine.
2. On the other side we have the number 25,920, an approximate value
for the period of a complete precession of the equinoxes. To explain
what that has to do with the creation of time and space, you turn to a
Web site called "Sacred Science" and quote its discussion of the
"Great Year" (http://www.sacredscience.com/archive/GreatYear.htm),
whose nuttiness will be self-evident to any but the most addled
readers. Even were it true that "Plato taught of a large cycle of
time which would slowly return us to a 'Golden Age' [and] called
this cycle: The Great Year", his "Great Year" could have nothing
to do with the precession of the equinoxes, which was unknown to the
Greek world until it was discovered by Hipparchos some two centuries
after Plato's death. In any event, the connection between the
creation of the world and the return of the "Golden Age" is rather
loose. Many other concepts could just as easily be connected to
creation.
To summarize, you had great freedom to decide what words represented
the Pálsson "hypothesis" and made use of it. You then had a wide
range of concepts that could be considered related to some extent and
selected one that happened to fit the "cipher value" of the former.
The probability that you would be unable to succeed with such a
flexible and arbitrary method was zero.
gangleri
Of your six words, only one ("Þrídrangr") appears in this quotation*.
It does not say that "time" and "space" were created on Þrídrangr**,
and the notion that space was created at a particular locale would be
odd even for mythological discourse. It looks like you have imported
those words to gloss "world". Similarly, there is no mention of the
three headlands. Why select them as synonyms for "world" in preference
to the many other symbolic concepts that could be drawn from the sagas,
e.g., the Yggdrasill tree or Asgard/Midgard/Niflheim.
Comment:
* "The triangle 3:4:5 was derived from the Primeval Hill
(Bergþórshvoll [hvoll = hváll in 9th-13th century Icelandic -
insert] in Landeyjar. It, so to speak, "emanates" from there. [...]
Angle 90º is to be found in a place called Miðeyjarhólmur the "grove
on the Middle Island", the northern point has the angle 36º in a place
called Helgafell ("the Holy Fell") due North of Miðeyjarhólmr."
(Einar Pálsson, 'The Sacred Triangle of Pagan Iceland', 1993, pp.
39-40.
** "Bergþórshvoll was the place from where all counting started, of
TIME as well as of SPACE." (Op. cit. p. 41 - capitals added)
P.S. All these concepts are elaborated at length in Einar Pálsson's
eleven-volume opus on 'Roots of Icelandic Culture'. I post the
citations from one of his three English language books so that there be
no question about the integrity of my elaboration of the bird's-eye
view set forth by Einar in the first hypothesis set forth in the first
of his eleven volumes in Icelandic on the subject matter.
Tom Veal
two different places and two disparate concepts (the creation of the
world vs. the measurement of time and space). "Flexible" strikes me as
a proper characterization of that procedure.
gangleri
Even were it true that "Plato taught of a large cycle of time which
would slowly return us to a 'Golden Age' [and] called this cycle: The
Great Year", his "Great Year" could have nothing to do with the
precession of the equinoxes, which was unknown to the Greek world until
it was discovered by Hipparchos some two centuries after Plato's death.
Comment:
The label of Platonic Great Year was affixed long after Plato to the
phenomenon which the Sumerian discovered long before Hipparchos - as
you must know.
And, if you don't, here are comments on the subject matter from someone
who does:
"There remains the standard objection that, had the "precession of the
equinoxes" been recognized by pre-Hipparchian astronomers, Plato would
have allowed in his model for a second and slower eastward motion of
the celestial equator, additional to the diurnal one, and Eudoxus would
have provided an extra rotating sphere to handle it. (Eudoxus
attempted to model the planetary motions on a set of concentric spheres
within the larger sphere of the universe itself.) This might be true
if, as is not the case, the precessional phenomena had been correctly
construed as cyclical, i.e., as due to the westward advance along the
ecliptic of the point where the equator intersects the ecliptic. To
judge by Plato's 'Politicus', however, the phenomenon in question were
construed as alternating or reciprocating, as if, to use a modern
analogy, they were governed by a spring-driven mechanism, alternatively
wound up and running down.
"Plato's omission in the 'Politicus' to specify a rate of change for
this stellar drift, indeed its total omission from the polyspherical
models of the cosmos of both Plato and Eudoxus, and Eudoxus'
combination of an excellent value for the tropical year with inaccurate
locations of the equinoctial points suggest the following conclusions.
[Pace Tom Veal - insert] Plato, and probably Eudoxus too, learned of
the phenomena at issue not through personal observation but at second
hand. They learned of them from a source that happened to omit all
kinematic and quantitative specifications, i.e., presumably through
Egyptian "myths" like the ones cited by Plato ('Timaeus' 22; 'Critias'
112A). Eudoxus, in particular, learned of them from a source unrelated
to the Babylonian sources from which he demonstrably derived his
conventional and empirically inaccurate locations of the equinoctial
points (at 22º of their signs in an early work and 15º in a later
work.) Finally, both Plato and Eudoxus felt sufficiently sanguine
about the kinematic axiom of uniform circular motion and sufficiently
diffident about the empirical details of "precessional" motion to be
prepared to sacrifice the latter on the altar of the former - at least
pending sharper information and/or the availability of a better axiom.
After all, this sort of tug-of-war between theoretical models and
notorious phenomena is (as Saltzer has recently stressed) a central and
well documented aspect of the whole history of Greek astronomy.
Witness Ptolemy's inability, within his geometric model, to do more
than register the retrograde motions of the interior planets; and
Eudoxus' inability within his homospheric spheres models, to
accommodate such notorious phenomena as the variable size and
brightness of all planets and even such prominent retrogradations as
those of Mars and Venus.
"Now Professor von Dechend," the writer continues, "has succeeded in
identifying a number of mythological formulae and motifs which, if they
are not patronizingly to be dismissed as the confused phantasies of
childlike "primitives," make sense as hypothetical explanations of
precisely this slow eastward drift of the solstitial and equinoctial
constellations and the consequent periodic obsolescence of those
cardinal points by reference to which we orient ourselves here on
earth.
"Take the story of how at the end of the so-called Golden Age the sun
was displaced from his former path by the fact that Phaeton, the sun
god's son, lost control of the solar chariot; or the story of how Zeus,
disgusted by the cannibalistic dish fed him by Lykaon (who wished to
test Zeus's omniscience), kicked over the table in horror. Both
stories, so von Dechend shows, refer to the successive phases of one
and the same process, the gradual displacement of the familiar
constellations marking vernal and autumnal equinox and summer and
winter solstice by new constellations to the west of them. Thus
Phaethon's Fall marked the end of the Golden Age, the great world age
when the Milky Way, linking Gemini and Sagittarius, had coincided with
the sun's equinoctial place. The episode of Lykaon's dish marked the
end of the next or Silver Age, when Taurus and Scorpio had replaced
Gemini and Sagittarius as the constellations governing the equinoxes
(and the north pole had, of course, shifted accordingly).
"To be sure, the mythological language describing the eastward slippage
of familiar equinoctial and solstitial constellations originally did so
in terms of the corresponding naked-eye phenomena only, i.e., not in
terms of the equator-ecliptic coordinate system, which, as we have
noted, is a relatively late invention." (Harald A. T. Reiche, 'The
Language of Archaic Astronomy', in 'Astronomy of the Ancients', ed. by
Kenneth Brecher and Michael Feirtag, MIT Press, 1981, pp. 158-159)
P.S. Being familiar with Yggdrasill and the Asgard/Midgard/Niflheim
aspects of Edda Myth, you must surely know that the Golden Age and its
disruption by Three Witches - Macbeth-style - is prelude to an age in
which there is a break-down of civil order and onset of intellectual
and moral mayhem which culminates in Ragnaök (Götterdämmerung or
Twilight of the Gods) in the majestic thousand year old Icelandic poem
Völuspá (Sybil's Prophecy).
gangleri
So you have amalgamated passages from two different books, dealing with
two different places and two disparate concepts (the creation of the
world vs. the measurement of time and space). "Flexible" strikes me as
a proper characterization of that procedure.
Comment:
Einar Pálsson fleshed out his introductory CORE hypothesis # 1 with
hypotheses #2-64 and, by the time I read his work, had published
another 5 or 6 volumes on the subject matter.
The concepts/words which I have represented as comprising Einar's CORE
hypothesis will be immediately recognized as such by anyone familiar
with it.
Tom Veal
to read or think critically about it. It does not say that the
Sumerians discovered the precession of the equinoxes. Rather, it
attributes to early Greeks an awareness that certain celestial
phenomena had been associated with different constellations at some
point in the past. It implicitly contradicts the notion that Sumer was
the ultimate source. If Eudoxus did not derive his (hypothesized)
knowledge of the precession from Babylonia, it is unlikely that the
Babylonians knew about it, which makes it highly unlikely that the
Sumerians did - and certain that the Greeks did not get the idea from
Sumer, since all that they knew of that civilization's learning came
via Babylonia. There was no independent channel of transmission;
indeed, the Greeks didn't know that a land called Sumer had ever
existed.
The author's arguments and evidence strike me as feeble. He doesn't
give any reasons for thinking that Plato knew about the precession,
only excuses for why, if he had known of it, that fact might not have
come through in his writings. The second-hand mythological lore is
screwy. Nowhere in the mainstream of Greek mythographers have I ever
seen a suggestion that Phaethon's misfortune marked the end of the
Golden, or Lykaon's discourtesy to Zeus of the Silver, Age, and the
associations made by "Professor von Dechend" are quite far-fetched.
What is most to the purpose, though, is that none of what you have
quoted supports your association of Plato with a period of 25,920
years. Therefore, even if there were a discernible relationship between
what you describe as Einar Pálsson's hypothesis and what your nutty
Web source describes as Plato's concept of the Golden Age, the value
"25,920" would not point to the latter.
Tom Veal
unsurprise!
gangleri
What is most to the purpose, though, is that none of what you have
quoted supports your association of Plato with a period of 25,920
years.
Comment:
I took it for granted that the concept of a Platonic Great Year of
25920 calendar years was familiar to you.
Here is some of what Joseph Campbell wrote of "the astronomical
precession of the equinoxes":
"[It] requires for one complete cycle of the twelve zodiacal signs
exactly 25,920 years, which term is known as a "great" or
"Platonic" year."
gangleri
It is a pity that, while typing so long an excerpt, you did not bother
to read or think critically about it. It does not say that the
Sumerians discovered the precession of the equinoxes. Rather, it
attributes to early Greeks an awareness that certain celestial
phenomena had been associated with different constellations at some
point in the past. It implicitly contradicts the notion that Sumer was
the ultimate source. If Eudoxus did not derive his (hypothesized)
knowledge of the precession from Babylonia, it is unlikely that the
Babylonians knew about it, which makes it highly unlikely that the
Sumerians did - and certain that the Greeks did not get the idea from
Sumer, since all that they knew of that civilization's learning came
via Babylonia. There was no independent channel of transmission;
indeed, the Greeks didn't know that a land called Sumer had ever
existed.
Comment:
This morning, I sent the following query to a good friend and
associate, who is one of the world's leading Babylonian experts (and
multi-faceted genius, as indicated by his answer to my query)::
"Can you give me some background on why the 25920 year period for the
precession of the equinoxes came to be called Platonic Great Year?
"It's my understanding that the Sumerians had determined this to be the
period involved and that Plato was not aware of it."
Here is my friend's answer:
"Yes, the Sumerians developed it, on the basis of 60ths and squares. I
was able to duplicate their reasoning.
"Make a table of squares, cubes, and higher geometric functions.
"Calculate the difference between the numbers in an intervening column.
Then, calculat the differences between the differences. You will come
to this number. (My worksheets are all in Germany now.)
"It seems that someone in the late neolithic or early Bronze Age had
the time to simply begin making all the calculations they could,
including Pythagorean squares (known from the neolithic already), and
look for patterns to emerge.
"I think the pattern came first, THEN the idea of precession. I DON'T
buy the Hamlet's Mill argument; I think the metaphors there were based
on the incompatibility between the lunar and solar years. That was the
great hump for neolithic astronomers to get over -- the idea that there
was really no neat compatibility here, requiring a "residual" period --
which became the Saturnalia.
"But that's another story."
Tom Veal
limited reading ability. Let me try to summarize the salient points:
When I questioned what the precession of the equinoxes had to do with
purported Icelandic mythology concerning the creation of time and
space, you responded by citing a high school Web site's description of
Plato's views concerning the return of the Golden Age.
I responded that whatever Plato thought about that subject had nothing
to do with the precession of the equinoxes, which wasn't discovered
until over 200 years after he died.
You riposted with an extract from a work claiming that Plato knew,
though only in a vague, non-quantitative fashion, about the fact from
which precession is inferred, viz., that the relative positions of the
constellations and other stellar phenonmena have shifted over time.
And, said I, Plato's lack of quantitative knowledge indicates that he
did not know that the precession takes (approximately) 25,920 years to
return to its starting point.
To which you make your off-the-point response. If Plato had nothing to
do with the "Platonic Great Year", his (alleged) opinions about the
return of the Golden Age cannot establish a link between your six
mystical Icelandic words and the number 25,920. So what connection is
there? Why should we marvel at your supposedly improbable coincidence?
Tom Veal
hypothesis that the Sumerians either knew that the equinoxes precess or
calculated the length of the period of a complete cycle of
prececession. Since that is an astronomical phenomenon that cannot be
deduced from patterns of differences between the powers of numbers, my
deduction is that your informant is quite as detached from reality as
your "Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth".
gangleri
"It's my understanding that the Sumerians had determined [the 25920
years] to be the
period involved ..."
Response:
"Yes, the Sumerians developed it [...] I think the pattern came first,
THEN the idea of precession."
In other words, "my understanding" accords with that of one of the
world's foremost experts on all things Sumerian/Babylonian - "The
Sumerians developed it..."
Tom's reading of the exchange:
"I see no evidence in the statement that you quote to support the
hypothesis that the Sumerians either knew that the equinoxes precess or
calculated the length of the period of a complete cycle of
prececession."
Comment:
So we are again reduced to relying on your "Ego Dixi". What an
unsurprise!
Except this time others can judge your credibility for themselves.
Tom Veal
to believe that the Sumerians discovered the period of the precession
of the equinoxes. What he does say is nonsense. The period cannot be
deduced from the relationships among various powers of numbers. Those
relationships are the same everywhere in the universe, yet the
equinoxes precess at different rates on every rotating body.
gangleri
"....you choose to ignore other words that your authority emphasizes,
such as "Man", "tree", "fire" and "penis"."
Comment:
In the context of Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth, the "Man" aspect is
one with the Hebrew concept of Man of Seventh Day.
In one of his books, Einar Pálsson quoted Friedrich Weintreb on Man of
Seventh Day's mission. "What Man of Seventh Day must do is to connect
[the two parts of the Name of JHWH, 10-5-6-5 in Hebrew Gematria -
insert]. He must unite the two parts, create a single entity, so that
the "unit" 10-5-6-5 may rise again." Einar goes on to note that, in
the Kabbalah, this re-union constitutes "the purpose of our world."
('Steinkross' or 'Stone Cross', 1976, p. 468 - my translation.)
In Shakespeare Myth, "the purpose of our world" so defined is
encapsulated in the three Shakespeare inscriptions in Stratford's Holy
Trinity Church, whose Cipher Values are 129308*, 54528**, and 39569***,
respectively, as follows:
1000 + 7 + 2602 + 1564 + 25920 + 2502 + 1616 + 54528 + 39569 = 129308,
where
1000 = Light of the World (incarnate in)
7 = Man/MAN-Beast of Seventh Day (on)
2602 = April 26;
1564 = 1564 (at the Stratfordian's 'baptism')
25920 = Platonic Great Year [mirrored in the Cipher Value of
Microcosmic Man of Saga Myth alias Creation in Time and Space, as per
Einar Pálsson's hypothesis # 1 translated into numerical form by the
Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key] (which concludes on)
2502 = April 25;
1616 = 1616 (with the Stratfordian's 'burial'.)
I submit that this (and other) Cipher Evidence cannot be dismissed as
product of mere chance - that it offers strong support for the
hypothesis
(a) that the Stratfordian of record was an archetype, and
(b) that the Shakespeare Opus was the crowning achievement of the
Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare literary tradition of 'hidden poetry'.
****
* 129308 = STAY PASSENGER, WHY GOEST THOV BY SO FAST READ IF THOV CANST
WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST WITH IN THIS MONVMENT SHAKSPEARE: WITH
WHOME, QVICK NATVRE DIDE: WHOSE NAME, DOTH DECK YS TOMBE, FAR MORE,
THEN COST:
** 54528 = GOOD FREND FOR IESVS SAKE FORBEARE, TO DIGG THE DVST
ENCLOASED HEARE: BLESE BE Y MAN Y SPARES THES STONES AND CVRST BE HE Y
MOVES MY BONES.
*** 39569 = IUDICIO PYLIUM, GENIO SOCRATEM, ARTE MARONEM TERRA TEGIT,
POPULUS MÆRET, OLYMPUS HABET
****
The Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key and Calculator are posted on the
Internet at http://www.light-of-truth.com/gunnartomasson/ciphers.htm
David L. Webb
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I keep forgetting to make allowances for your enfeebled memory and
> limited reading ability.
I can certainly sympathize -- I suffer from the same forgetfulness in
many of my exchanges with anti-Stratfordians.
> Let me try to summarize the salient points:
>
> When I questioned what the precession of the equinoxes had to do with
> purported Icelandic mythology concerning the creation of time and
> space, you responded by citing a high school Web site's description of
> Plato's views concerning the return of the Golden Age.
That's actually a pretty authoritative source for most
anti-Stratfordians.
> I responded that whatever Plato thought about that subject had nothing
> to do with the precession of the equinoxes, which wasn't discovered
> until over 200 years after he died.
>
> You riposted with an extract from a work claiming that Plato knew,
> though only in a vague, non-quantitative fashion, about the fact from
> which precession is inferred, viz., that the relative positions of the
> constellations and other stellar phenonmena have shifted over time.
>
> And, said I, Plato's lack of quantitative knowledge indicates that he
> did not know that the precession takes (approximately) 25,920 years to
> return to its starting point.
>
> To which you make your off-the-point response. If Plato had nothing to
> do with the "Platonic Great Year", his (alleged) opinions about the
> return of the Golden Age cannot establish a link between your six
> mystical Icelandic words and the number 25,920. So what connection is
> there? Why should we marvel at your supposedly improbable coincidence?
Remarkable, isn't it?
Tom Reedy
news:David.L.Webb-6E84...@merrimack.dartmouth.edu...
> In article <1121960368.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> I keep forgetting to make allowances for your enfeebled memory and
>> limited reading ability.
>
> I can certainly sympathize -- I suffer from the same forgetfulness in
> many of my exchanges with anti-Stratfordians.
>
>> Let me try to summarize the salient points:
>>
>> When I questioned what the precession of the equinoxes had to do with
>> purported Icelandic mythology concerning the creation of time and
>> space, you responded by citing a high school Web site's description of
>> Plato's views concerning the return of the Golden Age.
>
> That's actually a pretty authoritative source for most
> anti-Stratfordians.
It's certainly better than most of their sources. Crowley, for example, sits
in his arm chair and spins fantasies about how it must have been.
>
>> I responded that whatever Plato thought about that subject had nothing
>> to do with the precession of the equinoxes, which wasn't discovered
>> until over 200 years after he died.
>>
>> You riposted with an extract from a work claiming that Plato knew,
>> though only in a vague, non-quantitative fashion, about the fact from
>> which precession is inferred, viz., that the relative positions of the
>> constellations and other stellar phenonmena have shifted over time.
>>
>> And, said I, Plato's lack of quantitative knowledge indicates that he
>> did not know that the precession takes (approximately) 25,920 years to
>> return to its starting point.
>>
>> To which you make your off-the-point response. If Plato had nothing to
>> do with the "Platonic Great Year", his (alleged) opinions about the
>> return of the Golden Age cannot establish a link between your six
>> mystical Icelandic words and the number 25,920. So what connection is
>> there? Why should we marvel at your supposedly improbable coincidence?
>
> Remarkable, isn't it?
What's really remarkable is that they believe they're winning.
TR
David L. Webb
"Tom Reedy" <tomr...@verizon.net> wrote:
Delusions of competence (Kruger-Dunning sundrome). Here's are some
priceless quotations from Elizabeth Weird that illustrate your point:
"I really don't care if my cat walks back and forth across my
keyboard because typos haven't stopped me from trouncing you in every
debate."
When I remarked upon the bogus "quotation" that Elizabeth attributed
quite explicitly to Dave Kathman's essay on dating _The Tempest_,
Elizabeth rejoined:
"Have you forgotten that Kathman didn't have the guts to debate me so
you stepped in and blew the debate on Kathman's behalf.
"If you want a replay, I'll be happy to whip your silly ass again."
"I took Kathman in the Strachey debate, Art,...."
[...]
gangleri
If Plato had nothing to do with the "Platonic Great Year", his
(alleged) opinions about the return of the Golden Age cannot establish
a link between your six mystical Icelandic words and the number 25,920.
Comment:
My statement in message # 8 Jul 18, 7.26 pm -
A concept which would later become known as a Platonic Great Year and
denoted by 25920.
- is a matter of fact.
The association of the Platonic Great Year, 25920, with the numerology
which Iceland's 9th century settlers associated with Settlement of
virgin land and equated to Creation of The World concerns the Great
Year's numerical value - that is, with the calendar year period of
one complete circle of the equinoctial points around the Zodiac - and
not its modern Platonic label.
Tom Veal
books that discuss Plato's opinions concerning the return of the Golden
Age and knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes?
Leaving Plato out of the picture, the connection between the precession
of the equinoxes and the creation of the world is not intuitively
obvious. If the world had never been created, it wouldn't have
equinoxes, of course, but that's as close a link as I can divine.
It's odd that, even though your procedure has a 100 percent probability
of success, you managed to *fail* to equate the "cipher values" of your
six mystical words to anything remotely pertinent. That was quite an
accomplishment!
gangleri
In that case, why did you think it pertinent to quote Web pages and
books that discuss Plato's opinions concerning the return of the Golden
Age and knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes?
Comments:
1. "In that case"?
There was never any other "case" except as represented by you.
2. "...why did I think it pertinent....?"
The context was spelled out at the time as follows:
Tom Veal
pass the Turing Test. You may as well go back to the monologue that I
interrupted. Dialogue isn't working.
gangleri
Stratford Monument', David Kathman writes, inter alia, as follows:
All [the] documentary evidence [reviewed] shows that the monument was
seen from the beginning as honoring a famous poet; none of it shows any
indication that the monument was ever taken to depict a grain dealer or
anything other than a poet.
Kathman then continues:
"One of the First Folios in the Folger Shakespeare Library (no. 26
according to the Folger numbering) contains three handwritten poems on
the last end page of the volume, written in a secretary hand dating
from approximately the 1620s. The first of these is the poem from
Shakespeare's monument in the Stratford church ("Stay passenger why
go'st thou by so fast"). The second is not recorded elsewhere, and goes
as follows:
Heere Shakespeare lyes whome none but Death could Shake
and heere shall ly till judgement all awake;
when the last trumpet doth unclose his eyes
the wittiest poet in the world shall rise.
[Shakespeare Quarterly 39 (1988):60]
The third poem is the one on Shakespeare's tombstone, also in the
Stratford church ("Good ffriend for Jesus sake forbeare"). Apparently,
somebody went to Stratford and transcribed the poems off the monument
and the tombstone, then transcribed them into a copy of the First Folio
along with another epitaph. This writer seems not only to have believed
that the man buried in Stratford was the author of the First Folio, but
that he was "the wittiest poet in the world."
****
The Cipher Value of the second poem, "Heere Shakespeare lyes...",
is 83829, while that of the "Good frend..." poem* on the
Stratfordian's 'bones' is 54528.
In the context of Shakespeare Myth, "the last trumpet" heralds the
end of Archetypal/Stratfordian MAN-Beast's "houre vpon the
stage", as in 83829 + 54528 = 138357.
The Cipher Value of the two poems is mirrored in the Cipher Sum 114285
+ 7524 + 1000 + 7615 + 7933 = 138357, where
114285 = Omega sentence of Francis Bacon's (1625) Essay 'Of
Truth';
- Surely the Wickednesse of Falshood, and Breach of Faith, cannot
possibly be so highly expressed, as in that it shall be the last Peale,
to call the Iudgements of God, vpon the Generations of Men, It being
foretold, that when Christ commeth, He shall not finde faith vpon the
earth. -
7524 = The Second Coming;
1000 = Light of the World;
7615 = Get thee hence, Satan. (Matt. 4:10); and
7933 = Non Sanz Droict - the Stratfordian Family Motto.
****
The imagery of Matt. 4:1-11 concerns the Quest of the Holy Grail
(Graal) which is held to be set in motion with Monad's division at
Seventh Day's Dawn into polar opposites - often symbolized by
'two brothers', 'light' and 'shadow', 'two hands',
'day' and 'night' - as in Jesus, 3394, and The Devil, 3858,
of Matt. 4:1-11.
This imagery relates the "Stay passenger..." poem** (Cipher Value
129308) to that of the two other poems (138357) through the Cipher Sum
129308 + 1 + 3394 + 3858 + 1796 = 138357, where
1 = Monad;
3394 = Jesus;
3858 = The Devil;
1796 = Graal.
****
* 54528 = GOOD FREND FOR IESVS SAKE FORBEARE, TO DIGG THE DVST
ENCLOASED HEARE: BLESE BE Y MAN Y SPARES THES STONES AND CVRST BE HE Y
MOVES MY BONES
** 129308 = STAY PASSENGER, WHY GOEST THOV BY SO FAST READ IF THOV
CANST WHOM ENVIOVS DEATH HATH PLAST WITH IN THIS MONVMENT SHAKSPEARE:
WITH WHOME, QVICK NATVRE DIDE: WHOSE NAME, DOTH DECK YS TOMBE, FAR
MORE, THEN COST: SIEH ALL YT HE HATH WRITT LEAVES LIVING ART BUT PAGE
TO SERVE HIS WITT.
gangleri
Coming, 7524, is held to be heralded by the Four Royal Stars of ancient
Persia - Aldebaran-Antares-Fomalhaut-Regulus, 15322, become Four
Gospel Writers in medieval Christian mysticism.
The Four Royal Stars, which are the brightest stars of the four
quarters of heaven, relate the imagery to one circle of the equinoctial
points around the Zodiac, 45319*, become "houre vpon the stage" of
Microcosmic Saga Man, 25920**, personified in Shakespeare Myth by Ben
Jonson, 4692, playcast as 'renowned Shakespear's Shadowe', with
The Second Coming marking The End, 100, of the fabled 'strife'
between 'Shadowe' and 'renowned Shakespear'/Light of the World.
Through the text and Cipher Value (83829) the poem inscribed in one of
the Folger Library's copies of the First Folio -
Heere Shakespeare lyes whome none but Death could Shake
and heere shall ly till judgement all awake;
when the last trumpet doth unclose his eyes
the wittiest poet in the world shall rise.
- The Second Coming is tied to the Cipher Sum 83829 + 7524 = 91353.
This Cipher Value is mirrored in the Cipher Sum of the other components
of the Shakespeare Myth as detailed above, as in 15322 + 45319 + 25920
+ 4692 + 100 = 91353.
****
* 45319 =
Leo-Virgo-Libra-Scorpio-Sagittarius-Capricornus-Aquarius-Pisces-
Aries-Taurus-Gemini-Cancer.
** Extract from my message on this thread posted on July 18, at 7:26
pm:
As noted in my original message on this thread, Einar [Pálsson] had
identified the island of Þrídrangr, 5003, off the south coast of
Iceland as mythical locus of The World's Creation, with ' the world'
denoting the Microcosm which Iceland's 9th century settlers had
identified with Triangle 3:4:5, whose three corners were represented by
9th century landmarks known as Bergþórshváll, 7196,
Miðeyjarhólmr, 6067, and Helgafell, 3027.
For Iceland's 9th century settlers, according to Einar's hypothesis,
'the world' so defined represented Microcosmic Man as Creation in Time
and Space - Icelandic Tími, 2315, and Rúm, 2312.
This was Einar´s hypothesis.
When I applied the Saga-Shakespeare Cipher Key to this hypothesis, the
outcome - 5003 + 7196 + 6067 + 3027 + 2315 + 2312 = 25920 - turned out
to mirror the number which the ancient Sumerians had identified as the
number of calendar years during which the precession of the equinoctial
points described one complete circle around the Zodiac.
A concept which would later become known as a Platonic Great Year and
denoted by 25920.
****
Tom Reedy
TR
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1122049650.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom Veal
it as Weir 2.0: improved vocabulary and syntax, a bigger and more
exotic database, but the same problem than plagues all artificial
intelligence programs to date, viz., inability to remain coherent in a
conversation with human beings. Thus it fails the Turing Test, though
its performance is sporadically impressive.
David L. Webb
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Have you considered the possibility that "gangleri" is an AI? Think of
> it as Weir 2.0: improved vocabulary and syntax,
Surely that it to expected -- worse grammar and syntax in English --
let alone in the foreign languages on which Elizabeth pontificates in
such colossal ignorance -- would scarcely be imaginable.
> a bigger and more
> exotic database,
I'm not so sure -- the "database" in this case seems to consist
solely of a chart of numerical values to be associated to letters.
> but the same problem than plagues all artificial
> intelligence programs to date, viz., inability to remain coherent in a
> conversation with human beings. Thus it fails the Turing Test, though
> its performance is sporadically impressive.
"Gangleri" certainly fails the Turing Test. However, I would argue
that, while far less coherent than "gangleri," Elizabeth actually passes
the Turing Test, albeit in an unexpected manner. Consider the following
utterances:
"Elizabethan males wore ridiculous clothing but Leicester
looks like a sexy beast in his doublet and hose--the musk
fairly radiates off the canvas. Southampton's clothes
in his 1600 portrait are over the top--he looks like he's
got his bustle on sideways--but Southampton was gay.
What can I say?"
"While I was writing this post (now deleted) I had an insight
about the Southampton portrait..
Southampton is wearing a theatrical wig.
I didn't notice it before because I took it for granted that
Southampton was wearing his own hair in a feminine style
but I was thinking about that particular hair style with rows
of little curls framing his face. Those curls are very hard
to create unless the hair is very curly and somewhat coarse
to begin with. You have to roll the hair around something
and pin it from both sides and you end up with a pound and
a half of hairpins on your head.
No straight hair could be put into that style without glue.
On the other hand, those rows of small curls are easy to do
in wigs where curls made from purchased hair--it would still
have to be naturally curly--can be pinned or stitched to the
foundation of the wig. .
In his fine portrait done about 1615, Southampton's hair is
slightly wavy but with that hair style, slightly wavy is as same
as straight.
Furthermore, Southampton is described as having strawberry
blond hair. Light golden red. His hair was one of his most
striking features and it was still an amazing, although darker,
shade of red when he was in his forties.
The wig is sort of a brownish-blond.
I have one further point.
Thinking about the theatrical wig and the fact that it is not
Southampton's real hair, I realized that Southampton would
not have himself portrayed as a woman.
The earls were the English warrior class and Essex and
Southampton modeled their 'amity friendship' after
Achilles and Patroclus. Having himself painted as a (devalued)
female would be antithetical to the Petrarchan ideal of
pure platonic (male only) love.
Southampton could, however, legitimately commission a portrait
of himself as a female character from one of the Shakespeare
plays without violating the rules of amity friendship or scandalizing
society."
Surely *no* computer could possibly have written the above, for the
simple reason that computers, as far as is known, do no hallucinate.
[...]
gangleri
1. On his website, Peter Farey advises that "the Tamburlaines [plays]
were not directly associated with the name 'Marlow' until 1631."
2. John Baker, who holds "that the Author of both Marlowe's canon and
Shakespeare's was one and the same person and that over a period of
nearly sixty years he carefully orchestrated the registrations of his
works," reports on his website that 'Tamburlaine' was first "entered
for publication" on August 14, 1590.
3. Others suggest that Edward Oxenford, 7936, who died in 1604, was
the author of the Shakespeare Opus which, by John Baker's reckoning,
would include 'Tamburlaine' - if such were in fact the case, then the
date of August 14, 1590 would associate the author with the Cipher Sum
7936 + 1406 + 1590 = 10932.
4. As in 1 + 11931 - 1000 = 10932, where Monad (1) and the Cipher Key
(11931) [which the Icelandic sage and literary master Snorri Sturluson
embedded in a single sentence in the first half of the 13th century and
which I discovered in the 1970s] are linked to the Darkness (- 1000) of
Ignorance which envelopes the 'real' William Shakespeare alias the
Immortal Poet of Ovid's 'Metamorphoses', whose final lines convey the
Poet's assurance that his 'disguise' will be no more on a "morning" yet
to come.
5. In the context of Shakespeare Myth viewed as the crowning
achievement of the Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare literary tradition, this
would refer to the Author of the First Folio, which was registered on
November 8, 1623 as in 10932 + 1000 + 809 + 1623 = 14364, where 1000
would denote "volumes light" noted by Ben Jonson in the closing lines
of his First Folio commendatory ode to William Shakespeare.
6. In his First Folio ode, Ben Jonson coined the concept of "Marlowes
mighty line", 10364, which the First Folio registration date would
connect to world-ending Flaming Sword, 4000 as in 10364 + 4000 = 14364.
7. It is my own hypothesis that Edward Oxenford 'passed' his literary
opus to Francis Bacon and Ben Jonson in order that they might "perfet
yt" - as in redrafting old works and adding new ones between Oxenford's
final years and the First Folio's publication in 1623.
8. It is also my hypothesis that the Stratfordian of record - that is
to say, the character whose 'baptism' and 'burial' are recorded in a
purported copy of Holy Trinity Church records - was an imaginary
Archetype whose diabolical attributes were mirrored in Tamburlaine, by
which name Robert Greene is thought to have referred to Marlowe.
9. An archetypal "poore player That struts and frets his houre vpon
the stage, And then is heard no more."
10. If "numerology resides in the world" of Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare
Myth as I have suggested, then the preceding bird's-eye view of what
our Stratfordian "boies" regard as inconceivable would seem to be
powerfully reaffirmed by
The Cipher Sum 175007 + 5223 + 7524 + 367239 = 554993,
and its mirror image
554893 + 100 = 554993.
****
Farewel my boies....
Tamburlaine:
Farewel my boies, my dearest friends, farewel,
My body feeles, my soule dooth weepe to see
Your sweet desires depriv'd my company
For Tamburlaine, the Scourge of God must die.
[Dies.]
Amyras:
Meet heaven and earth, and here let al things end
For earth hath spent the pride of all her fruit,
And heaven consum'd his choicest living fire.
Let earth and heaven his timelesse death deplore,
For both their woorths wil equall him no more.
(Cipher Value 175007)
In the context of Augustan-Saga-Shakespeare Myth, Tamburlaine, 5223,
would bid his 'boies farewel' at The Second Coming, 7524.
An event which, judging by Alfred Dodd's account thereof in 'Francis
Bacon's Personal Life-story', appears to have been equated in Masonic
symbolism with Francis Bacon's "sixtieth birthday" - an occasion at
which Ben Jonson is said to have delivered the following poem to the
60-year old Genius Mystery Maker (Cipher Value 367239):
Haile, happie Genius of this antient pile!
How comes it all things so about thee smile?
The fire, the wine, the men! and in the midst,
Thou stand'st as if some Mysterie thou did'st!
Pardon, I read it in thy face, the day
For whose returnes, and many, all these pray:
And so doe I. This is the sixtieth yeare
Since Bacon, and thy Lord was borne, and here;
Sonne to the grave wise Keeper of the Seale,
Fame, and foundation of the English Weale.
What then his Father was, that since is hee,
Now with a Title more to the Degree;
Englands high Chancellor: the destin'd heire
In his soft Cradle to his Fathers Chaire,
Whose even Thred the Fates spinne round, and full,
Out of their Choysest, and their whitest wooll.
'Tis a brave cause of joy, let it be knowne,
For 't were a narrow gladnesse, kept thine owne.
Give me a deep-crown'd-Bowle, that I may sing
In raysing him the wisdome of my King.
****
In the context of Shakespeare Myth, the 'death' of Tamburlaine - the
diabolical aspect of Christopher Marlowe - does NOT denote physical
'death' but the dawning of Light, as in Macbeth suffering a moment of
lucidity in Act V. Sc. v of Shakespeare's play:
Enter Macbeth, Seyton, & Souldiers, with, Drum and Colours.
Macbeth:
Hang out our Banners on the outward walls,
The Cry is still, they come: our Castles strength
Will laugh a Siedge to scorne: Heere let them lye,
Till Famine and the Ague eate them vp:
Were they not forc'd with those that should be ours,
We might haue met them darefull, beard to beard,
And beate them backward home. What is that noyse?
A Cry within of Women.
Seyton:
It is the cry of women, my good Lord.
Macbeth:
I haue almost forgot the taste of Feares:
The time ha's beene, my sences would haue cool'd
To heare a Night-shrieke, and my Fell of haire
Would at a dismall Treatise rowze, and stirre
As life were in't. I haue supt full with horrors,
Direnesse familiar to my slaughterous thoughts
Cannot once start me. Wherefore was that cry?
Seyton:
The Queene (my Lord) is dead.
Macbeth:
She should haue dy'de heereafter;
There would haue beene a time for such a word:
To morrow, and to morrow, and to morrow,
Creepes in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last Syllable of Recorded time:
And all our yesterdayes, haue lighted Fooles
The way to dusty death. Out, out, breefe Candle,
Life's but a walking Shadow, a poore Player,
That struts and frets his houre vpon the Stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a Tale
Told by an Ideot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing. (Cipher Value 554893)
Curtains/The End (Cipher Value 100)