Sonnet 12

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Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
24 jul. 2004 02:15:3424-07-2004
aan

12

VVhen I doe count the clock that tels the time,
And see the braue day sunck in hidious night,
When I behold the violet past prime,
And sable curls or siluer'd ore with white :
When lofty trees I see barren of leaues,
Which erst from heat did canopie the herd
And Sommers greene all girded vp in sheaues
Borne on the beare with white and bristly beard:
Then of thy beauty do I question make
That thou among the wastes of time must goe,
Since sweets and beauties do them-selues forsake,
And die as fast as they see others grow,
And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence
Saue breed to braue him,when he takes thee hence.

When I do count the clock that tells the time
And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
When I behold the violet past prime
And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
When lofty trees I see barren of leaves
Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,
And summer's green all girded up in sheaves
Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8
Then of thy beauty do I question make
That thou among the wastes of time must go,
Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
And die as fast as they see others grow; 12
And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.


[Other emendations in line 4: "all silvered o'er", "ensilvered o'er",
"or-silvered o'er", "'o'er-silvered are", "are silvered o'er"]
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted.

Art Neuendorffer

ongelezen,
24 jul. 2004 04:10:3024-07-2004
aan
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote
>
>                               12
>
> VVhen I doe count the clock that tels the time,
> And see the braue day sunck in hidious night,
> When I behold the violet past prime,
> And sable curls or silUER'd ore with white :

> When lofty trees I see barren of leaues,
> Which erst from heat did canopie the herd
> And Sommers GREENE all girded vp in sheaues
> Borne on the beare with white and bristly beard:
> Then of thy beauty do I question make
> That thou among the WASTES of time must goe,

> Since sweets and beauties do them-selues forsake,
> And die as fast as they see others grow,
>   And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence
>   Saue breed to braue him,when he takes thee hence.
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote
 
>                                 9
>
> The world wilbe thy widdow and still weepe,
> That thou no forme of thee hast left behind ,
> When EUERy priuat widdow well may keepe,
> By childrens eyes,her husbands shape in minde:
> Looke what an vnthrift in the world doth spend
> Shifts but his place,for still the world inioyes it
> But beauties WASTE HATH in the world an end,
> And kept vnvsde the vser so destroyes it:
>     No LOUE toward OTHERS in that bosome sits
>     That on himselfe such murdrous shame commits.
-----------------------------------------------------
        "That I do WASTE with OTHERS' LOVE,
              that HATH myself in HATE,"     - E.O.
 
 
http://www3.telus.net/oxford/oxfordspoems.html#toppoems
------------------------------------------------------------
 <<If others have their WILL Ann HATH a way.>>
                          --  ULYSSES  by Joyce
--------------------------------------------------------
      'I HATE' from HATE away SHE threw,
         And sav'd my life, saying 'not you'
 
                   - Sonnet 145
----------------------------------------------------
          Capital Letters:  145 (= 5 x 29)
 
                    T O.T H E.
                    O N L I E.
                    B E G E T
                    T E R.O F.
                    T H E S E.
                    I N S V I
                    N G.S O N
                    N E T S Mr
_____                   A L L.
______                  P P I
 
                   *W*H   S E.       W{H}
            A       H*A*    H       {H}A
            |  _______ *S*   _____       S
            |  _________ *T*  _____        T
            | ___N E _____ *E*  _____        E?
__     [2 9]   A N D
            |       A T.E T
            |       R N I T I
            |       E P R O M
            v       I S E D.B
                    Y.O V R.E
                    V E R-L I
                    V I N G.P
                    O E T.W I
                    S H E T H.
                    T H E.W E
                    L L-W I S
                    H I N G.A
                    D V E N T
                    V R E R I
                    N.S E T T
                    I N G.F O
                    R T H.T.T.
------------------------------------------
          "{H}aste maketh Waste."
 
     --  John Heywood.  Proverbes. Part i. Chap. ii.
-------------------------------------------------------
           Shakspere Blazon and Coat of Arms:
 
      "Gold on a BEND sable, a spear of the first. . .."
---------------------------------------------------------
    BEND: a diagonal bar, 1/5th the width of the shield,
   from upper left to lower right as one faces the shield.
-------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
24 jul. 2004 13:40:0324-07-2004
aan
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
Stonehouse) wrote:

>
> 12
...


>When I do count the clock that tells the time

When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,


>And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,

when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,


>When I behold the violet past prime

when I see flowers that are past their best


>And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4

and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,

>When lofty trees I see barren of leaves

when I see tall trees having lost all their leaves


>Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,

which once protected the cattle from the heat of the sun,


>And summer's green all girded up in sheaves

and the green growing barley of summertime reaped and tied up into


sheaves
>Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8

and carried on a hurdle, its beard now white and bristling,

>Then of thy beauty do I question make

then I debate with myself about your beauty,


>That thou among the wastes of time must go,

how you must travel into the desert of eternity,


>Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake

because dear and beautiful things must lose their nature


>And die as fast as they see others grow; 12

and die off, at the same pace as they see others growing up in their
place,

> And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence

and nothing can protect you against that reaper, Time,


> Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.

except descendants, who will defy him when he comes to take you away.


The whole poem is a single sentence, logically and grammatically, like
sonnet 7.

Line 1, 'count the clock'. We do not count when we can see it: a
glance is enough. We count when we hear it strike, which in the dark
(line 2) is our only resource. The clock strikes up to twelve times,
not (e.g.) twenty four. So it cannot be a coincidence that this is
sonnet number 12. It is a midnight poem.

Line 4, 'sable curls'. Not those of the addressee, which are not white
at all yet. This is still general, though a human touch is introduced
+IBM- ready for line 8?

Line 8. The bier is a farm implement and the beard is the awn on an
ear of barley. But this line could go without change into the
description of a funeral: the bier would be that which carries the
corpse, that of a Tudor gentleman, on his back with his short, neat,
pointed Tudor beard jutting upwards. I find this very powerful.

Line 10, 'wastes of time'. Here is no 'sure and certain hope of a
glorious resurrection', as in the service for the Burial of the Dead.
Shakespeare shows the influence of the Prayer Book often, but he is
not a religious writer. Could he write like this if he were a
religious man?

Line 11, 'themselves forsake'. Again, the word 'self' is used for the
essence of a thing, they cease to be what they were, they cease to be
'sweets and beauties'.

Line 13, 'scythe'. Hard to see in the Quarto spelling, but not in any
doubt, because it recalls the scythe that did the reaping in lines
7-8.

Line 4, the text. The Quarto has "or silver'd ore". That has been
defended in two ways:
(a) The fur of the sable is brown and not black, and heraldically 'or'
means 'gold'. So we are talking about golden hair that is silvered
over, 'brown hair, gold turning silver'. But the sable is dark brown,
nothing like gold (so far as I have been able to find out): 'lustrous
dark brown' Chambers' Dictionary, 'brune et noirātre' Larousse s.v.
Zibeline. Heraldically, indeed, 'sable' means 'black'.
(b) 'Or-silvered' could mean 'silvered with gold', gold sprinkling the
hair being used as a sign of old age. First, gold is not appropriate
for the job, and secondly, 'silvered with gold' is not good sense.
Katherine Duncan-Jones is right to dismiss all connections with gold
as 'unhelpful speculation'.

Emendations include:
"Are silvered o'er" or "o'er-silvered are". These introduce an
unwanted verb. The verbs are (2) see, (3) behold, (5) see, followed by
nouns with adjectival phrases. This is all about what the poet sees,
not a description of the outside world - we do not want an 'are'.

"All silver'd o'er" (Malone) is nearly the same as I have adopted
above, but it assumes the error arose by carrying back "o'er", which
is rather less likely than carrying forward. It also chimes with "all
girded up" in line 7 in a way that seems to have no point.

I have adopted:
"o'er-silver'd all", Verity, printed by Ingram and Redpath (1964-78),
previously Nicholson "o'er silver'd all" printed by Wright (1893).

LynnE

ongelezen,
24 jul. 2004 15:03:4324-07-2004
aan

"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

This is a very minor point, but why does he add "that tells the time" after
"count the clock"? Everyone knows that a clock tells the time. Is it just
very poor poetry to fill out the line, or is he suggesting that in another
context a clock could mean something else?

I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far. Don't know if anyone
else agrees. Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.

Best wishes,
Lynne

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 11:34:0025-07-2004
aan
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:43 -0400, "LynnE"
<lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
>news:41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk...
>> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
>> Stonehouse) wrote:
>>
>> > 12
>> ...
>> >When I do count the clock that tells the time
>> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,
...

>> Line 1, 'count the clock'. We do not count when we can see it: a
>> glance is enough. We count when we hear it strike, which in the dark
>> (line 2) is our only resource. The clock strikes up to twelve times,
>> not (e.g.) twenty four. So it cannot be a coincidence that this is
>> sonnet number 12. It is a midnight poem.
>
>This is a very minor point, but why does he add "that tells the time" after
>"count the clock"? Everyone knows that a clock tells the time. Is it just
>very poor poetry to fill out the line, or is he suggesting that in another
>context a clock could mean something else?

Good point. A thought: what time is it? This could mean "When I count
the chimes that tell me it is midnight", using the sonnet number and
line 2 to make that point. That is, the solemn sound of line 1 is our
first intimation, but we do not fully realise what is going on until
we have read the next line.

(On the birthday party hypothesis, we could imagine the recitations
were timed so that this sonnet came as the last stroke of twelve died
away. But we mustn't believe our imaginations.)


>
>I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far. Don't know if anyone
>else agrees. Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.

...
Absolutely not! I find it overwhelming - a sign of advancing age,
perhaps. But I try to keep clear of appreciation - if Shakespeare
can't get his poem across, what hope have I of doing it for him?

Tom Reedy

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 15:55:0725-07-2004
aan
"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:koyMc.46140$Gf7.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

I'm thinking it's the clock that indicates the times of your life, not one
that merely labels the passing hours. I think this is reinforced by the
formal phrasing of the opening line, "When I do count the clock . . ." i.e.
he's contemplating life, not just finding out what time it is.

Is it just
> very poor poetry to fill out the line, or is he suggesting that in another
> context a clock could mean something else?
>
> I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far. Don't know if anyone
> else agrees.

I don't now about anyone else, but I disagree with you. This is
existentialism, not just an attempt to persuade a reluctant parent.
Stylistically it is one of the most economical and focused sonnets, IMO.

> Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.

Well, it seems he's getting tired of badgering his addressee, anyway.

TR

Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 15:55:1525-07-2004
aan
"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:koyMc.46140$Gf7.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

1. When I doe count the clock that tels the time,
2. And see the brave day sunck in hidious night,
3. When I behold the violet past prime,
4. And sable curls or silver'd ore with white:
5. When lofty trees I see barren of leaves,
6. Which erst from heat did canopie the herd
7. And Sommers greene all girded up in sheaves
8. Borne on the beare with white and bristly beard:
9. Then of thy beauty do I question make
10. That thou among the wastes of time must goe,
11. Since sweets and beauties do them-selves forsake,
12. And die as fast as they see others grow,
13. And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence
14. Save breed to brave him, when he takes thee hence.

> > Line 1, 'count the clock'. We do not count when we can see it: a
> > glance is enough. We count when we hear it strike, which in the dark
> > (line 2) is our only resource. The clock strikes up to twelve times,
> > not (e.g.) twenty four. So it cannot be a coincidence that this is
> > sonnet number 12. It is a midnight poem.
>
> This is a very minor point, but why does he add "that tells the time"

Two verbs from OED which could be spelled 'tel':
Tele (v.) Obsolete
1. trans. To speak evil of, or to; to revile, calumniate; to mock, scorn, deride.
2. To deceive, entrap [cf. ON. t\la to betray].
Hence teling vbl. n. (also 3 teolunge, 4 -yng, teliinge, 4-5 telyng, teeling),
deception, sorcery, witchcraft.

Till (v.) Obsolete
1. trans. To draw, attract, persuade; to entice, allure, coax; to win over.
1600 Holland Livy xxi. xi. 399 By tilling them on, and alluring them with hope
of great rewards. 1609 C. Butler Fem. Mon. ii. (1623) Div, The sunne rising
doth oftimes till them forth. 1666 M. M. Solomon's Prescript. 83 Devils . .
labouring to . . till thee on.

> after
> "count the clock"? Everyone knows that a clock tells the time. Is it just
> very poor poetry to fill out the line,

No.

> or is he suggesting that in another
> context a clock could mean something else?

Yes.

> I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far.

How can you begin to talk about 'style' when
you haven't a clue as to what the sonnet is
about?

> Don't know if anyone
> else agrees. Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.


Have some bloody faith in the poet,
woman. As ever, the fault lies with you
-- not with him. This is a relatively early
poem, so he's barely started.

> "Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

> > Line 4, 'sable curls'. Not those of the addressee, which are not white


> > at all yet. This is still general, though a human touch is introduced

It's far from 'general'. As usual, he has
in mind a particular person in particular
circumstances.

> > Line 8. The bier is a farm implement and the beard is the awn on an
> > ear of barley. But this line could go without change into the
> > description of a funeral: the bier

The word in the Quarto is 'beare', which
could be 'bier', but that does not necessarily
imply a funeral: OED 'bier' =
1. A framework for carrying; a handbarrow;
a litter, a stretcher. Obsolete exc. Hist.

'Beare' could ALSO be a number of other
things, including:
i) 'bere' = "Clamour, outcry, shouting, roaring;
the noise of voices of men or animals"
ii) 'birr' = 1. A strong wind; esp. one that carries
a vessel on. Obs.
2. The force of the wind, or of any moving body;
momentum, impetus; rush. to take or fetch
one's birr: to gather impetus for a leap by a
short run or 'ram-race.'
b. A charge in battle; an attack, a fight. Obs.
c. A thrust, a violent push or blow; also fig.
d. Bodily force exerted against anything, might.
e. Force of pronunciation, energetic utterance.

> > would be that which carries the
> > corpse, that of a Tudor gentleman, on his back with his short, neat,
> > pointed Tudor beard jutting upwards. I find this very powerful.

Shame that it's quite wrong then.
(Although I can't see what's 'powerful'
about the picture of an anonymous dead
Tudor gentleman.) The actual image is far
more powerful, and the person to whom the
poet is referring is far from dead, or being
a gentleman, or having a short, neat and
pointed beard.

> > Line 10, 'wastes of time'. Here is no 'sure and certain hope of a
> > glorious resurrection', as in the service for the Burial of the Dead.
> > Shakespeare shows the influence of the Prayer Book often, but he is
> > not a religious writer. Could he write like this if he were a
> > religious man?
> >
> > Line 11, 'themselves forsake'. Again, the word 'self' is used for the
> > essence of a thing, they cease to be what they were, they cease to be
> > 'sweets and beauties'.

That's too over-sophisticated an analysis.
Much easier is: there are (a) 'sweets', and
(b) 'beauties'; at one time (a) and (b) got
on quite happily together; now they don't.

13. And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence

> > Line 13, 'scythe'. Hard to see in the Quarto spelling, but not in any
> > doubt, because it recalls the scythe that did the reaping in lines
> > 7-8.

That's the usual ultimately dumbed-down
Stratfordian inanity. The Quarto spelling
is 'sieth'. 'Scythe' is _A_ likely meaning,
but the poet probably intended others as
well, including (i) 'sieve', (ii) 'sigh'. And the
case for (iii) 'sithe' OED (n1) seems to me to
be the strongest of all:

'Sithe' (from OED)
I. 1. A going, journey, path, way.
This sense is very common in OE. poetry.
2. Fortune on a journey; also generally, fortune, hap, luck.
b. Mishap, misfortune, trouble.
3. One's pilgrimage on earth; life-time; the course of one's life.
II. Time, occasion.
This is the only sense in which the word is recorded in Goth.
and OFris.; it is also found in OS., and is prominent in ON.
(also MSw. and MDa.). . . .
4. With cardinal numbers (or equivalent term), denoting
frequency of occurrence, etc.

> > Line 4, the text. The Quarto has "or silver'd ore". That has been
> > defended in two ways:
> > (a) The fur of the sable is brown and not black,

Very few Elizabethans (if any) would have
seen the fur of a sable (from East and
South Africa). The word always meant
'black' -- from its heraldic name.

> > and heraldically 'or'
> > means 'gold'. So we are talking about golden hair that is silvered
> > over, 'brown hair, gold turning silver'. But the sable is dark brown,
> > nothing like gold (so far as I have been able to find out): 'lustrous
> > dark brown' Chambers' Dictionary, 'brune et noirātre' Larousse s.v.
> > Zibeline. Heraldically, indeed, 'sable' means 'black'.

4. And sable curls or silver'd ore with white:

What is wrong with brute simplicity?
The poet might have written (say)
" . . . And sable curls or grey." meaning
that the curls were either black or grey.
Replace 'grey' with "silver'd ore with white"
and we get identical grammar.

> > (b) 'Or-silvered' could mean 'silvered with gold', gold sprinkling the
> > hair being used as a sign of old age. First, gold is not appropriate
> > for the job, and secondly, 'silvered with gold' is not good sense.
> > Katherine Duncan-Jones is right to dismiss all connections with gold
> > as 'unhelpful speculation'.

IMO the poet phrased it in that manner
to bring in 'or' (= 'gold') and silver because,
this man was tainted with greed (and
hypocrisy).

You've left out many interesting aspects
(as do all the Strat commentators).

3. When I behold the violet past prime,

When Shakespeare refers to 'violets' as
a personification, he invariably means
someone of a particular base origin or
standing -- violets growing close to the
ground.

5. When lofty trees I see barren of leaves,

The trees being 'barren of leaves' in line 5
is a reference to the 'tree of life' in the Book
of Revelation (the Apocalypse) 22:2. Shake-
speare also refers to this in the Tempest in
a more hopeful context, where he sees a
future of two kingdoms united in peace
(although he still has doubts about the
'brave new world'). In this sonnet, the poet
is much more pessimistic and sees no hope
of unity.

"A vision of the island' (5.1.178), Sebastian as 'a most high miracle' (5.1.180).
Both visions are exalted representations of political marriage that brings peace
on earth. In the New Jerusalem, 'the leaves of the tree served to heal the
nations' (22: 2) rent apart since Babel, and the nations walk freely through its
open gates (21: 25).
(Stephen Marx, *Shakespeare and the Bible*, page 141)


Paul.


Arindam Banerjee

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 17:51:0925-07-2004
aan
ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message news:<41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...

> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
> Stonehouse) wrote:
>
> >
> > 12
> ...
> >When I do count the clock that tells the time
> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,

Why must one massacre the original simply in order to "explain" it?
Shakespeare is such a perfect writer, he needs no elaboration. Just
deep understanding.

> >And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
> when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,

Horrible.

> >When I behold the violet past prime
> when I see flowers that are past their best

Ugh, ugh ugh. Ugly ugly ugly.

> >And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
> and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,

Pathetic.

No wonder there are so many fools who think that Shakespeare was not
Shakespeare, he was someone else! They just can't think straight,
have no understanding of language let alone poetry, and must needs
twist things to suit their paltry intellects.

Buffalo

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 22:31:1025-07-2004
aan

"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:4101f88...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

This sonnet hasn't had much praise so far, so I'll try to find some good
things about it. I was slightly drunk when I read it through on Friday
night, when it seemed to me to have a spaciousness and a sure-footed
progression that it lost on re-reading the next day. To begin with I
suspected my inebriated state of being too indulgent and non-critical, but
on repeated readings that original response came back to some extent. This
sonnet is better than it looks. Message-wise it says no more than any of its
predecessors - the same old song (get an heir,etc) but apparently without
the complexities and densities that made those earlier sonnets rewarding to
study in detail. But every Shakespeare sonnet has at least one line that
makes the whole thing worthwhile, and this one has at least two.

One thing that does bias me in its favour is its pastoral references. Though
I've never cut wheat, I've walked through wheatfields, and seen the "white
and bristly beard" that encloses the grains. It makes the whole field look
as if it's been dusted with white powder. I think the "bier" that he's
talking about is a kind of hurdle, that the sheaves of wheat are tied to,
and which is then pulled by a horse. I don't think it's a wheeled vehicle.
"Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard", doubling as an image of a
funeral, is a masterly touch. I also think the reaping image is re-evoked
in "That thou among the wastes of time must go" , which reminds me of the
barren and bleak look that a field has just after it's been cut. Obviously
also, "And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence" is back-reference
to the reaping image.

I almost hesitate to suggest it, because I often deride the fanatical
pun-hunters, but I'm wondering about a bit of possible word-play in the next
line:-

And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence

Save breed, to brave him when he takes thee hence.

Could we read "save bread"? That's a kind of "summer's distillation", isn't
it? It's wheat's offspring, and what makes it continue to live when the
reaper "takes thee hence".

There were summers in my late teens when I did work on a farm during that
season known as "haymaking". First you cut the hay and gather it into little
piles called "haycocks", separated by about ten feet or so, then you gather
the haycocks into larger stores, called "hayricks", and finally the hayricks
are amalgamated into "haystacks". Actually cutting the hay means using that
unwieldy implement, the scythe. Looking at it, you think it must be the most
clumsy implement ever devised, but when you've learned to use one you
appreciate the economy and subtlety of its design. Old-timers will stress
the importance of not trying to propel it with your arms - you'll wear
yourself out in no time. You must use your whole body, swinging it from side
to side, and allowing just the weight and momentum of the scythe to provide
all the force of the cutting. This back-and-forth motion must be absolutely
rhythmical to make the most efficient use of your muscle-power. And that's
why the motion of the parts of a clock becomes a natural parallel.

Shakespeare announces his clock in the first line, though at first glance it
seems to contain a redundant clause, as Lynne remarked - "When I do count
the clock that tells the time". Obviously a clock tells the time - why does
he have to say so? But that kind of meaning is not the only meaning here.
There is a sound-sense to this line which I think is quite marvellous.
Today, "tells the time" is what we say about a clock at any point in its
motion. But in those days "tell" had that extra meaning of bell-sound, as in
"tells the hour". The first half of the line with it's hard "c" sounds
evokes the steady tick. Tick-tock, count the clock. Then it sounds the hour
with softer "t" sounds. And "tells the time" rhymes with "bells" and
"chime". So we get click-clock, ting-ting. Love it.

What time of day are we talking about? The general view, aided by the sonnet
number, 12, is that it's midnight. But there are a few problems with that.
It doesn't seem to match up with the time of year that he dwells on later,
which is not winter but late summer or autumn. Translated into a time of
day, it might be around sunset. Paradoxically, that can be supported by the
fact that the third, fourth and fifth lines are problematic.

When I behold the violet past prime,

And sable curls all silver'd o'er with white;
When lofty trees I see barren of leaves


We have a line that apparently refers to human hair sandwiched between two
lines that are about flowers or trees. It seems out of place. We also have
the problem of the apparent misprint. The original reads "or silver'd ore",
and the popular translation is the one Robert has given us: "all silverer'd
o'er". I think I prefer to leave the original untouched, because I have a
feeling that it might not be a misprint. With "ore" meaning gold, it might
be that this is Shakespeare at his most Hopkins-like, doing violence to the
language in order to convey a somewhat blurred sensation of colouring. If we
were to take "violet past prime" as the colour of the sky when the sun sinks
below the horizon, and "sable curls" as those trails of cloud that look
almost black against the vivid background, and add some splashes of silver,
gold and white as the sinking sun catches their underside, we would have an
impressionistic sunset.

There are problems with it, of course. Line two, for instance: "And see the
brave day sunk in hideous night", which suggests we are well past sunset.
Still...

And, just to finish off, there's always a line that catches your fancy, and
you don't always know why:-

Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,

It's got a sensible sense, which is that on really hot days you can see
cattle and sheep migrating to the edges of an enclosed pasture to get the
benefit of the shade. But I don't think the sensible sense is why I like it.
I just like the sound, I think.

Buffalo


Gary Kosinsky

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 22:35:1425-07-2004
aan
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:40:03 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid
(Robert Stonehouse) wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
>Stonehouse) wrote:

>>Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
>because dear and beautiful things must lose their nature

Obviously beautiful things over time will lose their
nature. I'm not so sure about sweet things.

In any event, once again the phraseology is unusual
in regards to a young man. One gets the idea that the
addressee must have been fairly effeminate. Or perhaps the
speaker was. Or perhaps the speaker is supposed to be a
woman.

- Gary Kosinsky

Gary Kosinsky

ongelezen,
25 jul. 2004 22:35:1625-07-2004
aan
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:43 -0400, "LynnE"
<lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far. Don't know if anyone
>else agrees. Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.

Let's hope so.


- Gary Kosinsky

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
26 jul. 2004 12:56:3226-07-2004
aan
On 25 Jul 2004 14:51:09 -0700, adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee)
wrote:

>ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message news:<41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...
>> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
>> Stonehouse) wrote:
>>
>> > 12
>> ...
>> >When I do count the clock that tells the time
>> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,
>
>Why must one massacre the original simply in order to "explain" it?
>Shakespeare is such a perfect writer, he needs no elaboration. Just
>deep understanding.

Don't read my paraphrases if they make you uncomfortable!

I personally find the sonnets very difficult and in need of
explanation. So it seems fair to make the results of my efforts (such
as they are) available. The point of a paraphrase is that it commits
me in detail to a particular view on each word and line, and also on
the poem as a whole, much more briefly than could be done by writing
notes.

It is not the point to explain or demonstrate the beauty of the poems.
That is Shakespeare's business; suppose he can't succeed, what am I to
do? So I go for explicitness in the paraphrase and leave the beauty to
him.


>
>> >And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
>> when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,
>
>Horrible.
>
>> >When I behold the violet past prime
>> when I see flowers that are past their best
>
>Ugh, ugh ugh. Ugly ugly ugly.
>
>> >And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
>> and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,
>
>Pathetic.
>
>No wonder there are so many fools who think that Shakespeare was not
>Shakespeare, he was someone else! They just can't think straight,
>have no understanding of language let alone poetry, and must needs
>twist things to suit their paltry intellects.

The language is difficult and that is a thing I do try to help with.
If you think I have got something wrong, explain!

David L. Webb

ongelezen,
26 jul. 2004 14:25:5326-07-2004
aan
In article <890e65ea.0407...@posting.google.com>,
adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee) wrote:

> ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message
> news:<41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...
> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
> > Stonehouse) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 12
> > ...
> > >When I do count the clock that tells the time
> > When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,

> Why must one massacre the original simply in order to "explain" it?

For one thing, the sense of some of the words and phrases in many of
the sonnets is in some dispute; haven't you read the exchanges here? It
seems to me that Robert Stonehouse should be applauded for his attempts
to paraphrase the sonnets and stimulate discussion of them -- indeed,
such paraphrases often induce other readers to rethink their own
interpretations.

> Shakespeare is such a perfect writer, he needs no elaboration.

The language has changed some in the last four hundred years; perhaps
you had not noticed.

> Just
> deep understanding.

> > >And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,

> > when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,

> Horrible.

What do you think is wrong with the paraphrase? It is not meant to
be poetry.



> > >When I behold the violet past prime

> > when I see flowers that are past their best

> Ugh, ugh ugh. Ugly ugly ugly.

Once again, the paraphrase was not meant to be poetry, and certainly
not to supersede the original text. Do you object to translations also?

> > >And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white;
4
> > and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,

> Pathetic.
>
> No wonder there are so many fools who think that Shakespeare was not
> Shakespeare, he was someone else!

Robert Stonehouse has never shown the slightest indication of such
beliefs; indeed, he has graciously -- and no doubt wisely -- steered
clear of the authorship "question."

> They just can't think straight,
> have no understanding of language let alone poetry, and must needs
> twist things to suit their paltry intellects.

No doubt they're racists to boot.

Neil Brennen

ongelezen,
26 jul. 2004 18:31:4426-07-2004
aan

"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
news:david.l.webb-3BF9...@merrimack.dartmouth.edu...

Is that what his perpetual-motion machine tells him?

(ducking)


Bericht is verwijderd
Bericht is verwijderd

LynnE

ongelezen,
26 jul. 2004 22:16:4726-07-2004
aan

"Jim KQKnave" <kqk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:716b251.04072...@posting.google.com...

> "LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<koyMc.46140$Gf7.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> According to the OED, a "clock" can be:
>
> a bell - "The clockes of Saynt Steven...had a merveylous
> sweetenes in theyr sowne." (Caxton, 1483)

This actually makes sense as an alternative reading if it was still in use
at the time. Thanks, Jim. Talking about bells telling the time, when I was
researching my Acadian novel, I found out that poor folk in 17th and 18th
century Acadia didn't have clocks but knew the approximate time by listening
for matins bells, etc. They also used the rosary to time tasks. For example,
one knew how long one should stir a particular mixture by saying three Hail
Marys. Every reference to this method of calculating time was taken out of
my book as it was considered too clumsy. One can only stand still for a
moment. Never for the space of two Glory Bes. :(

>
> the core of an apple - "Take a good apple...peele him, and
> cut out the clockes thereof." (A.M. tr. "Gabelhouer's Bk. Physike",
> 1599).
>
> an ornamental pattern in silk thread worked on the side
> of a stocking - "Nether-stocks...knit with open seam down
> the leg, with quirks and clocks about the ancles." (Stubbes, 1583).
>
> a name for any kind of beetle - "Dimd the ayre with...flies,
> grasshoppers, hornets, clegs and clocks". (T. Hudson, 1584).


>
>
> > I find this stylistically the poorest sonnet so far. Don't know if
anyone
> > else agrees. Perhaps he's getting tired of his subject.
>

> See my demolition of Monsarrat's RES paper!
> http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/monsarr1.html
>
> The Droeshout portrait is not unusual at all!
> http://hometown.aol.com/kqknave/shakenbake.html
>
> Agent Jim


Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
27 jul. 2004 13:13:3927-07-2004
aan
"Jim KQKnave" <kqk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:716b251.04072...@posting.google.com...

> > > Line 1, 'count the clock'. We do not count when we can see it: a


> > > glance is enough. We count when we hear it strike, which in the dark
> > > (line 2) is our only resource. The clock strikes up to twelve times,
> > > not (e.g.) twenty four. So it cannot be a coincidence that this is
> > > sonnet number 12. It is a midnight poem.
> >
> > This is a very minor point, but why does he add "that tells the time" after
> > "count the clock"? Everyone knows that a clock tells the time. Is it just
> > very poor poetry to fill out the line, or is he suggesting that in another
> > context a clock could mean something else?
>

> According to the OED, a "clock" can be:
>
> a bell - "The clockes of Saynt Steven...had a merveylous
> sweetenes in theyr sowne." (Caxton, 1483)
>

> the core of an apple - "Take a good apple...peele him, and
> cut out the clockes thereof." (A.M. tr. "Gabelhouer's Bk. Physike",
> 1599).
>
> an ornamental pattern in silk thread worked on the side
> of a stocking - "Nether-stocks...knit with open seam down
> the leg, with quirks and clocks about the ancles." (Stubbes, 1583).
>
> a name for any kind of beetle - "Dimd the ayre with...flies,
> grasshoppers, hornets, clegs and clocks". (T. Hudson, 1584).

Well done. A faint glimmer of light appears
in Stratfordia!

However, you missed the fact that 'cloak' was
often spelled (and presumably pronounced)
in the same way as 'clock'. That enables the
use of:
'Cloak'/ 'Clock'
2. a. An academical or clerical gown; particularly the Geneva
gown. Obs. or arch.
b. Hence contemptuously for: A Presbyterian or Independent
minister; puritanism. Obs.
(We know how our poet felt about puritans.)

Further 'count' has/had other useful senses (from OED)
3. To esteem, account, reckon, consider, regard, hold (a thing) to
be (so and so). a. with obj. and compl.; = account v. 6a.
4. To reckon, estimate, esteem (at such a price or value); to esteem,
value, hold of account (obs.).
5. To reckon or impute to, put down to the account of. Obs.
6. To tell, relate, recount. Obs.

So, if you can work out to whom the poet
is contemptuously referring -- whose
description and character fit in with the
rest of the sonnet -- you will see what it's
about. Otherwise, you are wasting your
time.


Paul.

Paul.

Tom Reedy

ongelezen,
27 jul. 2004 13:47:2927-07-2004
aan
"Paul Crowley" <slkwuoiut...@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote in message
news:54wNc.5620$Z14....@news.indigo.ie...

And you missed the fact that the True Author is obviously punning on "cock,"
with "clock" being only one letter away.

> 2. a. An academical or clerical gown; particularly the Geneva
> gown. Obs. or arch.
> b. Hence contemptuously for: A Presbyterian or Independent
> minister; puritanism. Obs.
> (We know how our poet felt about puritans.)
>
> Further 'count' has/had other useful senses (from OED)

It makes no difference how many "useful senses" the word has. When the True
Author used the word, it always means "cunt." So he is saying, obviously to
those not blinded by puritanical academic Strafordian delusions, "When I
cunt the cock."

I would have thought you, of all people, would have known this.

TR

Gary Kosinsky

ongelezen,
27 jul. 2004 14:34:5027-07-2004
aan
On 26 Jul 2004 16:07:21 -0700, kqk...@yahoo.co.uk (Jim
KQKnave) wrote:

>gk...@vcn.bc.ca (Gary Kosinsky) wrote in message news:<41046d89...@news.individual.net>...

>Or that men addressed each other then in a manner quite different
>from today:

True. But did they address each other in the manner
in which Shakespeare writes in sonnet after sonnet? This is
a key question in understanding what is going on in these
things, I do believe. And I still haven't come to a firm
conclusion.


>John Donne in a letter to Sir Henry Wotton:
>
>"Sir, more than kisses, letters mingle souls."

I don't think this example has any applicability at
all to Shakespeare's sonnets. Donne is making a general
observation about letters, which may or may not be true.


>Or this one to Mr. Rowland Woodward:
>
>"...And with vaine outward things be no more moved,
>But to know, that I loved thee and would be loved."

Again, I don't think this one line has much in
common with the various sentiments repeatedly expressed in
the sonnets.

>
>or these poems written also to his friends Rowland Woodward
>and Thomas Woodward:
>
>If, as mine is, thy life a slumber be,
>Seem, when thou read'st these lines, to dream of me,
>Never did Morpheus nor his brother wear
>Shapes so like those shapes, whom they would appear,
>As this my letter is like me, for it
>Hath my name, words, hand, feet, heart, mind and wit;
>It is my deed of gift of me to thee,
>It is my will, my self the legacy.
>So thy retirings I love, yea envy,
>Bred in thee by a wise melancholy,
>That I rejoice, that unto where thou art,
>Though I stay here, I can thus send my heart,
>As kindly as any enamored patient,
>His picture to his absent love has sent.
>
>Pregnant again with th'old twins hope, and fear,
>Oft have I asked for thee, both how and where
>Thou wert, and what my hopes of letters were;
>As in the streets sly beggars narrowly
>Watch motions of the givers hand and eye,
>And evermore conceive some hope thereby.
>And now thy almes is given, thy letter's read,
>The body risen again, the which was dead,
>And thy poor starveling bountifully fed.
>After this banquet my soul doth say grace,
>And praise thee for it, and zealously embrace
>Thy love, though I think thy love in this case
>To be as gluttons, which say midst their meat,
>They love the best of which the most do eat.
>
>Haste thee harsh verse as fast as thy lame measure
>Will give thee leave, to him; my pain and pleasure.
>I have given thee, and yet thou art too weak,
>Feet, and a reasoning soule and tongue to speak.
>Plead for me, and so by thine and my labor
>I am thy Creator, thou my Saviour.
>Tell him, all questions, which men have defended
>Both of the place and paines of hell, are ended;
>And tis decreed our hell is but privation
>Of him, at least in earth's habitation:
>And tis where I am, where in every street
>Infections follow, overtake and meet.
>Live I or die, by you my love is sent,
>And you are my pawns, or else my testament.
>==================================

Okay, this example is a much better demonstration of
the emotional nature and intensity that also appears in the
sonnets. And so I wonder about the relationship between
Donne and the Woodward brothers. On the other hand, it may
be one example that supports your position.
>
>Or how about Ben Jonson's dedication of Poetaster:
>
> "To My Worthy Friend,
>Mr. Richard Martin:
>...Enjoy now the delight of your goodness, which is to
>see that prosper, you preserved; and posterity to owe
>the reading of that, without offence, to your name,
>which so much ignorance and malice of the times then
>conspired to have suppressed.
> Your true lover,
> Ben Jonson"

All this shows is that one word, "lover", had a
broader usage in Elizabethan times than it does now. (BTW:
did you know that the word "lover" is only used once in the
sonnets - in Sonnet 32?) Shakespeare's poems to the
addressee involve much more than the use of this one word.

>This example is from Jonson's EMIHH:
>(This was the original version that Jonson wrote, set in Florence.
>The names and some of the text were re-written to give the more
>familiar version. This is the scene where in the revised version
>Old Knowell reads the letter his son wrote to his friend Wellbred
>(Lorenzo in this version)):
>
>Every Man in His Humour:
>Act 1 sc 2:
>
>"Sirrah, sweet villain, come and see me; but spend one
>minute in my company, and it is enough: I think I have a world of
>good jests for thee: o sirrah, I can shew thee two of the most
>perfect, rare, and absolute true Gulls, that ever
>thou saw'st, if thou wilt come. S'blood, invent some famous
>memorable lie, or other, to flap thy father in the mouth withal:
>thou hast been father of a thousand, in thy days,
>thou could'st be no Poet else: any scurvy roguish excuse will serve;
>say thou com'st but to fetch wool for thine Ink-horn. And then
>too, thy Father will say thy wits are a wool-gathering. But it is
>no matter; the worse, the better. Anything is good enough for
>the old man. Sirrah, how if thy Father should see this now? what
>would he think of me? Well, (however I write to thee) I reverence
>him in my soul, for the general good all Florence delivers of him.
>Lorenzo, I conjure thee (by what, let me see) by the depth of
>our love, by all the strange sights we have seen in our dayes,
>(aye or nights either) to come to me to Florence this day."
>============================================

Again, I don't think this passage has any
applicability at all to our discussion. There is one word,
"love", in it. So what?

>And then there are the fruity sonnets of Richard
>Barnfield (1595). Note carefully Shakespeare's and Donne's
>use of terms of love with regard to their male friendships,
>and see the difference between them and Barnfield's
>physical desire:
>
>Barnfield Sonnet 8:
>
>Sometimes I wish that I his pillow were,
>So might I steal a kiss, and yet not seen,
>So might I gaze upon his sleeping eine,
>Although I did it with a panting fear.
>But when I well consider how vaine my wish is,
>Ah foolish bees (think I) that do not suck
>His lips for honey, but poor flowers do pluck
>Which have no sweet in them, when his sole kisses
>Are able to revive a dying soul.
>Kiss him, but sting him not, for if you do,
>His angry voice your flying will pursue.
>But when they hear his tongue, what can control
>Their back return? For then they plain may see,
>How honeycombs from his lips dropping be.
>
>Barnfield sonnet 17
>
>Cherry-lipped Adonis in his snowy shape,
>Might not compare with his pure ivory white,
>On whose fair front a poet's pen may write,
>Whose rosiate red excels the crimson grape,
>His love-enticing delicate soft limbs,
>And rarely framed t'intrap poor gazing eyes.
>His cheeks, the lily and carnation dies,
>With lovely tincture which Apollo dims.
>His lips ripe strawberries in nectar wet,
>His mouth a hive, his tongue a honeycomb,
>Where Muses (like Bees) make their mansion.
>His teeth pure pearl in blushing coral set.
>Oh how can such a body sin-procuring,
>Be slow to love, and quick to hate, enduring?

I would agree that Barnfield's sonnets are more
explicitly homosexual in tone than are Shakespeare's. That
doesn't mean that Shakespeare's are not - he may have simply
toned it down a bit, at least compared to Barnfield.

- Gary Kosinsky

biancas842001

ongelezen,
27 jul. 2004 18:40:0127-07-2004
aan
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote:

>> When I do count the clock that tells the time
> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,

My own instinct would be to suggest this reading ("chimes" replacing
"clock"), but it seems not required by the words of the poem, judging
from the consensus view.

>> And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
> when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,

I would suggest this isn't a hatred of black people, but the natural
fear of most people, of the night.

>> And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
> and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,

Do you have split ends in mind? I envisioned white hairs mixed in
with the black.

>> Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8
> and carried on a hurdle, its beard now white and bristling,

The only meaning I know for "hurdle" is the thing jumped over at track
and field meets.

>> And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
> and nothing can protect you against that reaper, Time,
>> Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.
> except descendants, who will defy him when he comes to take you away.

Why do you personalize these last two lines, which seem obviously to
be general statements about all people? The last clause does mention
"thee," but this seems to be an example, if not the generic "you" (if
this "you" was used in Shakespeare's time, though as far as I know
it's an American-only usage and always has been). I.e., (You should
consider,) Nobody can defend himself or herself against the Grim
Reaper, unless they have children to fortify them. Where, you have,
You cannot defend yourself, etc., which I think unnecessary.

----
Bianca S.

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
28 jul. 2004 14:57:4328-07-2004
aan
On 27 Jul 2004 15:40:01 -0700, bianca...@yahoo.com (biancas842001)
wrote:

>"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> When I do count the clock that tells the time
>> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,
>
>My own instinct would be to suggest this reading ("chimes" replacing
>"clock"), but it seems not required by the words of the poem, judging
>from the consensus view.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting emending the text! (As 'reading'
might make it seem.) There is nothing startling or unorthdox in
understanding this line as about chimes, though it is not universal,
since Helen Vendler has "aurally and visually ticking".

But all the others are on my side:
Duncan-Jones "hear, and count, the chimes made by the clock"
Kerrigan "add up (what the clock strikes)"
Burrow "count the strokes of the clock"
Ingram and Redpath "The clock is striking the time well into the
night"
Blakemore Evans "number the strokes"
Booth "count the strokes of".


>
>>> And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
>> when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,
>
>I would suggest this isn't a hatred of black people, but the natural
>fear of most people, of the night.

Nothing at all to do with black people!


>
>>> And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
>> and dark curly hair with all the ends turned white,
>
>Do you have split ends in mind? I envisioned white hairs mixed in
>with the black.

I think of hair that is sprinkled with white on the surface, that is,
at the ends of the individual hairs.


>
>>> Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8
>> and carried on a hurdle, its beard now white and bristling,
>
>The only meaning I know for "hurdle" is the thing jumped over at track
>and field meets.

I mean a portable frame used for temporary fences and gates,
originally made by weaving together willow wattles. It isn't quite
right, because a 'bier' would have four legs to stand on (I think),
but there are not a lot of words for this kind of thing in general use
nowadays. I rejected 'stretcher' as too human-oriented.


>
>>> And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
>> and nothing can protect you against that reaper, Time,
>>> Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.
>> except descendants, who will defy him when he comes to take you away.
>
>Why do you personalize these last two lines, which seem obviously to
>be general statements about all people? The last clause does mention
>"thee," but this seems to be an example, if not the generic "you" (if
>this "you" was used in Shakespeare's time, though as far as I know
>it's an American-only usage and always has been). I.e., (You should
>consider,) Nobody can defend himself or herself against the Grim
>Reaper, unless they have children to fortify them. Where, you have,
>You cannot defend yourself, etc., which I think unnecessary.

All the urging to marry etc. is very personal, isn't it? And 'thee' is
the next to last word in the poem - a personal address. The style of
the sonnets is very abstract and generalising, but in these two lines
I think the meaning is personal.

Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
28 jul. 2004 16:25:4728-07-2004
aan
"Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RywNc.330$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> > However, you missed the fact that 'cloak' was
> > often spelled (and presumably pronounced)
> > in the same way as 'clock'. That enables the
> > use of:
> > 'Cloak'/ 'Clock'
>
> And you missed the fact that the True Author is obviously punning on "cock,"
> with "clock" being only one letter away.

Sorry, does not fit the rest of the sonnet.

> > 2. a. An academical or clerical gown; particularly the Geneva
> > gown. Obs. or arch.
> > b. Hence contemptuously for: A Presbyterian or Independent
> > minister; puritanism. Obs.
> > (We know how our poet felt about puritans.)
> >
> > Further 'count' has/had other useful senses (from OED)
>
> It makes no difference how many "useful senses" the word has. When the True
> Author used the word, it always means "cunt." So he is saying, obviously to
> those not blinded by puritanical academic Strafordian delusions, "When I
> cunt the cock."

Almost right. But it does not fit the
grammar. In fact, he 'cunts' the cloke
-- in the sense that he regularly calls
him a 'cunt'.

1. When I doe count the clock that tels the time,
2. And see the brave day sunck in hidious night,
3. When I behold the violet past prime,
4. And sable curls or silver'd ore with white:

> I would have thought you, of all people, would have known this.
>
> TR

See -- the policy of posting 'teasers'
works. If I had posted my complete
exegesis, you'd have felt much too
intimidated -- as has always been the
case up to now.


Paul.

LynnE

ongelezen,
28 jul. 2004 16:56:0728-07-2004
aan

"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:4101f88...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

I said I liked this sonnet least, stylistically speaking, of those we've
studied, and everyone (or almost everyone) disagreed with me. So then I had
to look at it and decide why. (Note to Paul--style does not of necessity
have anything to do with meaning).

First, I find the first eight lines so tired that if someone told me they
weren't Shakespeare I wouldn't have difficulty believing it. There are a
number of reasons:

First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:

De duh de duh de duh de duh de duh.

This is iambic pentameter with a vengeance. Not all the lines are like this,
of course, but the first is a real clanker.

Second, there are too many lines that have the feeling of being REALLY
end-stopped. I guess what I mean is that in addition to the punctuation
there is often one thought to a line so what we have is a shopping list.
Sorry if I'm not being clear, but take lines one to five, for example:

1. clock
2. day/night
3. violet
4. hair (?)
5. trees

Third, the descriptions are stale and far from Shakespeare's best. Here are
a few:

clock that tells the time

brave day
hideous night
violet past prime
lofty trees
summer's green, etc.

The alliteration is overdone too:

count the clock, tells the time (Jeez, twice in one line)
greene all girded vp
Borne on the beare with...bristly beard,
breed to braue, etc. (This is a bit of a cheat, because it's not in the
first eight lines.

There are also some "filler" words. I believe I mentioned "tells the time"
before. I'd also add a couple of "do's" and conjunctions and...and...and ;)

I almost feel this might be a much earlier effort tacked onto the last six
lines, which are back on the marriage trail again.

Anyhow, this is why I'm not impressed with the sonnet. I wish Terry would
join the discussion. He'd tell me why I should be.

Best wishes,
Lynne

LynnE

ongelezen,
28 jul. 2004 16:57:4128-07-2004
aan
Did I mean "clunker"? Never mind.

"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:IpUNc.14738$BU4.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...

bookburn

ongelezen,
28 jul. 2004 22:34:5028-07-2004
aan

My reading of the sonnet this time finds the surface argument straight
forward with few troubling nuances to account for in arriving at a
rather conventional, if macabre statement of the human condition,
easily following the sonnet form of development. But a reader of the
poet's landscape detects a rather deliberate and obvious counter-point
in the aesthetics of beauty.

| When I do count the clock that tells the time
| And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
| When I behold the violet past prime
| And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white;

I find that the first person point of view and repeated use of "when"
invites the reader to share a subjunctive mood, and the "count," as in
Time's scythe and meter and rime scheme, seems to order the experience
anew with sensory details of "hideous night." It's something of an
irony that the poet bases an aesthetic of beauty on Nature in its
"past prime," which seems contrary to the theme of beauty perpetuated
while young. He says its hideous, but it isn't; more like the
opposite.

4
| When lofty trees I see barren of leaves
| Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,
| And summer's green all girded up in sheaves
| Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8

More details of Nature past prime and funeral imagery support what I
think of as Gothic romanticism celebrating the gloomy, mysterious, and
even grotesque; e.g., "lofty trees I see barren of leaves": a motif
repeated in his best poetry, such as comparing trees in winter to
"bare ruined choirs." An aesthetic of melancholia, if you will.

| Then of thy beauty do I question make
| That thou among the wastes of time must go,
| Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
| And die as fast as they see others grow;

When he says, "of thy beauty do I question make," I assume the persona
of the philosophical spectator comes into focus. Don't know how we
can read "among the wastes of time" without imaging the ruines of time
and other wasteland scenarios, which I think of as literary treatment
of philosophy.

Special question about the use of "sweets and beauties," because I
don't see a context for "sweets" here, except in neoPlatonism, where
sweetness and light are characteristic of beauty and truth; the bee
makes sweet honey from the light, etc..

12
| And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
| Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.

So when the poet says, "nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make
defense," I would assert that he knows very well he has just described
the beauty of a "past prime" Nature and makes its celebration part of
his poetic immortality: the other defense against Death he claims in
the sequence. Another logical problem in the conclusion is that
"breed" makes only a "brave" (forthright but failing) defense against
Death. Note the repeat of "brave" from l.2.

bookburn


Bericht is verwijderd

Peter Farey

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 02:44:4629-07-2004
aan

"LynnE" wrote:

<snip>

> First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:
>
> De duh de duh de duh de duh de duh.
>
> This is iambic pentameter with a vengeance. Not all
> the lines are like this, of course, but the first is
> a real clanker.

"He waits. That's what he does. And I'll tell you
what: tick followed tock followed tick followed
tock followed tick..."


Peter F.
pet...@rey.prestel.co.uk
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm


Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 07:45:5229-07-2004
aan
"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:IpUNc.14738$BU4.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...

1. When I doe count the clock that tels the time,


2. And see the brave day sunck in hidious night,
3. When I behold the violet past prime,
4. And sable curls or silver'd ore with white:

5. When lofty trees I see barren of leaves,
6. Which erst from heat did canopie the herd
7. And Sommers greene all girded up in sheaves
8. Borne on the beare with white and bristly beard:
9. Then of thy beauty do I question make
10. That thou among the wastes of time must goe,
11. Since sweets and beauties do them-selves forsake,
12. And die as fast as they see others grow,
13. And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence
14. Save breed to brave him, when he takes thee hence.

> I said I liked this sonnet least, stylistically speaking, of those we've
> studied, and everyone (or almost everyone) disagreed with me. So then I had
> to look at it and decide why.

> Note to Paul--style does not of necessity


> have anything to do with meaning).

What nonsense! Of course it does.
Or -- to put it another way -- if you don't
understand the meaning, you have no
business discussing the style. You can
probably think of dozens of examples of
people completely misunderstanding the
meaning of something. Can you give a
single instance where those people were
in a position to make sensible judgements
about the author's style?

Of course, you can't. And neither will
any one else around here.

It's roughly akin to hearing someone
talking in a foreign language. You might
be able to comment on aspects of their
tone, or pick up their mood, but you'd
not get much more than that.

We've all had the experience of having a
serious misunderstanding of the meaning
of a statement or a passage (or a complete
failure to grasp the sense of the text). We
might have made some judgements on the
style. But when we learn the true meaning,
we have to scrap every one of those judge-
ments, and re-assess the whole thing from
scratch.

> First, I find the first eight lines so tired that if someone told me they
> weren't Shakespeare I wouldn't have difficulty believing it. There are a
> number of reasons:
>
> First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:

All this is pointless nonsense. It's as
though you were criticising a Beethoven
symphony because you expected it to
be syncopated jazz (or vice versa).

> Third, the descriptions are stale and far from Shakespeare's best. Here are
> a few:
>
> clock that tells the time
> brave day
> hideous night
> violet past prime
> lofty trees
> summer's green, etc.

Since you have not the faintest idea what
they are descriptions OF (insofar as they
can be regarded as 'descriptions' at all)
you criticism is pure nonsense.

> count the clock, tells the time (Jeez, twice in one line)
> greene all girded vp
> Borne on the beare with...bristly beard,
> breed to braue, etc. (This is a bit of a cheat, because it's not in the
> first eight lines.
>
> There are also some "filler" words. I believe I mentioned "tells the time"

Shakespeare just does NOT do 'filler'
words -- or certainly not in sonnets.

Why don't you just admit to yourself
that you have not got the beginnings
of a clue as to what this sonnet is about?

That's what all the so-called 'scholars'
should have done -- long ago. But,
at least, they are paid to lie.

> before. I'd also add a couple of "do's" and conjunctions and...and...and ;)
>
> I almost feel this might be a much earlier effort tacked onto the last six
> lines, which are back on the marriage trail again.
>
> Anyhow, this is why I'm not impressed with the sonnet. I wish Terry would
> join the discussion. He'd tell me why I should be.

Terry has more sense. He has some
awareness that he knows absolutely
nothing in this field. He is usually very
careful in picking the tiny little patches
of expertise on which he can make a
stand.


Paul.


LynnE

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 08:24:2429-07-2004
aan

"Paul Crowley" <slkwuoiut...@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote in message
news:Ns5Oc.5730$Z14....@news.indigo.ie...

Terry has more knowledge of Elizabethan poetry in his little finger than
(fill in the blanks).

Best wishes,
Lynne
>
>
> Paul.
>
>


Tom Reedy

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 09:38:3629-07-2004
aan

> "Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4101f88...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

<snip>

> Then of thy beauty do I question make
> That thou among the wastes of time must goe,

My memory is hazy, but didn't someone criticize Oxford for doing the same
type of inversions in his "Were I a king" poem as Shakespeare is doing here?

TR


Neil Brennen

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 10:33:5929-07-2004
aan

"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:d06Oc.267$pc.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...

>
> "Paul Crowley" <slkwuoiut...@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote in message
> news:Ns5Oc.5730$Z14....@news.indigo.ie...
> > "LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:IpUNc.14738$BU4.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...

> > > Note to Paul--style does not of necessity

I hate to say it, but I partly agree with Paul here.

> > > First, I find the first eight lines so tired that if someone told me
> they
> > > weren't Shakespeare I wouldn't have difficulty believing it. There are
a
> > > number of reasons:
> > >
> > > First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:
> >
> > All this is pointless nonsense. It's as
> > though you were criticising a Beethoven
> > symphony because you expected it to
> > be syncopated jazz (or vice versa).

However, things are back to normal now that Crowley has made such an absurd
statement. Is it normal for a Shakespeare sonnet to have plodding rhythm?
Paul's comment implies it is. (Please note I don't agree with Lynne's
assessment of the sonnet, I'm just taking her point for argument's sake.

(Snip Crowley's usual inane anal-ysis.)


Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 13:34:2229-07-2004
aan
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:56:07 -0400, "LynnE"
<lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
>news:4101f88...@news.cityscape.co.uk...
>>
>> 12
...

>> When I do count the clock that tells the time
>> And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
>> When I behold the violet past prime
>> And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
>> When lofty trees I see barren of leaves
>> Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,
>> And summer's green all girded up in sheaves
>> Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8
>> Then of thy beauty do I question make
>> That thou among the wastes of time must go,
>> Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
>> And die as fast as they see others grow; 12
>> And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
>> Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.
>
>I said I liked this sonnet least, stylistically speaking, of those we've
>studied, and everyone (or almost everyone) disagreed with me. So then I had
>to look at it and decide why. (Note to Paul--style does not of necessity
>have anything to do with meaning).
>
>First, I find the first eight lines so tired that if someone told me they
>weren't Shakespeare I wouldn't have difficulty believing it.

After reading Helen Vendler's four pages, I can't reasonably summarise
them, but I'll borrow some ideas here and there. She points out two
models of time and death in the poem. "The first is the gradually
vanishing conceptual entity registered by the poem's aurally and
visually ticking clock ... The second model is represented by the
aggressive emblem-figure of Time with his scythe." "The innocence of
the first death-model accounts for the elegiac submission that
characterizes the first twelve lines of the poem. The extraordinary
poignancy of these lines arises from the list of intransitively fading
_beauties_ (the brave day, the violet, sable curls, summer's green)."

I see the elaborate alliterative scheme in the first eight lines as
contributing to the first of these death-themes.The alliteration is
not any kind of accident or mistake - it's meant to affect us in a
particular way. So we have
1. count-clock, tells-time (all stressed words to establish the point)
2. see-sunk (but the main stresses are 'brave day' and 'hideous
night')
3. past-prime (but the assonance of 'behold-violet'is more important)
4. sable-silvered, with-white
5. lofty-leaves
6. heat-herd
7. summer-sheaves, green-girded (chiastic arrangement, working up to
the climax)
8. borne-bier, with-white(cf.4), bristly-beard (the limit, a kind of
half-double chiasmus involving six of the nine words, the last two
alliterating with the first two).

One thing this does is to slow down our reading - at least, if we read
aloud. To enunciate clearly, we have to speak it slowly; I see the
effect as ominous, not purely elegiac and innocent. The old-style
effect also adds to the solemnity. Here I was lately sayingShakespeare
does not do this! But I did say he could use anything.

>There are a number of reasons:
>
>First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:
>
>De duh de duh de duh de duh de duh.
>
>This is iambic pentameter with a vengeance. Not all the lines are like this,
>of course, but the first is a real clanker.

A single regular line - is that a problem? It works very well in
establshing the atmosphere of the poem. And it's followed immediately
by a line where the alliterated words (see-sunk) are only about
half-stressed, despite their position in the verse, and the heavy
stress falls on 'brave day', two long (very long) syllables. Then in
line 3 the word 'violet' ends in two unstressed syllables, made up for
by stressing both the alliterated words (past-prime) at the end of the
line.


>
>Second, there are too many lines that have the feeling of being REALLY
>end-stopped. I guess what I mean is that in addition to the punctuation
>there is often one thought to a line so what we have is a shopping list.
>Sorry if I'm not being clear, but take lines one to five, for example:
>
>1. clock
>2. day/night
>3. violet
>4. hair (?)
>5. trees

Is it exactly so? Lines 1-2 make one thought, 3 and 4 one each, 5-6
one together, 7-8 one together. And this is the place for a list: the
list of beauties I quoted from Helen Vendler above.


>
>Third, the descriptions are stale and far from Shakespeare's best. Here are
>a few:
>
>clock that tells the time

I still thinks this means "tells me it is midnight". But nobody much
seems to agree!
>brave day
>hideous night
The contrast is the point here, made in sound as well as meaning.


>violet past prime
>lofty trees

Look down, at the lowly violet. Look up, at the tall trees.
>summer's green, etc.
The really odd thing about this is that he is praising the green
barley (I still contend the 'beard' means it's barley) when it is the
ripe and golden grain that normally gets the attention. He has stood
the harvest comparison on its head.


>
>The alliteration is overdone too:
>
>count the clock, tells the time (Jeez, twice in one line)
>greene all girded vp
>Borne on the beare with...bristly beard,
>breed to braue, etc. (This is a bit of a cheat, because it's not in the
>first eight lines.
>
>There are also some "filler" words. I believe I mentioned "tells the time"
>before. I'd also add a couple of "do's" and conjunctions and...and...and ;)
>
>I almost feel this might be a much earlier effort tacked onto the last six
>lines, which are back on the marriage trail again.
>
>Anyhow, this is why I'm not impressed with the sonnet. I wish Terry would
>join the discussion. He'd tell me why I should be.

Me, I try to avoid going on about what a good poem it is, but here is
an example of rushing in where angels fear to tread!

Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 15:54:4529-07-2004
aan
"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:d06Oc.267$pc.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...

> > Terry has more sense. He has some
> > awareness that he knows absolutely
> > nothing in this field. He is usually very
> > careful in picking the tiny little patches
> > of expertise on which he can make a
> > stand.
>
> Terry has more knowledge of Elizabethan poetry in his little finger than
> (fill in the blanks).

How come there is no answer to all the
points I made? Or shall I take it that
you concede the lot?

> Terry has more knowledge of Elizabethan poetry in his little finger than
> (fill in the blanks).

Yeah, yeah. Is that what HE's told you?

I am constantly astonished at the
extent of your credulousness.

We have all seen the full extent of his
'scholarship' in the contributions that
he has made, over the years, to our
discussions of the sonnets, i.e. ZERO.

How can you think someone can know
about Elizabethan poetry when they
have not got the first clue about the
identity of the one great poet of that era?

Even on Stratfordian terms, he's another
fraud -- like (ugh) Webb -- who would
not dare to enter the fray, because they
suspect (with good reason) that they'd
get destroyed.

They are like boxers, who "know" all
about boxing, but would never dream
of entering the ring.


Paul.

Paul Crowley

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 15:55:2129-07-2004
aan
"Neil Brennen" <chessne...@mindspringnospam.com> wrote in message
news:rV7Oc.19193$iK....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> > > We've all had the experience of having a
> > > serious misunderstanding of the meaning
> > > of a statement or a passage (or a complete
> > > failure to grasp the sense of the text). We
> > > might have made some judgements on the
> > > style. But when we learn the true meaning,
> > > we have to scrap every one of those judge-
> > > ments, and re-assess the whole thing from
> > > scratch.
>
> I hate to say it, but I partly agree with Paul here.

Gee, thanks.

> > > > First, much of the rhythm is really plodding:
> > >
> > > All this is pointless nonsense. It's as
> > > though you were criticising a Beethoven
> > > symphony because you expected it to
> > > be syncopated jazz (or vice versa).
>
> However, things are back to normal now that Crowley has made such an absurd
> statement. Is it normal for a Shakespeare sonnet to have plodding rhythm?

No, it is not. But we can assume that
it was exactly what the poet intended.
Until we understand what he was saying,
we cannot guess at the purpose of the
rhythm.

I suspect that it's meant to reflect the
beat of a metronome -- or, more precisely,
the rhythm of rowing -- i.e. someone who
'tels the time'. (Now -- there's a clue as
to what the sonnet is about.)


Paul.

Gary Kosinsky

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 17:25:5829-07-2004
aan
So what have we learned from Sonnet 12 that we
didn't already know?

Nothing much to speak of.

*****************************************************

The story so far:

So after twelve sonnets, what do we know? -

In all probability the addressee of these twelve
sonnets is the same person (although it has been speculated
that perhaps the speaker of each poem is different).

The poet says the addressee is physically
attractive. The description of that beauty is in terms that
would seem more suitable to a woman than a man. (1 - 7, 9)

The poet says that the addressee is narcissistic. (1
- 4, 6)

The poet may be chiding the addressee's sexual
habits. (1 - 4, 6, 9)

The addressee is male. (3, 6, 9)

The addressee is of marriageable age, meaning (I
think) that he would be in the 17 - 26 age range. (1 - 4, 6,
8 - 12)

The poet says the addressee has a pleasant speaking
voice and enjoys listening to sad music. (8)

The poet says the addressee has a gracious and kind
presence. (10)

The poet seems to think that the addressee has some
sort of love for the poet. (10)

The poet is an aesthetic snob. (11)

The poet, having posed a problem for the addressee,
is offering a solution to that problem - namely that the
addressee should have children - specifically, a son. But
let's remember that it's only the poet's assertion that
beautiful people have some sort of obligation to the world
to propagate or preserve their beauty.

The poet seems singularly concerned with the
addressee's beauty, and not overly much with the addressee
as a person.

While seeming to chastise the addressee for his
narcissistic failure to preserve or propagate his beauty,
the poet is, at the same time, acknowledging that beauty,
and so is flattering the addressee.

We still don't know the sex of the poet.

We still don't know which class the poet or the
addressee belong to.

We still don't know what the relationship is between
the poet and the addressee. Is he a relative or family
friend - the poems so far have an avuncular quality to them.
Or perhaps he is in a position of some authority over the
addressee - a teacher maybe. The poems can also be read as
being deferential - perhaps the poet is in a subordinate
position to the addressee. Perhaps later sonnets will make
this clear. Or perhaps not.

One word descriptions of the sonnets:

1) Introduction; 2) Siege; 3) Mirror; 4) Usury; 5) Perfume;
6) Money-lending; 7) Sun; 8) Music; 9) Widow; 10) Self-hate;
11) Snob; 12) Breed;

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid
(Robert Stonehouse) wrote:

>
> 12
>
>VVhen I doe count the clock that tels the time,

>And see the braue day sunck in hidious night,
>When I behold the violet past prime,
>And sable curls or siluer'd ore with white :

>When lofty trees I see barren of leaues,

>Which erst from heat did canopie the herd
>And Sommers greene all girded vp in sheaues

>Borne on the beare with white and bristly beard:


>Then of thy beauty do I question make

>That thou among the wastes of time must goe,
>Since sweets and beauties do them-selues forsake,
>And die as fast as they see others grow,


> And nothing gainst Times sieth can make defence

> Saue breed to braue him,when he takes thee hence.
>

>When I do count the clock that tells the time
>And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
>When I behold the violet past prime
>And sable curls o'er-silvered all with white; 4
>When lofty trees I see barren of leaves
>Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,
>And summer's green all girded up in sheaves
>Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; 8
>Then of thy beauty do I question make
>That thou among the wastes of time must go,
>Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
>And die as fast as they see others grow; 12
> And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
> Save breed, to brave him, when he takes thee hence.
>
>

>[Other emendations in line 4: "all silvered o'er", "ensilvered o'er",
>"or-silvered o'er", "'o'er-silvered are", "are silvered o'er"]

>--
>Robert Stonehouse
>To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted.

- Gary Kosinsky

bookburn

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 19:09:5029-07-2004
aan

"bookburn" <book...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10ggoim...@corp.supernews.com...

Okay, I remember now that there is a funeral context for "sweets" in
terms of violets that were commonly scattered around remains and which
eminated a distinct sweet aroma.

biancas842001

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 23:42:0929-07-2004
aan
"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 27 Jul 2004 15:40:01 -0700, bianca...@yahoo.com (biancas842001)
> wrote:
>> "Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> When I do count the clock that tells the time
>>> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it
is,
>>
>> My own instinct would be to suggest this reading ("chimes"
replacing
>> "clock"), but it seems not required by the words of the poem,
judging
>> from the consensus view.
>
> Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting emending the text! (As 'reading'
> might make it seem.)

I didn't know that "reading" could mean "emendation." I had in mind:
4a: a particular interpretation of something (as a law)
b: a particular performance of something (as a musical work)
(from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1979). I'm most familiar
with the usages, "my reading of this phrase is ... ," or "a line
reading," by an actor.

There is nothing startling or unorthdox in
> understanding this line as about chimes, though it is not universal,
> since Helen Vendler has "aurally and visually ticking".
>
> But all the others are on my side:
> Duncan-Jones "hear, and count, the chimes made by the clock"
> Kerrigan "add up (what the clock strikes)"
> Burrow "count the strokes of the clock"
> Ingram and Redpath "The clock is striking the time well into the
> night"
> Blakemore Evans "number the strokes"
> Booth "count the strokes of".

It sounded like several people on hlas disagreed: Lynne Kositsky, Tom
Reedy, Jim/KQKnave, and possibly also Paul Crowley. Unless they were
pulling our collective leg.

>>
>>>> And see the brave day sunk in hideous nght,
>>> when the beauty of the day is covered in ugly darkness,
>>
>> I would suggest this isn't a hatred of black people, but the
natural
>> fear of most people, of the night.
>
> Nothing at all to do with black people!

Mr. Banerjee will be happy to hear that, I think.

----
Bianca S.

John W. Kennedy

ongelezen,
29 jul. 2004 21:35:3329-07-2004
aan
Tom Reedy wrote:

I criticized "service long" and "fawn and flatter both" in "If women
could be fair and yet not fond" for being forced and ambiguous
(ambiguous because, in context, they open up nonsensical readings that
force the reader to back up a line or more to figure out what the
actually intended syntax is). I don't recall addressing "Were I a king"
on that issue.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
30 jul. 2004 14:36:1630-07-2004
aan
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:25:58 GMT, gk...@vcn.bc.ca (Gary Kosinsky)
wrote:

> So what have we learned from Sonnet 12 that we
>didn't already know?
>
> Nothing much to speak of.

I want to repeat that it is not the purpose of the sonnets to _tell us
things_. Of course, that need not stop us looking for things if that
is what we want, but if we don't find them, that doesn't mean there is
something wrong.

Another point of Helen Vendler's: this sonnet really is becoming
personal. The word 'I' appears four times, and it is made the subject
of the main verb of a sentence, not just a subordinate clause as in
sonnet 10.

This could be another known Shakespeare trick: introducing something
new in a way that leaves us entirely uncertain whether it is there,
and not taking the plunge until one or two sonnets later.
...

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
30 jul. 2004 14:36:2030-07-2004
aan
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:34:00 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
Stonehouse) wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:43 -0400, "LynnE"
><lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>"Robert Stonehouse" <ew...@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk...

>>> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
>>> Stonehouse) wrote:
>>>
>>> > 12
>>> ...

>>> >When I do count the clock that tells the time
>>> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,
...
>(On the birthday party hypothesis, we could imagine the recitations
>were timed so that this sonnet came as the last stroke of twelve died
>away. But we mustn't believe our imaginations.)
>>
I wrote this as a mere flight of fancy, but it can be useful in other
ways. Without accepting it as true, just suppose that the poem could
have been used in that way. It helps appreciate the atmosphere that
permeates lines 1-12.

Gary Kosinsky

ongelezen,
30 jul. 2004 18:14:2730-07-2004
aan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:16 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid
(Robert Stonehouse) wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:25:58 GMT, gk...@vcn.bc.ca (Gary Kosinsky)
>wrote:
>> So what have we learned from Sonnet 12 that we
>>didn't already know?
>>
>> Nothing much to speak of.
>
>I want to repeat that it is not the purpose of the sonnets to _tell us
>things_.

What do you think the purpose of the sonnets is?

>Of course, that need not stop us looking for things if that
>is what we want,

Which is my approach.

>but if we don't find them, that doesn't mean there is
>something wrong.

No. But if one, for whatever reason, is inclined to
try to extract whatever information one can about the
addressee and poet from the poems (whether the addressee and
poet are both imaginary creations, or whether they are
substantially reflective of real people), there's nothing
wrong in pointing out that nothing new has been added by a
particular sonnet.


- Gary Kosinsky

Robert Stonehouse

ongelezen,
31 jul. 2004 13:51:1331-07-2004
aan
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:14:27 GMT, gk...@vcn.bc.ca (Gary Kosinsky)

wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:16 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid
>(Robert Stonehouse) wrote:
>>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:25:58 GMT, gk...@vcn.bc.ca (Gary Kosinsky)
>>wrote:
>>> So what have we learned from Sonnet 12 that we
>>>didn't already know?
>>>
>>> Nothing much to speak of.
>>
>>I want to repeat that it is not the purpose of the sonnets to _tell us
>>things_.
>
> What do you think the purpose of the sonnets is?

To be poems; vague perhaps, but to get beyond that we have to do the
reading.

>>Of course, that need not stop us looking for things if that
>>is what we want,
>
> Which is my approach.
>
>>but if we don't find them, that doesn't mean there is
>>something wrong.
>
> No. But if one, for whatever reason, is inclined to
>try to extract whatever information one can about the
>addressee and poet from the poems (whether the addressee and
>poet are both imaginary creations, or whether they are
>substantially reflective of real people), there's nothing
>wrong in pointing out that nothing new has been added by a
>particular sonnet.

Agreed entirely. I just don't want people to think that is the only,
or proper, or only proper question to ask about the sonnets. Unless
someone does this every now and then, the public get the impression
there is only one viewpoint that it is all about. Apologies for any
offence given! I did try to make it plain, but evidently not very
successfully.

Arindam Banerjee

ongelezen,
1 aug. 2004 18:16:5201-08-2004
aan
ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message news:<41049ce6...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...
> On 25 Jul 2004 14:51:09 -0700, adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee)
> wrote:
> >ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert Stonehouse) wrote in message news:<41029620...@news.cityscape.co.uk>...

> >> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:15:34 GMT, ew...@bcs.org.invalid (Robert
> >> Stonehouse) wrote:
> >>
> >> > 12
> ...
> >> >When I do count the clock that tells the time
> >> When I count the chimes of the clock, which proclaim what time it is,
> >
> >Why must one massacre the original simply in order to "explain" it?
> >Shakespeare is such a perfect writer, he needs no elaboration. Just
> >deep understanding.
>
> Don't read my paraphrases if they make you uncomfortable!

They make me sick.

> I personally find the sonnets very difficult and in need of
> explanation.

I do not. I personally find them absolutely simple and
straightforward. However, Shakespeare was limited by the paltry and
murky English language; in a better and more poetic language like
Bengali his meaning is as clear as daylight.

LynnE

ongelezen,
1 aug. 2004 19:24:2301-08-2004
aan

"Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:890e65ea.04080...@posting.google.com...

I expect Shakespeare was actually a Bengali. Still, you must admit the
English translations are remarkable.

Best wishes,
LynnE


Neil Brennen

ongelezen,
1 aug. 2004 19:43:2901-08-2004
aan

"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:MYePc.2846$Jq2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...

No, I think Shakespeare wrote in English. But according to Mr. Banerjee he
must lose something in the original.


bookburn

ongelezen,
1 aug. 2004 20:33:5301-08-2004
aan

"Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:890e65ea.04080...@posting.google.com...

I would say it's impossible for an original to be improved by
translation, but I do remember Xerox copies coming out better than the
original somehow.
I'm doubtful about this, given the compressed nature of lyric poetry
and its capacity for abstract symbolism, especially in the handling of
myriad-minded Shakespeare. To get your values enhanced by
translation, surely the original loses something while being made
"clearer." Consider this: many "improved" translations of the King
James Bible have been published by do-gooders, but people still prefer
the Elizabethan language version. bookburn


Tom Reedy

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 09:48:4602-08-2004
aan
"Neil Brennen" <chessne...@mindspringnospam.com> wrote in message
news:BefPc.6389$Jp6....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

No. I agree with Lynne. All the biographical evidence we have suggests that
Shakespeare was actually a Bengali nobleman, probably driven into exile and
living in England with a family that appeared to be illiterate because they
did not take the time to learn the language the way he did.

And the reason why the translations are so remarkable is that he did them
himself! I'm sure the controversial political nature of the plays and poems
is the reason why he was driven out of his own country.

TR

>
>


surreal_ravi

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 11:32:2702-08-2004
aan
In soc.culture.bengali Tom Reedy <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:> >
:> > "Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote in message

:> > I expect Shakespeare was actually a Bengali. Still, you must admit the


:> > English translations are remarkable.
:>
:> No, I think Shakespeare wrote in English. But according to Mr. Banerjee he
:> must lose something in the original.

: No. I agree with Lynne. All the biographical evidence we have suggests that
: Shakespeare was actually a Bengali nobleman, probably driven into exile and
: living in England with a family that appeared to be illiterate because they
: did not take the time to learn the language the way he did.

Shakespeare couldn't possibly be a Bengali nobleman because
he wasn't a very handsome man. The laws of genetics don't
allow anyone to belong to Bengali heritage unless the person
is stunningly good looking.

Neil Brennen

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 18:00:5402-08-2004
aan

"Tom Reedy" <reed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2DrPc.6472$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

You would make an excellent antiStrat, Tom. You have the "thought" process
down pat.


Arindam Banerjee

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 18:16:2202-08-2004
aan
surrea...@yahoo.ca (surreal_ravi) wrote in message news:<8b6beb99.04080...@posting.google.com>...

Why, there you are, Mr Singh! Maina toe socha tha ki aap humay bilkul
bhool gayay thay. Naraaz thay kya? A good deal of credit for my
translations of the sonnets goes to you, Mr Singh. Such has been your
intense and constant praise for my good looks, I felt that WS was
writing about me, really, instead of the fictional WH. Thanks. What
an inspiration! Keep it up, there is a lot still left to do. In the
meantime, I suggest you be my agent for modelling companies, and see
if Hollywood takes me take me for their next James Bond movie, might
as well do one while I am still not too old... :) :)

Arindam Banerjee.

Dr. Jai Maharaj

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 18:50:2402-08-2004
aan
In article <890e65ea.04080...@posting.google.com>,
adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee) posted:

Which role shall be written for you in an upcoming Bond film?

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti

Arindam Banerjee

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 19:14:4102-08-2004
aan
> Why, there you are, Mr Singh! Maina toe socha tha ki aap humay bilkul
> bhool gayay thay. Naraaz thay kya? A good deal of credit for my
> translations of the sonnets goes to you, Mr Singh. Such has been your
> intense and constant praise for my good looks, I felt that WS was
> writing about me, really, instead of the fictional WH. Thanks. What
> an inspiration! Keep it up, there is a lot still left to do. In the
> meantime, I suggest you be my agent for modelling companies, and see
> if Hollywood takes me take me for their next James Bond movie, might
> as well do one while I am still not too old... :) :)
>
> Arindam Banerjee.

Which role shall be written for you in an upcoming Bond film?

AB: The charming Bengali villain, of course, who wants to save the
world by inventing a machine that provides unlimited power on a
non-polluting basis, and also an engine that provides unlimited
acceleration. He naturally draws the ire of the oil companies, not to
speak of all the theoretical physicists and their worshippers in
politics, media and academics. So they send Bond to kill him, but
Bond instead turns into a pop star, singing lovely songs written by
the villain. (So, this is really a Bollywood-Hollywood-Tollywood
co-operative effort.) Then Bond kills off the other 00s sent to kill
both, and there is a global revolution initiated by the people of
Kolkata. Wow, this is too rich, cannot be done, sorry.

Dr. Jai Maharaj

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 20:24:1102-08-2004
aan
In article <890e65ea.04080...@posting.google.com>,
adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee) posted:
>
>>> Why, there you are, Mr Singh! Maina toe socha tha ki aap humay bilkul
>>> bhool gayay thay. Naraaz thay kya? A good deal of credit for my
>>> translations of the sonnets goes to you, Mr Singh. Such has been your
>>> intense and constant praise for my good looks, I felt that WS was
>>> writing about me, really, instead of the fictional WH. Thanks. What
>>> an inspiration! Keep it up, there is a lot still left to do. In the
>>> meantime, I suggest you be my agent for modelling companies, and see
>>> if Hollywood takes me take me for their next James Bond movie, might
>>> as well do one while I am still not too old... :) :)
>>> Arindam Banerjee.

> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:

> Which role shall be written for you in an upcoming Bond film?

>> - Jai Maharaj


> AB: The charming Bengali villain, of course, who wants to save the
> world by inventing a machine that provides unlimited power on a
> non-polluting basis, and also an engine that provides unlimited
> acceleration. He naturally draws the ire of the oil companies, not to
> speak of all the theoretical physicists and their worshippers in
> politics, media and academics. So they send Bond to kill him, but
> Bond instead turns into a pop star, singing lovely songs written by
> the villain. (So, this is really a Bollywood-Hollywood-Tollywood
> co-operative effort.) Then Bond kills off the other 00s sent to kill
> both, and there is a global revolution initiated by the people of
> Kolkata. Wow, this is too rich, cannot be done, sorry.

One can have a role reversal at the end and
the real naught-naught-seven emerges. The
mad inventor turns out to be the wise saviour.
Of course, his machine needs to be in working
order in tip-top shape and all shined up.

Arya Raychaudhuri

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 21:49:3102-08-2004
aan

Amazing! Was he not the guy who killed his fellow bard Christopher
Marlowe by trickery, as I saw in Shakespeare in Love!

>
> TR
>
>
>>
>
>

Neil Brennen

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 22:36:0902-08-2004
aan

"Arya Raychaudhuri" <arya_ray...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:410EEF8...@sbcglobal.net...

> Tom Reedy wrote:
> >>>I expect Shakespeare was actually a Bengali. Still, you must admit the
> >>>English translations are remarkable.
> >>
> >>No, I think Shakespeare wrote in English. But according to Mr. Banerjee
he
> >>must lose something in the original.
> >
> > No. I agree with Lynne. All the biographical evidence we have suggests
that
> > Shakespeare was actually a Bengali nobleman, probably driven into exile
and
> > living in England with a family that appeared to be illiterate because
they
> > did not take the time to learn the language the way he did.
> >
> > And the reason why the translations are so remarkable is that he did
them
> > himself! I'm sure the controversial political nature of the plays and
poems
> > is the reason why he was driven out of his own country.
>
> Amazing! Was he not the guy who killed his fellow bard Christopher
> Marlowe by trickery, as I saw in Shakespeare in Love!

No, Marlowe escaped and composed secret messages in the Shakespeare monument
inscription.


John W. Kennedy

ongelezen,
2 aug. 2004 22:26:2502-08-2004