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What things have we seen done at the Mermaid!
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Arthur Neuendorffer
Sep 16, 2016, 11:55:57 AM9/16/16
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> nordicskiv2 said:
>>
>> "...all great things"?! Do you think (usual disclaimer) that the works
>> of Beethoven were a "group effort", Art?! What about Ramanujan's
>> notebooks? Wagner's operas? Were Mozart's works composed by a
>> committee, Art? How about the works of Pushkin? Or Tolstoy? Don't
>> those qualify as "great things", Art?
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> Or, on the other hand, unless you want to count Ruth Draper,
> pretty much all theatre is a "group effort", anyway.
Lea wrote: <<Yes, in an obvious sense.>>
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> But the real problem is the thing that really makes Shakespeare
> Shakespeare. The man is the Vesalius of the soul, unrivaled after his
> death for two centuries. Perhaps it could only have been an actor who
> could have done it; perhaps it is more than chance that he turned up in
> the first generation in the West where an educated gentleman could
> become a professional actor. (And perhaps, then, it is more than
> coincidence that Jane Austen indulged in private theatricals in her
> youth.)
>
> Has any group ever produced such work?
-----------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_McLaughlin_Group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaughlin_sporadic_group
<<The McLaughlin group is one of the *26* sporadic groups and was discovered by McLaughlin (1969) as an index 2 subgroup of a rank 3 permutation group acting on the McLaughlin graph with 275 = 1 + 112 + 162 vertices. It fixes a 2-2-3 triangle in the Leech lattice.>>
-----------------------------------------------
Lea wrote:
<<I can't think of any. Bourbaki is a group effort, but its endeavor is one of synthesis, not of creation. There are a few novels worth mentioning that arise from two-person collaborations (e.g., those of Ilf and Petrov), but that's a far cry from the sort of Hermetic cabal that Art has in mind.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki
<<The name "Bourbaki" refers to a French general, Charles Denis Bourbaki (*April 22* 1816 – 22 September 1897); it was adopted by the math group as a reference to a student anecdote about a hoax mathematical lecture. The scene of Bourbaki's army being disarmed when they crossed the Swiss borders is the subject of an 1881 panoramic painting in Lucerne. Rather than submit to the humiliation of a probable surrender, Bourbaki fired a pistol at his own forehead, but the bullet somehow "flattened as if against a cast-iron plate." The character Epivent holds Bourbaki in highest regard in Guy de Maupassant's short story Bed no.29>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> nordicskiv2 said:
>>
>> "Encyclopedic knowledge"?!?! Do you mean the striking clocks and
>> billiards in ancient Rome, neither of which would be invented until
>> nearly a millennium and a half later, Art?!
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> China had some only seven or eight centuries later.
>
> But again, there is a more fundamental problem here, to wit, that
> Shakespeare's "encyclopedic" knowledge comes almost entirely from
> standard school texts and from secondary sources that, if not precisely
> encyclopedias, were at least the period equivalents (Holinshed, for
> example). He is educated, but not scholarly.
Lea wrote:
<<Absolutely! Shakespeare's vaunted "encyclopedic knowledge" is the result of what *all* good writers do: research. The process makes writers look erudite in the areas that they choose to delve into in detail in their research,>>
Research by candlelight at the Mermaid Tavern:
---------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid_Tavern
_Poets impalled wt Lawrell coranets_
<<The Mermaid Tavern was a tavern on Cheapside in London during the Elizabethan era, located east of St. Paul's Cathedral on the corner of Friday Street and Bread Street. It was the site of the so-called "Fraternity of Sireniacal Gentlemen", a drinking club that met on the first Friday of every month that included some of the Elizabethan era's leading literary figures, among them Ben Jonson, John Donne, John Fletcher and Francis Beaumont, Thomas Coryat, John Selden, Robert Bruce Cotton, Richard Carew, Richard Martin, and William Strachey.
William Gifford, Jonson's 19th-century editor, wrote that the society was founded by Sir Walter Raleigh in 1603, based on a note by John Aubrey. Gifford also was the first to name the Mermaid as the site of Jonson and Shakespeare's battle-of-wits debates in which they discussed politics, religion, and literature. According to tradition, Shakespeare, though not as learned as Jonson, often won these debates. There is an extended reference to the Tavern and its witty conversation in Master Francis Beaumont's Letter to Ben Jonson. Coryat's letters also refer to the Tavern, and mention Jonson, Donne, Cotton, Inigo Jones, and Hugh Holland – though Coryat was intimate with this group apparently from 1611 on.
Shakespeare certainly had connections with some of the tavern's literary clientele, as well as with the tavern's landlord, William Johnson. When Shakespeare bought the Blackfriars gatehouse on March 10, 1613, Johnson was listed as a trustee for the mortgage. And Hugh Holland, mentioned in Coryat's letters, composed one of the commendatory poems prefacing the First Folio of Shakespeare's plays.
"The Sireniacal gentlemen" also met at the Mitre tavern in London, that seemed to be located nearby. The opening scene of Bartholomew Fair by Ben Jonson (1614) has one of the characters, John Littlewit, refer negatively to those "Canary-drinking" wits who keep company at the ‘Three Cranes, Mitre, and Mermaid’. Apparently they were seen as too elitist. The wine in question seems to be the same as sack. Jonson & Beaumont both mentioned the Mermaid Tavern in verse:
.
. Jonson's Inviting a Friend to Supper refers to
.
. "*A pure cup of rich Canary wine*,
. Which is the Mermaid's now, but shall be mine".>>
----------------------------------------------------------
. Twelfth Night (Folio 1, 1623) I,iii
.
SIR TOBY BELCH: O knight, thou lack'st *a cup of Canarie*:
---------------------------------------------------------
___ Chapter 9 James Joyce's Ulysses (1922)
.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/j/joyce/james/j8u/episode9.html
http://tinyurl.com/nsjk9dz
...........................................................
And sir William Davenant of *Oxford's mother* with her cup
o{F} c{A|n|R}y f<O|R> {A|N]y {c|O)ck[C|a|N|A]ry. <B>uck Mulligan,
his pious eyes upturned, prayed: Blessed Margaret Mary Anycock!
.................................................
. <= 5 =>
.
. c u p o {F}
. c (A) {n} (A) {r}
. y f <O> (r) {A}
. [N] y {c} (O) c
. k [C] {a} (N) [A]
. r y <B> u c k Mulligan
(NOrA) Skip -5
{FRA} Skip 5
{<B>acon} Skip -5
[<B>ACON] Skip -3
{N<O>rA} Skip -3
rarnale
Prob. of 2 [<B>ACON]s skip<6 in Ulysses ~ 1 in 2300
.....................................................
(NOrA) (B)arna(C)le (March 1884 - April 10, 1951)
(BACON) nar earl
was the muse & wife of author James Joyce.
*NAR* : fool, jester, coxcomb (Danish, Dutch, Yiddish)
---------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid_Tavern
_Poets impalled wt Lawrell coranets_
<<Jonson & Beaumont both mentioned the Mermaid Tavern in verse:
Jonson's Inviting a Friend to Supper refers to
.
. "*A pure cup of rich Canary wine*,
. Which is the Mermaid's now, but shall be mine".
Beaumont, in his verse letter to Jonson, describes:
................................................
. What things have we seen
. Done at the Mermaid! heard words that have been
. So nimble, and so full of subtle flame,
. As if that [EVER]y one (from wh[E]nce they came)
. Had meant to put his whole wit in a jest,
. And had resolved to li[V]e a fool the rest
. Of his dull life;—then when there hath been thrown
. Wit able [E]nough to justify the town
. For three days past; wit that might warrant be
. Fo[R] the whole city to talk foolishly
. Till that were cancelled; and, when we wer[E] gone,
. We left an air behind us; which alone
. Was able to make the two next companies
.(Right witty; though but downright fools) more wise!
[E.VERE] 61
. When I remember this, and see that now
. The country gentlemen begin to allow
. My wit for dry bobs, then I needs must cry,
.‘I see my days of ballating grow nigh!’
. I can already riddle, and can sing
. Catches, sell bargains: and I fear shall bring
. Myself to speak the hardest words I find
. Over as oft as any, with one wind,
. That takes no medicines. But one thought of thee
. Makes me remember all these things to be
. The wit of our young men, fellows that show
. No part of good, yet utter all they know;
. Who, like trees of th{E} guard, have growin{G} souls,
. Only strong {D}estiny, which all c{O}ntrols,
. I hope hath {L}eft a better *FATE* in store
. For me, thy friend, than to liv{E} [EVER] poor,
. Banished unto this home. *FATE* once a{G}ain,
. Brings me to thee, who canst make smooth an{D} plain
. The way of knowledge for me, and then I
.(Wh{O} have no good, but in thy company,)
. Protest it wil{L} my greatest comfort be,
. To acknowledge all I have, to flow from thee!
. Ben, when these Scenes are perfect, we’ll taste wine!
. I’ll drink thy Muse’s health! thou shalt quaff mine!
.......................................................
. <= 19 =>
.
. W h o,l i k e t r e e s o f t h{E}g u
. a r d,h a v e g r o w i n{G}s o u l s,
. O n l y s t r o n g{D}e s t i n y,w h
. i c h a l l c{O}n t r o l s,I h o p e
. h a t h{L}e f t a b e t t e r*F A T E*
. i n s t o r e F o r m e,t h y f r i e
. n d,t h a n t o l i v{E|E V E R]p o o
. r,B a n i s h e d u n t o t h i s h o
. m e*F A T E*o n c e a{G}a i n,B r i n
. g s m e t o t h e e,w h o c a n s t m
. a k e s m o o t h a n{D}p l a i n T h
. e w a y o f k n o w l e d g e f o r m
. e,a n d t h e n I(W h{O}h a v e n o g
. o o d,b u t i n t h y c o m p a n y,P
. r o t e s t i t w i l{L}m y g r e a t
. e s t c o m fo r t b e,
{LODGE} -16,-38 : Prob. of both at end ~ 1 in 43,000
-----------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
>>
>> "...all great things"?! Do you think (usual disclaimer) that the works
>> of Beethoven were a "group effort", Art?! What about Ramanujan's
>> notebooks? Wagner's operas? Were Mozart's works composed by a
>> committee, Art? How about the works of Pushkin? Or Tolstoy? Don't
>> those qualify as "great things", Art?
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> Or, on the other hand, unless you want to count Ruth Draper,
> pretty much all theatre is a "group effort", anyway.
Lea wrote: <<Yes, in an obvious sense.>>
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> But the real problem is the thing that really makes Shakespeare
> Shakespeare. The man is the Vesalius of the soul, unrivaled after his
> death for two centuries. Perhaps it could only have been an actor who
> could have done it; perhaps it is more than chance that he turned up in
> the first generation in the West where an educated gentleman could
> become a professional actor. (And perhaps, then, it is more than
> coincidence that Jane Austen indulged in private theatricals in her
> youth.)
>
> Has any group ever produced such work?
-----------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_McLaughlin_Group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaughlin_sporadic_group
<<The McLaughlin group is one of the *26* sporadic groups and was discovered by McLaughlin (1969) as an index 2 subgroup of a rank 3 permutation group acting on the McLaughlin graph with 275 = 1 + 112 + 162 vertices. It fixes a 2-2-3 triangle in the Leech lattice.>>
-----------------------------------------------
Lea wrote:
<<I can't think of any. Bourbaki is a group effort, but its endeavor is one of synthesis, not of creation. There are a few novels worth mentioning that arise from two-person collaborations (e.g., those of Ilf and Petrov), but that's a far cry from the sort of Hermetic cabal that Art has in mind.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki
<<The name "Bourbaki" refers to a French general, Charles Denis Bourbaki (*April 22* 1816 – 22 September 1897); it was adopted by the math group as a reference to a student anecdote about a hoax mathematical lecture. The scene of Bourbaki's army being disarmed when they crossed the Swiss borders is the subject of an 1881 panoramic painting in Lucerne. Rather than submit to the humiliation of a probable surrender, Bourbaki fired a pistol at his own forehead, but the bullet somehow "flattened as if against a cast-iron plate." The character Epivent holds Bourbaki in highest regard in Guy de Maupassant's short story Bed no.29>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> nordicskiv2 said:
>>
>> "Encyclopedic knowledge"?!?! Do you mean the striking clocks and
>> billiards in ancient Rome, neither of which would be invented until
>> nearly a millennium and a half later, Art?!
John W Kennedy wrote:
>
> China had some only seven or eight centuries later.
>
> But again, there is a more fundamental problem here, to wit, that
> Shakespeare's "encyclopedic" knowledge comes almost entirely from
> standard school texts and from secondary sources that, if not precisely
> encyclopedias, were at least the period equivalents (Holinshed, for
> example). He is educated, but not scholarly.
Lea wrote:
<<Absolutely! Shakespeare's vaunted "encyclopedic knowledge" is the result of what *all* good writers do: research. The process makes writers look erudite in the areas that they choose to delve into in detail in their research,>>
Research by candlelight at the Mermaid Tavern:
---------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid_Tavern
_Poets impalled wt Lawrell coranets_
<<The Mermaid Tavern was a tavern on Cheapside in London during the Elizabethan era, located east of St. Paul's Cathedral on the corner of Friday Street and Bread Street. It was the site of the so-called "Fraternity of Sireniacal Gentlemen", a drinking club that met on the first Friday of every month that included some of the Elizabethan era's leading literary figures, among them Ben Jonson, John Donne, John Fletcher and Francis Beaumont, Thomas Coryat, John Selden, Robert Bruce Cotton, Richard Carew, Richard Martin, and William Strachey.
William Gifford, Jonson's 19th-century editor, wrote that the society was founded by Sir Walter Raleigh in 1603, based on a note by John Aubrey. Gifford also was the first to name the Mermaid as the site of Jonson and Shakespeare's battle-of-wits debates in which they discussed politics, religion, and literature. According to tradition, Shakespeare, though not as learned as Jonson, often won these debates. There is an extended reference to the Tavern and its witty conversation in Master Francis Beaumont's Letter to Ben Jonson. Coryat's letters also refer to the Tavern, and mention Jonson, Donne, Cotton, Inigo Jones, and Hugh Holland – though Coryat was intimate with this group apparently from 1611 on.
Shakespeare certainly had connections with some of the tavern's literary clientele, as well as with the tavern's landlord, William Johnson. When Shakespeare bought the Blackfriars gatehouse on March 10, 1613, Johnson was listed as a trustee for the mortgage. And Hugh Holland, mentioned in Coryat's letters, composed one of the commendatory poems prefacing the First Folio of Shakespeare's plays.
"The Sireniacal gentlemen" also met at the Mitre tavern in London, that seemed to be located nearby. The opening scene of Bartholomew Fair by Ben Jonson (1614) has one of the characters, John Littlewit, refer negatively to those "Canary-drinking" wits who keep company at the ‘Three Cranes, Mitre, and Mermaid’. Apparently they were seen as too elitist. The wine in question seems to be the same as sack. Jonson & Beaumont both mentioned the Mermaid Tavern in verse:
.
. Jonson's Inviting a Friend to Supper refers to
.
. "*A pure cup of rich Canary wine*,
. Which is the Mermaid's now, but shall be mine".>>
----------------------------------------------------------
. Twelfth Night (Folio 1, 1623) I,iii
.
SIR TOBY BELCH: O knight, thou lack'st *a cup of Canarie*:
---------------------------------------------------------
___ Chapter 9 James Joyce's Ulysses (1922)
.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/j/joyce/james/j8u/episode9.html
http://tinyurl.com/nsjk9dz
...........................................................
And sir William Davenant of *Oxford's mother* with her cup
o{F} c{A|n|R}y f<O|R> {A|N]y {c|O)ck[C|a|N|A]ry. <B>uck Mulligan,
his pious eyes upturned, prayed: Blessed Margaret Mary Anycock!
.................................................
. <= 5 =>
.
. c u p o {F}
. c (A) {n} (A) {r}
. y f <O> (r) {A}
. [N] y {c} (O) c
. k [C] {a} (N) [A]
. r y <B> u c k Mulligan
(NOrA) Skip -5
{FRA} Skip 5
{<B>acon} Skip -5
[<B>ACON] Skip -3
{N<O>rA} Skip -3
rarnale
Prob. of 2 [<B>ACON]s skip<6 in Ulysses ~ 1 in 2300
.....................................................
(NOrA) (B)arna(C)le (March 1884 - April 10, 1951)
(BACON) nar earl
was the muse & wife of author James Joyce.
*NAR* : fool, jester, coxcomb (Danish, Dutch, Yiddish)
---------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid_Tavern
_Poets impalled wt Lawrell coranets_
<<Jonson & Beaumont both mentioned the Mermaid Tavern in verse:
Jonson's Inviting a Friend to Supper refers to
.
. "*A pure cup of rich Canary wine*,
. Which is the Mermaid's now, but shall be mine".
Beaumont, in his verse letter to Jonson, describes:
................................................
. What things have we seen
. Done at the Mermaid! heard words that have been
. So nimble, and so full of subtle flame,
. As if that [EVER]y one (from wh[E]nce they came)
. Had meant to put his whole wit in a jest,
. And had resolved to li[V]e a fool the rest
. Of his dull life;—then when there hath been thrown
. Wit able [E]nough to justify the town
. For three days past; wit that might warrant be
. Fo[R] the whole city to talk foolishly
. Till that were cancelled; and, when we wer[E] gone,
. We left an air behind us; which alone
. Was able to make the two next companies
.(Right witty; though but downright fools) more wise!
[E.VERE] 61
. When I remember this, and see that now
. The country gentlemen begin to allow
. My wit for dry bobs, then I needs must cry,
.‘I see my days of ballating grow nigh!’
. I can already riddle, and can sing
. Catches, sell bargains: and I fear shall bring
. Myself to speak the hardest words I find
. Over as oft as any, with one wind,
. That takes no medicines. But one thought of thee
. Makes me remember all these things to be
. The wit of our young men, fellows that show
. No part of good, yet utter all they know;
. Who, like trees of th{E} guard, have growin{G} souls,
. Only strong {D}estiny, which all c{O}ntrols,
. I hope hath {L}eft a better *FATE* in store
. For me, thy friend, than to liv{E} [EVER] poor,
. Banished unto this home. *FATE* once a{G}ain,
. Brings me to thee, who canst make smooth an{D} plain
. The way of knowledge for me, and then I
.(Wh{O} have no good, but in thy company,)
. Protest it wil{L} my greatest comfort be,
. To acknowledge all I have, to flow from thee!
. Ben, when these Scenes are perfect, we’ll taste wine!
. I’ll drink thy Muse’s health! thou shalt quaff mine!
.......................................................
. <= 19 =>
.
. W h o,l i k e t r e e s o f t h{E}g u
. a r d,h a v e g r o w i n{G}s o u l s,
. O n l y s t r o n g{D}e s t i n y,w h
. i c h a l l c{O}n t r o l s,I h o p e
. h a t h{L}e f t a b e t t e r*F A T E*
. i n s t o r e F o r m e,t h y f r i e
. n d,t h a n t o l i v{E|E V E R]p o o
. r,B a n i s h e d u n t o t h i s h o
. m e*F A T E*o n c e a{G}a i n,B r i n
. g s m e t o t h e e,w h o c a n s t m
. a k e s m o o t h a n{D}p l a i n T h
. e w a y o f k n o w l e d g e f o r m
. e,a n d t h e n I(W h{O}h a v e n o g
. o o d,b u t i n t h y c o m p a n y,P
. r o t e s t i t w i l{L}m y g r e a t
. e s t c o m fo r t b e,
{LODGE} -16,-38 : Prob. of both at end ~ 1 in 43,000
-----------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
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