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Was Sir Walter Raleigh a Pansy?
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neonprose @ gmail.com
Dec 25, 2012, 12:25:45 AM12/25/12
to
___________________________________________________________________
> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
>
> The search results that came up for Raleigh the Pansy
> were on one of those Renaissance Fairs sites.
>
> The "MacEwen of Argyll" wrote:
>
> A doublet is a much more complicated affair. It's the kind of
> outfit you see Sir Walter Raleigh dressed in. Generally very
> fancy, and often with the "slashed" fabric look. A doublet
> includes both a top "jacket"-like piece and bottom
> "breeches"-like piece, often very puffed out. A codpiece
> may be needed.
>
> Some Fairgoer responded:
>
> No, the doublet is the jacket-like garment. The bottom parts
> you refer to are called "upper hose". Various types of upperhose
> include slops, [note, not a typo], pansied slops (worn by extreme
> dandies, hence the term "pansy" for an effeminate man) pluderhosen,
> breeches, and other names.
(name deleted).
> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
>
> The search results that came up for Raleigh the Pansy
> were on one of those Renaissance Fairs sites.
>
> The "MacEwen of Argyll" wrote:
>
> A doublet is a much more complicated affair. It's the kind of
> outfit you see Sir Walter Raleigh dressed in. Generally very
> fancy, and often with the "slashed" fabric look. A doublet
> includes both a top "jacket"-like piece and bottom
> "breeches"-like piece, often very puffed out. A codpiece
> may be needed.
>
> Some Fairgoer responded:
>
> No, the doublet is the jacket-like garment. The bottom parts
> you refer to are called "upper hose". Various types of upperhose
> include slops, [note, not a typo], pansied slops (worn by extreme
> dandies, hence the term "pansy" for an effeminate man) pluderhosen,
> breeches, and other names.
(name deleted).
Robin G.
Dec 25, 2012, 2:28:22 AM12/25/12
to
On Dec 24, 9:25 pm, "neonprose @ gmail.com" <neonpr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
wrote:
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
> > I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
> > Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
>
> > I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
> > Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
John W Kennedy
Dec 25, 2012, 11:36:22 AM12/25/12
to
to know whether one's subject is gay or not. On the other hand, Lizzie
seems merely to be engaging in vulgar stereotyping. (You'd think the
Village People would have knocked that one particular one on the head.)
By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the meaning (pantaloons
with alternate layers of fabric displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash
sleeves) and origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied slops",
and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century slang "pansy" from it.
Rennies are often quite knowledgeable about period arts and crafts, but
their notions of EMnE are, as a rule, quaint, to say the least.
--
John W Kennedy
who has often been tempted to reply to a food vendor's "Thank thee,
milord," with "Zounds, sirrah! An I be thy lord, wherefore dost be-thou
me?"
marc hanson
Dec 25, 2012, 11:57:46 AM12/25/12
to
this guy Shakespeare was something else
Love, remember: and there is pansies. that's for thoughts. Hamlet: IV, v
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon, As You Like It: II, vii
Beguile the old pantaloon. The Taming of the Shrew: III, i
To lay his gay comparisons apart, Antony and Cleopatra: III, xiii
Then, lullaby, the learned man hath got the lady gay; Various poetry: XVI
The gay new coats o'er the french soldiers' heads King Henry V: IV, iii
Painting thy outward walls so costly gay? Sonnets: CXLVI
Never lack'd gold and yet went never gay, Othello: II, i
My gay apparel for an almsman's gown, King Richard II: III, iii
For gay apparel 'gainst the triumph day. King Richard II: V, ii
Do their gay vestments his affections bait? The Comedy of Errors: II, i
And deck my body in gay ornaments, King Henry VI, part III: III, ii
marc
Love, remember: and there is pansies. that's for thoughts. Hamlet: IV, v
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon, As You Like It: II, vii
Beguile the old pantaloon. The Taming of the Shrew: III, i
To lay his gay comparisons apart, Antony and Cleopatra: III, xiii
Then, lullaby, the learned man hath got the lady gay; Various poetry: XVI
The gay new coats o'er the french soldiers' heads King Henry V: IV, iii
Painting thy outward walls so costly gay? Sonnets: CXLVI
Never lack'd gold and yet went never gay, Othello: II, i
My gay apparel for an almsman's gown, King Richard II: III, iii
For gay apparel 'gainst the triumph day. King Richard II: V, ii
Do their gay vestments his affections bait? The Comedy of Errors: II, i
And deck my body in gay ornaments, King Henry VI, part III: III, ii
marc
Paul Crowley
Dec 27, 2012, 10:06:17 AM12/27/12
to
On 25/12/2012 16:36, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2012-12-25 07:28:22 +0000, Robin G. said:
>> On Dec 24, 9:25 pm, "neonprose @ gmail.com" <neonpr...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
>>>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
Raleigh was the leader of a new kind of fashion,
> On 2012-12-25 07:28:22 +0000, Robin G. said:
>> On Dec 24, 9:25 pm, "neonprose @ gmail.com" <neonpr...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
>>>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
not unlike the 'Flower-power' psychedelic hippie
movement of the late 1960s. Oxford had been
brought up when a militaristic short-back-and-
sides fashion had prevailed. New styles arrived
in the early 1580s, with -- for men -- long hair,
earrings, colourful clothing, fancy shoes, the
use of powder and perfumes. All this was
expensive and one reason that Oxford disliked
it so much was that he could not have taken
part even if he wanted. He was broke.
BUT the leaders of that style were no more gay
than were the Beatles or Rolling Stones in the
1960s.
>> So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
>
> Well, when researching for a biography, I suppose it
> is of some value to know whether one's subject is
> gay or not.
of her top favourites -- and provided him with the
financial resources that such new fashions
required.
> By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the
> meaning (pantaloons with alternate layers of fabric
> displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash sleeves) and
> origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied
> slops", and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century
> slang "pansy" from it.
comes to dating slang, and they are even more
unreliable when that slang refers to homosexual
people or activities. On the rare occasion such
matters were recorded in print, the terms used
were so vague and allusive, that only those
primed to 'read between the lines' got any hint
as to what they might have been about.
I'd be surprised if the term 'pansies' did not go
back to 1800, and I see no reason for it not being
around (in all senses) in the 1580s and coming
from 'Pantalone'.
Secondly, the notion that the word 'pansies' came
into English from the French for 'thoughts' (i.e.
pensées) strikes me as highly unlikely. It's a story
that would appeal to maiden aunts and to academics,
but not to the people who actually needed the word
--- those who produced, planted or bought the
flowers.
Of course, there's no good evidence one way or
the other, so you are free to believe in whatever
kind of nonsense you choose.
Paul.
marc hanson
Dec 27, 2012, 11:21:02 AM12/27/12
to
Of course, there's no good evidence one way or
the other, so you are free to believe in whatever
kind of nonsense you choose.
Paul
Ooooh - we're using Evidence now, are we?
the other, so you are free to believe in whatever
kind of nonsense you choose.
Paul
marc
neonpr...@gmail.com
Dec 31, 2012, 6:04:46 AM12/31/12
to
On Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:36:22 AM UTC-8, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2012-12-25 07:28:22 +0000, Robin G. said:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 24, 9:25 pm, "neonprose @ gmail.com" <neonpr...@gmail.com>
>
> > wrote: TO A SOUR OLD MAN . . .
> On 2012-12-25 07:28:22 +0000, Robin G. said:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 24, 9:25 pm, "neonprose @ gmail.com" <neonpr...@gmail.com>
>
>
> >> ___________________________________________________________________
>
> >>
>
> >>> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
>
> >>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
>
> >
>
> > So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
>
> IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME, I'VE NEVER BEEN GAY PHOBIC.
> >> ___________________________________________________________________
>
> >>
>
> >>> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
>
> >>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
>
> >
>
> > So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
>
>
> When I was in school, we'd head down to the gay bars
> in Seattle. Technically I was underage, I didn't have a
> State liquor card. but the lesbians who checked out the
> party goers at the door would let me in because I'm
> cute.
>
> I wonder whatever happened to Darcelle . . .
>
>
> Well, when researching for a biography, I suppose it is of some value
>
> to know whether one's subject is gay or not. On the other hand, Lizzie
>
> seems merely to be engaging in vulgar stereotyping. (You'd think the
>
> Village People would have knocked that one particular one on the head.)
>
>
>
> Oh shut up. My god, this once-premier news group has turned into a
>
> Well, when researching for a biography, I suppose it is of some value
>
> to know whether one's subject is gay or not. On the other hand, Lizzie
>
> seems merely to be engaging in vulgar stereotyping. (You'd think the
>
> Village People would have knocked that one particular one on the head.)
>
>
>
>
> gaggle of nags.
>
> By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the meaning (pantaloons
>
> with alternate layers of fabric displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash
>
> sleeves) and origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied slops",
>
> and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century slang "pansy" from it.
>
> Rennies are often quite knowledgeable about period arts and crafts, but
>
> their notions of EMnE are, as a rule, quaint, to say the least.
>
> Well, thank you for that. I don't mind being corrected if I err,
> By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the meaning (pantaloons
>
> with alternate layers of fabric displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash
>
> sleeves) and origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied slops",
>
> and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century slang "pansy" from it.
>
> Rennies are often quite knowledgeable about period arts and crafts, but
>
> their notions of EMnE are, as a rule, quaint, to say the least.
>
>
> I believe Bacon (I could be wrong) believe that we learn from
>
> our errors.
>
> Hello? In our rural high school we got four years of home-
>
> economics. I am no stranger to the sewing machine and
>
> I can also can peaches, which is trickier than canning pears.
>
>
> --
>
> John W Kennedy
>
> who has often been tempted to reply to a food vendor's "Thank thee,
>
> milord," with "Zounds, sirrah! An I be thy lord, wherefore dost be-thou
>
> me?"
>
> Are you still posting in the FOA Kennedy? It looks like it's starting
>
> --
>
> John W Kennedy
>
> who has often been tempted to reply to a food vendor's "Thank thee,
>
> milord," with "Zounds, sirrah! An I be thy lord, wherefore dost be-thou
>
> me?"
>
>
> to go into the death spiral like so many newsgroups have, probably
>
> cannibalized by Twitter and Face Book, the most
>
> PS, I DID NOT CUT OFF THE BOTTOM OF YOUR POST.
neonpr...@gmail.com
Dec 31, 2012, 6:05:57 AM12/31/12
to
David L. Webb
Jan 1, 2013, 1:16:43 PM1/1/13
to
In article <c1541664-2c0a-436b...@googlegroups.com>,
neonpr...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
nagging.
> > By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the meaning (pantaloons
> > with alternate layers of fabric displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash
> > sleeves) and origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied slops",
> > and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century slang "pansy" from it.
> > Rennies are often quite knowledgeable about period arts and crafts, but
> > their notions of EMnE are, as a rule, quaint, to say the least.
> Well, thank you for that. I don't mind being corrected
That's odd -- whenever I correct (a very small fraction of)
Elizabeth's farcical howlers, she whines about "abuse".
> if I err,
*If* she errs?!
> I believe Bacon (I could be wrong) believe [sic] that we learn from
> our errors.
If so, Bacon was wrong in at least one case: Elizabeth furnishes a
striking counterexample.
> Hello? In our rural high school we got four years of home-
> economics. I am no stranger to the sewing machine
It shows -- Elizabeth fabricates "facts" from whole cloth.
> and
> I can also can peaches, which is trickier than canning pears.
Huh?
> >
> > John W Kennedy
> >
> > who has often been tempted to reply to a food vendor's "Thank thee,
> > milord," with "Zounds, sirrah! An I be thy lord, wherefore dost be-thou
> > me?"
> Are you still posting in the FOA Kennedy? It looks like it's starting
> to go into the death spiral like so many newsgroups have, probably
> cannibalized by Twitter and Face Book [sic], the most [sic]
neonpr...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
> > >>> I was kind of taken aback by the idea that a man's man,
> > >>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
> > > > So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
> > > IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME, I'VE NEVER BEEN GAY PHOBIC.
> > >
> > > When I was in school, we'd head down to the gay bars
> > > in Seattle. Technically I was underage, I didn't have a
> > > State liquor card. but the lesbians who checked out the
> > > party goers at the door would let me in because I'm
> > > cute.
> > >
> > > I wonder whatever happened to Darcelle . . .
> > Well, when researching for a biography, I suppose it is of some value
> > to know whether one's subject is gay or not. On the other hand, Lizzie
> > seems merely to be engaging in vulgar stereotyping. (You'd think the
> > Village People would have knocked that one particular one on the head.)
> Oh shut up. My god, this once-premier news group has turned into a
> gaggle of nags.
Calling someone out for vulgar stereotyping scarcely qualifies as
> > >>> Sir Walter Raleigh, dressed like a pansy.
> > > > So what if is he was gay? Why should it matter to you?
> > > IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME, I'VE NEVER BEEN GAY PHOBIC.
> > >
> > > When I was in school, we'd head down to the gay bars
> > > in Seattle. Technically I was underage, I didn't have a
> > > State liquor card. but the lesbians who checked out the
> > > party goers at the door would let me in because I'm
> > > cute.
> > >
> > > I wonder whatever happened to Darcelle . . .
> > Well, when researching for a biography, I suppose it is of some value
> > to know whether one's subject is gay or not. On the other hand, Lizzie
> > seems merely to be engaging in vulgar stereotyping. (You'd think the
> > Village People would have knocked that one particular one on the head.)
> Oh shut up. My god, this once-premier news group has turned into a
> gaggle of nags.
nagging.
> > By the way, the embedded quote is wrong as to the meaning (pantaloons
> > with alternate layers of fabric displayed, analagous to puff-and-slash
> > sleeves) and origin (an alternate form is "paned") of "pansied slops",
> > and is equally wrong in deriving 20th-century slang "pansy" from it.
> > Rennies are often quite knowledgeable about period arts and crafts, but
> > their notions of EMnE are, as a rule, quaint, to say the least.
> Well, thank you for that. I don't mind being corrected
Elizabeth's farcical howlers, she whines about "abuse".
> if I err,
*If* she errs?!
> I believe Bacon (I could be wrong) believe [sic] that we learn from
> our errors.
If so, Bacon was wrong in at least one case: Elizabeth furnishes a
striking counterexample.
> Hello? In our rural high school we got four years of home-
> economics. I am no stranger to the sewing machine
> and
> I can also can peaches, which is trickier than canning pears.
> >
> > John W Kennedy
> >
> > who has often been tempted to reply to a food vendor's "Thank thee,
> > milord," with "Zounds, sirrah! An I be thy lord, wherefore dost be-thou
> > me?"
> Are you still posting in the FOA Kennedy? It looks like it's starting
> to go into the death spiral like so many newsgroups have, probably
John W Kennedy
Jan 1, 2013, 7:53:12 PM1/1/13
to
On 2013-01-01 18:16:43 +0000, David L. Webb said:
> In article <c1541664-2c0a-436b...@googlegroups.com>,
> neonpr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I can also can peaches, which is trickier than canning pears.
>
> Huh?
"...if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste
> In article <c1541664-2c0a-436b...@googlegroups.com>,
> neonpr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I can also can peaches, which is trickier than canning pears.
>
> Huh?
much more like prunes than rhubarb does."
--
John W Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"
marc.col...@googlemail.com
Oct 14, 2018, 11:18:03 PM10/14/18
to
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