What are the dark comedies?
Joseph Occhiogrosso
I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
(URLS maybe) that could help me out.
Thanks very much,
J.O.
KQswst104
Much Ado, As you Like it, and Twelfth Night
Sibylle Luise Binder
> Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
I think the term "dark comedy" means plays like "Winter Tales", "The
Tempest" or "The Merchant of Venice", who are definded as "comedy",
but with pretty "serious" subjects and tragical "heroes".
Yours
Sibyl
---
Dear Lord, grant me the serenity to accept
the things I cannot change, the courage to
change the things I cannot accept, and the
wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill today because they
pissed me off.
Xanthippe Yorick
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> > Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
>
> I think the term "dark comedy" means plays like "Winter Tales", "The
> Tempest" or "The Merchant of Venice", who are definded as "comedy",
> but with pretty "serious" subjects and tragical "heroes".
Actually, Sibylle, at the risk of being pedantic, I need to
point out that you gave Joseph a definition of
"tragicomedy." "Dark comedy" as well as it's synonym "Black
humour" are fairly inocuous terms, but applied to
Shakespeare, I think that the examples that KQWst gave are
fairly on target, but yours aren't all bad, either.
What Joseph needs to do is define his term succinctly, then
try to find examples. I recommend starting with a good
general glossary of literary terms. Personally, I think
there are dark humour elements on all of the plays, but that
not a single play can be said to have that as a central
theme: you only see that in modern theatre of the absurd.
trag·i·com·e·dy (tr˛j”ą-kĽm“ą-d¶) n., pl.
trag·i·com·e·dies. 1. A drama combining elements of tragedy
and comedy. 2. The genre made up of such works. 3. An
incident or a situation having both comic and tragic
elements. [French tragicomédie, from Italian tragicommedia,
from Late Latin tragic˝moedia, short for Latin
tragicoc˝moedia : tragicus, tragic; see TRAGIC + c˝moedia,
comedy; see COMEDY.] --trag”i·com“ic (-kĽm“ąk) or
trag”i·com“i·cal (-ą-k…l) adj. --trag”i·com“i·cal·ly
adv.(American Heritage Dictionary)
black humor n. 1. The juxtaposition, as in writing or
drama, of morbid or absurd elements with comical or farcical
ones, especially so as to produce a shocking or disturbing
effect. 2. The literary genre employing this technique.
--black humorist n.(American Heritage Dictionary)
Xanthippe
Brinklow Pottery
> Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
> I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
> (URLS maybe) that could help me out.
>
> Thanks very much,
>
> J.O.
I think possibly there is some confusion about "dark comedies" and
"problem plays". Far be it from me to put a decisive label on any of the
plays, but generally I understand dark comedies to mean for example
Twelfth Night, where although a jolly good time is apparently had by
all:i) the play opens and is riddled with images of surfeit and
ill-health, and even though I think the underlying suggestion is a rude
wordplay on "dying" from an excess of love (ie sexual fulfillment) one
cannot disassociate the general trend in Shakespeare that any kind of
excess is morally unhealthy and means there's real trouble ahead.
ii)Malvolio is "sick of self-love" , and we join in the ribaldry and
merriment to fool him, until Fabian says in Act III "Why we shall make
him mad indeed" and Maria's "The house will be the quieter" turns the
joke sour with it's genuine cruelty (earlier the sport with Malvoliot
had been likened to bear-baiting).
iii)"Madness" is a strand throughout and Feste's role is a cross between
the lord of misrule and the wise fool - he seems to me to be the
"bridge" between the two worlds of wonder and obsession, of harmless
fun and the terrifying anarchy of total chaos. Malvolio's "dark house"
is one we all potentially might share.
iv)Although on the surface, the lovers pair off, the and all seems to be
well that ends well, almost the last comment in the play is Malvolio's
"I'll be revenged on the whole pack of you" - played well, this is
chilling. And as Feste has just remarked "..the whirligig of time brings
in his revenges". The sorry state of Man is that he/she will make the
same errors, due to the same inherent flaws again and again and thus the
fabric of any ordered society is flimsy.
Hardly comic. And yet what else can we do but laugh.
I find this ambiguity in all of the "comedies" to a greater or lesser
degree.
The problem plays however seem to be for example those like Measure for
Measure, which although nominally conforming to the comic mode of
misunderstanding, duplicity and folly eventually ironed out, contains
so little to laugh at and indeed is closer to tragedy most of the time.
There is a great dark cloud of menace hanging over the play which is not
entirely dissipated at its close. I think it is perhaps the difference
between satire and farce. You may laugh at the former, but you (should
if it's effective satire) feel jolly uneasy about it.
I spend hours mentally categorising the plays, and in the end, I think
you have to seek the common thread in them as a whole, and see them as
facets of a very similar but differently explored view of the human
condition.
Diane
Amanda Elizabeth Koh
i am a 3rd year English Literature student from Singapore.... i enjoy
Shakespearean works immensely..... here's me trying to answer your
question..... still rather new to this newsgroup thingee here! :-)
Dark shakespearean dark comedies are those like 'The Tempest' where the
element of tragedy is predominant, and would have been the consequence if
the protagonists had the capability to see their actions and desires
through.
Another dark comedy would be 'As You Like It' which is really a great satire
on elizabethan conventions, and while poking fun at the court, conveys the
dark elements of it's corruption and mercenary peoples.
hope that answers your question.
Amanda
Joseph Occhiogrosso wrote in message <35e6f02f...@news.pipeline.com>...
Robert Stonehouse
>Joseph Occhiogrosso wrote:
>
>> Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
>> I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
>> (URLS maybe) that could help me out.
>
>"problem plays".
Is the trouble that we are trying to apply modern categories to
older plays?
Chambers' Dictionary: 'Black comedy; a 'piece noire' (Jean Anouilh),
a play in which, under fantasy and grotesque humour, the hopeless
world of reality is clearly seen; also a comedy about dreadful
events; a film of either type.' That is, it is a post-1945 thing.
Emile Legouis says of Shakespeare 'At the same time Shakespeare
wrote other comedies, but even these have a tinge of bitterness:
All's Well that Ends Well, Measure for Measure, Troilus and
Cressida. This was the period of Shakespeare's most powerful work,
but throughout he views nature and life from the same sombre
standpoint.' This may seem to fit Chambers' definition, but we must
not assimilate these plays to a post-war black comedy - that is not
what they were meant to be.
'Problem plays' date, I think, from about 1890-1910. Emile Legouis
on Bernard Shaw: 'he pursues his ideas unperturbed to their extreme
conclusions, and revels in paradox. He delights in ridiculing,
upsetting, scandalizing, astonishing his public. He challenged it,
laughed at its tender feelings...Shaw found an entirely new form for
his plays. They are really dialogues in which revolutionary ideas
are developed.'
Whether to apply these terms to a Shakespeare play is a matter for
our choice. They would have meant nothing to the author. 'Measure
for Measure' is difficult; who is right and who is wrong? Is anyone
really right? So it can look like the conflict between the
Salvationist and the armaments manufacturer in Shaw's 'Major
Barbara'. But did Shakespeare write it for that purpose, as Shaw
certainly did? Certainly not. ('Measure for Measure' is a problem
for other reasons when it comes to reading it in schools.)
ew...@bcs.org.uk
Brinklow Pottery
Robert Stonehouse wrote:
> Brinklow Pottery <diane....@virgin.net> wrote:
> >Joseph Occhiogrosso wrote:
> >
> >> Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
> >> I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
> >> (URLS maybe) that could help me out.
> >
> >I think possibly there is some confusion about "dark comedies" and
> >"problem plays".
>
> Is the trouble that we are trying to apply modern categories to
> older plays?
> Chambers' Dictionary: 'Black comedy; a 'piece noire' (Jean Anouilh),
> a play in which, under fantasy and grotesque humour, the hopeless
> world of reality is clearly seen; also a comedy about dreadful
> events; a film of either type.' That is, it is a post-1945 thing.
I don't think anyone could take "dark comedies" as "piece noire"; they
are, as you say, a totally different concept. I think "dark" in this
sense means that at the heart of some comedies is a grim view of human
nature and at best a dubious trust in the power of organised societies
to contain the worst aspects of it.
> Emile Legouis says of Shakespeare 'At the same time Shakespeare
> wrote other comedies, but even these have a tinge of bitterness:
> All's Well that Ends Well, Measure for Measure, Troilus and
> Cressida. This was the period of Shakespeare's most powerful work,
> but throughout he views nature and life from the same sombre
> standpoint.'
I don't find bitterness at all, but I do find an acute eye for human
frailty and to some extent, a sympathy with it, but not much confidence
that things will ever get much better
> 'Problem plays' date, I think, from about 1890-1910. Emile Legouis
> on Bernard Shaw: 'he pursues his ideas unperturbed to their extreme
> conclusions, and revels in paradox. He delights in ridiculing,
> upsetting, scandalizing, astonishing his public. He challenged it,
> laughed at its tender feelings...Shaw found an entirely new form for
> his plays. They are really dialogues in which revolutionary ideas
> are developed.'
>
> Whether to apply these terms to a Shakespeare play is a matter for
> our choice. They would have meant nothing to the author. 'Measure
> for Measure' is difficult; who is right and who is wrong? Is anyone
> really right? So it can look like the conflict between the
> Salvationist and the armaments manufacturer in Shaw's 'Major
> Barbara'. But did Shakespeare write it for that purpose, as Shaw
> certainly did? Certainly not.
M for M is very problematical in that no one emerges totally unscathed,
but I do think its point is to show that the process of finding a
compromise between an unrealistic ideal of "good" and an acceptance of
evil, is not an easy or painless one. I feel Angelo's "sin" is natural
(ie lust), but because he can't or won't acknowledge it, it "breeds" in
him only an evil. On the other hand, Duke Vincenzio is only slightly
less reprehensible in that his excessive lenience has allowed corruption
to flourish.
> ('Measure for Measure' is a problem
> for other reasons when it comes to reading it in schools.)
Because of the lust/rape theme? I have found it received with almost
incredulous delight by Sixth Form students. (The more especially in one
play we watched where Barnadine ran across the stage mother naked!)
Diane.
Robert Stonehouse
...
>
>M for M is very problematical in that no one emerges totally unscathed,
>but I do think its point is to show that the process of finding a
>compromise between an unrealistic ideal of "good" and an acceptance of
>evil, is not an easy or painless one. I feel Angelo's "sin" is natural
>(ie lust), but because he can't or won't acknowledge it, it "breeds" in
>him only an evil. On the other hand, Duke Vincenzio is only slightly
>less reprehensible in that his excessive lenience has allowed corruption
>to flourish.
I may be the only person who ever had a 'problem' about where the
title of this play came from, but the first occurrence of 'measure
for measure' occurred to me only the other day: Matthew 7.1-2:
'Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.'
There is a lot of judging done in Measure for Measure, and most of
the judges come off pretty badly. The executioner by contrast comes
out as an honest craftsman in an unpopular job, conscious of his
worth and proud of his skill.
ew...@bcs.org.uk
Andreas Schlenger
>
> Joseph Occhiogrosso wrote:
>
> > Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
> > I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
> > (URLS maybe) that could help me out.
> >
> >
> > J.O.
>
> I think possibly there is some confusion about "dark comedies" and
> plays, but generally I understand dark comedies to mean for example
> Twelfth Night, where although a jolly good time is apparently had by
> all:i) the play opens and is riddled with images of surfeit and
One: The "problem plays" (AFAIK) are *Measure for Measure*,
*All's Well That Ends Well* and *Troilus and Cressida*. They may
be described as "dark plays" as well, since their heroes /
heroines have to go through a number of rather unpleasant and
even dangerous adventures before the (not always so) happy end.
They are dark indeed, and they are called comedies - probably
because they are NOT tragedies (no tragic hero who dies at the
end) and NOT histories (they don't deal with English kings).
I wouldn't call *Twelfth Night* a dark comedy. Of course there
are all these nasty jokes going on, there IS the prevalent
atmosphere of loss, but don't we find elements like these in all
Shakespearean comedies?
*CoE*: Egeus is threatened with the death penalty if he does not
find his relatives.
*TGV*: Proteus is untrue both to his friend and lover.
*ToS*: Noblemen play a nasty trick on a drunkard; Katherine's
spirit is broken.
*MSND*: Hermia must die if she refuses Demetrius; humans are toys
for supernatural spirits.
*MWW*: Ford is almost driven mad by jealousy; Falstaff becomes
the victim of a joke similar to the one played on Malvolio.
*MoV*: Shylock is the victim of racism; Antonio is in danger of
becoming the victim of Shylock.
*MAAN*: Hero is the innocent victim of Don John's plot.
*AYLI*: The forest of Arden is the sanctuary for people cast away
from society by their evil enemies.
All these plays have their tragic or dark undercurrents. Are they
all dark comedies?
Regards,
Andreas.
Xanthippe Yorick
Just chiming in again. I happen to liek definitions...
Andreas Schlenger wrote:
>
> Brinklow Pottery schrieb:
> >
> > Joseph Occhiogrosso wrote:
> >
> > > Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
No, I don't think we can.
This is the first problem. Look at what Joseph wants. A
"Shakespearean dark comedy." These terms are ambiguous and
somewhat contradictory. Joseph isn't working with accurately
defined literary terms.
As far as I know, "dark comedy" is a modern term of literary
criticism taht is synonymous with "black humor":
black humor n. 1. The juxtaposition, as in writing or drama,
of morbid or absurd elements with comical or farcical ones,
especially so as to produce a shocking or disturbing effect.
2. The literary genre employing this technique. --black
humorist n. (American Heritage dictionary.)
Here's yet another problem for Joseph. I think you'll
probably agree with me that there are elements of "black
humour" in *all* of Shakespare's plays, the tragedies
included. Macbeth has several lines that are darkly
humourous, for example. The dark double entendres of Hamlet
are another. Yet, we don't define these plays as "dark" or
"black humour" per se because these elements don't dominate
the play and serve as a central theme. The only example I
can think of is a modern play, Stoppard's "Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern Are Dead," where dark humour is the central
focus of the play.
> > > I'd also like a listing of such plays and any further referance's
> > > (URLS maybe) that could help me out.
> > >
> > > Thanks very much,
> > >
> > > J.O.
> >
> > I think possibly there is some confusion about "dark comedies" and
> > "problem plays". Far be it from me to put a decisive label on any of the
> > plays, but generally I understand dark comedies to mean for example
> > Twelfth Night, where although a jolly good time is apparently had by
> > all:i) the play opens and is riddled with images of surfeit and
> > ill-health, (...)
Let me add (again) here that there is also a confusion about
"dark comedies" and "tragicomedies." Here's the definiton of
tragicomedy, Andreas:
trag·i·com·e·dy (tr˛j”ą-kĽm“ą-d¶) n., pl.
trag·i·com·e·dies. 1. A drama combining elements of tragedy
and comedy. 2. The genre made up of such works. 3. An
incident or a situation having both comic and tragic
elements. [French tragicomédie, from Italian tragicommedia,
from Late Latin tragic˝moedia, short for Latin
tragicoc˝moedia : tragicus, tragic; see TRAGIC + c˝moedia,
comedy; see COMEDY.]
>
> One: The "problem plays" (AFAIK) are *Measure for Measure*,
> *All's Well That Ends Well* and *Troilus and Cressida*. They may
> be described as "dark plays" as well, since their heroes /
> heroines have to go through a number of rather unpleasant and
> even dangerous adventures before the (not always so) happy end.
> They are dark indeed, and they are called comedies - probably
> because they are NOT tragedies (no tragic hero who dies at the
> end) and NOT histories (they don't deal with English kings).
>
> I wouldn't call *Twelfth Night* a dark comedy.
Actually- I think I agree with Diane on this one. I get the
impression that the jokes are dark and have a shocking
quality to them- that would be "dark" humour. I also agree
with her, and said so earlier- that it is awkward to apply a
modern term like "dark comedy" to Shakespeare's plays- they
don't quite match up. That's why I'm not going to labe 12th
Night as either a tragicomedy or a "dark comedy" I'm just
not sure. I *do* think "Winter's Tale" fits the definiton of
tragicomedy " rather nicely, however.
Of course there
> are all these nasty jokes going on, there IS the prevalent
> atmosphere of loss, but don't we find elements like these in all
> Shakespearean comedies?
YES_ but you've stretched the definiton to the point to
where it could include the tragedies as well, IMHO, Andreas.
This is just a point of semantics, but that's what we're
doing, isn't it?
The way you've described the comedies below- you could
easily include the tragedies in your list, I think. It is
more of a matter of emphasis- how much is the dark side of
life presented as compare to the lighter side. Even more
important- does anyone die? I notice that Hermia and Juliet
commit the same infraction against parental authority- they
defy their father's match for them and seek to marry a man
of their own choosing. MND is a comedy because Hermia and
her lover live, whereas R&J is tragic because the young
lovers die. Both plays incorporate "dark humour," double
entendres, as well as an atmosphere of loss. The treatment
of the characters, especially whether they die or not is the
defining factor.
Here's a definiton of tragedy, if you don't believe me:
trag·e·dy (tr˛j“ą-d¶) n., pl. trag·e·dies. 1.a. A drama or
literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin
or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a
tragic flaw, a moral weakness, or an inability to cope with
unfavorable circumstances. b. The genre made up of such
works. c. The art or theory of writing or producing these
works. 2. A play, film, television program, or other
narrative work that portrays or depicts calamitous events
and has an unhappy but meaningful ending. 3. A disastrous
event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury
to life: an expedition that ended in tragedy, with all hands
lost at sea. 4. A tragic aspect or element. (American
Heritage Dictionary)
Focus on number 1 to see what I'm talking about. I know you
pointed this out above- that you know what a "tragedy" is,
and what a "history play" is- I just wanted to flesh out
your point a little further. Sure, these plays have an
element of loss, in addition to comic passages- but this
deosn't make them different from the tragedies; the
suffering of the protagonists does. More than that, though,
is the amount of humour; comedies are simply more comical
than tragedies. Both may have elements of humour, whether
dark or light, but it is the emphasis, the balance of the
humour to the sadder elements, that tips the scale toward
one definition or another. Perhaps this is something you may
have overlooked, Andreas...
>
> *CoE*: Egeus is threatened with the death penalty if he does not
> find his relatives.
> *TGV*: Proteus is untrue both to his friend and lover.
> *ToS*: Noblemen play a nasty trick on a drunkard; Katherine's
> spirit is broken.
> *MSND*: Hermia must die if she refuses Demetrius; humans are toys
> for supernatural spirits.
> *MWW*: Ford is almost driven mad by jealousy; Falstaff becomes
> the victim of a joke similar to the one played on Malvolio.
> *MoV*: Shylock is the victim of racism; Antonio is in danger of
> becoming the victim of Shylock.
> *MAAN*: Hero is the innocent victim of Don John's plot.
> *AYLI*: The forest of Arden is the sanctuary for people cast away
> from society by their evil enemies.
>
> All these plays have their tragic or dark undercurrents. Are they
> all dark comedies?
Here's my response, my new point, and my largest reason for
posting to you:
I think that they are simply comedies. The term may be quite
broader than you think it is:
com·e·dy (kĽm“ą-d¶) n., pl. com·e·dies. Abbr. com. 1.a. A
dramatic work that is light and often humorous or satirical
in tone and that usually contains a happy resolution of the
thematic conflict. b. The genre made up of such works. 2. A
literary or cinematic work of a comic nature or that uses
the themes or methods of comedy. 3. Popular entertainment
composed of jokes, satire, or humorous performance. 4. The
art of composing or performing comedy. 5. A humorous element
of life or literature: the human comedy of political
campaigns. 6. A humorous occurrence. --attributive. Often
used to modify another noun: a comedy writer; a comedy show.
--idiom. comedy of errors. A ludicrous event or sequence of
events: The candidate's campaign turned out to be a
political comedy of errors(American Heritage Dictionary)
"Comedy" has always struck me as the hardest type of play to
define. The question of "what is a comedy" can be stretched
back to "what is funny?" Robert A. Heinlein thinks that
nothing is funny- that it's all tragedy- it's just how you
react to it- that laughing and crying are so similar as not
to be genuinely different... but then again, he was getting
senile at the time he said this... ;-)
BTW, I really like this discussion, and I appreciate the
thought and effort you've put into your posts, Andreas, and
everyone else.
Regards,
Xanthippe
MENTOR
refer to *All's Well that Ends Well*, *Measure for Measure*,
and *Troilus and Cressida*. See, for example, R. A. Foakes'
book *Shakespeare--The Dark Comedies to the Last Plays*
(London: Routledge, 1971). MENTOR (:-)
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Sibylle Luise Binder wrote:
> Dear Joseph,
>
>
> > Could anyone define what a Shakespearian dark comedy is?
>
> I think the term "dark comedy" means plays like "Winter Tales", "The
> Tempest" or "The Merchant of Venice", who are definded as "comedy",
> but with pretty "serious" subjects and tragical "heroes".
>