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Roberto, Lucanio, Gorinius, and Lamilia, in Greene's Groat's-worth of Wit
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Jim F.
May 2, 2013, 3:01:44 AM5/2/13
to
Robert Greene used "S. George" to link with George Peele as the breaking
point to solve the three poets. Peele is sealed via sound play of peer
and peel in the first three lines.
And thou no less deserving than the other two, [peer]
in some things rarer, in nothing inferior; [peer]
driven (as myself) to extreme shifts, [peel]
a little have I to say to thee:
and were it not an idolatrous oath,
I would swear by sweet S. George, [George Peele]
In another set of names Greene did the same with Roberto (Robert ended
with O) as the breaking point.
Lucanio, brother of Roberto
Lucanio as Lucani is similar to Roberto as Robert. Lucani was a tribe
in the ancient Lucania area now called Basilicata. Lucanio is a perfect
anagram of you-clan. Greene called the three poets his "Quondam
acquaintance" because Greene was no more a member of that clan.
It's reflected in Roberto being forsaken by Lamilia and Lucanio.
Gorinius, father of Roberto
Gorinius the usurer is based on Quirinius, the governor of Syria
conducted a tax census for Augustus. Gorinius=origin-us fits his role
as the father (origin) of Roberto and Lucanio (us). Lucanio is a usurer
for he followed his father's will. Roberto "having but a broker's place,
asked a lender's reward" (said Lamilia) is a usurer in general.
Lamilia, who forsook Roberto
In Greek mythology, Lamia was a queen turned to a monster devouring
children (creations of poets). In this pamphlet Greene compared Lamilia
with Scylla, daughter of Lamia. This supports the anagram of Lamilia as
il-Lamia. The adding of il (obsolete form of ill) makes Lamilia=my-allay,
which should be Greene's intention, that this ill-woman is Greene's (my)
inferior alien element (allay).
These perfect anagrams tell how they affect Robert Greene, but not their
real names, which would be hard to make, easy to break.
point to solve the three poets. Peele is sealed via sound play of peer
and peel in the first three lines.
And thou no less deserving than the other two, [peer]
in some things rarer, in nothing inferior; [peer]
driven (as myself) to extreme shifts, [peel]
a little have I to say to thee:
and were it not an idolatrous oath,
I would swear by sweet S. George, [George Peele]
In another set of names Greene did the same with Roberto (Robert ended
with O) as the breaking point.
Lucanio, brother of Roberto
Lucanio as Lucani is similar to Roberto as Robert. Lucani was a tribe
in the ancient Lucania area now called Basilicata. Lucanio is a perfect
anagram of you-clan. Greene called the three poets his "Quondam
acquaintance" because Greene was no more a member of that clan.
It's reflected in Roberto being forsaken by Lamilia and Lucanio.
Gorinius, father of Roberto
Gorinius the usurer is based on Quirinius, the governor of Syria
conducted a tax census for Augustus. Gorinius=origin-us fits his role
as the father (origin) of Roberto and Lucanio (us). Lucanio is a usurer
for he followed his father's will. Roberto "having but a broker's place,
asked a lender's reward" (said Lamilia) is a usurer in general.
Lamilia, who forsook Roberto
In Greek mythology, Lamia was a queen turned to a monster devouring
children (creations of poets). In this pamphlet Greene compared Lamilia
with Scylla, daughter of Lamia. This supports the anagram of Lamilia as
il-Lamia. The adding of il (obsolete form of ill) makes Lamilia=my-allay,
which should be Greene's intention, that this ill-woman is Greene's (my)
inferior alien element (allay).
These perfect anagrams tell how they affect Robert Greene, but not their
real names, which would be hard to make, easy to break.
Jim F.
May 10, 2013, 11:02:55 PM5/10/13
to
Lamilia's Fable tells how Greene joined the Wilton Circle. It begins at
the end of Martin Marprelate controversy. Greene was an anti-Martinist.
The Fox on a time came to visit the Gray, partly for kindred,
chiefly for craft, and finding the hole empty of all other company,
saving only one Badger enquiring the cause of his solitariness:
he described the sudden death of his dam and sire with the rest of
his consorts.
- Fox, partly for kindred: this line spells (=) Earl of Oxford.
partly: a hint that fox is a part of earl oF OXford or OXFord.
- kindred: a mock on the escape of Oxford the Fox at the end.
"Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford" will appear then fully. This
implies that Oxford was involved in Shakespeare but escaped.
- Gray: a badger; the in-between color of the Puritan and Catholic.
- all other company: (al_ _t_er __mp_ny) =Martin Marprelate; and
=anti-Martin Marprelate. Martin is a perfect anagram of anti-Mr.
Mr can be Master, as "clergy masters" or "my masters of the clergy"
in Marprelate tracts.
- empty: Marprelate controversy ended in 1589, and ended the need
for anti-Martinists.
- Badger: a bad edger; a poet who incites on the edge of censorship.
- chiefly for craft: =Catholic. Oxford came mainly to seek poets to
play craft (not so direct as Marprelate) on the Catholic chief.
- one Badger enquiring the cause: =Robert Greene. His name appears
later again when the Badger tried to strut on his tiptoes to look
like a human. He was "worried" (harassed, silenced) at the end.
- dam and sire: alluding to the Queen and Archbishop, for Greene was
hired privately by the authorities.
- sudden death: disappeared at once without taking care of Greene,
something he expected from a dam and sire.
- rest of his consorts: other anti-Martinists, like Thomas Nashe.
Philip Sidney used one-way anagram in Pembroke's Arcadia (e.g.
"Philisides and Mira" =Philip Sidney and Mary).
After his death in 1586, Mary Sidney and Wilton Circle continued this
to commemorate him, e.g. "Philip, a Bird of Venus" =Philip Sidney,
and "Minded Sparrow" =Mary Sidney. If Robert Greene had been a Wilton
poet, he sould know the method.
the end of Martin Marprelate controversy. Greene was an anti-Martinist.
The Fox on a time came to visit the Gray, partly for kindred,
chiefly for craft, and finding the hole empty of all other company,
saving only one Badger enquiring the cause of his solitariness:
he described the sudden death of his dam and sire with the rest of
his consorts.
- Fox, partly for kindred: this line spells (=) Earl of Oxford.
partly: a hint that fox is a part of earl oF OXford or OXFord.
- kindred: a mock on the escape of Oxford the Fox at the end.
"Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford" will appear then fully. This
implies that Oxford was involved in Shakespeare but escaped.
- Gray: a badger; the in-between color of the Puritan and Catholic.
- all other company: (al_ _t_er __mp_ny) =Martin Marprelate; and
=anti-Martin Marprelate. Martin is a perfect anagram of anti-Mr.
Mr can be Master, as "clergy masters" or "my masters of the clergy"
in Marprelate tracts.
- empty: Marprelate controversy ended in 1589, and ended the need
for anti-Martinists.
- Badger: a bad edger; a poet who incites on the edge of censorship.
- chiefly for craft: =Catholic. Oxford came mainly to seek poets to
play craft (not so direct as Marprelate) on the Catholic chief.
- one Badger enquiring the cause: =Robert Greene. His name appears
later again when the Badger tried to strut on his tiptoes to look
like a human. He was "worried" (harassed, silenced) at the end.
- dam and sire: alluding to the Queen and Archbishop, for Greene was
hired privately by the authorities.
- sudden death: disappeared at once without taking care of Greene,
something he expected from a dam and sire.
- rest of his consorts: other anti-Martinists, like Thomas Nashe.
Philip Sidney used one-way anagram in Pembroke's Arcadia (e.g.
"Philisides and Mira" =Philip Sidney and Mary).
After his death in 1586, Mary Sidney and Wilton Circle continued this
to commemorate him, e.g. "Philip, a Bird of Venus" =Philip Sidney,
and "Minded Sparrow" =Mary Sidney. If Robert Greene had been a Wilton
poet, he sould know the method.
marco
May 18, 2013, 5:20:14 PM5/18/13
to
Jim F.
May 21, 2013, 10:52:04 AM5/21/13
to
Delphrigus is based on Delphinus, a dolphin that saved Arion the poet in
Greek myth. Greene or Nashe changed it to Delphrigus, i.e. Delph-rig-us,
one who would save poets but hide them, bury their fame. (Delph is a
variant of delf, a hole or grave; to rig is to furnish.) Hyphen, hidden
or explicit, can convert a name, like Shakespeare to shake-spear.
Greene insulted Lamilia, that annoyed some after the publication.
Lamilia and Lucanio played Hazard, a game of risk. Lamilia is a player
and has a tiger's heart wrapped in a woman's/player's hide.
Greene didn't name the Player, who tells Roberto, "I am as famous for
Delphrigus, and the King of Fairies, as ever was any of my time."
The Player is saying that he has the power to save poets like Delphinus.
The adding of "King of Fairies" helps to affirm Delphrigus' true name.
A player can be one who plays games, not necessary an actor. What the
Player has thundered on the stage is his own life story performed by
his play company. Roberto hints twice that the Player isn't an actor.
"A player," quoth Roberto, "I took you rather for a Gentleman of
great living," . . . "it seems to me your voice is nothing gracious."
Greene played names and words intelligently. The Player was not named
to cope with Greene's design. Lamilia's fable is the earliest and most
important story related to Shakespeare.
Greek myth. Greene or Nashe changed it to Delphrigus, i.e. Delph-rig-us,
one who would save poets but hide them, bury their fame. (Delph is a
variant of delf, a hole or grave; to rig is to furnish.) Hyphen, hidden
or explicit, can convert a name, like Shakespeare to shake-spear.
Greene insulted Lamilia, that annoyed some after the publication.
Lamilia and Lucanio played Hazard, a game of risk. Lamilia is a player
and has a tiger's heart wrapped in a woman's/player's hide.
Greene didn't name the Player, who tells Roberto, "I am as famous for
Delphrigus, and the King of Fairies, as ever was any of my time."
The Player is saying that he has the power to save poets like Delphinus.
The adding of "King of Fairies" helps to affirm Delphrigus' true name.
A player can be one who plays games, not necessary an actor. What the
Player has thundered on the stage is his own life story performed by
his play company. Roberto hints twice that the Player isn't an actor.
"A player," quoth Roberto, "I took you rather for a Gentleman of
great living," . . . "it seems to me your voice is nothing gracious."
Greene played names and words intelligently. The Player was not named
to cope with Greene's design. Lamilia's fable is the earliest and most
important story related to Shakespeare.
marco
May 21, 2013, 9:04:52 PM5/21/13
to
Jim F.
Jun 3, 2015, 10:42:32 PM6/3/15
to
Names in Lamilia's Fable are done via one-way anagram; e.g,
"wanton ewe straggling from the fold" is Mary Sidney from Wilton.
fox: Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere (1550-1604)
badger, Gray: Robert Greene (1558-92)
ewe: Mary Sidney (1561-1621)
bell-wether: Henry Herbert (1538-1601)
whelp: Thomas Walsingham (1561-1630)
shepherds: the authorities
dogs: censors, critics (of the Catholic)
badgers: Wilton poets
Lamilia's Fable
The Fox on a time came to visit the Gray, partly for kindred,
chiefly for craft, and finding the hole empty of all other company,
saving only one Badger enquiring the cause of his solitariness:
he described the sudden death of his dam and sire with the rest of
his consorts.
The Fox made a Friday face, counterfeiting sorrow: but concluding
that death's stroke was inevitable persuaded him to seek some fit
mate wherewith to match. The badger soon agreed, so forth they went,
and in their way met with a wanton ewe straggling from the fold.
The Fox bade the Badger play the tall stripling, and strut on his
tiptoes: for (quoth he) this ewe is lady of all these lands and her
brother chief bell-wether of sundry flocks.
To be short, by the Fox's persuasion there would be a perpetual league,
between her harmless kindred and all other devouring beasts, for that
the Badger was to them all allied: seduced she yielded: and the Fox
conducted them to the Badger's habitation. Where drawing her aside under
colour of exhortation, pulled out her throat to satisfy his greedy thirst.
Here I should note, a young whelp that viewed their walk, informed
the shepherds of what happened. They followed, and trained the Fox
and Badger to the hole: the Fox afore had craftily conveyed himself
away: the shepherds found the Badger raving for the ewe's murder.
His lamentation being held for counterfeit, was by the shepherds' dog
worried. The Fox escaped: the Ewe was spoiled: and ever since, between
the Badgers and the dogs hath continued a mortal enmity.
***
"The Fox escaped" -- Earl of Oxford initiated a plot similar to
Martin Marprelate, but he escaped early.
"wanton ewe straggling from the fold" is Mary Sidney from Wilton.
fox: Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere (1550-1604)
badger, Gray: Robert Greene (1558-92)
ewe: Mary Sidney (1561-1621)
bell-wether: Henry Herbert (1538-1601)
whelp: Thomas Walsingham (1561-1630)
shepherds: the authorities
dogs: censors, critics (of the Catholic)
badgers: Wilton poets
Lamilia's Fable
The Fox on a time came to visit the Gray, partly for kindred,
chiefly for craft, and finding the hole empty of all other company,
saving only one Badger enquiring the cause of his solitariness:
he described the sudden death of his dam and sire with the rest of
his consorts.
that death's stroke was inevitable persuaded him to seek some fit
mate wherewith to match. The badger soon agreed, so forth they went,
and in their way met with a wanton ewe straggling from the fold.
The Fox bade the Badger play the tall stripling, and strut on his
tiptoes: for (quoth he) this ewe is lady of all these lands and her
brother chief bell-wether of sundry flocks.
To be short, by the Fox's persuasion there would be a perpetual league,
between her harmless kindred and all other devouring beasts, for that
the Badger was to them all allied: seduced she yielded: and the Fox
conducted them to the Badger's habitation. Where drawing her aside under
colour of exhortation, pulled out her throat to satisfy his greedy thirst.
Here I should note, a young whelp that viewed their walk, informed
the shepherds of what happened. They followed, and trained the Fox
and Badger to the hole: the Fox afore had craftily conveyed himself
away: the shepherds found the Badger raving for the ewe's murder.
His lamentation being held for counterfeit, was by the shepherds' dog
worried. The Fox escaped: the Ewe was spoiled: and ever since, between
the Badgers and the dogs hath continued a mortal enmity.
***
"The Fox escaped" -- Earl of Oxford initiated a plot similar to
Martin Marprelate, but he escaped early.
Jim F.
Jan 26, 2016, 11:30:14 AM1/26/16
to
Number 99
Sonnet 99's 15 lines is based on Bible. Key words here are "receives sinners"
and "ninety and nine."
This man *receiveth sinners*, and eateth with them.
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them,
doth not leave the *ninety and nine* in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
(Luke 15:2-5)
The extra one line in sonnet 99 is a sinner, easy for any one to find.
The difficulty is to identify the six sinners: violet, lily, marjoram,
blushing rose, white rose, and nor-red-nor-white rose.
THe forward violet thus did I chide, [1]
Sweet theefe whence didst thou steale thy sweet that smels
If not from my loues breath, the purple pride,
Which on thy soft cheeke for complexion dwells?
In my loues veines thou hast too grosely died,
The Lillie I condemned for thy hand, [6]
And buds of marierom had stolne thy haire,
The Roses fearefully on thornes did stand,
Our blushing shame, an other white dispaire:
A third nor red, nor white, had stolne of both, [10]
And to his robbry had annext thy breath,
But for his theft in pride of all his growth
A vengfull canker eate him vp to death.
More flowers I noted, yet I none could see, [14]
But sweet, or culler it had stolne from thee.
One-way anagram is used by Wilton House poets to seal names consistently.
Like animals in Lamilia's Fable, the six flowers here seal six names.
This solution combines the secret of 15-line with its content.
"Forward violet" can spell Edward de Vere, who is the Fox in Lamilia's Fable.
This matches with what the Fox has done to the Ewe, or Edward de Vere to
Mary Sidney. "Forward" means both his _foremost_ participation in Shakespeare
project, and _immodest_ stealing of Wilton's works later.
Sonnet 99's 15 lines is based on Bible. Key words here are "receives sinners"
and "ninety and nine."
This man *receiveth sinners*, and eateth with them.
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them,
doth not leave the *ninety and nine* in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
(Luke 15:2-5)
The extra one line in sonnet 99 is a sinner, easy for any one to find.
The difficulty is to identify the six sinners: violet, lily, marjoram,
blushing rose, white rose, and nor-red-nor-white rose.
THe forward violet thus did I chide, [1]
Sweet theefe whence didst thou steale thy sweet that smels
If not from my loues breath, the purple pride,
Which on thy soft cheeke for complexion dwells?
In my loues veines thou hast too grosely died,
The Lillie I condemned for thy hand, [6]
And buds of marierom had stolne thy haire,
The Roses fearefully on thornes did stand,
Our blushing shame, an other white dispaire:
A third nor red, nor white, had stolne of both, [10]
And to his robbry had annext thy breath,
But for his theft in pride of all his growth
A vengfull canker eate him vp to death.
More flowers I noted, yet I none could see, [14]
But sweet, or culler it had stolne from thee.
One-way anagram is used by Wilton House poets to seal names consistently.
Like animals in Lamilia's Fable, the six flowers here seal six names.
This solution combines the secret of 15-line with its content.
"Forward violet" can spell Edward de Vere, who is the Fox in Lamilia's Fable.
This matches with what the Fox has done to the Ewe, or Edward de Vere to
Mary Sidney. "Forward" means both his _foremost_ participation in Shakespeare
project, and _immodest_ stealing of Wilton's works later.
ArtNea...@germanymail.com
Feb 15, 2016, 4:09:40 PM2/15/16
to
Jim F.
Mar 21, 2016, 8:40:40 AM3/21/16
to
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 5:09:40 AM UTC+8, ArtNea...@germanymail.com
...
> .
Can't comment, ArtNea, marco, Jim KQKnave, Jim Carroll and James D Carroll?
There are six sinners in sonnet 99: Violet, Lily, Marjoram, and three Roses.
Why _three_ Roses?
(A hint, they carry the same family name.)
...
> .
Can't comment, ArtNea, marco, Jim KQKnave, Jim Carroll and James D Carroll?
There are six sinners in sonnet 99: Violet, Lily, Marjoram, and three Roses.
Why _three_ Roses?
(A hint, they carry the same family name.)
Jim F.
May 7, 2016, 11:16:33 PM5/7/16
to
After Lamilia's Fable is Roberto's Tale in Greene's Groat's-worth of Wit.
Most characters are not named in the tale except Marian and Mother Gunby:
- an old Squire
- Squire's young daughter
- a Farmer
- Farmer's Son
- a young Gentleman
- Mother Gunby
- Marian, "Gunby's Daughter"
Its naming method follows Lamilia's Fable.
Marian contains the one-way anagram of Mary, or Marian == Mary.
Mother Gunby == Henry Herbert.
Gunby's Daughter Marian == Mary Sidney Herbert.
Marley, the Muse's Darling
Robert Greene gave his advice to George Peele and Christopher Marlowe in
his Groat's-worth of Wit. Some time later, Peele did the same to Marlowe.
Marley, the Muse's darling for thy verse,
Fit to write passions for the souls below,
If any wretched souls in passion speak?
Why go not all into the Elysian fields,
And leave this centre barren of repast, [5]
Unless in hope Augusta will restore
The wrongs that learning bears of covetousness,
And court's disdain, the enemy to art?
Leave, foolish lad, it mendeth not with words;
Nor herbs nor time such remedy affords. [10]
Marley, the Muse's darling for thy verse,
"Marley":: Christopher Marlowe.
"Muse's darling" == Mary Sidney.
Mary Sidney is a one-way anagram of "Muse's darling."
She is _the Muse_ here (the tenth Muse).
Fit to write passions for the souls below,
"fit":: qualify; adjust; supply;
"fit":: to force by fits or paroxysms out of (the usual place) (OED);
"fit":: a position of hardship, danger, or intense excitement (OED);
"fit":: a mortal crisis; a bodily state that betokens death (OED).
"the souls below":: the common audience, target of Shakespeare's plays.
If any wretched souls in passion speak?
"wretched, speak" == Shakespeare (who does the speaking job).
"any wretched souls" == Wilton House.
Why go not all into the Elysian fields,
"Elysian fields":: fields for the departed without return.
"all":: indicating Wilton House poets.
"Why go not all":: a rhetorical question. If Marlowe is happy after his
faked death in some Elysian fields, then all Wilton poets should go.
And leave this centre barren of repast, [5]
"barren of repast":: Wilton House cannot afford the "Why go not all."
Unless in hope Augusta will restore
Augustus (63 BC-14 AD) was a patron of literature (Virgil, Horace, Ovid).
"Augusta":: a title to the wife of Roman emperor.
"in hope Augusta":: indicating a powerful patroness in Peele's time.
"Augusta":: Mary Sidney, an august patroness.
The wrongs that learning bears of covetousness,
"that learning":: Mary Sidney's learning adventure in Shakespeare.
"covetousness":: she covets Marlowe's words, one of the "wrongs."
And court's disdain, the enemy to art?
"distaine" == Sidney.
"enemy to art == Mary (eneMY to ARt).
"court's disdain":: Pembroke's disdain.
Peele sees Mary Sidney as the enemy to art (another wrong).
Peele's advice to Marlowe in the next line after the wrongs.
Leave, foolish lad, it mendeth not with words;
"foolish lad":: Kit Marlowe.
"mendeth not with words":: Marlowe's hard working in the Elysian fields
for the Herberts cannot mend his sin.
Nor herbs nor time such remedy affords. [10]
This lines spells Mary Sidney Herbert and Henry Herbert.
"herbs nor time" == Herberts; == Henry Herbert.
"nor such remedy affords":: the Herberts cannot afford to restore Marlowe.
Like Greene, Peele used also one-way anagram, a mark of Wilton poets.
Most characters are not named in the tale except Marian and Mother Gunby:
- an old Squire
- Squire's young daughter
- a Farmer
- Farmer's Son
- a young Gentleman
- Mother Gunby
- Marian, "Gunby's Daughter"
Its naming method follows Lamilia's Fable.
Marian contains the one-way anagram of Mary, or Marian == Mary.
Mother Gunby == Henry Herbert.
Gunby's Daughter Marian == Mary Sidney Herbert.
Marley, the Muse's Darling
Robert Greene gave his advice to George Peele and Christopher Marlowe in
his Groat's-worth of Wit. Some time later, Peele did the same to Marlowe.
Marley, the Muse's darling for thy verse,
Fit to write passions for the souls below,
If any wretched souls in passion speak?
Why go not all into the Elysian fields,
And leave this centre barren of repast, [5]
Unless in hope Augusta will restore
The wrongs that learning bears of covetousness,
And court's disdain, the enemy to art?
Leave, foolish lad, it mendeth not with words;
Nor herbs nor time such remedy affords. [10]
Marley, the Muse's darling for thy verse,
"Marley":: Christopher Marlowe.
"Muse's darling" == Mary Sidney.
Mary Sidney is a one-way anagram of "Muse's darling."
She is _the Muse_ here (the tenth Muse).
Fit to write passions for the souls below,
"fit":: qualify; adjust; supply;
"fit":: to force by fits or paroxysms out of (the usual place) (OED);
"fit":: a position of hardship, danger, or intense excitement (OED);
"fit":: a mortal crisis; a bodily state that betokens death (OED).
"the souls below":: the common audience, target of Shakespeare's plays.
If any wretched souls in passion speak?
"wretched, speak" == Shakespeare (who does the speaking job).
"any wretched souls" == Wilton House.
Why go not all into the Elysian fields,
"Elysian fields":: fields for the departed without return.
"all":: indicating Wilton House poets.
"Why go not all":: a rhetorical question. If Marlowe is happy after his
faked death in some Elysian fields, then all Wilton poets should go.
And leave this centre barren of repast, [5]
"barren of repast":: Wilton House cannot afford the "Why go not all."
Unless in hope Augusta will restore
Augustus (63 BC-14 AD) was a patron of literature (Virgil, Horace, Ovid).
"Augusta":: a title to the wife of Roman emperor.
"in hope Augusta":: indicating a powerful patroness in Peele's time.
"Augusta":: Mary Sidney, an august patroness.
The wrongs that learning bears of covetousness,
"that learning":: Mary Sidney's learning adventure in Shakespeare.
"covetousness":: she covets Marlowe's words, one of the "wrongs."
And court's disdain, the enemy to art?
"distaine" == Sidney.
"enemy to art == Mary (eneMY to ARt).
"court's disdain":: Pembroke's disdain.
Peele sees Mary Sidney as the enemy to art (another wrong).
Peele's advice to Marlowe in the next line after the wrongs.
Leave, foolish lad, it mendeth not with words;
"foolish lad":: Kit Marlowe.
"mendeth not with words":: Marlowe's hard working in the Elysian fields
for the Herberts cannot mend his sin.
Nor herbs nor time such remedy affords. [10]
This lines spells Mary Sidney Herbert and Henry Herbert.
"herbs nor time" == Herberts; == Henry Herbert.
"nor such remedy affords":: the Herberts cannot afford to restore Marlowe.
Like Greene, Peele used also one-way anagram, a mark of Wilton poets.
marco
May 11, 2016, 10:57:50 PM5/11/16
to
marco
May 25, 2016, 7:29:31 PM5/25/16
to
groat
I take thy groat in earnest of revenge. King Henry V: V, i
Or any groat I hoarded to my use, King Henry VI, part II: III, i
Me a groat! King Henry V: V, i
Ay, leeks is good: hold you, there is a groat to King Henry V: V, i
A half-faced groat five hundred pound a year! King John: I, i
marc
I take thy groat in earnest of revenge. King Henry V: V, i
Or any groat I hoarded to my use, King Henry VI, part II: III, i
Me a groat! King Henry V: V, i
Ay, leeks is good: hold you, there is a groat to King Henry V: V, i
A half-faced groat five hundred pound a year! King John: I, i
marc
Jim F.
May 26, 2016, 9:38:41 AM5/26/16
to
On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 7:29:31 AM UTC+8, marco wrote:
...
The only way to defeat those who believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare,
is to solve lines they can't.
Lamilia's Fable and Roberto's Tale are two examples. They show the power
of one-way anagram. George Peele's advice to Christopher Marlowe is well
structured too.
http://wordplay-shakespeare.blogspot.com/2013/11/lamilias-fable-in-robert-greenes-groats.html
...
The only way to defeat those who believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare,
is to solve lines they can't.
Lamilia's Fable and Roberto's Tale are two examples. They show the power
of one-way anagram. George Peele's advice to Christopher Marlowe is well
structured too.
http://wordplay-shakespeare.blogspot.com/2013/11/lamilias-fable-in-robert-greenes-groats.html
graham.a...@btinternet.com
May 26, 2016, 10:32:32 AM5/26/16
to
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 14:38:41 UTC+1, Jim F. wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 7:29:31 AM UTC+8, marco wrote:
> ...
>
> The only way to defeat those who believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare,
> is to solve lines they can't.
>
You should have add "and PROVE IT".
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 7:29:31 AM UTC+8, marco wrote:
> ...
>
> The only way to defeat those who believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare,
> is to solve lines they can't.
>
Otherwise your "Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare" is spot on.
But what would looking at Robert Green's work tell you? Apart from the fact he didn't like Shakespeare, which means he knew the guy and therefore knew he could write plays. Otherwise why didn't he expose him as a fraud?
That's the problem with looking at other people to compose the plays. The thing has to be a secret. And if the numbskulls like Arthur Nutcase can work it out with a simple cypher code, or Big Jim (had a great big worm) with is anagrams, then surely so could everyone else back then.
From what I have seen of Big Jims worm infested pieces on here and Mr Nutcases repeat the same crap again bits, it doesn't take a University degree to figure out what they are doing!!
graham.a...@btinternet.com
May 26, 2016, 10:34:56 AM5/26/16
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Jim F.
May 27, 2016, 10:56:39 PM5/27/16
to
On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 10:32:32 PM UTC+8, graham.a...@btinternet.com wrote:
...
Your weakness is word's logic and lines that you can't explain.
People can debate historical events about Shakespeare forever,
but there is little room to play with difficult words.
Your "fel my name" mistake is a good example.
However, your question about Robert Greene is valid.
Robert Greene did expose Mary Sidney, who is Lamilia in the story sealed
by one-way anagram. Greene's book published only after his death.
He must use fable and seal names else no one dared to publish it,
for the Herberts were powerful then, and connected with the spymaster
Walsingham via Philip Sidney's marriage. They were all committed Protestants.
Shakespeare is the code name of Wilton House poets.
William Shakespeare is their front man, to be sacrificed when needed.
The Herberts maintained Shakespeare, the reason Wilton House erected a
Shakespeare statue in 1743.
...
> But what would looking at Robert Green's work tell you? Apart from the fact he didn't like Shakespeare, which means he knew the guy and therefore knew he could write plays. Otherwise why didn't he expose him as a fraud?
...
Your weakness is word's logic and lines that you can't explain.
People can debate historical events about Shakespeare forever,
but there is little room to play with difficult words.
Your "fel my name" mistake is a good example.
However, your question about Robert Greene is valid.
Robert Greene did expose Mary Sidney, who is Lamilia in the story sealed
by one-way anagram. Greene's book published only after his death.
He must use fable and seal names else no one dared to publish it,
for the Herberts were powerful then, and connected with the spymaster
Walsingham via Philip Sidney's marriage. They were all committed Protestants.
Shakespeare is the code name of Wilton House poets.
William Shakespeare is their front man, to be sacrificed when needed.
The Herberts maintained Shakespeare, the reason Wilton House erected a
Shakespeare statue in 1743.
marco
May 28, 2016, 1:23:14 AM5/28/16
to
> Your weakness is word's logic and lines that you can't explain.
> People can debate historical events about Shakespeare forever,
> but there is little room to play with difficult words.
> Your "fel my name" mistake is a good example.
>
> However, your question about Robert Greene is valid.
> Robert Greene did expose Mary Sidney, who is Lamilia in the story sealed
> by one-way anagram. Greene's book published only after his death.
> He must use fable and seal names else no one dared to publish it,
> for the Herberts were powerful then, and connected with the spymaster
> Walsingham via Philip Sidney's marriage. They were all committed Protestants.
>
> Shakespeare is the code name of Wilton House poets.
> William Shakespeare is their front man, to be sacrificed when needed.
>
> The Herberts maintained Shakespeare, the reason Wilton House erected a
> Shakespeare statue in 1743.
that would seem to be a strike against the use, or the invention of Anagrams
marc
graham.a...@btinternet.com
May 28, 2016, 8:36:33 AM5/28/16
to
It didn't even begin to become standardised till Doctor Johnson's Dictionary came out.
The Earl of Oxford didn't spell his name "Oxford" as Mr Nutcase keeps using SIDNI in his cipher thing that shows that Mary Sidney name was variable too.
You only have to look at George Talbot's letters to see he couldn't spell for nuts! And these were letters to Cecil. Incidentally Cecil himself had vary variable spelling.
By the way "F" and S where interchangeable as the "f" was known as the long S. It was never sounded as an "f" always an "s".
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/321980/how-exactly-was-the-long-s-used-and-why-did-people-stop-using-it?lq=1
Jim F.
May 28, 2016, 10:33:58 PM5/28/16
to
Long s (ſ) is not f; f and s cannot be interchanged.
If you knew that, you would've used the term "long s" long ago.
It's an absolute mistake, no way to twist.
marco,
Unfixed spelling in 1600 made anagrams easier to make,
harder to confirm. Anagrams I've found stand well.
You can challenge any one of them to disprove my theory.
I wish you can, truly.
One-way anagram is the key to open Shakespeare's secret.
The method can reason difficult lines that scholars can't.
It was created by Philip Sidney.
http://wordplay-shakespeare.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-beginning-and-end-of-shakespeare.html
marco
May 28, 2016, 11:05:57 PM5/28/16
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do you have any historical evidence, of the use of anagrams in 1600?
[anyone can make anagrams, as a hobby]
codes would make sense, for the Queen etc
marc
Jim F.
May 29, 2016, 1:38:17 PM5/29/16
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On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:05:57 AM UTC+8, marco wrote:
...
...
> so,
> do you have any historical evidence, of the use of anagrams in 1600?
> [anyone can make anagrams, as a hobby]
> codes would make sense, for the Queen etc
>
> marc
In following lines from Shakespeare,
> do you have any historical evidence, of the use of anagrams in 1600?
> [anyone can make anagrams, as a hobby]
> codes would make sense, for the Queen etc
>
> marc
James Gournie is an anagram of
Games Journey, telling readers that
Philip will start a journey of games.
BASTARD. James Gournie, wilt thou give us leave a while?
GOURNEY. Good leave good Philip.
BASTARD. Philip, sparrow, James,
There's toys abroad, anon I'll tell thee more.
"Toys" hints at games; "abroad" at journey.
This simple and obvious anagram will lead readers to
the play _Guy Earl of Warwick_ via Philip Sparrow,
and suggests readers that anagram is used there.
Anagram is the only way to reason these lines.
Many examples exist in Shakespeare.
graham.a...@btinternet.com
May 29, 2016, 1:51:54 PM5/29/16
to
Lets start with some Shakespeare ones:
Methink’st thou art a general offence and every man should beat thee.
Thou clay-brained guts, thou knotty-pated fool, thou whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch!
Your brain is as dry as the remainder biscuit after voyage.
marco
May 29, 2016, 5:19:14 PM5/29/16
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marco
Jun 16, 2016, 12:29:02 PM6/16/16
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Jim F.
Jun 24, 2016, 7:42:07 PM6/24/16
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Similar method is used by Wilton House poets.
In Robert Greene's Groats-Worth of Wit,
Lucanio as Roberto's brother equals to "o'Lucian" (like Lucianus in _Hamlet_);
Gorinius as Roberto's father equals to "gory-in-us" (and "origin-us").
Astrophel and Stella equals to "a strophe land astell."
strophe: a group of lines forming divisions of a lyric poem.
astell: to set up, set on foot, establish (OED).
Stella isn't Penelope Devereux but personified poetry.
Many such anagrams exist in Shakespeare, not always about authorship.
LORENZO. Who comes with her?
STEPHANO. None but a holy Hermit and *her maid*:
Here the "holy Hermit" indicates Portia.
Hermit equals to her-mit, hinted by her-m___ in "her maid";
mit is an obsolete form of might (OED).
"Hermit" plays for her-might, Portia's might in the trial;
"holy" is about her act of saving a Christian.
"Holy hermit" appears also in works of Spenser, Nashe, Lodge, etc.
The term's meaning depends on the context.
Similarly, Shelton and Heyden can be She-t'lon and He-deny;
here lon can be an obsolete form of loan or launch (OED).
This is the best way to solve Ben Jonson's On the Famous Voyage.
marco
Jun 25, 2016, 9:15:37 AM6/25/16
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Morten St. George
Jun 25, 2016, 11:46:24 AM6/25/16
to
On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:42:07 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Many such anagrams exist in Shakespeare, not always about authorship.
>
> LORENZO. Who comes with her?
> STEPHANO. None but a holy Hermit and *her maid*:
>
> Here the "holy Hermit" indicates Portia.
> Hermit equals to her-mit, hinted by her-m___ in "her maid";
> mit is an obsolete form of might (OED).
> "Hermit" plays for her-might, Portia's might in the trial;
I can follow your logic, but I have doubts that Shakespeare was expecting anyone to perceive that Portia (the first "her") was accompanied by herself (the holy Hermit). I think Shakespeare merely wanted to establish "holy hermit" as a female, relevant only by virtue of Dido of Carthage who was mentioned just a few dialogues earlier. See my comments in the "death of marlowe" thread.
>
> Many such anagrams exist in Shakespeare, not always about authorship.
>
> LORENZO. Who comes with her?
> STEPHANO. None but a holy Hermit and *her maid*:
>
> Here the "holy Hermit" indicates Portia.
> Hermit equals to her-mit, hinted by her-m___ in "her maid";
> mit is an obsolete form of might (OED).
> "Hermit" plays for her-might, Portia's might in the trial;
marco
Jun 25, 2016, 10:35:30 PM6/25/16
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Jim F.
Jun 26, 2016, 8:56:23 PM6/26/16
to
a figure of speech which consists in substituting for the name of a thing
the name of an attribute of it or of something closely related (OED, 1562).
To prove the identity of the "holy Hermit" in _The Birth of Merlin_ is harder.
Somehow most scholars don't believe _Merlin_ was done by William Shakespeare,
even with his name on the cover.
The difference between Martin Mar-prelate and W. Shake-speare is that the later
can just "die" like Marlowe to close the case. Random hyphen in Shake-speare is
a hint to split the name for a wordplay, not for pseudonym. Ben Jonson used
that often, especially the last word in his _Epigrammes_, A-jax.
_Merlin_ hides a subplot more dangerous than Marprelate controversy, starting
from its naming:
Jone Goe-too't, Mother of Merlin. (also spelt Joan Go-too't in the play)
Clown, brother to Jone.
The Devil, father of Merlin. (an inferior, lustful Incubus)
Sir Nichodemus Nothing, a Courtier. (also spelt Nicodemus)
Merlin the Prophet.
Anselme the Hermit, after Bishop of Winchester.
Jone Goe-too't
Jone and Clown her brother, J. C., alludes to Jesus Christ.
Their family name Go-too't riddles God.
Too't is a coalesced form of "to it";
Go-too't means go-to-the-Devil in the play for Jone and Clown,
and Devil provides the D for "Go" to spell God.
Jone is an obsolete form of join, a hint to join names.
The play's subtitle, _The Childe hath found his Father_
supports this name play. "Father" has the definition of
"applied to God, expressing His relation to Jesus" (OED 5a).
Jesus Christ is a one-way anagram of "Child found his Father."
This subtitle is made to allow the replacement of "the Child"
with Merlin or Jesus Christ, "his Father" with Devil or God.
. . .
The whole proving is quite long. At the end, "Anselme the Hermit,
after Bishop of Winchester" projects Christopher Marlowe.
Morten St. George
Jun 27, 2016, 2:11:28 AM6/27/16
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On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:56:23 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> For "holy Hermit" in _Merchant_ as Portia, perhaps you can try metonymy:
> a figure of speech which consists in substituting for the name of a thing
> the name of an attribute of it or of something closely related (OED, 1562).
>
> To prove the identity of the "holy Hermit" in _The Birth of Merlin_ is harder.
Since we now have a male holy hermit, it might only be serving to draw our attention to the respective dialogue where we also find:
>
> For "holy Hermit" in _Merchant_ as Portia, perhaps you can try metonymy:
> a figure of speech which consists in substituting for the name of a thing
> the name of an attribute of it or of something closely related (OED, 1562).
>
> To prove the identity of the "holy Hermit" in _The Birth of Merlin_ is harder.
"the Saxons stood amaz'd : for to their seeming, above the Hermit head appear'd such brightness, such clear and glorious beams, as if our men
march't all in fire;"
Compare that with Nostradamus' comment on Merlin's prophecies (translation by Garencières):
"after I had read them, I presented them to Vulcan, who while he was a devouring them, the flame mixing with the Air, made an unwonted light more bright then the ususal flame, and as if it had been a Lightning, shining all the house over, as if it had been all in a flame"
> Somehow most scholars don't believe _Merlin_ was done by William Shakespeare,
> even with his name on the cover.
Marlowe, still alive at age 58!!!
> The play's subtitle, _The Childe hath found his Father_
> supports this name play. "Father" has the definition of
> "applied to God, expressing His relation to Jesus" (OED 5a).
> Jesus Christ is a one-way anagram of "Child found his Father."
> The whole proving is quite long. At the end, "Anselme the Hermit,
> after Bishop of Winchester" projects Christopher Marlowe.
Jim F.
Jun 27, 2016, 7:31:19 AM6/27/16
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On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 2:11:28 PM UTC+8, Morten St. George wrote:
. . .
Morten,
Please explain why these lines are "Wrong."
You don't think Jone Goe-too't and Clown is a "name play" on Jesus Christ?
. . .
> > The play's subtitle, _The Childe hath found his Father_
> > supports this name play. "Father" has the definition of
> > "applied to God, expressing His relation to Jesus" (OED 5a).
> > Jesus Christ is a one-way anagram of "Child found his Father."
>
> Wrong. All legends as well as the play make it clear that Merlin was fathered by the Devil and from him Merlin derived his prophetic powers. With sight of prophecies engraved into fire from hell, there can be no other conclusion.
. . .
> > supports this name play. "Father" has the definition of
> > "applied to God, expressing His relation to Jesus" (OED 5a).
> > Jesus Christ is a one-way anagram of "Child found his Father."
>
> Wrong. All legends as well as the play make it clear that Merlin was fathered by the Devil and from him Merlin derived his prophetic powers. With sight of prophecies engraved into fire from hell, there can be no other conclusion.
Morten,
Please explain why these lines are "Wrong."
You don't think Jone Goe-too't and Clown is a "name play" on Jesus Christ?
Morten St. George
Jun 27, 2016, 9:07:16 AM6/27/16
to
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:31:19 AM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Morten,
>
> Please explain why these lines are "Wrong."
> You don't think Jone Goe-too't and Clown is a "name play" on Jesus Christ?
Jim,
>
> Morten,
>
> Please explain why these lines are "Wrong."
> You don't think Jone Goe-too't and Clown is a "name play" on Jesus Christ?
Your propensity for finding "name play" reminds me of Baconian propensity for finding ciphers everywhere they looked, and is probably no more helpful.
Clowns were frequently employed throughout Shakespearean literature as a popular theatrical device, and they can hardly be considered "name plays."
The type of cryptography that we witness in the plays is generally based on the power of association, usually with external sources, and only rarely do they resort to internal name play.
Name Play: The names "Jone" and "Joan" (variant spellings of Merlin's mom in the Merlin play) can be seen as alluding to the names "Jane" and "Joane". John Florio named his first child "Joane". Was Jane, therefore, his mom?
graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jun 27, 2016, 10:42:50 AM6/27/16
to
I have had a quick read of the Birth of Merlin. These are some of the facts that I can get from the play.
First the cast list is big. Somewhat larger than a Shakespeare play.
Merlin was clearly played by a dwarf with a long beard. Numerous references by the Clown point to this.
There's a stage direction about two dragons fighting. Any thoughts on how they would have done them? Two men dressed up?
Shakespeare defiantly came up with the name "CONSTANTIA".
Variations of that name cropped up in my childhood, I had a model railway as a kid, and I developed a fictional place for it to be set in. With a whole list of stations with fictional and some real names. One of them was "Constanter". Another was "Stantantor". Past life memories often crop up in childhood fantasy. They were often important in the past life, but repressed.
When Shakespeare put's the word "clown" in for a part, these parts were always played by the men who were the one's with the funniest ways. They often had deformed bodies that people will just laugh at. Not so much these days due to Political Correctness. But everything goes back then. Deformed bodies would be more commonly seen back then, since surgery wasn't available to correct some of the more common birth defects. Acting on a stage was a way for these people to make some money. Since people laughed at them anyway.
From what I have read Shakespeare (if it is one of his, which points to it) was actually taking the piss out of Merlin.
What you guys are doing is in a way analysing a Monty Python type of piece, thinking it is serious, without knowing that it was meant to be funny.
"It is an ex parrot"
"It has ceased to be"
"Jesus" is being brought in now!
J.C. - Jesus Christ or John Cleese!
First the cast list is big. Somewhat larger than a Shakespeare play.
Merlin was clearly played by a dwarf with a long beard. Numerous references by the Clown point to this.
There's a stage direction about two dragons fighting. Any thoughts on how they would have done them? Two men dressed up?
Shakespeare defiantly came up with the name "CONSTANTIA".
Variations of that name cropped up in my childhood, I had a model railway as a kid, and I developed a fictional place for it to be set in. With a whole list of stations with fictional and some real names. One of them was "Constanter". Another was "Stantantor". Past life memories often crop up in childhood fantasy. They were often important in the past life, but repressed.
When Shakespeare put's the word "clown" in for a part, these parts were always played by the men who were the one's with the funniest ways. They often had deformed bodies that people will just laugh at. Not so much these days due to Political Correctness. But everything goes back then. Deformed bodies would be more commonly seen back then, since surgery wasn't available to correct some of the more common birth defects. Acting on a stage was a way for these people to make some money. Since people laughed at them anyway.
From what I have read Shakespeare (if it is one of his, which points to it) was actually taking the piss out of Merlin.
What you guys are doing is in a way analysing a Monty Python type of piece, thinking it is serious, without knowing that it was meant to be funny.
"It is an ex parrot"
"It has ceased to be"
"Jesus" is being brought in now!
J.C. - Jesus Christ or John Cleese!
Jim F.
Jun 27, 2016, 7:51:48 PM6/27/16
to
Jone and Clown are common.
Jone and Clown and "Go-too't" are not.
You skip the key name "Go-too't"?
"Sir Nicodemus" is common.
"Sir Nicodemus Nothing" is not.
Why would Shakespeare create this name?
Morten St. George
Jun 27, 2016, 10:55:21 PM6/27/16
to
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:51:48 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Jone and Clown are common.
> Jone and Clown and "Go-too't" are not.
> You skip the key name "Go-too't"?
>
> "Sir Nicodemus" is common.
> "Sir Nicodemus Nothing" is not.
> Why would Shakespeare create this name?
I imagine the surname "Go-too't" could have some special meaning or significance, but I do not know what it is, nor have I investigated the matter.
>
> Jone and Clown are common.
> Jone and Clown and "Go-too't" are not.
> You skip the key name "Go-too't"?
>
> "Sir Nicodemus" is common.
> "Sir Nicodemus Nothing" is not.
> Why would Shakespeare create this name?
Do you know if "too't" sounds like "tut", a word frequently found in Shakespeare and occasionally in Marlowe as well. If so, Go-too't could simply mean "Go safely", fair enough for someone about to have unwanted contact with the Devil.
Sir Nicodemus Nothing sounds like a name that could be found in any fairy tale or another, quite appropriate for the story of Merlin, and not needing further explanation.
Another character in the play was the Earl of Chester, but it seems the Earldom of Chester wasn't created during the epoch Aurelius and Merlin, but during the epoch of William the Conqueror, more than half a millenium later. Your time might be better spent contemplating on how and why Chester got into the play.
marco
Jun 27, 2016, 11:26:46 PM6/27/16
to
Jim F.
Jun 29, 2016, 9:42:58 PM6/29/16
to
To solve Go-too't, one needs to check the context related to it.
Following samples show that Go-too't means go-to-it with the _it_
as one's target; each _it_ may be different. For Jone & Clown in
the play, the _it_ stands for the Devil.
Jone & Clown ask each lord they meet if he would be the father
of Jone's child:
CLOWN.
here's a yong Go-too't a coming, sir,
she is my sister, we all love to Go-too't,
as well as your worship [Prince],
she's a Maid yet, but you may make her a wife,
. . .
OSWOLD.
you [Jone Go-too't] have been fouly o'reshot else.
CLOWN.
A woman's fault, we are all subject to *go to't*, sir.
Nicodemus is famous for his talk with Jesus Christ.
_Sir Nicodemus_ talks only to Jone & Clown in the play,
which is used to support Jone & Clown as Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is a one-way anagram of _Sir Nicodemus Nothing_,
an atheist's mocking that Jesus' words are Nothing; besides
that, _Nothing_ is used mainly to build authorship.
Edol Earl of Chester, Anselme Bishop of Winchester, Donobert,
etc., can be solved by the same method. The naming in _Merlin_
is well constructed. Certain logic exists in those names.
(Challenge not the assumption, but the way to prove that.)
Morten St. George
Jun 30, 2016, 4:04:11 PM6/30/16
to
I can now concede that Go-too't means to go-to-it and I also see that the "it" can have connotations distinct from the Devil.
But I am not yet in agreement with all your Jesus Christ talk. For example, Wikipedia notes that the Gospel of Nicodemus "is mostly a reworking of the earlier Acts of Pilate, which recounts the harrowing of Hell." Indeed, I see the Devil and Prophecy as the predominate theme:
Farewel, great servant to th'infernal King,
In honor of this childe, the Fates shall bring
All their assisting powers of Knowledge, Arts,
Learning, Wisdom, all the hidden parts
Of all-admiring Prophecy, to fore-see
The event of times to come
Nostradamus: "Satan shall be left bound for the space of a thousand years, and then shall be loosed again." By legend, Merlin went mad after A.D. 573, so the unleashing (publication) of his prophecies would occur in the late 16th century.
Shakespeare, however, was not the first to link Merlin to the Devil. That was already done by scholars some three hundred years earlier. What was it about Merlin's prophecies that caused those scholars, and then Shakespeare (into whose hand the orignal prophecies eventually fell), to believe that Merlin was the son of the Devil?
It seems doubtful that words alone could do that. But recall the brilliant light of fire that we discussed earlier in this thread. What if Merlin wrote his prophecies on a substance that emitted the infernal light of hell?
We can even speculate on a supernatural explanation for the Shakespeare authorship conspiracy: What would have happened if it became known that Elizabeth had authorized the publication of prophecies written by the son of the Devil? Would continental Europe have raised up a great army to dethrone her? At home, she was supposed to be the defender of the faith. Would her own people have rebelled against her?
Remedy: Send Merlin's prophecies to France and send the key to finding them to Stratford-upon-Avon.
marco
Jun 30, 2016, 11:18:38 PM6/30/16
to
Jim F.
Jul 3, 2016, 5:39:06 AM7/3/16
to
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 9:07:16 PM UTC+8, Morten St. George wrote:
...
...
> Your propensity for finding "name play" reminds me of Baconian propensity for finding ciphers everywhere they looked, and is probably no more helpful.
...
To solve Merlin's prophecy in _The Birth of Merlin_, we need to solve
the name Edol Earl of Chester first.
Dole has the definition of "a part or division of a whole" (OED n1, 2).
Edol is a perfect anagram of Dole.
Jone as join hints at joining names. Jone & Clown can be joined as J. C.
Edol as dole hints at parting names. Chester is a part of Winchester.
The link of Chester and Winchester is hinted by "the Hermit, after Bishop
of Winchester" who is sent by Chester:
TOCLIO.
there's here arriv'd at Court, sent by the Earl of _Chester_ to the King,
a man of rare esteem for holyness, a reverent *Hermit*,
Chester has the definition of "one who puts a corpse into a coffin" (OED).
This is shown in Donobert's description of how Earl of Chester wins his
enemies in the field.
TOCLIO.
Embassadors are on the way to Court.
DONOBERT.
So suddenly, _Chester_ it seems has ply'd them hard at war,
they sue so fast for peace,
Purpose of this name play is to part Winchester to win-chester, paving the
way to find the identity of the Hermit. After that, Merlin's prophecy for
Jone Go-too't can be solved. Jone Go-too't isn't a vulgar name. It tells
the world one should "go to it" to the end.
You still think there is no name play in _The Birth of Merlin_?
Morten St. George
Jul 3, 2016, 12:33:43 PM7/3/16
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On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 5:39:06 AM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> To solve Merlin's prophecy in _The Birth of Merlin_, we need to solve
> the name Edol Earl of Chester first.
Not very long ago someone warned me that Wikipedia was not a reliable source, and I now lament not paying heed to that advice. It seems that, for Wikipedia, England did not exist prior to the Conquest.
>
> To solve Merlin's prophecy in _The Birth of Merlin_, we need to solve
> the name Edol Earl of Chester first.
Your challenge to Edol forced me to do a search and I found the following:
"Edol, or Edolf, Earl of Caerlegian, or Chester, Edol. temp. K. Vortiger. Fabian, in his Chron. Chap. 89."
I was thinking that the insertion of Chester into the play could have been the work of one of my Shakespearean candidates, Wm. Stanley, who had strong ties to Chester. That still might be true: though Fabyan's Chronicle (1516) briefly refers to Edolf the Erle of Chestre, it in no way supports the role given to him in The Birth of Merlin.
marco
Jul 4, 2016, 9:16:12 AM7/4/16
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Jim F.
Jul 5, 2016, 10:43:37 PM7/5/16
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_The Birth of Merlin_. Many names in the play are from Holinshed,
including Chester:
Amongst other of the Britains, there was one Edol earle of Glocester,
or (as other say) Chester, ...
Besides Chester, Holinshed's England has Ostorius, Oswald or Oswold,
Cador earl of Cornwall, Edwin or Edwine, Aurelius, Uter Pendragon,
Vortiger or Vortigern or Vortigerne.
The really suspicious one is Anselme Bishop of Winchester.
It can't be found anywhere, not even in the body of the play,
but only in Dramatis Personae of _Merlin_. It means only readers
can see it.
Morten St. George
Jul 6, 2016, 1:34:19 AM7/6/16
to
On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 10:43:37 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> "Wm. Stanley, who had strong ties to Chester" has little chance in
> _The Birth of Merlin_. Many names in the play are from Holinshed,
> including Chester:
One of the major arguments of the Oxfordians is that, in the history plays of William Shakespeare, the historical role of the Earl of Oxford is exaggerated. The same applies here to the Earl of Chester in Merlin's day.
>
> "Wm. Stanley, who had strong ties to Chester" has little chance in
> _The Birth of Merlin_. Many names in the play are from Holinshed,
> including Chester:
> The really suspicious one is Anselme Bishop of Winchester.
> It can't be found anywhere, not even in the body of the play,
> but only in Dramatis Personae of _Merlin_. It means only readers
> can see it.
"You shall understand that there is not under the heavens so chaste a nation as this of Bensalem, nor so free from all pollution or foulness. It is the virgin of the world; I remember, I have read in one of your European books, of a holy hermit among you, that desired to see the spirit of fornication, and there appeared to him a little foul ugly Ethiope; but if he had desired to see the spirit of chastity of Bensalem, it would have appeared to him in the likeness of a fair beautiful cherub."
The critical word, appearing twice in that passage, is "Bensalem". The capital "B" drops out and then the first "e" and "a" exchange places and the last "e" and "m" also exchange places:
ANSELME
It might also be relevant that Saint Anselme lived during the epoch of Geoffrey of Monmouth (creator of the Merlin myth) and that he was _Bishop_ of Canterbury, Marlowe's home town.
Jim F.
Jul 7, 2016, 11:23:50 PM7/7/16
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but this won't help the reading of _The Birth of Merlin_.
Name of the Hermit in the play is printed as Anselme Bishop of Winchester,
not Canterbury. It's not an accident.
Bishop equals to by-shop;
_shop_ has the definition of "to shut up (a person), to imprison.
Of an informer, evidence, etc.: To cause to be imprisoned" (OED, 1583).
Winchester equals to win-chester;
_chester_ has the definition of "one who puts a corpse into a coffin" (OED).
_Bishop Winchester_ says that someone is shopped by an informer, but he
plots something to win the chester so he won't be put into a coffin.
Why Anselme?
_Bishop Winchester_ contains letters needed to spell Christopher Marlowe
except a, l, m. Anselme provides the three missing letters; i.e.,
Christopher Marlowe is a one-way anagram of _Anselme Bishop Winchester_.
Anselme is a perfect anagram of slane-me; slane is a variant of slain (OED).
The name says that Marlowe is being slain, but he wins the chester to have
a new life, or, is "born again" with a faked death.
Nicodemus saith unto him,
How can a man be born when he is old? (JOHN 3:4)
Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
Christ's offer to _Nicodemus_ means _Nothing_ to
Marlowe.
Morten St. George
Jul 8, 2016, 2:00:48 AM7/8/16
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On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 11:23:50 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> I think "Bensalem" is the mixture of "the land of Benjamin" and "Jerusalem,"
> but this won't help the reading of _The Birth of Merlin_.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm equally convinced that Bensalem is based on the following prophecy Merlini:
>
> I think "Bensalem" is the mixture of "the land of Benjamin" and "Jerusalem,"
> but this won't help the reading of _The Birth of Merlin_.
Par Nebro ouurir de Brisanne passage
This line suggests the discovery of a new land and is a perfect fit for the New Atlantis story.
B RI S A N N E
B EN S A L E M
Note that the first, fourth, and fifth letters are the same in these nine-letter words.
In secondary cryptography, Bensalem is interpreted as follows:
B ishop ANSELME
This would clearly allude to Canterbury, Marlowe's home town.
> Name of the Hermit in the play is printed as Anselme Bishop of Winchester,
> not Canterbury.
> It's not an accident.
Elsewhere hereabouts I explained that the holy hermit of the New Atlantis points to a hermit and fornication story of the Decameron, set near ancient Carthage, and simultaneously to the "holy hermit" of the Merchant of Venice in a scene where we find mention of Dido of Carthage, Marlowe's first play.
Anselme of Canterbury now gives us a second pointer to Marlowe, so I see little doubt that Marlowe was on board the Santa Isabel. Though there are indications (the above Merlin prophecy and cave drawings) that Marlowe did in fact reach Australia where he wanted to establish a utopia, no signs of a permanent settlement were ever found so we must assume that Marlowe and the others were killed and eaten by the aborigines.
> Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
Jim F.
Jul 8, 2016, 5:37:32 AM7/8/16
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You still think your statement,
"Sir Nicodemus Nothing sounds like a name that could be found in
any fairy tale or another, quite appropriate for the story of Merlin,
and not needing further explanation."
is correct?
any fairy tale or another, quite appropriate for the story of Merlin,
and not needing further explanation."
graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jul 8, 2016, 11:32:25 AM7/8/16
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On Friday, 8 July 2016 04:23:50 UTC+1, Jim F. wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 1:34:19 PM UTC+8, Morten St. George wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 10:43:37 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
> > >
> > > "Wm. Stanley, who had strong ties to Chester" has little chance in
> > > _The Birth of Merlin_. Many names in the play are from Holinshed,
> > > including Chester:
> >
> On Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 1:34:19 PM UTC+8, Morten St. George wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 10:43:37 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
> > >
> > > "Wm. Stanley, who had strong ties to Chester" has little chance in
> > > _The Birth of Merlin_. Many names in the play are from Holinshed,
> > > including Chester:
> >
> > The critical word, appearing twice in that passage, is "Bensalem". The capital "B" drops out and then the first "e" and "a" exchange places and the last "e" and "m" also exchange places:
> >
> > ANSELME
>
>
> >
> > ANSELME
>
>
> I think "Bensalem" is the mixture of "the land of Benjamin" and "Jerusalem,"
> but this won't help the reading of _The Birth of Merlin_.
>
> Name of the Hermit in the play is printed as Anselme Bishop of Winchester,
> not Canterbury. It's not an accident.
>
> but this won't help the reading of _The Birth of Merlin_.
>
> Name of the Hermit in the play is printed as Anselme Bishop of Winchester,
> not Canterbury. It's not an accident.
>
> Why Anselme?
>
> _Bishop Winchester_ contains letters needed to spell Christopher Marlowe
> except a, l, m. Anselme provides the three missing letters; i.e.,
> Christopher Marlowe is a one-way anagram of _Anselme Bishop Winchester_.
>
> Anselme is a perfect anagram of slane-me; slane is a variant of slain (OED).
> The name says that Marlowe is being slain, but he wins the chester to have
> a new life, or, is "born again" with a faked death.
>
> Nicodemus saith unto him,
> How can a man be born when he is old? (JOHN 3:4)
>
> Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
> Christ's offer to _Nicodemus_ means _Nothing_ to
> Marlowe.
So what you have shown is that Christopher Marlowe was very much alive and therefore the play dates before 1593. For he WAS playing the parts you have decoded.
>
> _Bishop Winchester_ contains letters needed to spell Christopher Marlowe
> except a, l, m. Anselme provides the three missing letters; i.e.,
> Christopher Marlowe is a one-way anagram of _Anselme Bishop Winchester_.
>
> Anselme is a perfect anagram of slane-me; slane is a variant of slain (OED).
> The name says that Marlowe is being slain, but he wins the chester to have
> a new life, or, is "born again" with a faked death.
>
> Nicodemus saith unto him,
> How can a man be born when he is old? (JOHN 3:4)
>
> Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
> Christ's offer to _Nicodemus_ means _Nothing_ to
> Marlowe.
As I have shown with Romeo and Juliet, Marlowe plays the part of Romeo's friend who dies, saying a plague on both your houses (of God). Clues to his atheist background. Shakespeare being thinly disguised as Romeo (from Catholic parents) and Juliet as Elizabeth (protestant).
So when you find references such as that you know it's a clue to who is playing the parts.
Now what you need do is check the edition of Holinshed the Merlin story is in. If there are references to the play itself in the 1588 edition, then the play was written before that date. If the same references occur in the 1577 Holinshed. Then it was written after 1582, but no later than 1592.
Morten St. George
Jul 8, 2016, 5:07:37 PM7/8/16
to
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 11:23:50 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Anselme is a perfect anagram of slane-me; slane is a variant of slain (OED).
> The name says that Marlowe is being slain, but he wins the chester to have
> a new life, or, is "born again" with a faked death.
>
> Nicodemus saith unto him,
> How can a man be born when he is old? (JOHN 3:4)
>
> Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
> Christ's offer to _Nicodemus_ means _Nothing_ to
> Marlowe.
Though it is usually fine to turn to the Bible and other sources in effort to understand Shakespearean fairly tales, priority must always be given to the role and dialogue seen in the play.
>
> Anselme is a perfect anagram of slane-me; slane is a variant of slain (OED).
> The name says that Marlowe is being slain, but he wins the chester to have
> a new life, or, is "born again" with a faked death.
>
> Nicodemus saith unto him,
> How can a man be born when he is old? (JOHN 3:4)
>
> Christopher Marlowe is an atheist.
> Christ's offer to _Nicodemus_ means _Nothing_ to
> Marlowe.
Nicodemus (alleged author of a hellish gospel) has contact with the pregnant Joan and her brother. Nicodemus exits and the Devil enters. Nicodemus, therefore, would be the precursor or forerunner, the satanic equivalent of a concept that the Christians call John the Baptist.
The term "Nothing" is used in connection with the fathering of the child of the pregnant Joan. "Nothing", therefore, would be the satanic equivalent of a concept that the Christians call the immaculate conception.
Stray readers of this post should not conclude that Marlowe was involved in devil worship. As stated likewise in the legends, they believed that Merlin rebelled against his father and instead used his inherited powers for the purpose of good.
But nowhere in the Nicodemus dialogues in the play do we find a reference to death. Hence, the death and rebirth of Marlowe cannot be inferred from there. Only the "holy hermit", not Nicodemus, is our link to Marlowe.
In the "holy hermit" dialogue, the Saxons see Aurelius' soldiers engulfed in fire. Thinking that hell itself was approaching them, the Saxons turned and ran and were defeated in battle. And this same light of fire, through a parallel in Nostradamus prose, establishes Marlowe (nickname Marlin) as a contributor to the publish-Merlin project.
Marlowe was a valued member of their secret society (else Shakespeare would not be writing about him) and there is no realistic chance that he was an atheist (that was just propaganda) and there is no realistic chance that any harm would come to him even if he were an atheist.
Did you ever read the Privy Council's letter to Cambridge university regarding Marlowe's Master's degree? Is it not clear that Marlowe already had the Privy Council wrapped around his finger? He had nothing to fear from them.
graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jul 8, 2016, 8:14:23 PM7/8/16
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Yes I did read the letter. He was given the degree because he was chief flattery to the Queen. He was never there for a start and the old boy network made certain that he was given a degree. Not for spying.
He was absent from Cambridge because he was on the stage with Shakespeare. And when he was wasn't was in the best bed of William Shakespeare's fucking Anne!
That's why Anne got only the best bed, a bit worn, but fitting!
Jim F.
Jul 8, 2016, 10:13:23 PM7/8/16
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The focus is Hermit and the play. Eventually, name play should help the
reading, especially difficult lines. Following dialogue is difficult.
Solve it and you'll see the hidden structure of _The Birth of Merlin_,
a great play missed by the world, and much more than just Marlowe.
DONOBERT.
Sincerely _Gloster_, I have told you all: My Daughters are
both vow'd to Single Life, and this day gone unto the Nunnery,
though I begot them to another end, and fairly promis'd them in
Marriage, one to Earl _Cador_, t'other to your son, my worthy
friend, the Earl of _Gloster_. Those lost, I am lost: they are lost,
all's lost. Answer me this then, Ist a sin to marry?
HERMIT.
Oh no, my Lord.
DONOBERT.
Go to then, Ile go no further with you, I perswade you
to no ill, perswade you then that I perswade you well.
Morten St. George
Jul 9, 2016, 1:02:12 PM7/9/16
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The problem with interpretation and name play is that there is often, but not always, more than a single possibility, so there can be no certainty that you have arrived at the correct conclusion.
I was wondering if you ever noticed the ingenious way in which The Birth of Merlin, the last of the "devil" plays, links back to Faustus, the first of the "devil" plays?
MERLIN:
The DRAGON is your Emblem, bear it bravely
FAUSTUS:
surgat Mephistophilis DRAGON, quod tumeraris
Metaphorically, support for the Shakespeare conspiracy can be explained in Faustic terms: the English queen sold her soul to the devil in exchange for know-how to defeat the Spanish Armada, and the Scottish king sold his soul to the devil in exchange for the throne of England.
Lurking in the background is the succession question and why Elizabeth never married, and the matter of religious warfare between Protestants and Catholics. Shakespeare was purposely neutral in his plays, but strongly anti-Catholic elsewhere. Recall Marlowe's Massacre at Paris ("I heere do sweare, To ruinate this wicked Church of Rome"); recall that Giordano Bruno was their friend.
Most of all, however, lurking in the background of all their writings (plays, poems and prose), we find Merlin:
SHAKESPEARE:
Of the dreamer Merlin and his prophecies,
And of a dragon and a finless fish,
A clip-wing'd griffin and a moulten raven,
MERLINI:
[a dragon]
Cassich sainct George à demy perfondrez
[a finless fish]
Es lieux & temps chair au poisson donra lieu
[a clip-wing griffin]
Comme vn gryphon viendra le Roy d’Europe
[a moulten raven]
L’oiseau royal sur la cité solaire
I have this much to say: When and if we ever resolve the mystery of Shakespearean authorship to widespread satisfaction, we will find ourselves with an even greater mystery on our hands: Merlin.
graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jul 9, 2016, 3:51:19 PM7/9/16
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On Saturday, 9 July 2016 18:02:12 UTC+1, Morten St. George wrote:
>
> Metaphorically, support for the Shakespeare conspiracy can be explained in Faustic terms: the English queen sold her soul to the devil in exchange for know-how to defeat the Spanish Armada, and the Scottish king sold his soul to the devil in exchange for the throne of England.
>
> Lurking in the background is the succession question and why Elizabeth never married, and the matter of religious warfare between Protestants and Catholics. Shakespeare was purposely neutral in his plays, but strongly anti-Catholic elsewhere. Recall Marlowe's Massacre at Paris ("I heere do sweare, To ruinate this wicked Church of Rome"); recall that Giordano Bruno was their friend.
>
I wondered when we would get around to conspiracy theories!
>
> Metaphorically, support for the Shakespeare conspiracy can be explained in Faustic terms: the English queen sold her soul to the devil in exchange for know-how to defeat the Spanish Armada, and the Scottish king sold his soul to the devil in exchange for the throne of England.
>
> Lurking in the background is the succession question and why Elizabeth never married, and the matter of religious warfare between Protestants and Catholics. Shakespeare was purposely neutral in his plays, but strongly anti-Catholic elsewhere. Recall Marlowe's Massacre at Paris ("I heere do sweare, To ruinate this wicked Church of Rome"); recall that Giordano Bruno was their friend.
>
Since neither Queen or King needed to do either or could do it anyway it's a pointless statement. Selling souls to the devil indeed!!!
Elizabeth would never have sold her soul to anyone. She saw her succession as being God's work, so she would have never consulted the Devil on anything.
The succession question is what plagued everyone accept Elizabeth. Quite frankly she was happy to have Mary Stuart take over, as long as she didn't do it while she was alive. But the problem with Mary was the she was a psychopath and wasn't going to wait while the Queen died of natural causes.
The Queen never married because she didn't trust anyone. To her every man was a devil. Lies and deceit are all what they are capable of. In the end even William Shakespeare proved false to her.
Even William Shakespeare could not figure out Queen Elizabeth, though he tried.
When Shakespeare urges her to get married in the Sonnets, she turns it around on him. Telling him to get married. He wasn't married, in the early sonnets, but later he does get married. But when she finds out, she is angry as hell with him.
When the main body of plays is printed the religious side is muted down by law. With many references to religion removed. The early versions of all the plays were all anti-Catholic, because William supported the Queen fully. These early versions are ignored by Stratfordians saying that Shakespeare used them as a source!!! In fact they were written by Shakespeare and not a source at all.
OK, I have solved the mystery for you. William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote all the plays, which are about the life and times of Queen Elizabeth! He did them together with his friends and various members of the Queen's men, during the period 1581 to 1588.
Let's not bother to solve the Merlin question, but solve the problems of why Morten Saint George and Jim F seem to lack common sense. I would put it down to them being as thick as two planks of wood, but others might disagree and say it's three planks of wood or more.
Jim F.
Jul 9, 2016, 10:39:07 PM7/9/16
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On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 1:02:12 AM UTC+8, Morten St. George wrote:
...
Morten,
Thousand references are useless unless they can solve some lines in
Shakespeare, especially difficult ones to every word. Merlin's prophecy
to his mother is difficult to every word.
MERLIN.
leave this soyl, and Ile conduct you to a place retir'd, which I by art
have rais'd, call'd _Merlins Bower_, there shall you dwell with solitary
sighs, with grones and passions your companions, to weep away
this flesh you have offended with, and leave all bare unto your
aierial soul, and when you die, I will erect a Monument upon the
verdant Plains of _Salisbury_, no King shall have so high a sepulchre,
with pendulous stones that I will hang by art, where neither Lime
nor Morter shalbe us'd, a dark _Enigma_ to the memory, for none
shall have the power to number them, a place that I will hollow
for your rest,
Where no Night-hag shall walk, nor Ware-wolf tread,
Where _Merlins_ Mother shall be sepulcher'd.
...
Morten,
Thousand references are useless unless they can solve some lines in
Shakespeare, especially difficult ones to every word. Merlin's prophecy
to his mother is difficult to every word.
MERLIN.
leave this soyl, and Ile conduct you to a place retir'd, which I by art
have rais'd, call'd _Merlins Bower_, there shall you dwell with solitary
sighs, with grones and passions your companions, to weep away
this flesh you have offended with, and leave all bare unto your
aierial soul, and when you die, I will erect a Monument upon the
verdant Plains of _Salisbury_, no King shall have so high a sepulchre,
with pendulous stones that I will hang by art, where neither Lime
nor Morter shalbe us'd, a dark _Enigma_ to the memory, for none
shall have the power to number them, a place that I will hollow
for your rest,
Where no Night-hag shall walk, nor Ware-wolf tread,
Where _Merlins_ Mother shall be sepulcher'd.
Morten St. George
Jul 11, 2016, 9:54:00 PM7/11/16
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I don't much understand your comment here: It is universal knowledge that, by legend, Stonehenge was built by Merlin. In the age of Geoffrey of Monmouth, in the age of Shakespeare, and in the age of Erich von Däniken, people could not comprehend that ancient peoples were able to move around huge blocks of stone, so they looked for supernatural powers as an explanation. For Geoffrey and Shakespeare, that explanation was Merlin.
Initial clues: BOWER, MONUMENT, and MORTER
MERLINI:
Le tremblement de terre à Mortara,
Mortara divides into "Mort" (clue: "Morter") meaning "death", and "ara". Latin definitions of "ara" include "altar", "refuge, shelter" ("Bower") and "monument of stone" ("Monument"). "Mort" and "ara" join together give us a Monument to the Dead. Aurelius? Fallen soldiers in a battle against the Saxons fought at Stonehenge? For Shakespeare, Merlin's mom.
MERLINI (next line):
Cassich. sainct George a demy perfondrez,
"Cassich" (Latin "casses") refers to a snare or spider's web, such as, for example, concentric circles like the inner and outer circles at Stonehenge. Saint George places us in England, and the "a demy perfondrez", meaning "half demolished", does indeed refer to the current (and Elizabethan) state of Stonehenge.
Secondary clues: SO HIGH, POWER, WARE-WOLF
Merlin built a monument to his mom at Salisbury, but that does not necessarily mean that he buried her there. "no King shall have so high a sepulchre". Not high off the ground, but high in the sky. "for none shall have the power to number them". The stones cannot be counted because they are out of sight and out of reach.
When does a ware-wolf change form from human to wolf? Answer: When there's a full Moon. And that's the answer to our mystery: Merlin buried his mom on the Moon!!!
MERLINI:
Dedans le coin de Luna viendra rendre
Où sera prins, & mis en terre estrange.
I fail to see why you found that passage difficult. It seems fairly straightforward to me.
Jim F.
Jul 12, 2016, 9:34:05 PM7/12/16
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This prophecy gives two places, one "call'd _Merlins Bower_" to retire
Merlin's mother, the other to sepulcher her. Where is Merlin's Bower?
Morten St. George
Jul 13, 2016, 7:30:54 AM7/13/16
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On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 9:34:05 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Straightforward?
Well, I might have been teasing you a little there.
> This prophecy gives two places, one "call'd _Merlins Bower_" to retire
> Merlin's mother, the other to sepulcher her. Where is Merlin's Bower?
I take it you are declaring Merlin's Bower to be a place distinct from the "verdant plains of Salisbury" where Merlin later built Stonehenge. Maybe.
A "bower" is usually described as a shady place under trees. One place that quickly comes to mind is Avalon. Wikipedia: "Geoffrey of Monmouth referred to it in Latin as Insula Avallonis in the Historia. In the later Vita Merlini he called it Insula Pomorum the "isle of fruit trees" (from Latin pōmus "fruit tree")." Merlini in the Luna passage continues "Les fruicts immeurs", the unripe fruits.
Other possibilities include the ancient forest of Brocéliande in Brittany, Merlin’s Hill near Carmarthen, and Merlin’s Mound in Wiltshire. But that is just a guessing game as none of it is specifically called Merlin's Bower.
If the legends do not call it Merlin's Bower, then maybe just Shakespeare and his companions called it Merlin's Bower, that is, a recluse where they studied Merlin's prophecies. In the verdant plains of Salisbury, only Wilton House, family estate of the Herberts (see my post on W. H. in the Guildford Dudley thread), comes to mind. More than thirty years later, it was from Wilton House that King James ordered Inigo Jones (possibly the "Architectus" of the Fama Fraternitatis) to investigate the origins of Stonehenge.
As for burial on the Moon, reinforcement can be found elsewhere:
MERLINI:
Le penultisme du surnom du Prophete.
Prendra Diane pour son iour & repos:
Diana was the Moon goddess, thereby symbolizing the Moon as the place of "repos", rest. In the dialogue to his mom, Merlin the Prophet uses the word "rest": "A place that I will hollow for your rest." Today, burial on the Moon can be imagined, but probably a lot less so in Shakespeare's day. Surely that is why he refers to it as an Enigma.
>
> Straightforward?
Well, I might have been teasing you a little there.
> This prophecy gives two places, one "call'd _Merlins Bower_" to retire
> Merlin's mother, the other to sepulcher her. Where is Merlin's Bower?
A "bower" is usually described as a shady place under trees. One place that quickly comes to mind is Avalon. Wikipedia: "Geoffrey of Monmouth referred to it in Latin as Insula Avallonis in the Historia. In the later Vita Merlini he called it Insula Pomorum the "isle of fruit trees" (from Latin pōmus "fruit tree")." Merlini in the Luna passage continues "Les fruicts immeurs", the unripe fruits.
Other possibilities include the ancient forest of Brocéliande in Brittany, Merlin’s Hill near Carmarthen, and Merlin’s Mound in Wiltshire. But that is just a guessing game as none of it is specifically called Merlin's Bower.
If the legends do not call it Merlin's Bower, then maybe just Shakespeare and his companions called it Merlin's Bower, that is, a recluse where they studied Merlin's prophecies. In the verdant plains of Salisbury, only Wilton House, family estate of the Herberts (see my post on W. H. in the Guildford Dudley thread), comes to mind. More than thirty years later, it was from Wilton House that King James ordered Inigo Jones (possibly the "Architectus" of the Fama Fraternitatis) to investigate the origins of Stonehenge.
As for burial on the Moon, reinforcement can be found elsewhere:
MERLINI:
Le penultisme du surnom du Prophete.
Prendra Diane pour son iour & repos:
Diana was the Moon goddess, thereby symbolizing the Moon as the place of "repos", rest. In the dialogue to his mom, Merlin the Prophet uses the word "rest": "A place that I will hollow for your rest." Today, burial on the Moon can be imagined, but probably a lot less so in Shakespeare's day. Surely that is why he refers to it as an Enigma.
Jim F.
Jul 13, 2016, 9:55:25 PM7/13/16
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A quick answer for Merlin's Bower will be Wilton House based on anagram:
"Merlins Bower, there shall you dwell" can spell
_Mary Sidney Herbert, Wilton House_.
Bower can mean one who bends anything (OED n3.2). This is used to expound
"companions" later. The "call'd Merlins Bower" spells Mary Sidney, who
bends her Wilton poets. The full analysis is quite long.
Dark Enigma
_Anagram_ is a one-way anagram of "dark Enigma"; _enigma_ needs letter r
to spell _anagram_, so the author added _dark_ to complete it.
Most enigmas in Shakespeare are based on anagram.
The Childe hath found his Father
"Child" can mean a poet's creation, and "Father" a creator or an author.
Subtitle of _The Birth of Merlin_ seals a hidden subject, and provides a
reason to project the Hermit as Christopher Marlowe.
The Hermit disappears after the birth of Merlin in Act III. He comes back
in ACT V with only one line, which tells readers that his disappearance
isn't a mistake. Merlin and the Hermit never talk. The Hermit is transferred
to part of Merlin: "I can be but half a man at best."
Merlin stands for Wilton circle supported by Mary Sidney Herbert.
Marlowe is a member of that circle. Shakespeare's name appeared to the
public right after Marlowe's death in 1593. It's like Merlin's birth
after the Hermit's disappearance.
William Shakespeare
Merlin's _page_ is a "little antick Spirit" or "Sparrowhawk" in ACT IV.
Sparrowhawk can spell Shakespeare except letter e; actually, every single
hawk is spelt hawke in the First Folio. Besides that, William Shakespeare
is a one-way anagram of _Merlin Sparrowhawk_.
Sparrow-hawk can mean a sparrow-like person with hawk-like outlook.
Here a word is selected to frame the target's anagram, and to fit its
context to make a dark (invisible) enigma.
Donobert
To support the above we need Constancia, Modestia, and their father Donobert.
C.onstancia and M.odestia are "perswaded" by the Hermit (i.e.,
C.hristopher M.arlowe), to live a single life.
Their fatHER donoBERT reflects the _Herbert_.
Agree up to now?
graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jul 14, 2016, 6:47:28 AM7/14/16
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Oh dear... You already have...
Morten St. George
Jul 14, 2016, 11:24:38 PM7/14/16
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On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 9:55:25 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> Merlin's Bower
>
> A quick answer for Merlin's Bower will be Wilton House based on anagram:
> "Merlins Bower, there shall you dwell" can spell
> _Mary Sidney Herbert, Wilton House_.
> Bower can mean one who bends anything (OED n3.2). This is used to expound
> "companions" later. The "call'd Merlins Bower" spells Mary Sidney, who
> bends her Wilton poets. The full analysis is quite long.
It has to be a mistake to search for and utilize rare and obscure meanings of a word when you have no evidence that this was the author's intention. I see no reason to reject the traditional meaning of bower, which is a pleasant, shady place. Wikipedia tells us that Wilton House "is renowned for its gardens."
>
> Merlin's Bower
>
> A quick answer for Merlin's Bower will be Wilton House based on anagram:
> "Merlins Bower, there shall you dwell" can spell
> _Mary Sidney Herbert, Wilton House_.
> Bower can mean one who bends anything (OED n3.2). This is used to expound
> "companions" later. The "call'd Merlins Bower" spells Mary Sidney, who
> bends her Wilton poets. The full analysis is quite long.
> Dark Enigma
>
> _Anagram_ is a one-way anagram of "dark Enigma"; _enigma_ needs letter r
> to spell _anagram_, so the author added _dark_ to complete it.
> Most enigmas in Shakespeare are based on anagram.
> The Childe hath found his Father
>
> The Hermit is transferred
> to part of Merlin: "I can be but half a man at best."
Why not half man, half incubus, rather than half Hermit?
> to part of Merlin: "I can be but half a man at best."
> Merlin stands for Wilton circle supported by Mary Sidney Herbert.
> Marlowe is a member of that circle.
> William Shakespeare
>
> Merlin's _page_ is a "little antick Spirit"
"an holy hermit amongst you that desired to see the Spirit of Fornication;
and there appeared to him a little foul ugly Aethiop."
The "Spirit" and the "Aethiop" shapeshift, giving us another "little antick Spirit." So, it turns out that Marlowe was a "page". To date, in all the literature, I have only been able to find one page who had a Master's Degree. I found him in LLL and his name was Moth:
_M_arl_O_we, chris_T_op_H_er
Do you agree that "Master Moth" was a page? It may seem hard to believe that the Privy Council would come to the rescue of a page, but I guess that depends on for whom he was a page. In 1587, the English were busy preparing to fight the Spanish Armada which they knew was coming to exterminate all the English Protestants and their Queen. What if Marlowe was assigned to be the page of Spanish fleet commander?
> Donobert
>
> To support the above we need Constancia, Modestia, and their father Donobert.
> C.onstancia and M.odestia are "perswaded" by the Hermit (i.e.,
> C.hristopher M.arlowe), to live a single life.
> Their fatHER donoBERT reflects the _Herbert_.
>
> Agree up to now?
Jim F.
Jul 15, 2016, 10:50:47 PM7/15/16
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I can't create clever solutions for a play unless they are there.
They are like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle waiting for players. You'll
get the whole picture when you solve them all. Here is another one:
Constancia acts against constancy (Constancia = a-constancy),
for she is a runaway bride after talking to Modestia.
Modestia acts against modesty (Modestia = a-modesty),
for she refuses marriage with the help of the Hermit.
The two are personified a-constancy and a-modesty. They go to it
with Marlowe as his writing style.
Modestia's words to seclude herself are crime- more than marriage-related:
torture, Judgement-Seat, bail'd, Sessions, Death, guilty, etc.
MODESTIA.
The contemplation
of a happy death, which is to me so pleasing that I think
no torture could divert me: What's this world wherein you'd
have me walk, but a sad passage to a dread Judgement-Seat, from
whence even now we are but bail'd, upon our good abearing, till
that great Sessions come, when Death, the Cryer, will surely summon
us, and all to appear, to plead us guilty or our bail to clear:
These lines fit Marlowe's situation in 1593. Marlowe knew well his destiny,
that he "cannot fly from death." This is shown also by Modestia:
MODESTIA.
Because I know I cannot flie from death, oh my good
sister, I beseech you hear me,
This world is but a Masque, catching weak eyes,
With what is not our selves but our disguise, ...
The "world" here indicates the world of drama, and the world of
writing with a masque for the rest of Marlowe's life.
These words may be common by anyone, but uncommon when used to persuade
Constancia by Modestia with the help of the Hermit Anselme, i.e.,
Christopher Marlowe, a man facing torture, judgment, sessions, and death.
They are like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle waiting for players. You'll
get the whole picture when you solve them all. Here is another one:
Constancia acts against constancy (Constancia = a-constancy),
for she is a runaway bride after talking to Modestia.
Modestia acts against modesty (Modestia = a-modesty),
for she refuses marriage with the help of the Hermit.
The two are personified a-constancy and a-modesty. They go to it
with Marlowe as his writing style.
Modestia's words to seclude herself are crime- more than marriage-related:
torture, Judgement-Seat, bail'd, Sessions, Death, guilty, etc.
MODESTIA.
The contemplation
of a happy death, which is to me so pleasing that I think
no torture could divert me: What's this world wherein you'd
have me walk, but a sad passage to a dread Judgement-Seat, from
whence even now we are but bail'd, upon our good abearing, till
that great Sessions come, when Death, the Cryer, will surely summon
us, and all to appear, to plead us guilty or our bail to clear:
These lines fit Marlowe's situation in 1593. Marlowe knew well his destiny,
that he "cannot fly from death." This is shown also by Modestia:
MODESTIA.
Because I know I cannot flie from death, oh my good
sister, I beseech you hear me,
This world is but a Masque, catching weak eyes,
With what is not our selves but our disguise, ...
The "world" here indicates the world of drama, and the world of
writing with a masque for the rest of Marlowe's life.
These words may be common by anyone, but uncommon when used to persuade
Constancia by Modestia with the help of the Hermit Anselme, i.e.,
Christopher Marlowe, a man facing torture, judgment, sessions, and death.
Morten St. George
Jul 16, 2016, 12:56:35 AM7/16/16
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On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 10:50:47 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
> I can't create clever solutions for a play unless they are there.
For quite some time I have been saying something similar regarding Nostradamus influence on Marlowe and Shakespeare and regarding my analysis of Merlin's prophecies.
> I can't create clever solutions for a play unless they are there.
> These words may be common by anyone, but uncommon when used to persuade
> Constancia by Modestia with the help of the Hermit Anselme, i.e.,
> Christopher Marlowe, a man facing torture, judgment, sessions, and death.
I feel my essay on the influence of Merlin and Nostradamus convincingly demonstrates that the plays of Marlowe and the plays of Shakespeare share authorship. I also reject the notion that Marlowe died in 1593, but you have yet to convince me that Christopher Marlowe of Canterbury wrote the plays attributed to Marlowe.
If Shakspere of Stratford is not Shakespeare, why are you assuming that Marlowe of Canterbury is Marlowe? Is the evidence for Marlowe stronger than the evidence for Shakspere? If so, please tell me about it.
marco
Jul 16, 2016, 2:33:45 PM7/16/16
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Jim F.
Jul 16, 2016, 10:54:43 PM7/16/16
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to solve the Devil and Artesia in _The Birth of Merlin_. You may find
how they connect to Shakespeare if your assumption is right.
Some despise this play because Prince Uter "beats" Joan Go-too't,
a pregnant woman with "great belly," and starves Artesia to death.
They think Shakespeare wouldn't let a noble prince do such things,
so the play isn't done by Shakespeare. However, if you can figure out
Artesia, you'll know why.
Morten St. George
Jul 17, 2016, 5:15:16 PM7/17/16
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On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 10:54:43 PM UTC-4, Jim F. wrote:
>
> I focus on the text. If you think Nostradamus is the solution, use it
> to solve the Devil and Artesia in _The Birth of Merlin_. You may find
> how they connect to Shakespeare if your assumption is right.
>
> Some despise this play because Prince Uter "beats" Joan Go-too't,
> a pregnant woman with "great belly," and starves Artesia to death.
> They think Shakespeare wouldn't let a noble prince do such things,
> so the play isn't done by Shakespeare. However, if you can figure out
> Artesia, you'll know why.
A beautiful Artesia was the protagonist of Mary Herbert's Arcadia, probably relevant to the Artesia at hand since one of the editors was John Florio. That edition of Arcadia (1590) "ends in mid-scene and mid-sentence." The story of Artesia is unfinished. Anyway, in what Arthurian legends do you find a character called Artesia? Any at all?
>
> I focus on the text. If you think Nostradamus is the solution, use it
> to solve the Devil and Artesia in _The Birth of Merlin_. You may find
> how they connect to Shakespeare if your assumption is right.
>
> Some despise this play because Prince Uter "beats" Joan Go-too't,
> a pregnant woman with "great belly," and starves Artesia to death.
> They think Shakespeare wouldn't let a noble prince do such things,
> so the play isn't done by Shakespeare. However, if you can figure out
> Artesia, you'll know why.
Recently, you proclaimed that Constancia symbolizes "constancy" and that Modestia symbolizes "modesty", so why are you refusing to acknowledge that Artesia symbolizes the arts? In those days, the arts, especially in the phrase "by art", did not refer to the fine arts, but to the dark arts, black magic, diabolic powers including the power to prophesy. "She is a witch by nature, devil by art." It was the beauty of this art, not the beauty of a woman, that enticed Aurelius and ultimately led to his death.
Similarly, Aurelius' marriage to Artesia is only symbolic, in the same sense that Elizabeth spoke of herself as married, married to England, in the same sense that Florio referred to his wife by the name "Rose" (not Aline), meaning he was married to the Rose Cross.
NOSTRADAMUS:
many Volumns concerning that Art [Artesia] … by the help of the Cœlestial Judgement, I will manifest to you, that you may have knowledge of future things.
MERLIN:
I will in visible apparitions,
present you Prophecies which shall concern
Succeeding Princes, which my Art [Artesia] shall raise,
Till men shall call these times the latter days.
Where did you get the idea that Artesia starved to death? Are we reading the same play?
PRINCE:
Alive she shall be buried, circled in a wall.
Thou murdress of a king, there starve to death.
OK up to there, but look at Artesia's reply:
ARTESIA:
Then Ile starve death when he comes for his prey,
And i' th' mean time Ile live upon your curses.
Today, Artesia (the 39 prophecies Merlini) still lives, still hidden inside the "wall" of Nostradamus, still awaiting death to approach her, still "circled", that is surrounded by the some 900 curses that Shakespeare wrote. And that's a good thing: as long as Artesia lives, there is hope that one day the reign of the great William will come to an end.
marco
Jul 17, 2016, 7:37:30 PM7/17/16
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graham.a...@btinternet.com
Jul 17, 2016, 8:05:07 PM7/17/16
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ArtNea...@germanymail.com
Jul 18, 2016, 1:46:32 PM7/18/16
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Art N
marco
Jul 20, 2016, 1:04:11 PM7/20/16
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Morten St. George
Jul 21, 2016, 2:25:21 AM7/21/16
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I'm beginning to lose interest in Google Groups mainly due to lack of scholarly participation. Before I fade away, I have one more comment to make about your excellent question regarding Artesia.
In his Last Will and Testament, John Florio refers to his daughter by the name Aurelia Molins. First, note that the name "Molins", like "Macelin" in Nostradamus, like "Marlin" in Marlovian folklore, reminds us of Merlin.
By historical records, Florio had two daughters, Joane and Elizabeth, and none by the name of Aurelia. Logically, therefore, the father of Aurelia would be Aurelius, that is, it was Florio himself who succumbed to the dark art (Artesia) of prophecy.
But Artesia was the "murdress of a king," and Florio was not a king, or was he? One of my major theories (based on my understanding of cryptic writings) is that Florio was born in April 1553, the son of Jane Grey and Guildford Dudley. Jane and Guildford were married in May 1553, and Jane became queen in July 1553.
I feel that the possibility of Florio being heir apparent to the throne of England could be of huge importance for settling the Shakespeare authorship question. I myself lack access to the original historical records of 16th-century England so it would be up to Renaissance historians to determine whether or not Jane could have given birth just a few months prior to becoming queen.
Artesia, of course, would be the reason why Florio declined the throne, and in that sense Artesia would be the "murdress" of a king.
Recall the famous epigram of 1610:
To our English Terence, Mr. Will: Shake-speare.
Some say good Will (which I in sport do sing)
Had’st thou not played some Kingly parts in sport
Thou hadst bin a companion for a King
And beene a King among the meaner sort.
Among major Shakespearean candidates, only Will Derby could have had rights to the throne of England (had his mother outlived Elizabeth), but his rights were lesser (meaner) than someone for whom he was a companion (coauthor), which would be Florio if Florio were truly the son of Queen Jane. I envision Florio as the creator of plots and characters and Derby as the principal writer.
Jim F.
Jul 21, 2016, 9:10:30 PM7/21/16
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Good luck then. At the end, all assumptions should converge, i.e.,
all being linked together:
the Hermit: Christopher Marlowe.
Joan Go-too't: Mary Sidney.
Merlin: Wilton poets.
Donobert: the Herbert.
Constancia: personified a-constancy, not constancy.
Modestia: personified a-modesty, not modesty.
All names in _Merlin_ are sealed via one-way anagram and matched
with each other; e.g., Clown is Mary's husband _Henry Herbert_,
which is a one-way anagram of "Brother to Jone."
This play is well constructed. The same way can solve more:
the Devil,
Artesia,
Ostorious,
Octa,
Proximus,
Gentlewoman of Artesia,
Sir Nicodemus Nothing,
Uter Pendragon (that he beats a pregnant woman is the hint), etc.
Green's Groats-worth of Wit tells the origin of Shakespeare.
The Birth of Merlin tells the end. The two are connected; e.g.,
Ewe (in Lamilia's Fable) and Joan Go-too't are Mary Sidney;
Bell-wether and Clown (the brother) are Henry Herbert.
Key to Shakespeare is anagram, not parallel lines.
all being linked together:
the Hermit: Christopher Marlowe.
Joan Go-too't: Mary Sidney.
Merlin: Wilton poets.
Donobert: the Herbert.
Constancia: personified a-constancy, not constancy.
Modestia: personified a-modesty, not modesty.
All names in _Merlin_ are sealed via one-way anagram and matched
with each other; e.g., Clown is Mary's husband _Henry Herbert_,
which is a one-way anagram of "Brother to Jone."
This play is well constructed. The same way can solve more:
the Devil,
Artesia,
Ostorious,
Octa,
Proximus,
Gentlewoman of Artesia,
Sir Nicodemus Nothing,
Uter Pendragon (that he beats a pregnant woman is the hint), etc.
Green's Groats-worth of Wit tells the origin of Shakespeare.
The Birth of Merlin tells the end. The two are connected; e.g.,
Ewe (in Lamilia's Fable) and Joan Go-too't are Mary Sidney;
Bell-wether and Clown (the brother) are Henry Herbert.
Key to Shakespeare is anagram, not parallel lines.
marco
Jul 22, 2016, 7:33:10 PM7/22/16
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Morten St. George
Jul 23, 2016, 12:29:00 AM7/23/16
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marco
Jul 23, 2016, 9:37:32 AM7/23/16
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ArtNea...@germanymail.com
Jul 25, 2016, 4:36:35 PM7/25/16
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On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:10:30 PM UTC-7, Jim F. wrote:
vtview...@gmail.com
Jul 26, 2016, 4:08:21 PM7/26/16
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>
> I'm beginning to lose interest in Google Groups mainly due to lack of scholarly participation. Before I fade away, I have one more comment to make about your excellent question regarding Artesia.
Many things are alike another, and some attendance to particularities rather than associative speculations may still be valuable in discriminating one thing from another. That at least would be scholarly.
In the same vein what is scholarly is to attend on the text, not secret messages contained in it which no one, no one at all, can either understand as necessary such as to project the actual work of the author into some oblivion, nor understand the labor to insert them, nor to extract them from what is after all, spoken. Spoken, the very moment is on us with its import, whereas texts belong to thieves and interpreters.
That is, I know, a less regarded aspect of the Work, but only in this newsgroup.
It is said of religions that when the metaphor is mistaken for fact, then all goes to hell. I think Merlin would agree with me. In fact in the actual esoteric tradition this is why Merlin existed, to restrain the realm of Kings and Philosophers to factual matters. This is a horn less tooted, even so, here is where Arthur is ended.
Do you understand these terms, these non textual references?
Phil Innes
laraine
Jul 26, 2016, 8:31:55 PM7/26/16
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Mr. Morten might be amused to know that there is a (lost) EM play,
author not known, called "The Man in the Moon Drinks Claret."
(Performed 1621)
https://www.lostplays.org/index.php?title=Man_in_the_Moon_Drinks_Claret
And in ~1609-11, Galileo and Harriot were learning about the details
of the moon's surface:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereus_Nuncius
C.
author not known, called "The Man in the Moon Drinks Claret."
(Performed 1621)
https://www.lostplays.org/index.php?title=Man_in_the_Moon_Drinks_Claret
And in ~1609-11, Galileo and Harriot were learning about the details
of the moon's surface:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereus_Nuncius
C.
Morten St. George
Jul 27, 2016, 7:39:47 PM7/27/16
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Morten St. George
Jul 27, 2016, 7:56:59 PM7/27/16
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I think some of your remarks would be better directed at Jim F. than at me as I try hard to stay within the realm of rationality. If you have a comment to make on my Merlin essay, please post it.
marco
Jul 29, 2016, 9:59:02 AM7/29/16
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0 new messages