Hamlet - clouds
Lance M
call Hamlet to visit his mother, whats the purpose of the clouds? Hamlet
points to a cloud and says it looks like a camel, and a weasel, and a
whale. Then he says 'then I'll come to my mother by and by'. Is there a
reason for that other than to confuse the guy, or maybe to illustrate
that his visit is as important as what the cloud looks like? Or maybe
the animals themselves have a meaning?
Thanks!
Lance
richard kennedy
cloud animals have no meaning. Polonius makes his distracted
agreements, how else to converse with a madman? -- and more important
matters are on his mind.
mon...@airmail.net (Lance M) wrote in message news:<3edd0a86...@news.airmail.net>...
Symposium1
writes:
It's possible that there's some meaning to having chosen a camel, a weasel and
a whale. Certainly they are very distinct shapes and one wouldn't expect them
to be confused with each other. However, Hamlet is playing with
Polonius...he's in relatively high spirits, having just elicited the reaction
from Claudius that he wanted. And he's still playing "mad" to Polonius. But,
further, I think, the scene illustrates what a flattering, condescending person
Polonius is...he simply plays along with Hamlet's suggestions. Hamlet finds
Polonius "easier to be play'd on than a pipe," in contrast to how he sees
himself in the just-prior lines with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Earlier in
the same scene, Hamlet has praised Horatio for his constancy and his
discernment:
and blest are those
Whose blood and judgment are so well commingled
That they are not a pipe for Fortune's finger
To sound what stop she please.
It seems to me that III.ii. is one long exposé of character -- not just
Claudius' guilt but in rapid succession, Hamlet's firm judgment of Horatio,
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, and Polonius ("these tedious old fools", he says
elsewhere.) Since we know that the three whose characters he finds unworthy
all end up dead, by his hand (sword and/or writing), and Horatio is alone
"absent from felicity" at the end of the play, these judgments are pretty
important.
I haven't been able to come up with hidden meanings about camel, weasel and
whale other than how ridiculous it would be to see all three in one cloud. Can
you?
--Ann
Yogi Buchon
Hamlet is a very sophisticated "tragical-comical-historical-pastoral"
play which satirizes the life of King James VI of Scotland, soon to be
King James I of England. If you really want to understand Hamlet,
request the book *Hamlet and the Scottish Succession* by Lilian
Winstanley from your local library. Before you read it, familiarize
yourself with some British history around the time frame 1560-1604. I
would suggest that you first read some short articles from an
encyclopedia on James VI of Scotland and his mother Mary Queen of
Scots (King James is Hamlet, and Queen Mary is Gertrude). Really
concentrate on some of the sordid details of Queen Mary's convoluted
love-life. Then, just scan through Winstanley's book. Read only what
interests you to get an overall feel for the depth and soundness of
her argument.
But, in answer to your question, I do believe there is a good
historical reason why Shakespeare made the camel, weasel, whale
comment about a cloud. Here is a link that has an excerpt from
Winstanley's book:
http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/atoms/texts.html
After you click on the link, find the first instance of "1921" on this
fairly long page. This will take you to the start of the Winstanley
excerpt. Read a little bit of it, and then find the first instance of
"camel" on the page. This will take you to Hamlet's cloud comment, and
Winstanley's opinion on what it echoes from historical sources.
It's a lot of work, but there's no easy way to find answers to tough
questions. Good luck!
Yogi
Yogi Buchon
local library. Here's a link to the online version of *Hamlet and the
Scottish Succession*:
http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/library/winstanley/
Amazing!!
Yogi
Robert Stonehouse
wrote:
Isn't that exactly the point, "Certainly they are very distinct shapes
and one wouldn't expect them to be confused with each other"? Polonius
has long expertise in how to comply with what his superiors say.
Hamlet entertains himself by making Polonius comply with increasingly
absurd things.
Evelyn Waugh's newspaper editor is bolder, or less polished, when he
talks to his proprietor. If he agrees, he replies "Certainly, Lord
Copper", and if he doesn't then it is "Up to a point, Lord Copper".
But Waugh still makes a joke of it.
bookburn
"Lance M" <mon...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:3edd0a86...@news.airmail.net...
1. I would discount a literal interpretation of the animals
in the clouds. There are symbolic animals that represent
certain values in a biblical or classical context, but this
play isn't a moral fable or allegory.
2. In the context of Hamlet's investigation of the state of
Denmark, he exposes as a major problem courtiers' duplicity
with royalty and advancement by false pretenses. Polonius
and others are shown to be false for agreeing with Hamlet's
fooling. He makes clear Polonius'es probable culpability as
he sees him spying, etc., but killing him like a rat, "dead
for a ducat," probably shows Hamlet unbalanced.
3. At the level of Hamlet's characterization, Shakespeare
seems to be showing us someone who, while adopting the mask
of madness to disarm suspicion, uses wit sarcastically, and
increasingly melancholy--as if he were indeed going mad by
discovering how rotten things are when you look for evil.
4. Psychologically, it seems pathetic that he refers to
this childish play of the imagination about finding fanciful
creatures in the clouds, while about finding out the plot
against his father and preparing revenge. There is a motif
of childish memory expressed as he is caught in his
unresolved dilemma, as when he remembers his childhood in
"or else shall he suffer not thinking on, with the
hobby-horse, whose epitaph is 'For, O, for, O, the
hobby-horse is forgot'"; and even in the grave scene
nostalgically remembering Yoric.
So, I do find the scene to have figurative meaning bearing
on the characters of Hamlet and Polonius in relation to the
central action.
bookburn
Elizabeth Weir
mon...@airmail.net (Lance M) wrote in message news:<3edd0a86...@news.airmail.net>...
Despite the Strat claim, Hamlet is not a "romantic tragedy."
Hamlet is a Menippean satire. The line should be read
ironically.
Hamlet is making a reference to Gertrude's inconstancy,
a major theme in the play.
Like the clouds, Gertrude's affections are ever changing;
she is in turn a camel, a weasel, a whale and his inconstant
mother.
Since all authors of Menippean satires are required to be
"immensely learned" [the reason there are so few Menippean
satires}, camel, weasel and whale probably have some
significance in the Bible or in classical literature.
Symposium1
yogib...@yahoo.com (Yogi Buchon) writes:
>http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/atoms/texts.html
>
>After you click on the link, find the first instance of "1921" on this
>fairly long page. This will take you to the start of the Winstanley
>excerpt. Read a little bit of it, and then find the first instance of
>"camel" on the page. This will take you to Hamlet's cloud comment, and
>Winstanley's opinion on what it echoes from historical sources.
ONE reference to "dromedary" in Essex's papers, and that's supposed to explain
this whole cloud scene? Hmm. If the camel were Burghley (Polonius), you mean he
was just *calling* him a weasel (low and sneaky) and a whale (fat and likely to
swallow up the little fish)?
Why would Lord Howard have referred to Burghley as a dromedary to begin with?
It seems as likely that he meant the two humps to be the two Cecils (as one
"beast") together, but I don't know. Is there a concordance of "camels" in the
literature of the period?
--Ann
Symposium1
Stonehouse) writes:
>>I haven't been able to come up with hidden meanings about camel, weasel and
>>whale other than how ridiculous it would be to see all three in one cloud.
>Can
>>you?
>
>Isn't that exactly the point, "Certainly they are very distinct shapes
>and one wouldn't expect them to be confused with each other"? Polonius
>has long expertise in how to comply with what his superiors say.
>Hamlet entertains himself by making Polonius comply with increasingly
>absurd things.
Sure, while at the same time reminding Polonius that he's "mad." Which, it were
not for Polonius' unfortunate placement behind the arras in an upcoming scene,
might be important.
I was just suggesting that while I may not see hidden meanings in the animals
named, someone else might. I do agree with you that part of the point is to
show Polonius as the simpering yes-man. That's why I find a too-serious
portrayal of Polonius (as has been sometimes done, and I would include Bill
Murray in the Michael Almereyda film version with Ethan Hawke) is less
satisfying to me.
--Ann
Yogi Buchon
But, of course, you do have a valid point. I'm not too impressed
myself with Winstanley's attempt to link Hamlet's comments on a cloud
with some obscure letter which Shakespeare may or may not have read.
But then, I haven't spent enough time researching that particular
point. She may indeed be right. However, in general, I do highly
respect Winstanley's overall argument about the play's close affinity
with the events surrounding the Scottish Succession. Reviews of her
book written in the 1920's reveal that many critics were sympathetic
to her thesis. But, her viewpoint tends to be ignored or discounted by
most current Shakespearean scholars. You don't read much about the
possible relation of James I to the play Hamlet in introductions to
the play. Her book has been reprinted since 1921, and it is present
online as electronic text, so there must be some abiding interest in
what she has written.
In any case, Winstanley has not only found a letter with ONE reference
to "dromedary" but also ONE reference to "leviathan"--that's camel and
whale near to each other in the same letter written near the time
Hamlet was being composed. And what about a reference to a cub in that
same letter? Is that a cub like a young bear?... or, a cub like maybe
a young weasel? I stand by my response to Lance's question. There was
a respected scholar who made a very reasonable attempt at explaining
Hamlet's cloud comments in relation to political events of that time
period. Lance should know this, and he can accept some of it or none
of it.
Hmmm, camels in concordances? I think old fashion concordances have
been superseded by vast online electronic-text databases that can be
very quickly searched. The Literature Online database from
Chadwyck-Healey is one such database. If you have access to a large
university library, they might have it. Unfortunately, some obscure
letter witten by Essex is probably not included.
Yogi