MND- Oberon and the Indian Boy
Dogbrain
There have been some wonderful responses on the play-within-the-play. Thank
you --- to everyone. What is the variety of thinking on the battle between
Oberon and Titania for the Indian Boy? Some people think it is clearly
sexually based. This leads into a general question about the fairy world in
MND---there is such beauty fused with such pettiness. Some of this has come
out indirectly in other threads. I forgot who raised the issue, but someone
wondered why this play about ambiguous sexuality and even perhaps bestiality
(Bottom and Titania) is considered such a proper play for children. Is it
because the possibilities and symbols are so veiled? Or are they veiled?
This particular fairy world perpetually chasing darkness around the world is
an amazing creation. Did Shakespeare believe in these spirits or were they
an artistic device, or something in-between? Frances Yates compares these
spirits in Elizabethan writing to the hierarchy of spirits presented in both
Christian and Jewish approaches to the Cabala.
<Begin quote> [from Frances Yates THE OCCULT PHILOSOPHY IN THE ELIZABETHAN
AGE]
These Elizabethan fairies are not, I believe, manifestations of folk or
popular tradition. Their origins are literary and religious, in Arthurian
legend and in the white magic of Christian Cabala. The use of fairy imagery
in the queen cult was begun in the Accession Day Tilts, and relates to the
chivalric imagery of the Tilts. As taken up by Spenser in THE FAERIE QUEENE,
the fairy imagery was Arthurian and chivalric, and also an expression of
pure white magic, a Christian Cabalist magic.
The Shakespearean fairies emanate from a similar atmosphere; they
glorify a pure knighthood serving the queen and her imperial reform. To read
Shakespeare's fairy scenes without reference to the contemporary build-up of
the Virgin Queen as the representative of pure religion is to miss their
purpose as an affirmation of adherence to the Spenserian point of view, a
very serious purpose disguised in fantasy.
The supreme expression of the Shakespearean fairyland is A MIDSUMMER
NIGHT'S DREAM....[cut] This play about enchanted lovers is set in a world
of night and moonlight, where fairies serve a fairy king and queen. Into the
magic texture is woven a significant portrait of Queen Elizabeth I. Oberon,
the fairy king, describes how he once saw Cupid, all armed, flying between
the cold moon and the earth:
A certain aim he took
At a fair vestal, throned by the West
And loos'd his love shaft smartly from his bow,
As it should pierce a hundred thousand hearts.
But I might see young Cupid's fiery shaft
Quench'd in the chaste beams of the wat'ry moon,
And the imperial votaress passed on,
In maiden meditation, fancy free.
Shakespeare's picture of Elizabeth as a Vestal Virgin, a chaste Moon who
defeats the assaults of Cupid, an 'imperial votaress', is a brilliant
summing up of the cult of Elizabeth as the representative of imperial
reform.
[cut]
The appearance in the sky of the DREAM of this Spenserian vision strikes
the key-note of the magical-musical moonlight of the play. The moon is
Cynthia, the Virgin Queen, and the words 'the chaste beams of the watery
moon might also allude to Walter Raleigh's cult of her as Cynthia. Puns on
'Walter', pronounced 'Water', were usual in referring to Raleigh. Spenser
was following Raleigh, so he says, in the 'Luna' book of THE FAERIE QUEENE.
<end of quote>
I really know nothing about Spenser. I throw this out for discussion. Any
thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
BTW --- Cover-blurb bio of Frances Yates --- "Reader in the History of the
Renaissance at the University of London, a Fellow of the British Academy, a
Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and an Honorary Fellow of the
Warburg Institute and of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford. She was the recipient
of several honorary degrees, and many prizes for her work. Through her work,
she established herself as one of the leading historians of this century.
She died in 1981."
Other books by her: THE ART OF MEMORY, THEATRE OF THE WORLD, THE ROSICRUCIAN
ENLIGHTENMENT, MAJESTY AND MAGIC IN SHAKESPEARE'S LAST PLAYS, GIORDANO BRUNO
AND THE HERMETIC TRADITION.
Dogbrain
Symposium1
Dear Dogbrain,
Xanthippe wrote me that my post about the Changeling Boy ended up posting under
the "Lurker" thread. It didn't when it posted back to me, but as you brought
it up and didn't seem aware of mine, I thought I'd Streitz (re-post) it over
here.
Subject: Midsummer: The Little Changeling Boy
From: sympo...@aol.com (Symposium1)
Date: 11 Jun 1998 04:16:25 GMT
What do readers think of the issue of the changeling boy whom Titania has
decided to raise? What does he represent?
Titania tells us that "His mother was a vot'ress of my order..." but that she,
"being mortal, of that boy did die." So, the mother worshipped Titania? If he
is a changeling, does that mean his sire was a fairy, or a god? Is Oberon the
father?
Is the boy just an excuse for them to argue, or does he represent an early
example of a child custody case of sorts?
Peace,
Ann
"In masks outrageous and austere,
The years go past in single file;
But none has merited my fear,
And none has quite escaped my smile."
--Elinor Wylie, American poet
Timberize
I think the boy, basically, is an excuse for them to argue.
It is probably my least favorite element in the play.
Dogbrain
>Dear Dogbrain,
>
>Xanthippe wrote me that my post about the Changeling Boy ended up posting
under
>the "Lurker" thread. It didn't when it posted back to me, but as you
brought
>it up and didn't seem aware of mine, I thought I'd Streitz (re-post) it
over
>here.
Thanks for reposting, I hadn't seen this.
>Subject: Midsummer: The Little Changeling Boy
>From: sympo...@aol.com (Symposium1)
>Date: 11 Jun 1998 04:16:25 GMT
>
>What do readers think of the issue of the changeling boy whom Titania has
>decided to raise? What does he represent?
>
>Titania tells us that "His mother was a vot'ress of my order..." but that
she,
>"being mortal, of that boy did die." So, the mother worshipped Titania?
If he
>is a changeling, does that mean his sire was a fairy, or a god? Is Oberon
the
>father?
This is good. I hadn't thought of this possibility. Although not overtly
stated in the text, it makes a lot of things fall in place.
>Is the boy just an excuse for them to argue, or does he represent an early
>example of a child custody case of sorts?
Certainly a case of drugging the mother and kidnapping the boy to gain
custody. The question may still remain, does Oberon seduce everything that
moves, and will he do the same with the boy? The ferocity of Titania's
defense seems to imply that. And all nature seems disrupted by their broils.
In the original myths, Theseus has a somewhat similar problem---although
with girls. There are contradictions and puzzles in this fairy world ---
Ferocious arguments, power plays, and then very gentle and beautiful
ministrations and blessings. The texture of Shakespeare's fairy world seems
unique --- or is it borrowed from Spenser? Where does it come from?
Certainly
from Ovid, but that doesn't seem to fully account for it.
Dogbrain
Iamb
Dogbrain wrote:
>
> The texture of Shakespeare's fairy world seems
> unique --- or is it borrowed from Spenser? Where does it come from?
Spenser isn't in my area of interest, but I don't think it comes from
Spenser. The closest to that I can think of is the peeping scene in
Book VI, Canto X, Stanzas 11 ff:
An hundred naked maidens lilly white
All raunged in a ring, and dauncing in delight.
And euer, as the crew
About her daunst, sweet flowres, that far did smell,
And fragrant odours they vppon her threw;
Even the feel of some of the months in the Shepheardes Calendar come
closer to MND than most of The Faerie Queene, which is chivalric rather
than fairylike. Then again, as I said, Spenser isn't my special area.
Cheers,
HM
--
Scratch on the scratch pad=-
http://home.pacific.net.sg/~hsienmin/
e-mail: spider at feeble dot keble dot ox dot ac dot uk
Symposium1
In article <6m13sm$5...@examiner.concentric.net>, "Dogbrain"
<dw...@concentric.net> writes:
>The texture of Shakespeare's fairy world seems
>unique --- or is it borrowed from Spenser? Where does it come from?
>Certainly
>from Ovid, but that doesn't seem to fully account for it.
>
>Dogbrain
I think it was Barton who talked about the fairy world being a composite of
ancient fairies and English folk legend. Certainly Puck is an English sprite.
The fairies are named after very local garden varieties (Peaseblossom,
Mustardseed, etc.) This brings one more world into this play...the Athenian
nobility/gentry (including the lovers), the "rude mechanicals", and the
(perhaps) dueling fairy domains.
The production of Midsummer that I saw this mid-spring chose to set the play in
Raj India. The citydwellers were a mixture of Hindu Indians and British
military--though, it's significant that Demitrius was a Redcoat and Lysander
was a civilian. It sort of helped synthesize the favoritism of D. over L.
(Egeus was in uniform as well). Helena was played with spectacles and far
frumpier (at the start) than Hermia.
The fairy world in this India-setting was again, another
composite--incorporating various elements of all the cultures dipped into.
Puck was a white monkey who barked and clowned, the rest of the fairies had
blue skin (a la the genie in Aladdin) and Hindu-esque costumes. The music and
the movement, with little bells on the fairies' feet, were lovely. I didn't
care much for the addition of 20th century references into Puck's soliloquys
(Wizard of Oz music, etc) but it was funny.
The rude mechanicals were played to the hilt, with low English accents except
for one Indian accent. Bottom was played by a great improvisor; Pyramus' death
scene was a bit a la Monty Python. The final night he added a single gimmick:
after hacking off his own limbs, he threw himself on his knife, trembled, cried
"Rosebud", then died. It was closing night, so...
I'm describing the Orlando-UCF Shakespeare Festival production, by the way.
I don't know what made me start to wonder about that boy possibly being
Oberon's, but I started to wonder what a changeling boy IS, and how a mortal
could give birth to one, and--what is meant by a "vot'ress of my order." I
mean, sounds like a novice in a cloister, but if Titania is the fairy
queen...would she be the object of worship or a participant?
As king and queen, Titania and Oberon don't seem to necessarily "live
together", do they? Oberon says that the bank "where the wild thyme grows..."
(one of my favorite speeches in the play) is where Titania sometimes sleeps,
not "we".
Oh, a final production comment--in this Indian setting, Hippolyta is Indian in
skin color, dress, and accent, marrying Theseus, a British redcoat. She is
portrayed as the play's toughest female character--seen swordfighting
(practicing) with him in the opening scene, and carrying her own weapon when
they come in and find the lovers asleep in the woods. (There's a sound of a
bird, Theseus fires his rifle and misses, and Hippolyta raises her blow dart
gun to her lips, fires, and bird cries...and is thrown onstage. I'm telling
you they went for a lot of corn."
Peace,
Ann
"In masks outrageous and austere,
The years go by in single file;
L Wood
Symposium1 wrote:
>
> I don't know what made me start to wonder about that boy possibly being
> Oberon's, but I started to wonder what a changeling boy IS, and how a mortal
> could give birth to one, and--what is meant by a "vot'ress of my order." I
> mean, sounds like a novice in a cloister, but if Titania is the fairy
> queen...would she be the object of worship or a participant?
I thought a changeling was a human baby, not yet baptized, that was
stolen by fairies, who left one of their fairy babies in its place--so
it had been exchanged. Apparently fairies couldn't steal baptized
babies.
I don't know what Titania means by "vot'ress", but I did see one
production of MND where it started out with Hippolyta worshipping at
Titania's shrine, and Titania appeared to bless her.
Lyn
Isabella
Symposium1 wrote
Helena was played with spectacles and far
>frumpier (at the start) than Hermia.
It's interesting that Helena is often portrayed as less physically
attractive. I recently costumed a production of MND (near you,
BTW--Harrison Arts Center in Lakeland) and the director wanted both girls to
be beautiful, but especially Helena. He wanted the audience to think "Why
on earth would Demetrius give her up?" to emphasize the text "Love looks not
with the eyes, but with the mind." They were physically very different, and
I put them in very similar white dresses.
Allison Williams
Allison Williams
Julia
Dogbrain <dw...@concentric.net> doth say:
>There have been some wonderful responses on the play-within-the-play. Thank
>you --- to everyone. What is the variety of thinking on the battle between
>Oberon and Titania for the Indian Boy? Some people think it is clearly
>sexually based. This leads into a general question about the fairy world in
>MND---there is such beauty fused with such pettiness. Some of this has come
>out indirectly in other threads. I forgot who raised the issue, but someone
>wondered why this play about ambiguous sexuality and even perhaps bestiality
>(Bottom and Titania) is considered such a proper play for children. Is it
>because the possibilities and symbols are so veiled? Or are they veiled?
They're certainly veiled to children - or at least children of my generation.
Admittedly, when I first read MND I didn't know the 'facts of life'. I thought
Titania just _liked_ Bottom - like a big teddy bear. I went on thinking that
for a very long time.
>
>This particular fairy world perpetually chasing darkness around the world is
>an amazing creation. Did Shakespeare believe in these spirits or were they
>an artistic device, or something in-between?
At the end of May last year we were discussing film adaptations. After some
posts on the Hollywood MND I sent in a post about the 'Queen Mab' in R & J.
I didn't quote the speech at that time but, since no one replied then, I'll make
it easier for you.
Romeo and Juliet : Act 1 Sc iv, line 60
Mercutio: O, then I see Queen Mab hath been with you.
She is the fairies' midwife, and she comes
In shape no bigger than an agate stone
On the forefinger of an alderman,
Drawn with a team of little atomies
Athwart men's noses as they lie asleep;
Her chariot is an empty hazelnut,
Made by the joiner squirrel or old grub,
Time out o' mind the fairies' coachmakers.
Her wagon spokes made of long spinners' legs,
The cover, of the wings of grasshoppers;
Her traces, of the smallest spider's web;
Her collars, of the moonshine's wat'ry beams;
Her whip, of cricket's bone; the lash, of film;
Her wagoner, a small grey-coated gnat,
Not half so big as a round little worm
Prick'd from the lazy finger of a maid;
And in this state she 'gallops night by night
Through lovers' brains, and then they dream of love;
O'er courtiers' knees, that dream on curtsies straight;
O'er lawyers' fingers, who straight dream on fees;
O'er ladies' lips, who straight on kisses dream,
Which oft the angry Mab with blisters plagues,
Because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted are.
Sometime she gallops o'er a courtier's nose,
And then dreams he of smelling out a suit;
And sometime comes she with a tithe-pig's tail
Tickling a parson's nose as 'a lies asleep,
Then dreams he of another benefice.
Sometimes she driveth o'er a soldier's neck,
And then dreams he of cutting foreign throats,
Of breaches, ambuscadoes, Spanish blades,
Of healths five fathom deep; and then anon
Drums in his ear, at which he starts and wakes,
And being thus frighted, swears a prayer or two
And sleeps again. This is that very Mab
That plats the manes of horses in the night
And bakes the elflocks in foul sluttish, hairs,
Which once untangled much misfortune bodes
This is the hag, when maids lie on their backs,
That presses them and learns them first to bear,
Making them women of good carriage.
This is she-
Rom. Peace, peace, Mercutio, peace!
Thou talk'st of nothing.
Mer. True, I talk of dreams;
Which are the children of an idle brain,
Begot of nothing but vain fantasy;
<<<<<<I remember reading somewhere that Shakespeare changed the way
we, in Britain at least, think of fairies. Before Mercutio's 'Queen Mab'
speech people thought of fairies as 'little people', small - but not tiny -,
shy and elusive countrypeople, who had the use of magic; Cornish Pixies
or Irish Leprechauns.
Welsh and Scottish fairies provided their lovers with herds of cattle, which
they drove up out of lakes or lochs. Oberon and Titania are quarrelling
over a human child, so they're not tiny either. Then came Queen Mab,
whose coach was half a walnut shell. It's a >very< strange speech and has
no connection with anything else in R&J. I wonder where the idea came
from ?
To change the way we think, other writers would have had to take up the
idea, develop it and bring it to the forefront of our thoughts. That seems to
have happened in Victorian times -- I'm thinking of Lang's Blue Fairy Book,
etc and Barrie's Tinker Bell in Peter Pan.
Then of course, there was Hollywood: think of Disney's 'Fantasia'.
It's quite a cultural change -- and all from one throwaway speech ! >>>>>>
I see I got the order wrong: R & J came before MND, didn't it?
What I find so fascinating is that Shakespeare took the idea of mischievous,
even malevolent 'little people' , traditionally blamed for everything that got
spilled, spoiled or upset and refined it, first into the minute Queen Mab, then
into the larger (but how large?) Oberon and Titania. Of the three I find
Oberon the most interesting: he's magisterial but he's still mischievious -
and malevolent. Puck is his instrument but Oberon is still creating mayhem.
>Frances Yates compares these
>spirits in Elizabethan writing to the hierarchy of spirits presented in both
>Christian and Jewish approaches to the Cabala.
>
><Begin quote> [from Frances Yates THE OCCULT PHILOSOPHY IN THE ELIZABETHAN
>AGE]
> These Elizabethan fairies are not, I believe, manifestations of folk or
>popular tradition. Their origins are literary and religious, in Arthurian
>legend and in the white magic of Christian Cabala. The use of fairy imagery
>in the queen cult was begun in the Accession Day Tilts, and relates to the
>chivalric imagery of the Tilts. As taken up by Spenser in THE FAERIE QUEENE,
>the fairy imagery was Arthurian and chivalric, and also an expression of
>pure white magic, a Christian Cabalist magic.
> The Shakespearean fairies emanate from a similar atmosphere; they
>glorify a pure knighthood serving the queen and her imperial reform.
In that case there are two types of fairy in MND: Titania and those who
serve her and the more earthy Oberon and Puck
>To read
>Shakespeare's fairy scenes without reference to the contemporary build-up of
>the Virgin Queen as the representative of pure religion is to miss their
>purpose as an affirmation of adherence to the Spenserian point of view, a
>very serious purpose disguised in fantasy.
> The supreme expression of the Shakespearean fairyland is A MIDSUMMER
>NIGHT'S DREAM....[cut] This play about enchanted lovers is set in a world
>of night and moonlight, where fairies serve a fairy king and queen. Into the
>magic texture is woven a significant portrait of Queen Elizabeth I. Oberon,
>the fairy king, describes how he once saw Cupid, all armed, flying between
>the cold moon and the earth:
> A certain aim he took
> At a fair vestal, throned by the West
> And loos'd his love shaft smartly from his bow,
> As it should pierce a hundred thousand hearts.
> But I might see young Cupid's fiery shaft
> Quench'd in the chaste beams of the wat'ry moon,
> And the imperial votaress passed on,
> In maiden meditation, fancy free.
>
>Shakespeare's picture of Elizabeth as a Vestal Virgin, a chaste Moon who
>defeats the assaults of Cupid, an 'imperial votaress', is a brilliant
>summing up of the cult of Elizabeth as the representative of imperial
>reform.
> [cut]
But Elizabeth, or even the 'imperial votaress' plays no part in the fairy
scene, or any other, in fact that speech might even have been added
for a particular performance.
>
> The appearance in the sky of the DREAM of this Spenserian vision strikes
>the key-note of the magical-musical moonlight of the play. The moon is
>Cynthia, the Virgin Queen, and the words 'the chaste beams of the watery
>moon might also allude to Walter Raleigh's cult of her as Cynthia. Puns on
>'Walter', pronounced 'Water', were usual in referring to Raleigh. Spenser
>was following Raleigh, so he says, in the 'Luna' book of THE FAERIE QUEENE.
>
><end of quote>
I think the entire fairy scene is more earthy and rooted in folklore than
Ms Yates allows for.
>
>I really know nothing about Spenser. I throw this out for discussion. Any
>thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
>
>BTW --- Cover-blurb bio of Frances Yates --- "Reader in the History of the
>Renaissance at the University of London, a Fellow of the British Academy, a
>Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and an Honorary Fellow of the
>Warburg Institute and of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford. She was the recipient
>of several honorary degrees, and many prizes for her work. Through her work,
>she established herself as one of the leading historians of this century.
>She died in 1981."
>
>Other books by her: THE ART OF MEMORY, THEATRE OF THE WORLD, THE ROSICRUCIAN
>ENLIGHTENMENT, MAJESTY AND MAGIC IN SHAKESPEARE'S LAST PLAYS, GIORDANO BRUNO
>AND THE HERMETIC TRADITION.
>
>Dogbrain
>
Thank you for the information. I can see at least two titles there I'd
like to read.
--
Julia
Dogbrain
L Wood wrote in message <358471...@mail.tfb.com>...
A vot'ress would be a female votary, I believe---one who has taken vows and
worhips within a given tradition---in this case I think Titania would be on
object of worship, but one who also worships at another shrine. This
vot'ress seems to have also been a close friend with Titania. In Greek
tradition, a vot'ress may also be one within the tradition of temple
courtesans---holy prostitutes. The language in DREAM seems to express an
eroticism that pervades like a spirit---the play has an odd submerged
dialectic going on between eros and chastity. And the fairie King and
Queen---each of them seems to indulge in sexual liberty, while being
offended by it in the other. And both of them seem concerned with
protecting the chastity and/or the vows of mortals. And they both bring
their blessings to the mortal marriages.
It is almost as if they are married ministers/healers who can bless and help
the marriages of others, but as for themselves, they fight all the time,
they're unfaithful, possesive, petty, vengeful, but very much in love, even
though they sleep in separate beds. It sounds like they should have been
played by Spencer Tracey and Katherine Hepburn.
Dogbrain
Dogbrain
Julia,
Thank you for your range of thoughts. I think you hit on why the play is so
popular--- Bottom is like a strange teddy bear to kids, but to adults a
strange symbol of sexual danger, fun and transformation. That ability to
work on two levels is fascinating--- the innocent vs the "initiated".
>They're certainly veiled to children - or at least children of my
generation.
>Admittedly, when I first read MND I didn't know the 'facts of life'. I
thought
>Titania just _liked_ Bottom - like a big teddy bear. I went on thinking
that
>for a very long time.
<snip>
Thanking you for bringing up the Queen Mab speech. It is a strange speech
that creates a whole world of its own. Your distinction about large and
small fairies is very interesting.
>
>I see I got the order wrong: R & J came before MND, didn't it?
>
>What I find so fascinating is that Shakespeare took the idea of
mischievous,
>even malevolent 'little people' , traditionally blamed for everything that
got
>spilled, spoiled or upset and refined it, first into the minute Queen Mab,
then
>into the larger (but how large?) Oberon and Titania. Of the three I find
>Oberon the most interesting: he's magisterial but he's still mischievious -
>and malevolent. Puck is his instrument but Oberon is still creating
mayhem.
I agree---Oberon is a really mysterious mix.
In college, I played Puck, the director encouraged me to play him as if he
had crawled out from under a rock and had a problem with fleas and vermin.
It was a very nasty Puck. In that production, Oberon set me on to do
mischief, but also reeled me in whenever I was about to create real havoc.
The Oberon was a large handsome man, and was cast for that, but in the last
week of rehearsal, he broke his leg playing basketball and was in a hip to
foot cast. The designer chose to put him in long robes, an eyepatch, an odd
hat and gave him huge branch- like crutches. He got the hang of the
crutches and swept through the forest as if he was gliding along the ground.
He became a fusion of Long John Silver and Merlin, but he had this beautiful
voice. It was a brilliant example of accident necessitating a truly
creative choice.
>In that case there are two types of fairy in MND: Titania and those who
>serve her and the more earthy Oberon and Puck
I love this idea that they are from two realms---each with its own rules.
Differing creatures of Heaven and Earth. The male is usually associated
with Heaven and the female with the Earth. In this world it seems the
reverse---the female Moon, and the male Earth Spirits. Does this reveral
happen because it is night?
<snip>
>> A certain aim he took
>> At a fair vestal, throned by the West
>> And loos'd his love shaft smartly from his bow,
>> As it should pierce a hundred thousand hearts.
>> But I might see young Cupid's fiery shaft
>> Quench'd in the chaste beams of the wat'ry moon,
>> And the imperial votaress passed on,
>> In maiden meditation, fancy free.
>>
>>Shakespeare's picture of Elizabeth as a Vestal Virgin, a chaste Moon who
>>defeats the assaults of Cupid, an 'imperial votaress', is a brilliant
>>summing up of the cult of Elizabeth as the representative of imperial
>>reform.
>> [cut]
>But Elizabeth, or even the 'imperial votaress' plays no part in the fairy
>scene, or any other, in fact that speech might even have been added
>for a particular performance.
Your right, it does seem like a plug-in added for opening night. The
'imperial votaress' plays no direct part in the play, but Shakespeare does
make it clear that the lovers are virgins---at least the girls---and that
they are in danger---Cupid is definitely "taking aim at them", or more
accurately, Cupid's flower is being used against them and for them---an
interesting example of the double-edged value of any tool.
>I think the entire fairy scene is more earthy and rooted in folklore than
>Ms Yates allows for.
I tend to agree with you, but it also seems to be something more than the
traditional folklore allows. You mention this ability to change the way the
English see fairies--- was it his own invention (it seems to be), or did it
come from somewhere? Are there any models for it? My guess is that it
comes from having truly digested Golding's Ovid. I think that is the one
classic text that Shakespeare read and reread and read again. Ovid deals
with transformation, with families, with love, with disaster, and there is a
great speed and energy to his story telling. Most poets seem to catch fire
from another poet, or another singer. Whitman in OUT OF THE CRADLE
ENDLESSLY ROCKING tracks his ability to sing from listening, as a young boy,
to a she-bird calling and crying for the lost he-bird. I never caught the
quality of speed and energy in Ovid until I read Rolfe Humphries translation
of Ovid. What I have seen of the Golding seems equally energetic for its
time. BTW - I just found a nice hard-bound edition of METAMORPHOSES with
the translations by Dryden, Pope, Congreve, etc. for only $12.50. I'm still
celebrating.
Dogbrain
volker multhopp
Suzanne wrote:
> ><<<<<<I remember reading somewhere that Shakespeare changed the way
> >we, in Britain at least, think of fairies. Before Mercutio's 'Queen Mab'
> >speech people thought of fairies as 'little people', small - but not tiny -,
> >shy and elusive countrypeople, who had the use of magic; Cornish Pixies
> >or Irish Leprechauns.
> >Welsh and Scottish fairies provided their lovers with herds of cattle, which
> >they drove up out of lakes or lochs. Oberon and Titania are quarrelling
> >over a human child, so they're not tiny either.
> Many folk or fairy tales have fairies seeking humans as spouses or
> lovers, so they must have been something like human size. Usually
> they were said to be smaller than humans. I wonder if some of the
> stories where the fairies seem to be human-sized aren't sort of
> reduced versions of myths in which gods or demi-gods marry ordinary
> humans; the old Celtic gods interacted with humans in some stories and
> at least one of the Norse gods slept with mortal women.
Afaik, faeries were originally depicted as tall but wan-- not tiny at
all. There's good reason to believe faeries represented a
pre-Angle-Saxon or even per-Celtic people in Britain, who where driven
back into the wilder hinterlands by the incursion of subsequent
peoples-- sort of like the witch in Hansel and Gretel. Anyway, this
would explain some of the attributes of these creatures: afraid of iron
(a pre-Iron Age culture), or afraid to cross streams (their restricted
mobility within a greater group, or perhaps lack of a
bridge-building/using culture). That they might exchange children for
their own sickly ones or for other objects might represent some
compensation within their group for child mortality, but importantly
became a useful myth in the greater culture to explain why a healthy
child might suddenly sicken and die, or why junior didn't look like dad.
Brownies, Pixies (the Picts?), Leprechauns, etc likely represented
separate peoples-- the latter clearly "wee folk".
--Volker
Dogbrain
Suzanne wrote in message <358ae070...@news.netdoor.com>...
>I suppose I should be asking this in the classics group, but as long
>as we're both here, which translation do you recommend? I heard Ted
>Hughes had a book of tales from Ovid out; any good?
>
>Suzanne
Suzanne
My favorite, by far, is the Rolfe Humphries---for its speed and energy. It
is easy to see the parallels to Shakespeare---not just in stories and plots,
but in spirit and energy. It has also been around so long, it is pretty
easy to find in used book stores. Horace Gregory seems dry---unfortunately,
that was the first translation I tried to read. The Penguin is supposed to
be accurate but it is in prose---it supposedly includes the elements that
Humphries cut (I'm not sure what he cut.)
Ted Hughes, along with other poets, was asked to translate (or adapt) one of
the tales. These were published--- I forget what they were called---maybe
AFTER OVID, or something like that. Hughes enjoyed it so much, he did more
translations. I don't think his edition is a complete version of the
METAMORPHOSES. I like his poetry, I suspect they are good, but I don't
know them.
BTW Thanks for your post on Oberon, and the source for his name. I was
curious, because the name seems so strange. I hadn't run across any attempt
to define its source, and was hoping someone would cover it. Titania/Diana
seems obvious now that you mention it.
What is the address for the classics group? Is that humanities.classics ?
Thanks,
Dogbrain
Dogbrain
Suzanne wrote in message <3589daf6...@news.netdoor.com>...
>Oberon reminds me of Prospero. I haven't yet decided if it's just the
>obvious things--making things happen through magic and having a sprite
>at his beck and call--or if there's something else.
>Suzanne
Also, they both wrestle with vengeful emotions and drives. There is
something very large spirited about them, as well as something petty and
domineering. They each balance vast and contradictory drives. Capulet seems
to fall into similar swings--- from a ferocity to a generosity of spirit.
It makes me wonder about the actors who played these roles.
Dogbrain
Xanthippe Yorick
Suzanne wrote:
> It could just be that Shakespeare was familar with Greek and Roman
> mythology, where the Moon is associated with female deities.
This is what I keep thinking, and I'm actually puzzled by Dogbrain's suggestion
that the Earth and Moon are reversed. I can think of "Earth Mother" Celtic
deities, but I can't think of a male moon, unless it is the "Crescent" consort?
Maybe someone can fill me in on these deities.
> >I tend to agree with you, but it also seems to be something more than the
> >traditional folklore allows. You mention this ability to change the way the
> >English see fairies--- was it his own invention (it seems to be), or did it
> >come from somewhere? Are there any models for it? My guess is that it
> >comes from having truly digested Golding's Ovid.
I keep thinking that the English fairies are actually Celtic gods that had been
literally "shrunken" down to the status of Fairies in 16th century England.
X-
Dogbrain
Xanthippe Yorick wrote in message <35851FA3...@home.com>...
>
>
>Suzanne wrote:
>
>> It could just be that Shakespeare was familar with Greek and Roman
>> mythology, where the Moon is associated with female deities.
>
>This is what I keep thinking, and I'm actually puzzled by Dogbrain's
suggestion
>that the Earth and Moon are reversed. I can think of "Earth Mother" Celtic
>deities, but I can't think of a male moon, unless it is the "Crescent"
consort?
>Maybe someone can fill me in on these deities.
I said Heaven and Earth are seen as male and female, not Earth and Moon.
Although there is the Man in the Moon, I was not associating the moon with a
male deity. I was talking about the traditional male Heavens (Our father in
Heaven) and the female earth. This division is traditional around the
world, from China to Native America. I was responding a suggestion that
Oberon seems earthy and Titania is associated with the sky and the moon.
The idea is simple---during the day, the Sun, usually associated with the
male is dominant, in the night, the moon, usually associated with the female
is dominant. Hence, during the day, the earth is female, the heavens male,
but at night the earth becomes male (Oberon, the graves open wide--Hades,
etc), and the heavens become female (Diana, the moon). The shift in the
heavens has always been obvious, the idea that earth shifts its sex as well
is a new thought to me.
Dogbrain
Yse...@my-dejanews.com
Now, i do not claim to be a great scholor of literature, but it seems to me
that the whole argument between Oberon and Tinania over the child, while
holding sexual tensions, may just as well be an excuse used by the two fairy
rulers to continue contact or at least some form of communication. It
reminds me of small children who tease each other to show their affection.
Could it not be possible that the two are just too strong willed and stubborn
to admit their love to the other, so they need to invent little disputes to
egg the other on and continue the relationship? Also, if you look at the
fact that they have been together for practicly all eternity, their spats
would differ greatly from the quarrels of the lovers, and i feel that this is
why the aspect of the Indian boy was thrown in. It gives a startling
contrast to the conflicts of the two groups. You have the two couples who
are arguing over things like infidelity and then you go to these supposedly
supreme and wise creatures who are squabbling over a child. So, you may do
with these musings what you will, and please feel free to respond, i would be
interested to hear anyone's comments on this.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
tho...@mtmary.edu
In article <199806141551...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
sympo...@aol.com (Symposium1) wrote:
><snip>
> What do readers think of the issue of the changeling boy whom Titania has
> decided to raise? What does he represent?
>
> Titania tells us that "His mother was a vot'ress of my order..." but that she,
> "being mortal, of that boy did die." So, the mother worshipped Titania? If
he
> is a changeling, does that mean his sire was a fairy, or a god? Is Oberon the
> father?
No, he's a changeling now that she has him. If he had been a changeling
fairy child, his mother couldn't have died in childbirth with him. The
legend is that some human children were stolen by fairies and fairy children
left behind, a kind of trade. This is the kind of story, like the boogie
man, which hangs around because it seems useful to family function, or
disfunction as the case may be. ("You're nothing like your father or me!
You must be a changeling!")
Now, who did Titania swap for him? There's a question that never gets
answered either.
>
> Is the boy just an excuse for them to argue, or does he represent an early
> example of a child custody case of sorts?
>
I think he's just an excuse, not only for the fairy rulers to argue over
something that, once they are reunited as a couple, isn't going to make a big
difference anyway, but also to get a cute kid on stage, which audiences like.
Even better, the kid has no lines, unlike those excruciating productions in
which all the fairy characters are played by children, which has its visual
advantages if you're into the flower-fairy books, but usually means whole
scenes get swallowed up in bad verse-speaking.
It's amazing what mires of cuteness this play gets stuck in. The text isn't
really cuddly at all.
--Jane
tho...@mtmary.edu
In article <6m3hpf$c...@examiner.concentric.net>,
"Dogbrain" <dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> I said Heaven and Earth are seen as male and female, not Earth and Moon.
> Although there is the Man in the Moon, I was not associating the moon with a
> male deity. I was talking about the traditional male Heavens (Our father in
> Heaven) and the female earth. This division is traditional around the
> world, from China to Native America.
You know what? Different mythologies are actually different. Please let's
not do that New Age stir it all up and let's have a mythology milkshake with
out MacDonalds fries thing.
As a matter of fact, the sun-god is often but not always male. Some Native
American myths have the sun as female. The moon is frequently female, partly
due no doubt to the approximate fit between the lunar cycle and the mentrual
cycle, but not always. What does seem to be constant is the contrast between
sun and moon, so that if one is male, the other is nearly always female.
In Egyptian myths, Nut the sky was female, and so was the Earth, and so was
the goddess of the yearly flood. Ra the sun-god was male. Go figure.
The metaphor of plant growth as being like childbirth is, I think, why the
earth tends to be female in most mythological systems; the idea that the sun
"breeds" things in the earth would go along with the association with
maleness.
I was responding a suggestion that
> Oberon seems earthy and Titania is associated with the sky and the moon.
> The idea is simple---during the day, the Sun, usually associated with the
> male is dominant, in the night, the moon, usually associated with the female
> is dominant. Hence, during the day, the earth is female, the heavens male,
> but at night the earth becomes male (Oberon, the graves open wide--Hades,
> etc), and the heavens become female (Diana, the moon). The shift in the
> heavens has always been obvious, the idea that earth shifts its sex as well
> is a new thought to me.
Doesn't "earthy" mean something else than just associated with topsoil? I'd
have to see supporting quotes from the play to demonstrate that Oberon is
actually associated with the earth and Titania with the moon. Anybody got
quotes?
Sorry for my testiness above, but I am also being irritated by the
annotations in the Applause edition, which stretch the moon allusions really
hard in the service of some genuinely bizarre gender politics. Ah, male
feminists. Wjhere would the lunatic fringe be without them?
Xanthippe Yorick
Suzanne wrote:
> On 15 Jun 1998 03:03:01 EDT, "Dogbrain" <dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
> BTW - I just found a nice hard-bound edition of METAMORPHOSES with
> >the translations by Dryden, Pope, Congreve, etc. for only $12.50. I'm still
> >celebrating.
I'm jealous, Doggie!
> I suppose I should be asking this in the classics group, but as long
> as we're both here, which translation do you recommend? I heard Ted
> Hughes had a book of tales from Ovid out; any good?
>
Dear Suzanne,
For What It’s Worth:
Here’s two of my favourite Celtic mythology sites:
http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/myth/myth01.htm
Lugodoc’s Guide to Celtic Mythology
http://www.unm.edu/~rkoshak/brit.html
British and Celtic Mythology
This site might be of assistance in finding a good translation of a classic text.
I have e-mailed professors on this site, and gotten answers back… might be
helpful.
http://www.usask.ca/classics/depttransls.html
The Department of Classics
U. Of Saskatchewan, Departmental Translations
This one I’ve posted because we’ve batted around a few Roman names:
http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/ROMARMY/art3.htm
This has general, encyclopaedic information on the ancient Romans, but the
section on writers and historians may be a nice "background" supplement to your
reading, especially the essay on truth, bias, and point of view in ancient Roman
texts. Unfortunately, it doesn’t cover the ones we’re discussing specifically.
Still, it’s fun.
Here’s a couple of sources for books that you *might* not know about:
ETEXT
http://www.spies.com/dell/etext.html
(My stepbrother recommends this site for freebie on-line classic texts.)
asces
http://www.acses.com/
Finally, this is a link to a cheaper source of books than the bigger on-line
bookstores, or at least they claim to be… I don’t think I’ve used them before.
I hope these links work! They are some of my bookmarks, and I cut and pasted
them, so they *should* fly- but I haven’t always had the best luck with posting
links!
X-
BTW: I'd e-mail this directly, but my mail to you always bounces. (antispam!)
Anyway, love your comments and questions :-)
Xanthippe Yorick
tho...@mtmary.edu wrote:
> In article <6m3hpf$c...@examiner.concentric.net>,
> "Dogbrain" <dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I said Heaven and Earth are seen as male and female, not Earth and Moon.
Thanks for clearing that up Doggie, I didn't follow what you said.
> > Although there is the Man in the Moon, I was not associating the moon with a
> > male deity. I was talking about the traditional male Heavens (Our father in
> > Heaven) and the female earth. This division is traditional around the
> > world, from China to Native America.
>
> You know what? Different mythologies are actually different. Please let's
> not do that New Age stir it all up and let's have a mythology milkshake with
> out MacDonalds fries thing.
(snip of interesting mythological comparisons)
> I was responding a suggestion that
> > Oberon seems earthy and Titania is associated with the sky and the moon.
> > The idea is simple---during the day, the Sun, usually associated with the
> > male is dominant, in the night, the moon, usually associated with the female
> > is dominant. Hence, during the day, the earth is female, the heavens male,
> > but at night the earth becomes male (Oberon, the graves open wide--Hades,
> > etc), and the heavens become female (Diana, the moon). The shift in the
> > heavens has always been obvious, the idea that earth shifts its sex as well
> > is a new thought to me.
>
> Doesn't "earthy" mean something else than just associated with topsoil? I'd
> have to see supporting quotes from the play to demonstrate that Oberon is
> actually associated with the earth and Titania with the moon. Anybody got
> quotes?
>
> Sorry for my testiness above, but I am also being irritated by the
> annotations in the Applause edition, which stretch the moon allusions really
> hard in the service of some genuinely bizarre gender politics. Ah, male
> feminists. Wjhere would the lunatic fringe be without them?
(Ah, and where would we be without our friendly neighborhood dogbrain? WoOf!)Dear
Jane,
First let me say, I always enjoy your comments.
You aren't really that testy, and I understand the source of your irritation. I
think that Dogbrain's mythological take is still valid, and it is an interesting
reading, even though I'm inclined to think that Shakespeare was combining Celtic
and Roman mythologies. I really couldn't exactly tell you how, though. I'm still
working on that body of knowledge. FWIW, I like mythic milkshakes- that's a comic
image, and I look at those golden arches and am reminded of mother deities, you
know?
Anyway, I lean towards Suzannes's explanation above, that the moon is Diana, but I
wonder if we'd ever be able to pin anything down to textual quotes, other than the
suggestions made on the play's opening about the image of the moon as a bow, or a
dowager (have I got that one right?)
One more thing, about the man in the moon ideas: Marilyn French has an essay on
MND where she asserts that the moon in the play is a male image, and it
represents the domination of the males throughout the play. Maybe my reading is
faulty, and you probably know what I'm talking about better than I do, but I have
a lot of problems with that thesis.
Here's a couple of things French says that are interesting questions:
She says that Theseus is a rapist. I can't figure out who he is suposed to have
raped, but I assume she means the Amazon. Is there a textual basis for this
conjecture? I find it believable, but I can't pin it down.
Another thing she says is that Oberon *seems* to have a relationship with the
changeling boy that border's on a parallel with Gannymed and Jove. I don't get it.
More than once I hear someone assert that Oberon is gay, but I missed the lines
somehow. More textual references, anyone?
X-
volker multhopp
tho...@mtmary.edu wrote:
> "Dogbrain" <dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
> > I said Heaven and Earth are seen as male and female, not Earth and Moon.
> > male deity. I was talking about the traditional male Heavens (Our father in
> > Heaven) and the female earth. This division is traditional around the
> > world, from China to Native America.
> American myths have the sun as female. The moon is frequently female, partly
> due no doubt to the approximate fit between the lunar cycle and the mentrual
> cycle, but not always. What does seem to be constant is the contrast between
> sun and moon, so that if one is male, the other is nearly always female.
English is at its roots Germanic, and in German it's die Sonne (fem--
sun) and der Mond (masc-- moon). Of course, that wasn't Dogbrain's
point at all, but rather the heaven v earth genderings. In German it's
der Himmel (masc-- heaven) and die Erde (fem-- earth).
--Volker
Janet T. O'Keefe
In article <6m2gv5$6...@examiner.concentric.net>, "Dogbrain"
<dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> I agree---Oberon is a really mysterious mix.
> In college, I played Puck, the director encouraged me to play him as if he
> had crawled out from under a rock and had a problem with fleas and vermin.
> It was a very nasty Puck. In that production, Oberon set me on to do
> mischief, but also reeled me in whenever I was about to create real havoc.
> The Oberon was a large handsome man, and was cast for that, but in the last
> week of rehearsal, he broke his leg playing basketball and was in a hip to
> foot cast. The designer chose to put him in long robes, an eyepatch, an odd
> hat and gave him huge branch- like crutches. He got the hang of the
> crutches and swept through the forest as if he was gliding along the ground.
> He became a fusion of Long John Silver and Merlin, but he had this beautiful
> voice. It was a brilliant example of accident necessitating a truly
> creative choice.
>
> Dogbrain
That isn't Merlin or Long John Silver you just described, it's Odin. Odin
had one eye which he hid behind his hat brim, wore long robes and carried
and Ash wood staff. Tell me more about this production, please. I am
absolutely fascinated by Odin, who is my all-time favorite trickster God.
I find the idea of Oberon as Odin completely captivating. I must say, I
like the way that designer thinks. The choice was inspired.
Janet
Robert Stonehouse
sympo...@aol.com (Symposium1) wrote:
>In article <6m13sm$5...@examiner.concentric.net>, "Dogbrain"
><dw...@concentric.net> writes:
>
>>The texture of Shakespeare's fairy world seems
>>unique --- or is it borrowed from Spenser? Where does it come from?
>>Certainly
>>from Ovid, but that doesn't seem to fully account for it.Dogbrain
>
>I think it was Barton who talked about the fairy world being a composite of
>ancient fairies and English folk legend. Certainly Puck is an English sprite.
>The fairies are named after very local garden varieties (Peaseblossom,
>Mustardseed, etc.)
They are named after cottage or cottage garden things; peaseblossom,
the flower that will produce peas to eat later in the year,
mustardseed that produces a vegetable or a condiment, cobweb that
appears around the ceiling and has to be got down in the process of
sweeping. There are classes of fairies and these three fit the
mechanicals. Oberon and Titania measure up to Duke Theseus.
ew...@bcs.org.uk
Julia
Xanthippe Yorick <yor...@home.com> doth say:
>Suzanne wrote:
>
>> It could just be that Shakespeare was familar with Greek and Roman
>> mythology, where the Moon is associated with female deities.
>
>> >traditional folklore allows. You mention this ability to change the way the
>> >English see fairies--- was it his own invention (it seems to be), or did it
>> >come from somewhere? Are there any models for it? My guess is that it
>> >comes from having truly digested Golding's Ovid.
I've only skipped through my prose translation of Ovid's 'Metamorphoses'
so I don't know how influential it was. My impression is that
miniturizing the 'little people' was Shakespeare's own invention, first
Queen Mab then Titania's attendants, because although Titania might be
the size of a small woman, her attendants clearly are much smaller. Why
otherwise would Bottom say,
MND Act IV, Sc i, Line 16:
BOTTOM. Mounsieur Cobweb; good mounsieur, get you your weapons in
your hand and kill me a red-hipp'd humble-bee on the top of a
thistle; and, good mounsieur, bring me the honey-bag. Do not fret
yourself too much in the action, mounsieur; and, good mounsieur,
have a care the honey-bag break not; I would be loath to have you
overflown with a honey-bag, signior.
>
>I keep thinking that the English fairies are actually Celtic gods that had been
>literally "shrunken" down to the status of Fairies in 16th century England.
>
>X-
>
I think so too: the pre-Queen Mab 'little people', beloved, or feared,
by simple country folk; the subject of many tales told round the
fireside in an otherwise darkened room. _Believed_in_ by the many
untutored and held responsible for every inexplicable misshap. We call
that 'superstition', but what is superstition but an instinctive,
unaware fear of the Old Gods. Priests tried for centuries to diminish
their power, as Xian said, 'shrunk' them, but don't forget, as late as
the 17th Century, presummed followers of the 'Old Religion' were known
as witches and burned at the stake! The only excuse for such barbarity
was the belief that these followers had supernatural powers and were a
threat to the State, or, in 'Jamie Sax's' case, his royal person! He,
'The wisest fool in Christendom' really believed the threat to him from
witches was real.
Some will say they were burned for their alliegance to the Devil. Same
thing. I can think of only one reference to Satan in the New Testament,
when, after the 40-day-Fast in the desert, he appeared to Jesus and
offered him unlimited power if he would bow down and adore him - and
that surely has overtones of another religion. By the Middle Ages
however belief in 'the Devil' was very strong indeed; he had grown to be
the 'opposite side of the coin' to the Trinity. I think, for the
priests at least, who may have known more about the subject than their
congregations, 'The Devil' had become the Old Gods personified, and
grown in status accordingly.
To get back to Oberon and Puck, when I described them as 'more earthy'
than Titania and her followers I certainly wasn't refering to 'topsoil',
but to the fact that, while Titania might be Shakespeare's invention,
Puck certainly wasn't. Puck, aka Robin Goodfellow or Kipling's 'Pook'
(as in 'Pook of Pook's Hill') is deeply imbedded in English folk memory
and belongs, not in Royal palaces, but in farmyards; tripping up
milkmaids and causing them to spill pailfuls of hard-won milk, spooking
the cows, causing horses to shed their shoes at the most inconvient
time, perhaps even causing haystacks to collapse and, yes, putting
'changelings' in unspell-guarded cradles - the sprig of rowan, the iron
horseshoe nailed up over a doorway. Countryfolk took Puck and his like
seriously!
An interesting subject but that's enough to be getting on with :-)
--
Julia
Julia
Symposium1 <sympo...@aol.com> doth say:
> Julia<J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>It's quite a cultural change -- and all from one throwaway speech ! >>>>>>
>
>
>True, it's not grounded in the plot, but it does show Mercutio's personality.
>We get just a few glimpses at this impetuous, energetic friend before he dies,
>and it's this speech that makes us really feel we know him.
>
>I think that you didn't mean "throwaway" as disparaging, but I'm not sure.
No, I didn't mean it to be in any sense disparaging, just that I
considered it had no real connection with the story of R & J, just some
nonsense exchanged by youths on their way home from the Capulet Ball,
which had been, from their point of view, a sucessful raiding party -
and yet the longterm effect of this speech was so very influential. It
takes an almost unbelievable force to alter, or invent, a myth. Wagner
did it with his 'Ring', Malory's 'Mort d'Arther might count and then
there was Tolkein's 'Ring that binds them all'. I can't think of
anyone, or thing, else so influential.
>
>By the way -- woo hoo! -- look how long this thread has gotten. And I was
>worried that we wouldn't find things to discuss in Midsummer.
>
>Peace,
>
>Ann
It's a funny thing with these discussions. We had a good one with
Julius Caesar but I thought Hamlet was disappointing. It was as if we
had already talked it out - not surprisingly.
Joy,
--
Julia
Julia
Janet T. O'Keefe <jtok...@ix.netcom.com> doth say:
>"Dogbrain"<dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> I agree---Oberon is a really mysterious mix.
>> In college, I played Puck, the director encouraged me to play him as if he
>> had crawled out from under a rock and had a problem with fleas and vermin.
>> It was a very nasty Puck. In that production, Oberon set me on to do
>> mischief, but also reeled me in whenever I was about to create real havoc.
>> The Oberon was a large handsome man, and was cast for that, but in the last
>> week of rehearsal, he broke his leg playing basketball and was in a hip to
>> foot cast. The designer chose to put him in long robes, an eyepatch, an odd
>> hat and gave him huge branch- like crutches. He got the hang of the
>> crutches and swept through the forest as if he was gliding along the ground.
>> He became a fusion of Long John Silver and Merlin, but he had this beautiful
>> voice. It was a brilliant example of accident necessitating a truly
>> creative choice.
>>
>> Dogbrain
>
>That isn't Merlin or Long John Silver you just described, it's Odin. Odin
>had one eye which he hid behind his hat brim, wore long robes and carried
>and Ash wood staff. Tell me more about this production, please. I am
>absolutely fascinated by Odin, who is my all-time favorite trickster God.
>I find the idea of Oberon as Odin completely captivating. I must say, I
>like the way that designer thinks. The choice was inspired.
>
>Janet
Now we're getting somewhere! I don't know Odin's story very well but
I'm aware Wagner's Woden, in the Ring operas, "Rhinegold" etc, is
based on it. There is a further connection; when Woden wants things
done he turns to his sidekick, Logi, the God of Fire to do it. Logi
seems more intelligent than Puck - in fact I get the impression he can
run rings round _Woden_, although the latter retains ultimate power,
but he's definitely a trickster, like Puck.
Now the Celtic gods are the oldest but the Celtic _people_ were pushed
back by waves of invading Nordic tribes to the argriculturally less
desirable lands; Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. So the
_English_ 'Old Gods' would be Nordic, with an admixture of Celtic
lore.
Interesting, isn't it :-)
--
Julia
Symposium1
In article <6m74su$8...@examiner.concentric.net>, "Dogbrain"
<dw...@concentric.net> writes: >>> I jest to Oberon, and make him smile >>>
When I a fat and bean-fed horse beguile, >>> Neighing in likeness of a filly
foal. <little snip> > Filly points to a >young female horse, even up to the age
of five---it can also mean a >vivacious, young woman. Foal can mean a much
younger horse, but also means >little. In the context of Oberon /Theseus
parallels, I think the sexual >reading is justified. "Foal" can also imply
relationship, as in "child"--it has a parental connotation as well as an age
level. "Fat and bean fed" doesn't necessarily imply "pregnant" to my
reading--though the "bean" has a fertile aspect, n'est-ce pas?--but it does
sort of conjure the image of teasing, though not sexually, a big, slower
horse. My dog always barked at the sound of someone knocking...so my old
boyfriend used to tap on the table to watch him go nuts trying to look out the
window and bark at the same time. He (the dog) also barked at anything that
sounded like a doorbell...which meant that whenever I watched Bob Newhart on
Nick at Nite he'd bark at every elevator arrival. That was better than "Hi,
Bob." More irrelevant information... Peace, Ann
Dogbrain
Suzanne wrote in message <35922f3b....@news.netdoor.com>...
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:38:56 GMT, Xanthippe Yorick <yor...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Dogbrain writes on the movement of mythologies:
>>Can I make a very simple-minded observation? You said that mythologies
have been
>>migrating for thousands of years, and I just want to add something.
Mythologies
>>move with the people. As the planet became more populated, and groups of
people
>>began moving around, their mythologies moved with them. Like anything
else, they
>>got exchanged, exposed, passed around, traded, etc. It's a very simple
mix. Jung
>>says it's the oversoul. I think it might more likely just be the soles of
the
>>feet.
>
>You're right, of course. I think Dogbrain is aware of this, because
>he mentioned Jewish religion mixing with Greek philosophy and Roman
>gods mixing with Greek ones. The Greek gods we know are, themselves,
>the result of lots of tribal gods mixing together over time; that's
>one reason there's diffferent versions of stories and different titles
>for the same god.
I am definitely talking about physical migration. Something like Jung's
collective collective consciouness is probably at work, or a Chomsky like
grammar of the soul, but that is not what I was talking about. I meant the
long established trade routes and the exchanges of literature and religion
between conquered and conqueror.
>However, I've gathered that there was some attempts to fuse Classical
>thought with Christianity in the Renaissance. (I don't have any
>references; it's just a notion I picked up somewhere.) People who
>were all supposed to be good Christians may have felt some friction
>when they stopped to think that all of these wonderful artworks and
>philosophical works they admired so much were made by non-Christians.
This is definitely true. The pagan Gods lay pretty dormant through most of
the middle ages---and during the Renaissance the statuary and literature was
rediscovered. As a result, there was a need to reassess the role of physical
beauty in presenting the principles of Christianity. The burning of icons
and the Puritan closing of the theatres was a reaction against this.
Dante's DIVINE COMEDY is maybe the most comprehensive attempt to fuse
Christian Theology with Classical Knowledge---putting everything its proper
place (in the Inferno, Purgatorio, or Paradiso.)
>>> It was a question, not a conclusion. The earthiness of
>>> Oberon is a gut reaction, and based on Shakespeare's tendency to work
with
>>> oppositions (Titania seems clearly associated with the moon and the
>>> heavens.)
>>>
>>> This is all very interesting, and is close to the question I am trying
to
>>> raise---has Shakespeare imagined a world where these gender
identifications
>>> constantly shift as night and day come and go. .
>
>I hadn't thought of genderbending in MND, but this could very well be
>true. No boundaries can be very firm in a world where a man can have
>an ass' head.
>
>>I'd guess yes, but not based on the myth images per se- I keep thinking
that the
>>players themselves, men dressed as women, and layer upon layer of this
bending,
>>with the play w/in a play, where a boy dressed as a man dressed as a
woman, etc.
>>is a source, or signal of the shift. There's almost as much genderbending
as
>>goes on in "As You Like It" Maybe it's a parallel to what you are seeing
in the
>>role of the Earth/Oberon as male.
>
>>
>>Another thing- am I the only one that wonders if Puck isn't a genderless
>>creature? Why does he fly like a fairy, whereas Elfish-Oberon goes on
foot? Is
>>he a mixture, an androgyne?
>
>I assumed Oberon could fly, because Titania says to him, "Come, my
>lord; and in our flight,/Tell me how it came this night,..."
>Suzanne, the lazy auto-didact
I had initially talked about Oberon going on foot, not because he can't fly,
but because he seems more locally rooted ( I've forgotten the lines). He and
Puck seem to have a lot to do with animals, both wild and domesticated.
Perhaps Oberon rides. Puck, like Mercury and Cupid, is the one who seems
always in flight. Even though the fairies follow darkness like a dream,
Oberon seems to be a fairy king of these particular forests. There seems to
be a contradiction in the text ---around the fairies following darkness
around the world, but also being connected to this particular forest. Maybe
they have favorite places for catnaps around the globe. . Shakespeare seems
to thrive on unresolved contradictions.
Dogbrain
Janet T. O'Keefe
In article <CvBunHAS...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk>, Julia
<J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Symposium1 <sympo...@aol.com> doth say:
> > Julia<J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >>It's quite a cultural change -- and all from one throwaway speech ! >>>>>>
> >
> >Whoa, are we referring to the Queen Mab speech as throwaway?
> >
> >True, it's not grounded in the plot, but it does show Mercutio's
personality.
> >We get just a few glimpses at this impetuous, energetic friend before
he dies,
> >and it's this speech that makes us really feel we know him.
> >
> >I think that you didn't mean "throwaway" as disparaging, but I'm not sure.
>
> No, I didn't mean it to be in any sense disparaging, just that I
> considered it had no real connection with the story of R & J, just some
> nonsense exchanged by youths on their way home from the Capulet Ball,
> which had been, from their point of view, a sucessful raiding party -
> and yet the longterm effect of this speech was so very influential. It
> takes an almost unbelievable force to alter, or invent, a myth. Wagner
> did it with his 'Ring', Malory's 'Mort d'Arther might count and then
> there was Tolkein's 'Ring that binds them all'. I can't think of
> anyone, or thing, else so influential.
> Joy,
> --
> Julia
Actually, it is considerably easier to change a myth than you think. The
most obvious example is that F. W. Murnau made up the idea of vampires
being destroyed by sunlight for his film Nosferatu. His motive was to
avoid being sued by Florence Stoker for copyright infringement. Stoker
also made up quite a lot of things, including bats and mirrors. All of
these elements are now considered to be valid parts of the myth, and the
sunlight bit has taken particularly strong hold of the public
imagination.
If you need other examples look at any of Disney's fairy tales. Do most
people realize that the Dwarfs didn't have the names Disney gave them?
And certainly Joseph Campbell has had tremendous impact. He took bits of
different stories and created a pattern of hero tales that does not exist
in literature, folklore or myth before his book. Now, however, people are
writing stories that adhere to that pattern and so "The Hero with a
Thousand Faces" has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. For a stronger
example, did you know that Jesus was never pictured with a beard until
after the discovery of the Shroud of Turin? With a little imagination and
a mass audience any myth can be changed. But to see it you have to ask
the masses, rather than the scholars who know the way things used to be.
With that I have officially failed at my attempt to exhibit self-control
and not jump in to the myth thread. Oh well!
Janet
Janet T. O'Keefe
In article <p$zkDLAbr...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk>, Julia
<J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Janet T. O'Keefe <jtok...@ix.netcom.com> doth say:
>
> >"Dogbrain"<dw...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> I agree---Oberon is a really mysterious mix.
> >> In college, I played Puck, the director encouraged me to play him as if he
> >> had crawled out from under a rock and had a problem with fleas and vermin.
> >> It was a very nasty Puck. In that production, Oberon set me on to do
> >> mischief, but also reeled me in whenever I was about to create real havoc.
> >> The Oberon was a large handsome man, and was cast for that, but in the last
> >> week of rehearsal, he broke his leg playing basketball and was in a hip to
> >> foot cast. The designer chose to put him in long robes, an eyepatch,
an odd
> >> hat and gave him huge branch- like crutches. He got the hang of the
> >> crutches and swept through the forest as if he was gliding along the
ground.
> >> He became a fusion of Long John Silver and Merlin, but he had this
beautiful
> >> voice. It was a brilliant example of accident necessitating a truly
> >> creative choice.
> >>
> >> Dogbrain
> >
> >That isn't Merlin or Long John Silver you just described, it's Odin. Odin
> >had one eye which he hid behind his hat brim, wore long robes and carried
> >and Ash wood staff. Tell me more about this production, please. I am
> >absolutely fascinated by Odin, who is my all-time favorite trickster God.
> >I find the idea of Oberon as Odin completely captivating. I must say, I
> >like the way that designer thinks. The choice was inspired.
> >
> >Janet
>
> Now we're getting somewhere! I don't know Odin's story very well but
> I'm aware Wagner's Woden, in the Ring operas, "Rhinegold" etc, is
> based on it. There is a further connection; when Woden wants things
> done he turns to his sidekick, Logi, the God of Fire to do it. Logi
> seems more intelligent than Puck - in fact I get the impression he can
> run rings round _Woden_, although the latter retains ultimate power,
> but he's definitely a trickster, like Puck.
>
> Now the Celtic gods are the oldest but the Celtic _people_ were pushed
> back by waves of invading Nordic tribes to the argriculturally less
> desirable lands; Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. So the
> _English_ 'Old Gods' would be Nordic, with an admixture of Celtic
> lore.
>
> Interesting, isn't it :-)
> --
> Julia
Yes, based on archaeological evidence, there was definitely strong Odin
worship in the British Isles. Odin, Wotan, Woden - they're all just
variant spellings of the same name. Logi is also Loki, and you are very
perceptive about his character. I am not sure how Wagner portrayed him,
but in the myths Loki is very evil and brings about Ragnarok. He and his
children and the Giants battle the Gods of Asgard. Everybody ends up dead
and supposedly a new era with new Gods arises. (I'm not sure if this last
bit was added by Christians. So much of Norse myth was not recorded until
after Christianity took over that much of it is suspect.)
Considering everbody ends up dead, I would have thought it would be a
prime candidate for a Shakespearean tragedy. I wonder why he never did
it? Back to Loki, he doesn't really fit the mythic trickster role because
he is actually destructive. Most tricksters are troublesome, but are
really trying to teach people lessons rather than pointlessly hurt them.
Loki has more in common with Iago or Richard III than with Puck, I think.
Odin has a lot of roles. He is the All-father. He is the bringer of
language, the runes, and a great magician. He sacrificed his eye to gain
vision beyond sight. There are several stories that set up an opposition
of Thor as dumb and muscular who just fights his way out of situations,
and Odin as clever and deft who always cons Thor into doing something
stupid and thus proves his superiority. Odin could also be the God of
lost causes. He spends all his time obsessing over Ragnarok and how to
survive or circumvent it, when the vision he sold his eye for shows him
that he is fated to lose. All in all he is a very complex and interesting
character. Parallels to Odin I can think of would be Odysseus and
Hermes. No Shakespearean parallels spring to mind. Maybe someone else
can find one from this description.
That's enough off-topic Odinism for now.
Janet
Xanthippe Yorick
Suzanne wrote:
> However, I've gathered that there was some attempts to fuse Classical
> thought with Christianity in the Renaissance.
Yes- Thomas Acquinas fused logic with Chritianity. A·qui·nas (…-kwº“n…s), Saint
Thomas. 1225-1274. Italian Dominican monk, theologian, and philosopher. The
outstanding representative of Scholasticism, he applied Aristotelian methods to
Christian theology. His masterwork is Summa Theologica (1266-1273). The American
Heritage Dictionary
> (I don't have any
> references; it's just a notion I picked up somewhere.) People who
> were all supposed to be good Christians may have felt some friction
> when they stopped to think that all of these wonderful artworks and
> philosophical works they admired so much were made by non-Christians.
OK, I'm probably- again-saying something you know... In 1st century Britain, as
Chritianity began spreading, it did mix and fuse with the pagan religions.For
example, the chi-ro was origanally a Celtic symbol (Joan Alcock's _Life in Roman
Britain_ sparse info on this subject.)
Later, as the Church became more dogmatic, and attempted to rid the island of
paganism, the pagan cults subverted. For example, a temple to a female Celtic deity
became "Christianized." The members of the community would re-name the goddess with
that of a saint, and they would "paste" Christian icons over what was still centrally
pagan. Eventually, this lead to further types of blending. In the Catholic church,
when the accolytes come out with long ornameted poles, this is directly linked to the
Romano-Celtic "cult of the head" when the pagans would put severed human heads on
poles in religious rites. (Salway's _Roman Britain_)
Another example of subverted paganism? The mistletoe at Christmas- was originally
cherished by Druids- they thought that it "represented" the genitalia of the the oak
trees that they worshipped. Holly and berries are Celtic decorations concerned with
the menstual cycle. (More than you wanted to know, huh?) (that came off one of those
websites I posted.)
Many saints are pagan in origin, like St. Patrick. Source: _The Woman's Encyclopedia
to Myths and Secrets_. (good book, if I may say so :-) Hence, we get fairies,
miniaturized Celtic gods and goddesses by the 16th century.(Back to Shakespeare) Some
how, I don't think paganism is ever really going to die- it'll just keep morphing,
IMHO.
>I assumed Oberon could fly, because Titania says to him, "Come, my
> lord; and in our flight,/Tell me how it came this night,..."
>
> Ariel seems sexless to me, but I picture Puck as a youthful male. I
> probably just picked that up from the way the two are depicted in
> illustations.
thanks for the info. Suzanne.
X-
Greg Reynolds
Xanthippe Yorick wrote:
> People who
> > were all supposed to be good Christians may have felt some friction
> > when they stopped to think that all of these wonderful artworks and
> > philosophical works they admired so much were made by non-Christians.
Good Christians know our Lord is a Jew, so the rest is easy
> Later, as the Church became more dogmatic, and attempted to rid the island of
> paganism, the pagan cults subverted.
> "paste"
> Eventually, this lead to further types of blending. In the Catholic church,
> when the accolytes come out with long ornameted poles, this is directly linked to the
> Romano-Celtic "cult of the head" when the pagans would put severed human heads on
> poles in religious rites. (Salway's _Roman Britain_)
Roman or Pagan, heads were still displayed on poles in London in the 16th century. But
accolytes with poles? Never heard of that except the candle snuffers.
> Another example of subverted paganism? The mistletoe at Christmas- was originally
> cherished by Druids- they thought that it "represented" the genitalia of the the oak
> trees that they worshipped.
Hence "wood?"
> Holly and berries are Celtic decorations concerned with
> the menstual cycle. (More than you wanted to know, huh?)
Its just us
> Many saints are pagan in origin, like St. Patrick.
Well, Patrick has been found to be lore more than substance and his accredited
activities fall short of sainthood, and the Catholic church has decanonized this Irish
legend. The Patrick formerly known as saint. (Same thing happened to Christopher. He
never helped Jesus across a river.) Its quality control.
Greg Reynolds
Dogbrain
I am very slow on my e-mail this week. Just picking up some threads.
-----Original Message-----
From: Xanthippe Yorick <yor...@home.com>
Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
To: Dogbrain <dw...@concentric.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 2:38 AM
Subject: Re: MND- Oberon and the Indian Boy
>WoOf!
>
>Dogbrain writes on the movement of mythologies:
>
>> If you want to actually follow a spiritual path to
>> enlightenment, there is good reason to believe it may be
counterproductive
>> to mix and match.
>
>How straight is the path?
I've never really been able to answer this one, but some think jumping
around too much can be the same as spinning one's wheels. I don't know.
>
>> On the otherhand, poetry seems to demand it.
>
>Because otherwise it would be *flat* like prose?
More that the mind makes its own illogical leaps when writing poetry. Images
do not behave rationally and poetry is tied to imagery taking fire. Walter
Kauffman said that religion is poetry that takes itself too literally.
>
>> . In MND, there seems to be an
>> ambi-valency in the gender shifting of earth and sky as the globe turns
from
>> night to day.
>
>And the year turns from longer to shorter?
That's nice. Different seasons have different sexual character. The Chinese
hexagrams (I Ching) would support this.
>
>
>Suzanne talked earlier of peeling the layers back to see the different
levels of
>innocence, maybe this is the way to see the gender shifts-- there's layers
of
>gender? They don't shift, but morph?
>
I like the idea of layers. My sense of shifting is similar to morphing.
>Another thing- am I the only one that wonders if Puck isn't a genderless
>creature? Why does he fly like a fairy, whereas Elfish-Oberon goes on foot?
Is
>he a mixture, an androgyne?
It could be done that way, and the role allows for it. However, he seems
more of a boy who likes playing gender games then being essentially
genderless.
>just playing now... Maybe gender shifting is linked to cyclical changes and
>metamorphosis--maybe Suzanne's on the right trail- maybe there's a
historical,
>literary antecedent in Ovid that would be a key to the questions of the
gender
>changing...
Tiresias changed genders and his story is told in the Metamorphoses. He saw
snakes coupling in the woods and touched them. He was turned into a woman.
Years later he saw the snakes again and was turned back into a man. Zeus
and Hera had an argument about whether men or women had more enjoyment
during sex. Hera claimed that men did. Tiresias was called to bear
witness. He said women got more pleasure. Hera blinded him in her anger.
Zeus compensated him with the gift of prophetic sight. Great story.
>> Therefore the moon, the governess of floods,
>> Pale in her anger, washes all the air,
>> That rheumatic diseases do abound:
>> And thorough this distemperature we see
>
>We see the seasons alter... And it's mid-summer, when the year alters from
>becoming longer to becoming shorter...
>
>> The seasons alter: hoary-headed frosts
>> Fall in the fresh lap of the crimson rose,
>> And on old Hiems' thin and icy crown
>> An odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds
>
>Here's another complimenatary contrast that's cyclical- the seasons...
>
>> Is, as in mockery, set: the spring, the summer,
>> The childing autumn, angry winter, change
>> Their wonted liveries, and the mazed world,
>
>Or, maybe this is why we're confused: we know not which is which?
>
>> By their increase, now knows not which is which:
>> And this same progeny of evils comes
>> From our debate, from our dissension;
>> We are their parents and original.
I think one could make a good argument that the arguments of Oberon and
Hermia are a manifestation or embodiment of seasonal conflict---even
parallel to seasonal games and celebrations to mark the seasons and renew
the earth.
Dogbrain
tho...@mtmary.edu
Xanthippe Yorick <yor...@home.com> said:
<quoting me first>
>> Doesn't "earthy" mean something else than just associated with topsoil? I'd
>> have to see supporting quotes from the play to demonstrate that Oberon is
>> actually associated with the earth and Titania with the moon. Anybody got >
quotes?
>>
>> Sorry for my testiness above, but I am also being irritated by the
>> annotations in the Applause edition, which stretch the moon allusions really
>> hard in the service of some genuinely bizarre gender politics. Ah, male
>> feminists. Wjhere would the lunatic fringe be without them?
>(Ah, and where would we be without our friendly neighborhood dogbrain?
>WoOf!)Dear Jane,
>First let me say, I always enjoy your comments.
>You aren't really that testy, and I understand the source of your irritation. I
>think that Dogbrain's mythological take is still valid, and it is an
>interesting reading, even though I'm inclined to think that Shakespeare was
>combining Celtic and Roman mythologies. I really couldn't exactly tell you how,
>though. I'm still working on that body of knowledge. FWIW, I like mythic
>milkshakes- that's a comic image, and I look at those golden arches and am
>reminded of mother deities, you know?
Ah yes, the great Mother McDonald (that's why there are TWO all beef patties).
Anyway, yes, I agree that Shakespeare is combining English fairies and Greek
myths--but he seems to deliberately leave out all reference to Greek gods and
goddesses. For instance, when Hermia is threatened with being made a _nun_
rather than a virgin priestess of Athena or Hestia or someone. It would have
been simple enough to mention Diana if he wanted to (heck, he mentions her in
_Romeo and Juliet_, and in _Othello_ too, when the speakers are Christians).
>Anyway, I lean towards Suzannes's explanation above, that the moon is Diana,
>but I wonder if we'd ever be able to pin anything down to textual quotes, other
>than the suggestions made on the play's opening about the image of the moon as
>a bow, or a dowager (have I got that one right?)
Theseus calls the moon "a stepdame, or a dowager" for being so slow to wane;
Hyppolyta calls it a bow, more optimistically, if we can assume that her
marriage's imminence is a happy idea for her.
>One more thing, about the man in the moon ideas: Marilyn French has an essay on
>MND where she asserts that the moon in the play is a male image, and it
>represents the domination of the males throughout the play. Maybe my reading is
>faulty, and you probably know what I'm talking about better than I do, but I
>have a lot of problems with that thesis.
Me too. Not that the moon is intrinsically feminine, but that any educated
member of the audience would associate it with Artemis, given the Athenian
setting, and it would need a lot more explicit work to make it a male symbol.
It is true that Theseus is the one who refers most often to the moon (at
least in Scene 1), but since he insults it a good deal, I'm not sure where
that leaves us.
The performance notes in my Applause edition say, "As an Amazon, Hyppolyta is
connected to the cosmos via Diana, who is goddess of the moon and the hunt."
Thus the note-writer's production had begun with a silent scene in which
Hyppolyta worshipped at a shrine for Diana. Now that could be effective, but
the scholarship is shaky. It's like making sweeping statements about the
ritees of Druids. The problem is, these are religions that were wiped out
and whose history was written by the wipers-out. We don't know if there ever
were Amazons; we certainly don't know the details of their religious
practices.
>Here's a couple of things French says that are interesting questions:
>She says that Theseus is a rapist. I can't figure out who he is suposed to have
>raped, but I assume she means the Amazon. Is there a textual basis for this
>conjecture? I find it believable, but I can't pin it down.
Not in MND, there's not. Theseus says "I wooed thee with my sword,/And won
thy love, doing thee injuries"--which is one of those descriptions in which
the issue of consent becomes utterly blurred. Like all those "Rape of
Europa"-type stories, in which Zeus sweeps a girl away. (For years of my
youth I thought "rape" meant "to carry away"--that's what the illustrations
showed. The girls were never struggling, either.)
I think in the more original versions of the Theseus myth which I have come
across, Hyppolyta's Amazons are defeated in war, and her marriage to Theseus
forms part of the peace negotiations--like, for instance, Katherine's
marriage to Henry in _H5_. Of course, this tells you exactly how seriously
Theseus and the myth-tellers take the idea of a woman ruler--imagine the King
of France being forced to marry because his army lost--but it leaves
Hyppolita in a very gray area. She didn't consent to marry in any normal
way, but one assumes that she had some role in the negotiations. I wouldn't
call this rape myself.
Oberon does claim that Titania fairy-led Theseus when he left "Perigenia, whom
he ravished" but we never hear any more about that, and I don't know the name.
>Another thing she says is that Oberon *seems* to have a relationship with the
>changeling boy that border's on a parallel with Gannymed and Jove. I don't get
>it. More than once I hear someone assert that Oberon is gay, but I missed the
>lines somehow. More textual references, anyone?
Not from me. Puck says "...jealous Oberon would have the child/Knight of his
train, to trace the forests wild" and Oberon says later that he wants the boy
to be his "henchman"--no hints there. Again, I think this is a blurring
between what is there in the lines, and what might work out interestingly on
stage.
--Jane