Hang there like fruit, my soul - Question
James Doyle
scene I found, as always, Posthumus' lines:
'Hang there like fruit, my soul,
Till the tree die!'
tender and moving in the extreme.
I started thinking about the line and something (possibly) odd occurred to
me. Throughout the canon, images from nature are frequently used when
describing love, and lovers, and there is usually a consonance between the
state of both, i.e. when love is strong and true, nature and the natural
world is in good order also - things that immediately spring to mind include
Oberon and Titania's first meeting, and Petruchio's comment on seeing Kate
('Kate, like the hazel-twig, / Is straight and slender, and as brown in hue
/ As hazel nuts, and sweeter than the kernels'), which I also find very
affecting
But the Cymbeline image goes against nature - the fuit, instead of falling
when ripe, will remain on the tree until the tree itself dies.
Is anyone aware of any similar images in WS's work that go against the
grain, or is this unique? If it is, why? Or am I just misreading it?
thanks
james
DerColin
> 'Hang there like fruit, my soul,
> Till the tree die!'
>tender and moving in the extreme.
>
I don't see these as "nature" imagery -- more like the tree in Eden. The
section is about knowledge and error, after all -- fitting for a forbidden tree
of knowledge.
A more amusing meaning might be the visual sexual metaphor -- till the tree
die, ha, so apropos after the "rock" of the preceding line.
And mixing these, you get an interesting assertion of loyalty -- soul and body.
James Doyle
"DerColin" <derc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020628121621...@mb-fm.aol.com...
I don't think either of these alternatives can be stated with much
conviction. The implication of your first assertion is that the fruit - of
knowledge - as you say, should remain untasted, which is contrary to what is
happening in the scene, where *lack* of knowledge has caused the problems
which are now resolved. And also implies that Imogen is a fruit that
Posthumus shouldn't taste!
And the second, while something Shakespeare does, is usually more obviously
signposted as part of a sequence of jokes in such a vein, and is completely
out of tone for Posthumus. In fact, I think any link to other character's
speeches in the section is unlikely - the tenor of the writing is that
Posthumus and Imogen are oblivious to what is going on around them at this
point, so they're unaware of any ribald jokes being made by others.
In addition - and I always find this a strong point of evidence when
debating the tone of lines - when the lines are spoken the only
feasible/supportable way of doing them is as a declaration of love (no
jokes, etc.).
So, still no answers as to other 'unnatural' nature images ... everyone's
just to busy arguing who wrote them to argue about what he wrote...:(
James
Jim KQKnave
> I was rehearsing Cymbeline last night (I'm playing Iachimo), and in the last
> scene I found, as always, Posthumus' lines:
> 'Hang there like fruit, my soul,
> Till the tree die!'
> tender and moving in the extreme.
>
> I started thinking about the line and something (possibly) odd occurred to
> me. Throughout the canon, images from nature are frequently used when
> describing love, and lovers, and there is usually a consonance between the
> state of both, i.e. when love is strong and true, nature and the natural
> world is in good order also - things that immediately spring to mind include
> Oberon and Titania's first meeting, and Petruchio's comment on seeing Kate
> ('Kate, like the hazel-twig, / Is straight and slender, and as brown in hue
> / As hazel nuts, and sweeter than the kernels'), which I also find very
> affecting
It's amazing how the legal consciousness permeates the Elizabethan mind,
isn't it? "Hazel nuts" and "kernels" are "defined in the law" (otherwise
how would a judge know what they were in a law suit involving say,
the theft of a supply of hazel nuts?). This proves Shakespeare must
have been a lawyer, and should make Mark very happy.
> But the Cymbeline image goes against nature - the fuit, instead of falling
> when ripe, will remain on the tree until the tree itself dies.
>
> Is anyone aware of any similar images in WS's work that go against the
> grain, or is this unique? If it is, why? Or am I just misreading it?
> thanks
I suspect that you will find many such things in the wordplay of the
comedies like LLL, AYLI and Twelfth Night ("And though that nature with
a beauteous wall/Doth oft close in pollution..." TN).
Roundtable
> So, still no answers as to other 'unnatural' nature images ... everyone's
> just to busy arguing who wrote them to argue about what he wrote...:(
Yes, and doesn't it get boring after a while.
Actually, in the Sonnets, there was a discussion a while back, and I
and Neil Brennan, I think it was, remarked that, instead of saying
something
commonplace" like "my love has lips like cherries", WS presents
flowers and
berries etc. as stealing their beauty and colour and perfume from "my
love",
instead of vice-versa.
I couldn't remember the "fruit hanging on the tree till the tree dies"
lines but no matter how unnatural (unless it's fruit of a parasite
plant like ivy,
or so,) what a wonderful picture it conujurs up! The fruit of one's
endeavours,
the product of ones emotions, etc.
Roundtable
Neil Brennen
Roundtable wrote in message ...
I agree, Roundtable, it's typical of Shakespeare to turn a trite phrase or
idea into a wonderful image. "My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun",
for instance, is a beautiful love poem that also mocks the conventions of
love poetry. I'm sure Crowley will tell us it is about some political
matter, however.
Greg Reynolds
James Doyle wrote:
> I was rehearsing Cymbeline last night (I'm playing Iachimo), and in the last
> scene I found, as always, Posthumus' lines:
> 'Hang there like fruit, my soul,
> Till the tree die!'
> tender and moving in the extreme.
Hi, Cousin.
Iachimo is astonished at his own guilt and is
conceding he doesn't deserve to live, let
alone still have the love of Imogen. He ordered
her dead, he believes her dead, and as he first
learns she is not dead, he is shocked. She is
embracing him! He has already tried to kill himself
and be killed in battle, just so not to face his
guilt, and now he is totally forgiven and rewarded
with the love of the woman he doomed.
So the line is like "I must be invincible!"
> I started thinking about the line and something (possibly) odd occurred to
> me. Throughout the canon, images from nature are frequently used when
> describing love, and lovers, and there is usually a consonance between the
> state of both, i.e. when love is strong and true, nature and the natural
> world is in good order also - things that immediately spring to mind include
> Oberon and Titania's first meeting, and Petruchio's comment on seeing Kate
> ('Kate, like the hazel-twig, / Is straight and slender, and as brown in hue
> / As hazel nuts, and sweeter than the kernels'), which I also find very
> affecting
> But the Cymbeline image goes against nature - the fuit, instead of falling
> when ripe, will remain on the tree until the tree itself dies.
I think he meant "what in the world will it take to punish me?"
> Is anyone aware of any similar images in WS's work that go against the
> grain, or is this unique? If it is, why? Or am I just misreading it?
It is common to hear the phrase "dying on the vine" to
describe an unused talent (sports, business, etc.) I don't
know that fruits are known to fall when ripe, James. Some do, but
many cannot (grapes, pumpkins) so the conceit there is that
if unused (unpicked) it is wasted forever. But the conceit in
Cymbeline, I think, is that Posthumus is ashamed at his own
behavior being unpunished. That is the only way for me to actually
appreciate this pathetic character.
I think Postumus is a wreck, and must be hated by the audience.
He is so stupid and cruel, and the second half of the play he
is consumed with guilt. Protagonist he is not. Does your
production sympathize with Posthumus? (I guess that
if Shakespeare lets Imogen forgive him then we can too, but
I actually like Iachimo better in that he is honorable and crafty
and then, remorseful)
> thanks
> james
Playing Iachimo, are you gone from about mid 2nd til
the 5th Act? Do you have another role in there, too?
At least a messenger?
Gregory Doyle Reynolds
Hey, James, here is a page out of my Gregigmas book:
Jack in the Box, the toy/game where you wind up the
crank until the box pops open is named after Iachimo
in Cymbeline hiding in the large crate delivered to
Imogen's bedroom.
Greg Reynolds
Greg Reynolds wrote:
>
>
> James Doyle wrote:
>
>> I was rehearsing Cymbeline last night (I'm playing Iachimo), and in
>> the last
>> scene I found, as always, Posthumus' lines:
>> 'Hang there like fruit, my soul,
>> Till the tree die!'
>> tender and moving in the extreme.
>
>
>
> Hi, Cousin.
>
> Iachimo
{SO Sorry! I meant Posthumus, of course}
Greg Reynolds
+++++
James Doyle
"Jim KQKnave" <kqk...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:716b251.02070...@posting.google.com...
ROFL. Very good.
>
> > But the Cymbeline image goes against nature - the fuit, instead of
falling
> > when ripe, will remain on the tree until the tree itself dies.
> >
> > Is anyone aware of any similar images in WS's work that go against the
> > grain, or is this unique? If it is, why? Or am I just misreading it?
> > thanks
>
> I suspect that you will find many such things in the wordplay of the
> comedies like LLL, AYLI and Twelfth Night ("And though that nature with
> a beauteous wall/Doth oft close in pollution..." TN).
I was hoping someone would give me some pointers to 'manu such things'. I'm
not convinced by the TN quote - this is more in line with the 'whited
sepulchre hiding corruption', and while there is a use of *opposing* images
here (there's a word for that, isn't there?), it isn't *inverted* in the
same way as (I see) the Cymbeline lines.
but thanks, anyway, Jim
James Doyle
glad you noticed and corrected the iachimo/posthumus mistake. i wouldn't
want to be confused with that lily-white half-briton goody two-shoes!
actually, yours is an interesting point. I thinnk the audience's attitude
to posthumus is, or should be, determined by his reactions in the earlier
scenes to iachimo's suggestions that imogen *might* be unfaithful, and then
that she *has* been. I can see that if he too quick to accept her sin, the
audience may well see him as another bertram, but I have to say that the way
our posthumus is doing it, the anguish is coming across very strongly, and
there are some genuine tears being shed by other actors both when he thinks
she is unfaithful, and when he gets her back at the end. he is definitely
the good guy this way.
iachimo however is bad through and through. as he's not a very
effective/successful villain, you might have a little sympathy for him. i'm
going for a cross between terry thomas and leslie phillips, and it is
getting both laughs and hisses so far. very enjoyable to play. the remorse
in V.5 is a show, i think; when he is explaining the plot (at ridiculous
length) he does start to get quite proud of what he did, and only shows
remorse when he is threatened physically, first by cymbeline, then by
posthumus. he's a bit of a coward really.
yes, gone from II.4 until V.2. didn't need to do a small part as we've
plenty of people to play those, but i've still learned 400-odd lines, so i
think that's quite enough to be going on with. (done lear, othello,
coriolanus, oberon, iachimo, theseus. would quite like a macbeth and a
henry v... next up after this is john proctor in the crucible. how cool is
that!)
i didn't know that about the jack-in-the-box - that's great! when I was
oberon, our dream was set in a toybox, so I was buzz lightyear (it's a long
story), so i've played two toys!
thanks
"Greg Reynolds" <eve...@core.com> wrote in message
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James Doyle
image. without getting into the authorship controversy and trying to derive
information about the author from the images he used, the plays are full of
such lines which seem to derive their power from their affinity to the
natural world.
thanks to both of you for these, as, although they don't invert nature, jus
the miage, they are still wonderful.
james
"Neil Brennen" <ches...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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