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neufer
Feb 5, 2012, 11:22:51 PM2/5/12
to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupolis
Eupolis (ca. 446 BC – 411 BC) was an Athenian poet of the Old Comedy,
who flourished during the time of the Peloponnesian War.
Nothing whatsoever is known of his personal history. There are few
sources on when he first appeared on the stage. A short history of
Greek Comedy, written by an anonymous writer of antiquity, reports
that Eupolis first produced in the year where Apollodorus was the
Eponymous archon, which would be 430/429 BC. The same source claims
Phrynichus also debuted that year. The Chronicon of Eusebius of
Caesarea instead places his debut in 428/427 BC and adds that
Aristophanes also started producing that year.
His first known play was either Prospaltioi or Heilotes. Surviving
fragments from the Prospaltioi include allusions to, and near-
quotations of, Sophocles' Antigone (442 BC). Scholars are convinced
the play targeted Pericles, due to a famous reference to Aspasia.
The Suda claims Eupolis was only 17 years old when he started his
career. It should be noted that sources also claim Aristophanes and
Menander were adolescents (epheboi) at the start of their own careers.
This suggests a tradition concerning the precociousness of poets.
Although he was at first on good terms with Aristophanes, their
relations subsequently became strained, and they accused each other,
in most virulent terms, of imitation and plagiarism.
Eupolis obtained first prize seven times, but only fragments remain of
the 19 titles attributed to him. Of these, the best known are:
Kolakes ("Flatterers"), in which he pilloried the spendthrift
Callias, who wasted his money on sophists and parasites.
Maricas, an attack on Hyperbolus, the successor of Cleon, under a
fictitious name.
Baptai ("Dippers," Latinization: Baptae)[7], against Alcibiades
and his groups, at which profligate foreign rites were practised. The
word Baptai was a name given to the priests of the Thracian goddess
Cotytto.
Demoi ("Demes") and Poleis ("Cities") were political plays,
dealing with the desperate condition of the state and with the allied
(or tributary) cities.
Other people he attacked in his plays were Socrates, Cimon, and Cleon.
The following titles (with associated fragments) are also ascribed to
Eupolis:
Aiges ("Goats")
Astrateutoi ("People Exempt From Military Service"), or Androgynai
("Hermaphrodites")
Autolykos ("Autolycus", two versions)
Diaiton
Dias ("Dias")
Heilotes ("Helots")
Klopai ("Thefts")
Lakones ("Laconians")
Noumeniai ("New-Moon Festival")
Prospaltioi ("Men From Prospalta")
Taxiarchoi
Hybristodikai
Philoi ("Friends")
Chrysoun Genos ("The Golden Race (or Species)")
Storey estimates a total output of 14 or 15 works for Eupolis, noting
the doubtful paternity of some of the works attributed to the poet. He
considers his career to have lasted from 429 to 411 BC, a period of 18
years.
Ian Storey notes that there are "four ancient traditions" on the
manner of death and burial of Eupolis. Each with details impossible to
reconcile to each other. The first tradition is "the well-known story"
concerning Alcibiades. That Eupolis targeted the politician in his
play Baptai. But then found himself serving under Alcibiades in the
Sicilian Expedition. Alcibiades retaliated by having the poet drowned
on the way to Sicily. This would place Eupolis' death in "the late
spring or early summer" or 415 BC. The story, with small variations,
can be found in the writings of Juvenal, Aelius Aristides, Themistius,
Platonios, John Tzetzes and the Anonymus Crameri. The latter two add
two new details. First, that Eupolis made fun of Alcibiades'
rhotacism. Second, that soldiers dunked the poet repeatedly in the
sea. Leaving unclear if the poet drowned or survived the experience.
The story was reported in several ancient sources. But also had its
detractors. Eratosthenes pointed out that there were works by Eupolis
which were produced following the Sicilian Expedition. Cicero quoted
Eratosthenes and considered him a reliable source on the matter.
The second tradition is recorded by Pausanias the geographer. He
reported that Eupolis was buried away from Athens, his tomb being
located in the vicinity of Sicyon and the river Asopus. Pausanias
never explains the reason for a burial away from home. But it might
point to Eupolis having a family connection with Sicyon. Storey notes
that there was one Athenian family with known connections to this
city: the Alcmaeonidae.
The third tradition is recorded by Claudius Aelianus. He first
narrates a tale concerning Augeas, a Molossus dog owned by Eupolis,
and how it protected the property of its master from a thief. He then
mentions that Eupolis eventually died and was buried in Aegina. Augeas
maintained constant vigil and lament over the grave of its master
until passing away itself. The location was reportedly named "Dog's
Lament" (Ancient Greek: Κυνὸς Θρῆνος) following that event. Modern
scholars have pointed this account follows a familiar pattern in
ancient literary biography. Adding in a tale concerning a faithful dog
and how its presence benefited its master. Said master invariably
being the subject of the biography. Storey suggests that the story may
have started as a tale mentioned in comedy. Then later writers might
have mistaken it for a historical account. He finds more intriguing
the connection of Eupolis to Aegina. Verses 652-655 of "The
Acharnians" imply that Aristophanes was also connected to this island.
The fourth tradition can be found in the Suda. It claims Eupolis was
one of the casualties from the Peloponnesian War, dying "in a
shipwreck" within the Hellespont (the Dardanelles). The source for the
information is not given. Neither is the death associated with any
particular naval battle. Storey notes that the death might be
connected to either of three major battles in the region. The Battle
of Cynossema (411 BC), the Battle of Arginusae (406 BC) and the Battle
of Aegospotami (405 BC).
Horace listed Eupolis, Cratinus and Aristophanes (in that order) as
the most prominent writers of Old Comedy. Noting how they would
"single out" the immoral in their comedies. Persius addressed his
works to those inspired by "bold Kratinos", "angry Eupolis", and "the
grand old man" (Aristophanes). The Saturnalia by Macrobius mentions:
"Everyone knows Eupolis, who must be considered among the elegant
poets of Old Comedy."
With Eupolis combined a lively and fertile imagination with sound
practical judgment. He was reputed to equal Aristophanes in the
elegance and purity of his diction, and Cratinus in his command of
irony and sarcasm.>>
Eupolis (ca. 446 BC – 411 BC) was an Athenian poet of the Old Comedy,
who flourished during the time of the Peloponnesian War.
Nothing whatsoever is known of his personal history. There are few
sources on when he first appeared on the stage. A short history of
Greek Comedy, written by an anonymous writer of antiquity, reports
that Eupolis first produced in the year where Apollodorus was the
Eponymous archon, which would be 430/429 BC. The same source claims
Phrynichus also debuted that year. The Chronicon of Eusebius of
Caesarea instead places his debut in 428/427 BC and adds that
Aristophanes also started producing that year.
His first known play was either Prospaltioi or Heilotes. Surviving
fragments from the Prospaltioi include allusions to, and near-
quotations of, Sophocles' Antigone (442 BC). Scholars are convinced
the play targeted Pericles, due to a famous reference to Aspasia.
The Suda claims Eupolis was only 17 years old when he started his
career. It should be noted that sources also claim Aristophanes and
Menander were adolescents (epheboi) at the start of their own careers.
This suggests a tradition concerning the precociousness of poets.
Although he was at first on good terms with Aristophanes, their
relations subsequently became strained, and they accused each other,
in most virulent terms, of imitation and plagiarism.
Eupolis obtained first prize seven times, but only fragments remain of
the 19 titles attributed to him. Of these, the best known are:
Kolakes ("Flatterers"), in which he pilloried the spendthrift
Callias, who wasted his money on sophists and parasites.
Maricas, an attack on Hyperbolus, the successor of Cleon, under a
fictitious name.
Baptai ("Dippers," Latinization: Baptae)[7], against Alcibiades
and his groups, at which profligate foreign rites were practised. The
word Baptai was a name given to the priests of the Thracian goddess
Cotytto.
Demoi ("Demes") and Poleis ("Cities") were political plays,
dealing with the desperate condition of the state and with the allied
(or tributary) cities.
Other people he attacked in his plays were Socrates, Cimon, and Cleon.
The following titles (with associated fragments) are also ascribed to
Eupolis:
Aiges ("Goats")
Astrateutoi ("People Exempt From Military Service"), or Androgynai
("Hermaphrodites")
Autolykos ("Autolycus", two versions)
Diaiton
Dias ("Dias")
Heilotes ("Helots")
Klopai ("Thefts")
Lakones ("Laconians")
Noumeniai ("New-Moon Festival")
Prospaltioi ("Men From Prospalta")
Taxiarchoi
Hybristodikai
Philoi ("Friends")
Chrysoun Genos ("The Golden Race (or Species)")
Storey estimates a total output of 14 or 15 works for Eupolis, noting
the doubtful paternity of some of the works attributed to the poet. He
considers his career to have lasted from 429 to 411 BC, a period of 18
years.
Ian Storey notes that there are "four ancient traditions" on the
manner of death and burial of Eupolis. Each with details impossible to
reconcile to each other. The first tradition is "the well-known story"
concerning Alcibiades. That Eupolis targeted the politician in his
play Baptai. But then found himself serving under Alcibiades in the
Sicilian Expedition. Alcibiades retaliated by having the poet drowned
on the way to Sicily. This would place Eupolis' death in "the late
spring or early summer" or 415 BC. The story, with small variations,
can be found in the writings of Juvenal, Aelius Aristides, Themistius,
Platonios, John Tzetzes and the Anonymus Crameri. The latter two add
two new details. First, that Eupolis made fun of Alcibiades'
rhotacism. Second, that soldiers dunked the poet repeatedly in the
sea. Leaving unclear if the poet drowned or survived the experience.
The story was reported in several ancient sources. But also had its
detractors. Eratosthenes pointed out that there were works by Eupolis
which were produced following the Sicilian Expedition. Cicero quoted
Eratosthenes and considered him a reliable source on the matter.
The second tradition is recorded by Pausanias the geographer. He
reported that Eupolis was buried away from Athens, his tomb being
located in the vicinity of Sicyon and the river Asopus. Pausanias
never explains the reason for a burial away from home. But it might
point to Eupolis having a family connection with Sicyon. Storey notes
that there was one Athenian family with known connections to this
city: the Alcmaeonidae.
The third tradition is recorded by Claudius Aelianus. He first
narrates a tale concerning Augeas, a Molossus dog owned by Eupolis,
and how it protected the property of its master from a thief. He then
mentions that Eupolis eventually died and was buried in Aegina. Augeas
maintained constant vigil and lament over the grave of its master
until passing away itself. The location was reportedly named "Dog's
Lament" (Ancient Greek: Κυνὸς Θρῆνος) following that event. Modern
scholars have pointed this account follows a familiar pattern in
ancient literary biography. Adding in a tale concerning a faithful dog
and how its presence benefited its master. Said master invariably
being the subject of the biography. Storey suggests that the story may
have started as a tale mentioned in comedy. Then later writers might
have mistaken it for a historical account. He finds more intriguing
the connection of Eupolis to Aegina. Verses 652-655 of "The
Acharnians" imply that Aristophanes was also connected to this island.
The fourth tradition can be found in the Suda. It claims Eupolis was
one of the casualties from the Peloponnesian War, dying "in a
shipwreck" within the Hellespont (the Dardanelles). The source for the
information is not given. Neither is the death associated with any
particular naval battle. Storey notes that the death might be
connected to either of three major battles in the region. The Battle
of Cynossema (411 BC), the Battle of Arginusae (406 BC) and the Battle
of Aegospotami (405 BC).
Horace listed Eupolis, Cratinus and Aristophanes (in that order) as
the most prominent writers of Old Comedy. Noting how they would
"single out" the immoral in their comedies. Persius addressed his
works to those inspired by "bold Kratinos", "angry Eupolis", and "the
grand old man" (Aristophanes). The Saturnalia by Macrobius mentions:
"Everyone knows Eupolis, who must be considered among the elegant
poets of Old Comedy."
With Eupolis combined a lively and fertile imagination with sound
practical judgment. He was reputed to equal Aristophanes in the
elegance and purity of his diction, and Cratinus in his command of
irony and sarcasm.>>
Robin G.
Feb 6, 2012, 3:55:42 AM2/6/12
to
On Feb 5, 8:22 pm, neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupolis
Art,
What is your reason for posting this? Are you attempting to make some
point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean theatre and drama is
limited. When you post something about drama and theatre in another
country or period, you're spreading your ignorance to thin.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupolis
Art,
What is your reason for posting this? Are you attempting to make some
point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean theatre and drama is
limited. When you post something about drama and theatre in another
country or period, you're spreading your ignorance to thin.
neufer
Feb 6, 2012, 8:52:38 AM2/6/12
to
"Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
>
> Art,
>
> What is your reason for posting this? Are you attempting
> to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
Attempting to make some point, Robin:
>
> Art,
>
> What is your reason for posting this? Are you attempting
> to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
*EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* was one of the best Poets for Comedy among the
Greeks and: "so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us be[E], Edward Earle
of Oxforde." Both Eupolis & Oxforde made fun of the powers to be and
died under mysterious circumstances.
------------------------------------------------------
A Comparative Discourse of our English Poets,
with the Greeke, Latine, and Italian Poets. Palladis Tamia.
Wits Treasury being the Second Part of Wits Common Wealth.
By Francis Meres Maister of Artes of both Universities.
Rev. Francis Meres {14428 letters}
.................................................
The best Poets for Comedy among the Greeks are these,
Menander, Aristophanes, *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* , Alexis Terius,
Nicostratus, Amipsias Atheniensis, Anaxedrides, Rhodius,
Aristonymus, Archippus Atheniensis and Callias Atheniensis; and among
the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na[E]uius, Sext. Turpilius, Licinius
Imbrex, and Virgi[L]ius Romanus: so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us
be[E], Edward Earle of Oxforde, D{O}ctor Gager of Oxford[E], Maister
Rowley once a rar{E} Scholler of learned [P]embrooke Hall in
Cambrid{G}e, Maister Edwardes one of her Majesties Chappell, eloquent
and wittie John Lilly, {Lodge}, Gascoyne, *GREENE*, Shakespeare,
*Thomas Nash* , Thomas Heywood, Anthony Mundye our best plotter,
Chapman, Porter, *WILSON, HATHWAY* , and Henry Chettle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
January 17, 1579 marriage of
. " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
.
November 27, 1582 Wm Shaxpere & Anna Whateley of Temple Grafton
November 28, 1582 William Shagspere & Anne Hathwey of Stratford
.
- Stratford Church Register entries
-----------------------------------------------------------------
and among the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na-
________ <= 40 =>
[E] uiusSextTurpiliusLic i -n- iusImbrexandVirgi
[L] iusRomanussothebestf o {R} Comedyamongstusbe
[E]*EdwardEarleofOxforde* D {O} ctorGagerofOxford
[E] MaisterRowleyonceara r {E} Scholleroflearned
[P] embrookeHallinCambri d {G} e
{GEOR} -40
[PEELE] -40 {both ? 570,000}
....................................................
As Italy had Dante, Boccace, Petrarch, Tasso, Celiano and Ariosto:
so England had Mathew Roydon, Thomas Atchelow, Thomas Watson,
Thomas Kid, Robert *GREENE* and *GEORge PEELE*.
.....................................................
And so is now our *WITTIE WILSON*, who, for learning
and extemporall witte in this facultie, is without compare
or compeere, As to his great and eternall commendations
he manifested in his chalenge at the *SWANNE* on the
Bank{E}side. As *ACHILLES* tortured the deade bodie
of Hector, a{N}d as Antonius, and his wife Fulvia
tormente[D] th[E] li[V]el{E}ss[E] co[R]ps of Cicero: so
*GABRIELL HARVEY* hath shewed th{E} same inhumanitie to
*GREENE* that lies full low in (H)is g{R}ave. As Eupol(I)s of
Athens used g(R)eat libertie in t(A)xin{G} the vices of (M)en:
so dooth *Thomas Nash*, witnesse the broode of the *HARVEYs*
.....................................................
at the *SWANNE* <= 15 =>
.
. -o-n t-h-e B-a-n k{E}s i-d-e A
. -s*A C H I L L E S*t o r t u r
. e d t h e d e a d e b o d i e
. -o-f H-e-c t-o-r a{N}d a-s-A n
. -t-o n i u s a n d h i s w i f
. e F u l v i a t o r m e n t e
. [D]t h[E]l i[V]e l{E}s s[E]c o[R]
. [R]p s o f C i c e r o s o*G A
. B R I E L L H A R V E Y*h a t
. -h-s h-e-w e-d-t h{E}s a-m-e i
. -n-h u m a n i t i e t o G R E
. E N E t h a t l i e s f u l l
. -l-o w-i-n(H)i-s g{R}a v-e-A s
. -E-u p o l(I)s o f A t h e n s
. u s e d g(R)e a t l i b e r t
. -i-e i-n-t(A)x-i n{G}t h-e-v i
. -c-e s o f(M)e n s o d o o t h
. T h o m a s N a s h w i t n e
. -s-s e-t-h e-b-r o-o-d e-o-f t
. -h-e*H A R V E Y s*
.
[DEVEER] 3 {2,600,000} [Probability ~ 1 in 180]
{GREENE} -45 {86,000}
(HIRAM) 15 {65,000}
---------------------------------------------------
"Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
>
> Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> theatre and drama is limited.
But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
>
> Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> theatre and drama is limited.
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
Feb 7, 2012, 1:59:05 PM2/7/12
to
In article
<e73fc743-2252-46ef...@w19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
> > Are you attempting
> > to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
The technical term is "core dump."
> Attempting to make some point, Robin:
Really?! You astonish me, Art!
> *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* was one of the best Poets for Comedy among the
> Greeks and: "so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us be[E], Edward Earle
> of Oxforde." Both Eupolis & Oxforde made fun of the powers to be [sic]
Is English your native tongue, Art?
In any case, making fun of the powers that be -- or if you prefer,
Art, the "powers to be [sic]" -- is a commonplace practice among comic
writers; it is not confined either to Eupolis or to Oxford. In fact,
not a *single one* of Oxford's comedies survives, so it simply is not
known whether he ridiculed the "powers to be [sic]" or not -- you are
engaging in wanton, unsupported speculation, Art.
> and
> died under mysterious circumstances.
Huh? The circumstances of Oxford's death are not particularly
"mysterious." While the exact cause of death may not be known with
certainty, that's not an uncommon state of affairs for persons who died
four centuries ago. WhateVER "point" you were attempting -- haplessly
-- to make appears to have evaporated completely, Art.
> A Comparative Discourse of our English Poets,
> with the Greeke, Latine, and Italian Poets. Palladis Tamia.
> Wits Treasury being the Second Part of Wits Common Wealth.
>
> By Francis Meres Maister of Artes of both Universities.
> Rev. Francis Meres {14428 letters}
> .................................................
> The best Poets for Comedy among the Greeks are these,
> Menander, Aristophanes, *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* , Alexis Terius,
> Nicostratus, Amipsias Atheniensis, Anaxedrides, Rhodius,
> Aristonymus, Archippus Atheniensis and Callias Atheniensis;
Why do you single out Eupolis when he is merely third in a list of
nearly a dozen, Art?
> and among
> the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na[E]uius, Sext. Turpilius, Licinius
> Imbrex, and Virgi[L]ius Romanus: so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us
> be[E], Edward Earle of Oxforde, D{O}ctor Gager of Oxford[E], Maister
> Rowley once a rar{E} Scholler of learned [P]embrooke Hall in
> Cambrid{G}e, Maister Edwardes one of her Majesties Chappell, eloquent
> and wittie John Lilly, {Lodge}, Gascoyne, *GREENE*, Shakespeare,
> *Thomas Nash* , Thomas Heywood, Anthony Mundye our best plotter,
> Chapman, Porter, *WILSON, HATHWAY* , and Henry Chettle.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> January 17, 1579 marriage of
> . " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
Huh? What on earth does this have to do with the above list of
comedic writers, Art? Are you *really* blithely unaware that "Hathaway"
and "Wilson" are exceedingly common English surnames? Well, perhaps you
are -- after, all we have seen what a moronic moniment you made of
yourself in the matter of the surname "Gay," which isn't even as common
as either "Wilson" or "Hathaway."
[...]
according to your own account, you don't pay attention to strings of
fewer than five letters -- remember? And "PEELE", while not actually
outright nonsense, is at best cretinous crackpot cryptography.
HoweVER, you have not even begun to fathom the explosive secrets
concealed in this text, Art. For example:
euiussextturpil[I]u[S]liciniusimbrexandvirgil
iusromanussothe[B]e[S]tforcomedyamongstusbeee
dwardearleofoxf[O]r[D]edoctorgagerofoxfordema
isterrowleyonce[A]r[A]rescholleroflearnedpemb
rookehallincamb[R]i[D]ge
<= 41 =>
There you have it, Art: "I, boar: S.'s Dad"! "S.", of course, is
"Southampton." Two columns to the right, one can also find John Dee's
surname concealed. Finally, 41 is a *much* better number for your
purposes than 40, Art -- indeed, 41 is both the sum of two consecutive
integers and the difference of their squares!
Or, if you prefer, consider this:
euiussextturpiliu[S]liciniusimbrexandvirg
iliusromanussothe[B]estforcomedyamongstus
beeedwardearleofo[X]fordedoctorgagerofoxf
ordemaisterrowley[O]nceararescholleroflea
rnedpembrookehall[I]ncambridge
<= 39 =>
There you go, Art: "I, Ox?! B.S.!" And again, 39 is both the sum of
two consecutive integers and the difference of their squares.
And have you considered the possibility that "Rowley" is a typo for
"Crowley," Art? After all, the characterization "Maister Crowley, once
a rare scholler" fits like a glove! Any of these readings is infinitely
superior to cretinous crap like "ROEG".
Finally, there is an oVERarching point that you might wish to
consider, Art: in an era when spelling was not standardized and a name
could be and was spelled in a half-dozen ways of varying lengths, so
that one could find "Wilson" also spelled as "Willsonne," etc., it would
have been sheer folly to encode messages using equidistant letter
sequences in a text to be printed, since the alternative spellings and
adjustments made by typesetters would be virtually certain to destroy
the ELS. Indeed, in that era, one would have to be a lunatic or an
idiot to conceal messages using equidistant letter sequences into texts
to be deliVERED to a printer, and in this era one must be a lunatic or
an idiot to seek messages concealed by equidistant letter sequences in
Elizabethan era printed texts. But perhaps you are trying to qualify on
both counts, Art?
[Lunatic logorrhea snipped]
> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> > Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> > theatre and drama is limited.
"Limited" is far too generous; "nonexistent" is more the _mot juste_
in this case.
> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
Evidence, Art? Hint: "Attic drama" does not refer to the amateur
theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
> Art Neuendorffer
<e73fc743-2252-46ef...@w19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
neufer <acne...@gmail.com> (aka Noonedafter) wrote:
> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> > Art,
> >
> > What is your reason for posting this?
I wondered the same thing myself.
> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> > Art,
> >
> > What is your reason for posting this?
> > Are you attempting
> > to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
> Attempting to make some point, Robin:
> *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* was one of the best Poets for Comedy among the
> Greeks and: "so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us be[E], Edward Earle
Is English your native tongue, Art?
In any case, making fun of the powers that be -- or if you prefer,
Art, the "powers to be [sic]" -- is a commonplace practice among comic
writers; it is not confined either to Eupolis or to Oxford. In fact,
not a *single one* of Oxford's comedies survives, so it simply is not
known whether he ridiculed the "powers to be [sic]" or not -- you are
engaging in wanton, unsupported speculation, Art.
> and
> died under mysterious circumstances.
"mysterious." While the exact cause of death may not be known with
certainty, that's not an uncommon state of affairs for persons who died
four centuries ago. WhateVER "point" you were attempting -- haplessly
-- to make appears to have evaporated completely, Art.
> A Comparative Discourse of our English Poets,
> with the Greeke, Latine, and Italian Poets. Palladis Tamia.
> Wits Treasury being the Second Part of Wits Common Wealth.
>
> By Francis Meres Maister of Artes of both Universities.
> Rev. Francis Meres {14428 letters}
> .................................................
> The best Poets for Comedy among the Greeks are these,
> Menander, Aristophanes, *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* , Alexis Terius,
> Nicostratus, Amipsias Atheniensis, Anaxedrides, Rhodius,
> Aristonymus, Archippus Atheniensis and Callias Atheniensis;
nearly a dozen, Art?
> and among
> the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na[E]uius, Sext. Turpilius, Licinius
> Imbrex, and Virgi[L]ius Romanus: so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us
> be[E], Edward Earle of Oxforde, D{O}ctor Gager of Oxford[E], Maister
> Rowley once a rar{E} Scholler of learned [P]embrooke Hall in
> Cambrid{G}e, Maister Edwardes one of her Majesties Chappell, eloquent
> and wittie John Lilly, {Lodge}, Gascoyne, *GREENE*, Shakespeare,
> *Thomas Nash* , Thomas Heywood, Anthony Mundye our best plotter,
> Chapman, Porter, *WILSON, HATHWAY* , and Henry Chettle.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> January 17, 1579 marriage of
> . " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
comedic writers, Art? Are you *really* blithely unaware that "Hathaway"
and "Wilson" are exceedingly common English surnames? Well, perhaps you
are -- after, all we have seen what a moronic moniment you made of
yourself in the matter of the surname "Gay," which isn't even as common
as either "Wilson" or "Hathaway."
[...]
> and among the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na-
>
> ________ <= 40 =>
>
> [E] uiusSextTurpiliusLic i -n- iusImbrexandVirgi
> [L] iusRomanussothebestf o {R} Comedyamongstusbe
> [E]*EdwardEarleofOxforde* D {O} ctorGagerofOxford
> [E] MaisterRowleyonceara r {E} Scholleroflearned
> [P] embrookeHallinCambri d {G} e
>
> {GEOR} -40
Both "GEOR" and "ROEG" are cretinous nonsense, Art. Besides,
>
> ________ <= 40 =>
>
> [E] uiusSextTurpiliusLic i -n- iusImbrexandVirgi
> [L] iusRomanussothebestf o {R} Comedyamongstusbe
> [E]*EdwardEarleofOxforde* D {O} ctorGagerofOxford
> [E] MaisterRowleyonceara r {E} Scholleroflearned
> [P] embrookeHallinCambri d {G} e
>
> {GEOR} -40
according to your own account, you don't pay attention to strings of
fewer than five letters -- remember? And "PEELE", while not actually
outright nonsense, is at best cretinous crackpot cryptography.
HoweVER, you have not even begun to fathom the explosive secrets
concealed in this text, Art. For example:
euiussextturpil[I]u[S]liciniusimbrexandvirgil
iusromanussothe[B]e[S]tforcomedyamongstusbeee
dwardearleofoxf[O]r[D]edoctorgagerofoxfordema
isterrowleyonce[A]r[A]rescholleroflearnedpemb
rookehallincamb[R]i[D]ge
<= 41 =>
There you have it, Art: "I, boar: S.'s Dad"! "S.", of course, is
"Southampton." Two columns to the right, one can also find John Dee's
surname concealed. Finally, 41 is a *much* better number for your
purposes than 40, Art -- indeed, 41 is both the sum of two consecutive
integers and the difference of their squares!
Or, if you prefer, consider this:
euiussextturpiliu[S]liciniusimbrexandvirg
iliusromanussothe[B]estforcomedyamongstus
beeedwardearleofo[X]fordedoctorgagerofoxf
ordemaisterrowley[O]nceararescholleroflea
rnedpembrookehall[I]ncambridge
<= 39 =>
There you go, Art: "I, Ox?! B.S.!" And again, 39 is both the sum of
two consecutive integers and the difference of their squares.
And have you considered the possibility that "Rowley" is a typo for
"Crowley," Art? After all, the characterization "Maister Crowley, once
a rare scholler" fits like a glove! Any of these readings is infinitely
superior to cretinous crap like "ROEG".
Finally, there is an oVERarching point that you might wish to
consider, Art: in an era when spelling was not standardized and a name
could be and was spelled in a half-dozen ways of varying lengths, so
that one could find "Wilson" also spelled as "Willsonne," etc., it would
have been sheer folly to encode messages using equidistant letter
sequences in a text to be printed, since the alternative spellings and
adjustments made by typesetters would be virtually certain to destroy
the ELS. Indeed, in that era, one would have to be a lunatic or an
idiot to conceal messages using equidistant letter sequences into texts
to be deliVERED to a printer, and in this era one must be a lunatic or
an idiot to seek messages concealed by equidistant letter sequences in
Elizabethan era printed texts. But perhaps you are trying to qualify on
both counts, Art?
[Lunatic logorrhea snipped]
> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> > Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> > theatre and drama is limited.
in this case.
> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
> Art Neuendorffer
neufer
Feb 7, 2012, 11:19:57 PM2/7/12
to
>>> Are you attempting
>>> to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
>>> to make some point or are you merely mindlessly posting?
>> *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* was one of the best Poets for Comedy among the
>> Greeks and: "so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us be[E], Edward Earle
>> of Oxforde." Both Eupolis & Oxforde made fun of the powers to be.
>> Greeks and: "so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us be[E], Edward Earle
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> In any case, making fun of the powers that be -- or if you prefer,
> Art, the "powers to be [sic]" -- is a commonplace practice among comic
> writers; it is not confined either to Eupolis or to Oxford. In fact,
> not a *single one* of Oxford's comedies survives, so it simply is not
> known whether he ridiculed the "powers to be [sic]" or not
> -- you are engaging in wanton, unsupported speculation, Art.
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Huh? The circumstances of Oxford's death are not particularly
> "mysterious." While the exact cause of death may not be known
> with certainty, that's not an uncommon state of affairs
> for persons who died four centuries ago.
While the exact *author* may not be known with certainty,
>
> Huh? The circumstances of Oxford's death are not particularly
> "mysterious." While the exact cause of death may not be known
> with certainty, that's not an uncommon state of affairs
> for persons who died four centuries ago.
that's not an uncommon state of affairs
for persons who died four centuries ago.
--------------------------------------------------------------- -
for persons who died four centuries ago.
*rEVEREnD WARD* wrote in his diary:
"Shakespeare, Drayton, and Ben Jonson had a merry meeting, and it
seems
drank too hard; for SHAKESPEARE DiEd of a fEVER there contracted."
Harvey wrote in his _Foure Letters_ that he had heard
that "a famous author" [i.e., Greene] was sick
"of a surfeit of pickle herring and Rhenish wine..."
Nashe replied: "I and one of my fellows, Will MonOX (Hast thou
never heard of him and his great dagger?) were in company
with him a month before he died, at that fatal banquet of
Rhenish wine and pickled herring (if thou wilt needs have it so)"
-------------------------------------------------------------
Fulke Greville/Baron BROOKE - STABbed by servant, 1628.
Christopher Marlowe - STABbed by spy/lover, 1593.
Edward deVere - STABs a servant, 1567.
---------------------------------------------------------------
> neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A Comparative Discourse of our English Poets,
>> with the Greeke, Latine, and Italian Poets. Palladis Tamia.
>> Wits Treasury being the Second Part of Wits Common Wealth.
>
>> By Francis Meres Maister of Artes of both Universities.
>> Rev. Francis Meres {14428 letters}
>> .................................................
>> The best Poets for Comedy among the Greeks are these,
>> Menander, Aristophanes, *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* , Alexis Terius,
>> Nicostratus, Amipsias Atheniensis, Anaxedrides, Rhodius,
>> Aristonymus, Archippus Atheniensis and Callias Atheniensis;
>>
>> A Comparative Discourse of our English Poets,
>> with the Greeke, Latine, and Italian Poets. Palladis Tamia.
>> Wits Treasury being the Second Part of Wits Common Wealth.
>
>> By Francis Meres Maister of Artes of both Universities.
>> Rev. Francis Meres {14428 letters}
>> .................................................
>> The best Poets for Comedy among the Greeks are these,
>> Menander, Aristophanes, *EUPOLIS ATHENIENSIS* , Alexis Terius,
>> Nicostratus, Amipsias Atheniensis, Anaxedrides, Rhodius,
>> Aristonymus, Archippus Atheniensis and Callias Atheniensis;
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Why do you single out Eupolis when he is
> merely third in a list of nearly a dozen, Art?
Because he shows up again, Dave, as the "I" of "H(I)-RAM"
>
> Why do you single out Eupolis when he is
> merely third in a list of nearly a dozen, Art?
. [who was STABbed near his "I" like MAR-L(O)]:
> neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> and among
>> the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na[E]uius, Sext. Turpilius, Licinius
>> Imbrex, and Virgi[L]ius Romanus: so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us
>> be[E], Edward Earle of Oxforde, D{O}ctor Gager of Oxford[E], Maister
>> Rowley once a rar{E} Scholler of learned [P]embrooke Hall in
>> Cambrid{G}e, Maister Edwardes one of her Majesties Chappell, eloquent
>> and wittie John Lilly, {Lodge}, Gascoyne, *GREENE*, Shakespeare,
>> *Thomas Nash* , Thomas Heywood, Anthony Mundye our best plotter,
>> Chapman, Porter, *WILSON, HATHWAY* , and Henry Chettle.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> January 17, 1579 marriage of
>> . " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
>>
>> and among
>> the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na[E]uius, Sext. Turpilius, Licinius
>> Imbrex, and Virgi[L]ius Romanus: so the best fo{R} Comedy amongst us
>> be[E], Edward Earle of Oxforde, D{O}ctor Gager of Oxford[E], Maister
>> Rowley once a rar{E} Scholler of learned [P]embrooke Hall in
>> Cambrid{G}e, Maister Edwardes one of her Majesties Chappell, eloquent
>> and wittie John Lilly, {Lodge}, Gascoyne, *GREENE*, Shakespeare,
>> *Thomas Nash* , Thomas Heywood, Anthony Mundye our best plotter,
>> Chapman, Porter, *WILSON, HATHWAY* , and Henry Chettle.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> January 17, 1579 marriage of
>> . " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Huh? What on earth does this have to do
> with the above list of comedic writers, Art?
They are two of those comedic writers, Dave.
>
> Huh? What on earth does this have to do
> with the above list of comedic writers, Art?
(Don't you see the humor in it?)
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Are you *really* blithely unaware that "Hathaway"
> and "Wilson" are exceedingly common English surnames?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
January 17, 1579 marriage of
. " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
January 17, 1579 marriage of
. " *William WILLSONNE and Anne HATHAWAY* of Shotterye."
.
November 27, 1582 Wm Shaxpere & Anna Whateley of Temple Grafton
November 28, 1582 William Shagspere & Anne Hathwey of Stratford
.
- Stratford Church Register entries
-----------------------------------------------------------------
November 27, 1582 Wm Shaxpere & Anna Whateley of Temple Grafton
November 28, 1582 William Shagspere & Anne Hathwey of Stratford
.
- Stratford Church Register entries
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> and among the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na-
>
>> ________ <= 40 =>
>
>> [E] uiusSextTurpiliusLic i -n- iusImbrexandVirgi
>> [L] iusRomanussothebestf o {R} Comedyamongstusbe
>> [E]*EdwardEarleofOxforde* D {O} ctorGagerofOxford
>> [E] MaisterRowleyonceara r {E} Scholleroflearned
>> [P] embrookeHallinCambri d {G} e
>
>> {GEOR} -40
>>
>> and among the Latines, Plautus, Terence, Na-
>
>> ________ <= 40 =>
>
>> [E] uiusSextTurpiliusLic i -n- iusImbrexandVirgi
>> [L] iusRomanussothebestf o {R} Comedyamongstusbe
>> [E]*EdwardEarleofOxforde* D {O} ctorGagerofOxford
>> [E] MaisterRowleyonceara r {E} Scholleroflearned
>> [P] embrookeHallinCambri d {G} e
>
>> {GEOR} -40
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Both "GEOR" and "ROEG" are cretinous nonsense, Art.
It rather A. PEELEs to me, Dave.
>
> Both "GEOR" and "ROEG" are cretinous nonsense, Art.
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> HoweVER, you have not even begun to fathom the explosive
> secrets concealed in this text, Art. For example:
>
> euiussextturpil[I]u[S]liciniusimbrexandvirgil
> iusromanussothe[B]e[S]tforcomedyamongstusbeee
> dwardearleofoxf[O]r[D]edoctorgagerofoxfordema
> isterrowleyonce[A]r[A]rescholleroflearnedpemb
> rookehallincamb[R]i[D]ge
>
> <= 41 =>
>
> There you have it, Art: "I, boar: S.'s Dad"!
> "S.", of course, is "Southampton."
Obviously Oxford is the father of either
"Shake-Speare", Sam the Sham, or Heinrich Himmler.
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Finally, there is an oVERarching point that you might wish to
> consider, Art: in an era when spelling was not standardized and a name
> could be and was spelled in a half-dozen ways of varying lengths, so
> that one could find "Wilson" also spelled as "Willsonne," etc., it would
> have been sheer folly to encode messages using equidistant letter
> sequences in a text to be printed, since the alternative spellings
> and adjustments made by typesetters would be virtually certain
> to destroy the ELS.
the ciphering job just that much easier.
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Indeed, in that era, one would have to be a lunatic or an
> idiot to conceal messages using equidistant letter sequences into texts
> to be deliVERED to a printer, and in this era one must be a lunatic or
> an idiot to seek messages concealed by equidistant letter sequences in
> Elizabethan era printed texts.
was concerned in the Elizabeth Gallup era.
HowEVER, I'm sure that the Rosicrucian printers
could easily deal with equidistant letter sequences.
>> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
>
>>> Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
>>> theatre and drama is limited.
> neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
>>
>> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
"David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
> Evidence, Art? Hint: "Attic drama" does not refer to the amateur
> theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
Not Meg, Jo, Beth, and Amy? Attica! Attica!
>
> Evidence, Art? Hint: "Attic drama" does not refer to the amateur
> theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
--
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
Feb 8, 2012, 3:12:02 PM2/8/12
to
In article
<4b0156a6-f40b-47c0...@e27g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,
[Lunatic logorrhea snipped]
we're discussing were Rosicrucians, Art?!
> >> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> >>> theatre and drama is limited.
> > neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
> "David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Evidence, Art? Hint: "Attic drama" does not refer to the amateur
> > theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
> Not Meg, Jo, Beth, and Amy?
You've gone off the rails again, Art; Oxford preferred little men.
<4b0156a6-f40b-47c0...@e27g2000vbu.googlegroups.com>,
[Lunatic logorrhea snipped]
> "David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Finally, there is an oVERarching point that you might wish to
> > consider, Art: in an era when spelling was not standardized and a name
> > could be and was spelled in a half-dozen ways of varying lengths, so
> > that one could find "Wilson" also spelled as "Willsonne," etc., it would
> > have been sheer folly to encode messages using equidistant letter
> > sequences in a text to be printed, since the alternative spellings
> > and adjustments made by typesetters would be virtually certain
> > to destroy the ELS.
[...]
> >
> > Finally, there is an oVERarching point that you might wish to
> > consider, Art: in an era when spelling was not standardized and a name
> > could be and was spelled in a half-dozen ways of varying lengths, so
> > that one could find "Wilson" also spelled as "Willsonne," etc., it would
> > have been sheer folly to encode messages using equidistant letter
> > sequences in a text to be printed, since the alternative spellings
> > and adjustments made by typesetters would be virtually certain
> > to destroy the ELS.
> > Indeed, in that era, one would have to be a lunatic or an
> > idiot to conceal messages using equidistant letter sequences into texts
> > to be deliVERED to a printer, and in this era one must be a lunatic or
> > an idiot to seek messages concealed by equidistant letter sequences in
> > Elizabethan era printed texts.
> I might agree with you in so far as Baconian Binary Cipher
> was concerned in the Elizabeth Gallup era.
>
> HowEVER, I'm sure that the Rosicrucian printers
> could easily deal with equidistant letter sequences.
What makes you think (usual disclaimer) that any of the printers
> > idiot to conceal messages using equidistant letter sequences into texts
> > to be deliVERED to a printer, and in this era one must be a lunatic or
> > an idiot to seek messages concealed by equidistant letter sequences in
> > Elizabethan era printed texts.
> I might agree with you in so far as Baconian Binary Cipher
> was concerned in the Elizabeth Gallup era.
>
> HowEVER, I'm sure that the Rosicrucian printers
> could easily deal with equidistant letter sequences.
we're discussing were Rosicrucians, Art?!
> >> "Robin G." <doc...@proaxis.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Your understanding of Elizabethan/Jacobean
> >>> theatre and drama is limited.
> > neufer <acneu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> But my understanding of Greek theatre and comedy is improving.
> "David L. Webb" <david.l.w...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Evidence, Art? Hint: "Attic drama" does not refer to the amateur
> > theatricals that you may stage in the storage area above your house.
> Not Meg, Jo, Beth, and Amy?
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