A Vote for John Kerry Is a Vote for Those Who Hate America
Toby Petzold
thing he accomplished was to articulate better than he ever has
before, I believe, the rationale for the War for Iraq. For that is the
Second Great Transgression he committed against the Left (the First
being his "stolen" election). But if what he said last night does not
acquit his actions in the eyes of these haters and hypocrites, then
nothing will.
The President put the case thusly: Iraq will be free and democratic
---and this will begin a transformation of the Arab and Muslim world
that will make us safer. The world cannot abide a culture of tyranny
and extremist dogma such as what has seized Islam. And, so, those
people will either embrace liberty or they will be destroyed.
If those were not his actual words, they are, nonetheless, manifest in
his actions.
The anti-war Left has sickened itself on paranoia and hatred, never
stopping to consider that what President Bush is fighting for is the
liberation of hundreds of millions of people. Nor do the anti-war
Bush-haters recognize that this is a liberal value he seeks for those
whom these same Leftists are supposed to be concerned for, but are
not. Instead, these violence-minded "pacifists" attempt to slur and
vilify our military with the crimes and derelictions of a few. Sound
familiar? It should. We are faced with large segments of our society
that are recapitulating the mistrust and demonization once practiced
by the man they now wish to see replace our President. It is a great
shame and, with some, even worse than that.
I am proud of George W. Bush and I believe he is a great President in
an important time. I trust him and am confident in his resolve.
His defeat would be a huge blow to our country's security. But his
victory will be a triumph against the enemies of Civilization.
If you believe as I do, stand with him and work to defeat our enemies,
both foreign and domestic.
Toby Petzold
http://www.neognostikos.net/blog
John W. Kennedy
> I am proud of George W. Bush and I believe he is a great President in
> an important time. I trust him and am confident in his resolve.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
Anyone who admires an Elizabethan wastrel who deserted his post in
wartime would naturally admire a modern imitator.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have
always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
Tom Veal
PLACE FOR POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS ARGUMENTS. Both George W. Bush and
John F. Kerry are (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
Neither has, to my knowledge, addressed any issues in Shakespearean
studies. Both are as irrelevant to the interests of HLAS as Groucho
Marx or Albert Einstein.
Neogno...@hotmail.com (Toby Petzold) wrote in message news:<ad8b29ae.04090...@posting.google.com>...
<snipped>
Buffalo
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:c87247a2.04090...@posting.google.com...
>Both George W. Bush and
> John F. Kerry are (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
> Neither has, to my knowledge, addressed any issues in Shakespearean
> studies.
Ma fellow Stratforjuns,
The fight against the the Axis of E.Vere goes on. Even as I speak, our tanks
are forming a ring of steel around that "city of dreaming spires", with its
unelected "Earl" and his fundamentalist henchmen, like Ayatollah Stritmatter
and Chemical Kosinsky, whose ruthless determination to overthrow not only
the Stratman, but everything we hold dear.... (continued p. 43)
Buffalo
LynnE
"Buffalo" <none...@here.com> wrote in message
news:chad44$54e$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
That's Chemical KosiTsky, if you don't mind...
L.
>
>
> Buffalo
>
>
>
>
>
Buffalo
"LynnE" <lynnek...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9n3_c.27142$7i2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
It's still better than my first effort, which was "Kosinksy". It's late
Friday night where I am, and the Merlot is mellow. Sorry, Garry. Gary.
Buffalo
Buffalo
Greg Reynolds
Take it outside.
--Greg Reynolds
(Bush is going down for his ineptitude, his dishonesty,
his bullyism, his lack of vision, his habit of whoring for
the extreme radical right wing, and for his plunging
our country into unprecedented debt. This is not a
shoot-em-up western, it is a tiny planet. Your trigger-
happy hero is a disgrace to the world, the nation,
the Dixie Chicks, and me. Enjoy his final days, Toby.
If Ashcroft had four more years to undo our liberties,
and Rumsfeld had four more years to provoke the
world, and Rice had four more years to provide bad
intelligence, and Cheney had four more years to load
Halliburton tankers with our tax money, then we would
not even recognize the free world. It took Clinton eight
years to undo the first Bush tragedy. Now it will take
Kerry eight more to repair the damage of the drug plan,
the tax cut, the seizure of our civil liberties, and the
illegal attack on a sovereign nation. It is in your best
interest to hide your gullibility, Toby, and to not broadcast
that you are a disciple of a "major league asshole"1
"bigtime."2.)
1. words of George W Bush
2 word of Dick Cheney
LynnE
"Greg Reynolds" <eve...@core.com> wrote in message
news:4138F523...@core.com...
We agree for once, Greg, except maybe about the "final days." Time's new
poll puts Bush eleven points ahead. Scary.
Lynne
>
Toby Petzold
> I don't think Petzold has ever posted anything that was relevant
> to Shakespeare.
Still nuzzling Don Foster's nutsack, Jim? Time well spent, I'm sure.
Toby Petzold
Elizabeth Weir
> Anyone who admires an Elizabethan wastrel who deserted his post in
> wartime would naturally admire a modern imitator.
In defense of Oxford, he wasn't a coward, he was
a Roman Catholic in fear of Pius V's bull Regnans
In Excelsis which put an anthema on the soul of any
English Catholic who 'defended the heretical Queen
in war.'
Despite the fact that Oxford was exceptionally small
he was renown for street fighting. As one of his
biographers stated 'we'll never know how many men
Oxford killed.'
It's also on record that Oxford distinguished himself
on the field in the Border Wars.
In terms of his flight from Tilbury I would call Oxford a
'conscientious objector,' not a deserter.
A circumstantial case can be made that the Stratford
tradesman ducked the draft for the same reason.
The timing of his flight to London in the year of the
Armada has to be more than coincidental especially
since the Puritan fanatic and Arden family nemesis
Sir Thomas Lucy had the authority to conscript locals
found guilty of petty crimes such as rabbit poaching.
The Strat version is that the would be playwright found
his way to London to write for the theatre but a more plausible
theory is that the young tradesman from ultra Catholic
Warwickshire either had to flee Stratford and lose himself in
London or risk his soul to fight against the Pope's army.
I think he ran.
Cordially,
Elizabeth
Ken Kaplan
entirely new perspective. But its true, wrong forum, Toby.
BTW, if you believe the "liberation" nonsense, then you've just
admitted you were duped. The real neocon reason for the war was a
perverse imperialistic desire for hedgeonomy and power in the region.
Read "The Empire Backfires" by Jonathan Schell in the Nation. (search
archives). Since the true reason couldn't be admitted, the ruse of
WMD's was chosen. Bush admitted this pretty blatently in his speech. I
was amazed at how everyone missed it.
BTW again. In case you missed it Toby, amidst the Swift Boat smear (
such a gallant move from the prez and his buddies), the news the war
was lost was missed. Game over. The entire Suni triangle is coming
under the rule of Islamic fundamemtalists. Read the leads story in
last weeks Times. Where is "democracy" and "liberation" now? Flushed
down the toilet.
Iraq is a humiliation and a disaster. Bush has set us back a decade to
a generation.
Ken Kaplan
Greg Reynolds <eve...@core.com> wrote in message news:<4138F523...@core.com>...
biancas842001
The set of facts put up by Alan Nelson in his "position paper"
suggests that the 17th Earl may have been following in the footsteps
of his father, in running around the country trying to do what the
authorities had just told him he couldn't. It's not clear from what I
can see in that paper, whether the De Veres disobeyed the monarch
because they were obeying the Pope, or whether they were just doing
their own thing.
----
Bianca Steele
biancas842001
> By God I agree with Reynolds. Amazing how shifting context creates
> entirely new perspective. But its true, wrong forum, Toby.
>
> BTW, if you believe the "liberation" nonsense, then you've just
> admitted you were duped. The real neocon reason for the war was a
> perverse imperialistic desire for hedgeonomy and power in the region.
> Read "The Empire Backfires" by Jonathan Schell in the Nation. (search
> archives). Since the true reason couldn't be admitted, the ruse of
> WMD's was chosen. Bush admitted this pretty blatently in his speech. I
> was amazed at how everyone missed it.
Sorry, I rarely read The Nation and I'm not a huge fan of Schell's. I
suppose if I were more naive, I might think this made me a Republican.
>
> BTW again. In case you missed it Toby, amidst the Swift Boat smear (
> such a gallant move from the prez and his buddies), the news the war
> was lost was missed. Game over. The entire Suni triangle is coming
> under the rule of Islamic fundamemtalists. Read the leads story in
> last weeks Times. Where is "democracy" and "liberation" now? Flushed
> down the toilet.
Talk about smears -- on Capital Gang last week, Kate O'Beirne made up
out of whole cloth the explanation that Kerry's "disputed" wound had
been self-inflicted. You're a historian, Ken -- if you've read the
published accounts, would the possibility of a self-inflicted wound
have suggested itself to you from those accounts?
----
Bianca Steele
P.S. And there's no such thing as a "neocon" -- only anti-semites use
that word [snort].
Roundtable
and so I won't help this thread/NG any by saying that after
SOBBING over live media images of those poor, poor
people in Beslan/Russia locked in the school (death toll
now up to 394) and those little, little children who will be
traumatized for years, I was confronted with Bush USING
the tragic event to boost his "we must fight terrorism"
blabla, and thought - that man has no decency. Is he
really a Strat, Mr. Tom Veal?
Roundtable
http://roundtable.iwarp.com
http://villakreuzbuch.s5.com
LynnE
"Roundtable" <lancelo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd6ab3a4.04090...@posting.google.com...
> Actually, this truly is the wrong forum for political debates,
> and so I won't help this thread/NG any by saying that after
> SOBBING over live media images of those poor, poor
> people in Beslan/Russia locked in the school (death toll
> now up to 394) and those little, little children who will be
> traumatized for years, I was confronted with Bush USING
> the tragic event to boost his "we must fight terrorism"
> blabla, and thought - that man has no decency. Is he
> really a Strat, Mr. Tom Veal?
Roundtable,
I'm beginning to get fed up with the insinuation that non-Stratfordians have
no decency, no empathy, and/or no political sense. Non-Stratfordians, just
like traditionalists, represent the full spectrum of political thought, and
have just as much "decency" or lack of it as anyone else.
If people are going to make political comments on this listserv, I do wish
they would separate those comments from jibes about authorship.
And by the way, I cried buckets over the horrors in Russia myself. I cannot
believe that these terrorists were so inhumane as to make small children
their target. What Bush did, while possibly deplorable (I didn't hear his
speech), was negligible compared to what these monsters achieved. And it is
ridiculous to suggest that the authorship question has anything to do with
Bush's statement or, by extension, to the bloodbath in Beslan.
Lynne
John W. Kennedy
> Actually, this truly is the wrong forum for political debates,
> and so I won't help this thread/NG any by saying that after
> SOBBING over live media images of those poor, poor
> people in Beslan/Russia locked in the school (death toll
> now up to 394) and those little, little children who will be
> traumatized for years, I was confronted with Bush USING
> the tragic event to boost his "we must fight terrorism"
> blabla, and thought - that man has no decency.
I don't like Bush /at all/, but I am not sure he can be fairly condemned
on this point. Terrorism is real, and the fact that Bush is making a
pig's breakfast of fighting it does not alter the fact that it has to be
fought.
> Is he
> really a Strat, Mr. Tom Veal?
He was probably too drunk to come to English class the only day the
subject was raised.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams. "Bors to Elayne: On the King's Coins"
Toby Petzold
(Parenthetically, Greg, the anti-war Left is a danger to the survival
of Civilization. John Kerry must be defeated or all of those "seized"
civil liberties you're referring to won't mean a thing in American
cities lying in ruins.)
(Toby Petzold
HLAS Alumnus)
Ken Kaplan
This line of panic, paranoia, smear, hysteria, whatever you want to
call it is a ressurection by the Republican party of the "soft on
Communism" litany of the 50's and 60's pioneereed by Nixon et al and
brought to a high art in the 80's by Lee Atwater.
When asked why he was so vicious on his opponents, Nixon replied,
"Don't you understand, I had to win". At least he was honest about his
power needs. Which is all this crap is.
Do you really believe that A Kerry Presidency would have "enemies"
walking down our streets or "cities in ruin"? This was the anti Commie
line of yesteryear. It is ludicrous to believe that any reasonably
competent individual elected would not maintain a vigorous pursuit on
all fronts to deal with those committed to hurt us. Who or what do you
think Kerry is?
This is one of the most relentless and appalling smear, full of lies
campaigns I have ever seen and one of its saddest aspects is that it
is being believed.
The supreme irony is that the gang peddling this "action hero" posture
has already shown itself to be spectacularly incompetent. Who was it
who cavalierly bragged "bring it on" (not with his life you bet). What
happened after that, eh? Who dressed up in a flight suit and
ridiculously declared "Mission accomplished". Was "Mission
Accomplished". The war has been lost Toby, in case you missed it. Here
is an excerpt from a Paul Krugman column derived from a Times front
page story of two Sundays ago.
"Everyone wants to go to Baghdad; real men want to go to Tehran." That
was the attitude in Washington two years ago, when Ahmad Chalabi was
assuring everyone that Iraqis would greet us with flowers. More
recently, some of us had a different slogan: "Everyone worries about
Najaf; people who are really paying attention worry about Ramadi."...
"Last month a Knight-Ridder report suggested that U.S. forces were
effectively ceding many urban areas to insurgents. Last Sunday The
Times confirmed that while the world's attention was focused on Najaf,
western Iraq fell firmly under rebel control. (ISlamic
fundamentalists-Sunni style) Representatives of the U.S.-installed
government have been intimidated, assassinated or executed. (The story
was exttremely gruesome in its detail)....
For a long time, anyone suggesting analogies with Vietnam was
ridiculed. But Iraq optimists have, by my count, already declared
victory three times. First there was "Mission Accomplished" - followed
by an escalating insurgency. Then there was the capture of Saddam -
followed by April's bloody uprising. Finally there was the furtive
transfer of formal sovereignty to Ayad Allawi, with implausible claims
that this showed progress - a fantasy exploded by the guns of August.
Now, serious security analysts have begun to admit that the goal of a
democratic, pro-American Iraq has receded out of reach. Anthony
Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies - no
peacenik - writes that "there is little prospect for peace and
stability in Iraq before late 2005, if then."
Mr. Cordesman still thinks (or thought a few weeks ago) that the odds
of success in Iraq are "at least even," but by success he means the
creation of a government that "is almost certain to be more inclusive
of Ba'ath, hard-line religious, and divisive ethnic/sectarian
movements than the West would like." And just in case, he urges the
U.S. to prepare "a contingency plan for failure."
Fred Kaplan of Slate is even more pessimistic. "This is a terribly
grim thing to say," he wrote recently, "but there might be no solution
to the problem of Iraq" - no way to produce "a stable, secure, let
alone democratic regime. And there's no way we can just pull out
without plunging the country, the region, and possibly beyond into
still deeper disaster." Deeper disaster? Yes: people who worried about
Ramadi are now worrying about Pakistan....
Here's another thought. President Bush says that the troubles in Iraq
are the result of unanticipated "catastrophic success." But that
catastrophe was predicted by many experts. Mr. Cordesman says their
warnings were ignored because we have "the weakest and most
ineffective National Security Council in post-war American history,"
giving control to "a small group of neoconservative ideologues" who
"shaped a war without any realistic understanding or plans for shaping
a peace."
You're worried about Kerry? Get your feet on the ground. Bush has
created a disaster of unprecedented (well Vietnam comes close)
proportions.
What I cited is the tip of the iceburg. It amazes me how people are
psyching themselves into believing their own fantasies. Very sad.
Seven Marines died yesterday in Falluja. "Mission Accomplished?"
"Bring it on?"
P.S. Bianca Steel
"And there's no such thing as a "neocon" -- only anti-semites use
that word [snort]."
What in God's name are you talking about?
Ken Kaplan
Neogno...@hotmail.com (Toby Petzold) wrote in message news:<ad8b29ae.04090...@posting.google.com>...
Art Neuendorffer
> Both George W. Bush and John F. Kerry
> are (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
Isn't it mandatory for all Skull & Bones members to be Stratfordian?
Art N.
Art Neuendorffer
> The President did a beautiful job last night. And the most important
> thing he accomplished was to articulate better than he ever has
> before, I believe, the rationale for the War for Iraq.
Could he really have articulated any worse than he had before?
Art N
biancas842001
<75f2d918.04090...@posting.google.com>, Ken Kaplan wrote:
[snip]
I'm not quite sure where you were going with that.
>
> P.S. Bianca Steel [sic]
That's "Steele," with an 'e' at the end -- like Remington Steele?
> "And there's no such thing as a "neocon" -- only anti-semites use
> that word [snort]."
> What in God's name are you talking about?
It seems you are unaware that many neoconservatives have objected to
the term "neoconservative." They don't see any difference between
themselves and other conservatives, and they feel that those labeled
"neoconservative" are being singled out because they are Jewish or of
Jewish descent. They feel that the term comes from people such as Pat
Buchanan who wish to point out the United States' putatively being in
the pocket of the Israel lobby. You can see Norman Podhoretz's recent
essay in _Commentary_ for an example (an exemplary exposition of the
neoconservative position, actually, by one of the two or three
foremost neoconservative intellectuals), if you can stomach page after
page of what Podhoretz calls "the Bush doctrine."
----
Bianca Steele
We're all a danger to the survival of civilization, when you come
right down to it.
>>
>> (Toby Petzold
>> HLAS Alumnus)
John W. Kennedy
> (Parenthetically, Greg, the anti-war Left is a danger to the survival
> of Civilization. John Kerry must be defeated or all of those "seized"
> civil liberties you're referring to won't mean a thing in American
> cities lying in ruins.)
So you're saying that only fascism is strong?
A lot of good Americans of my father's generation died to put an end to
people like you.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
lyra
> Roundtablewrote in message
> news:fd6ab3a4.04090...@posting.google.com...
> > Actually, this truly is the wrong forum for political debates,
> > and so I won't help this thread/NG any by saying that after
> > SOBBING over live media images of those poor, poor
> > people in Beslan/Russia locked in the school (death toll
> > now up to 394) and those little, little children who will be
> > traumatized for years, I was confronted with Bush USING
> > the tragic event to boost his "we must fight terrorism"
> > blabla, and thought - that man has no decency. Is he
> > really a Strat, Mr. Tom Veal?
>
> Roundtable,
>
> I'm beginning to get fed up with the insinuation that non-Stratfordians have
> no decency, no empathy, and/or no political sense.
I can only agree.
.....................................................................
THE SALVE REGINA
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and
our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do
we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears! Turn
then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us; and
after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus! O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Roman Breviary
http://www.catholicculture.org/lit/Prayers/view.cfm?id=758
(quote, excerpts)
Prayers, incense and tears
By Daniel Mann
BBC News Online
The Russian Orthodox Church has become a source of comfort
As the small Russian town of Beslan began the painful task of burying
those who died in the school siege, many were also gathering in west
London for a special service at the Russian Orthodox Church.
The Cathedral of the Dormition and All Saints in Knightsbridge has
held many services for the numerous tragedies which have befallen
Russia over the years.
But Father John, the cathedral's dean since 1979, told BBC News Online
that although Sunday's service was very moving, many still felt
"hopeless" about Beslan's tragedy and "how people can do such things".
It is a view shared by one of his parishioners, Ivan Leonidov.
"I don't think there have been any parallels in Russian history. It
can be appropriately called Russia's September 11. With so many
children involved, with so many hundreds of innocent lives lost, it
makes the grief enormous."
Inside the cathedral, around 300 people gathered to hear the special
20-minute service which followed the usual Sunday prayers.
Under a hazy cloud of aromatic incense, they lit dozens of candles for
the siege's many victims.
As the clergy begun reading from their prayer books, the worshippers
moved to the centre of the cathedral.
Men, women and children stood in solemn prayer and making the sign of
the cross, with many faces lit by an orange glow from the candles they
clasped.
Some elderly women, heads covered, stood calm and dignified as the
choir sung hymns and the liturgy was read, while others struggled to
wipe away their tears as they crossed themselves.
After the service Father John said his faith had been tested with so
many people feeling such despair, shock and grief over the deaths of
so many - particularly Russian children.
"I suppose as a priest I'm supposed to say forgive and that's what
Christ said, of course. But it's a fact that in Russia many families
have only one child, so it's quite likely that for many of these
families it was the only child.
Ivan Leonidov said: "There are no words to express the sorrow and
today's service was marked by the enormous sense of tragedy.
"When so many lives have been lost it is beyond comprehension, but I
think maybe the service will help some people to overcome their grief
and anger."
Before leaving the cathedral, some of the congregation kissed
religious icons and said a short prayer, while many put money inside
the donations box.
One young lady bowed and made the sign of the cross as she left the
cathedral, then burst into tears and fell into the arms of another
woman.
After holding one another tightly for a few minutes, they slowly
walked away from the cathedral.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3629448.stm
..............................................................................
Pope returns icon to Russia
The bejewelled icon is a powerful symbol for Russian believers
Pope John Paul II has said he hopes the return of a precious Russian
icon to the Russian Orthodox Church will lead to reconciliation and
understanding.
The icon of the virgin of Kazan was symbolically handed over by the
Pope to a senior cardinal during a rare Vatican performance of the
liturgy in Russian.
Cardinal Walter Kasper will carry the icon to Moscow where he will
present it to Patriarch Alexy II on Saturday.
The icon is a copy of one of the most venerated religious images in
Russia.
During the ceremony, the Pope said he hoped the "ancient image of the
Mother of the Lord" would speak to Patriarch Alexy II and the Orthodox
Church of the Pope's affection for them.
"May it speak to him of the desire and the firm will of the Pope of
Rome to progress together with them on the path of mutual
understanding and reconciliation, to speed the day of full unity of
the faithful, for which the Lord Jesus ardently prayed," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3598274.stm
Pope returns rare icon to Russia
The icon's history in Russia is shrouded in mystery
A Vatican cardinal has handed a precious icon back to the Russian
Orthodox Church in Moscow as a personal gift from Pope John Paul II.
The image is an 18th-Century copy of one of Russia's most sacred
images, the Virgin of Kazan, and was bought in the West by Roman
Catholics in 1970.
Patriarch Alexy, the head of the Russian Church, thanked the Pope, who
views the gift as a goodwill gesture.
The icon was handed over by Catholic Cardinal Walter Kasper in a
ceremony at the Kremlin's Cathedral of the Assumption after a service
to mark the Orthodox Feast of the Assumption.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3605996.stm
..........................................................
Ken Kaplan
back as I remember Barbara Ehrenreich using it in "Fear of Falling"
(written in the 80's), it represents the "new movement" of
conservatives post 70's who built up think tanks and began a
coordinated, "intellectual" assault on the "liberal elite" they
perceived mainly based on the East Coast. (talk about anti semetic
implications of the " East Coast Jewish Media Elite".)
I don't know if Bill Kristol is Jewish, leader of Weekly Standard, but
to the most usage it represents a "conservative" segment that has a
specific agenda that is an outgrowth or "new" expression of ideology.
I really doubt that Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Karl Rove and Condi
Rice are Jewish but they fall within the rubrick and support of the
neocon agenda internationally.
Furthermore, if neocon truly was derived and used today specifically
as an anti semetic thrust, then I suspect people in the press who are
sensitive to these things would not use it. I have never seen this
issue brought up except by you and the sources you cite. This is not
to say there may not be some truth to your position.
In the manner I have seen it used, it has had absolutely no anti
semetic context whatsoever. It is soley a description of an
ideologically oriented group. That some are Jewish is cooincidental. I
have never seen that aspect discussed.
Ken Kaplan
bianca...@yahoo.com (biancas842001) wrote in message news:<456bd92f.04090...@posting.google.com>...
Brad Filippone
: Roundtable wrote:
: > Actually, this truly is the wrong forum for political debates,
: > and so I won't help this thread/NG any by saying that after
: > SOBBING over live media images of those poor, poor
: > people in Beslan/Russia locked in the school (death toll
: > now up to 394) and those little, little children who will be
: > traumatized for years, I was confronted with Bush USING
: > the tragic event to boost his "we must fight terrorism"
: > blabla, and thought - that man has no decency.
: I don't like Bush /at all/, but I am not sure he can be fairly condemned
: on this point. Terrorism is real, and the fact that Bush is making a
: pig's breakfast of fighting it does not alter the fact that it has to be
: fought.
The irony that he doens't see is that he's fighting terrorism WITH
terrorism.
Brad
biancas842001
<75f2d918.04090...@posting.google.com>, Ken Kaplan wrote:
> Well I suppose that is one perspective. As it has been used as far
> back as I remember Barbara Ehrenreich using it in "Fear of Falling"
> (written in the 80's), it represents the "new movement" of
> conservatives post 70's who built up think tanks and began a
> coordinated, "intellectual" assault on the "liberal elite" they
> perceived mainly based on the East Coast. (talk about anti semetic
> implications of the " East Coast Jewish Media Elite".)
>
> I don't know if Bill Kristol is Jewish, leader of Weekly Standard, but
> to the most usage it represents a "conservative" segment that has a
> specific agenda that is an outgrowth or "new" expression of ideology.
> I really doubt that Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Karl Rove and Condi
> Rice are Jewish but they fall within the rubrick and support of the
> neocon agenda internationally.
I consider Ehrenreich a biased reporter, but it's likely she was
paying attention at the time. (I wasn't -- I was in middle school.)
It's possible there is a disconnect between neoconservatism, perceived
as the intellectual position of Irving Kristol (Bill's father) and
friends, and neoconservatism, perceived as the political position of
the Weekly Standard, Bill Kristol, and friends. I don't think I can
come up with a clear definition that includes both groups, unless it's
"political positions Irving Kristol wrote in support of," and even
that would only include the Weekly Standard, or any other publication
taken as a whole, in a pretty tangential way.
Then there are academics (the others are public intellectuals,
professional writers, or journalists) who either assert their
affinity, in their own fields, to what they call neoconservatism or
distinguish between themselves and neoconservatives, ranging from
Irving Kristol's generation on down. One group of such academics,
apparently, includes Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith at the State
Department, though I hadn't known Feith was Jewish before I'd read
Podhoretz's essay. Some people seem to think the war against Iraq was
Wolfowitz's idea, or something, that he must have misled the rest of
the Administration to get them to agree. Some people then go on to
say this is because the war in Iraq suited Israel's interests.
Wolfowitz et al. studied with professors who had themselves studied
with Leo Strauss, whom Irving Kristol also made reference to. Strauss
is supposed to be the big link between all neoconservatives.
>
> Furthermore, if neocon truly was derived and used today specifically
> as an anti semetic thrust, then I suspect people in the press who are
> sensitive to these things would not use it. I have never seen this
> issue brought up except by you and the sources you cite. This is not
> to say there may not be some truth to your position.
I'm puzzled by what you say here. It seems you have a fairly
superficial understanding of what neoconservatism is, as an
intellectual or political position, yet you seem to feel you can speak
authoritatively on who is and is not central to the neoconservative
movement, and on what has and has not been published recently on the
subject.
>
> In the manner I have seen it used, it has had absolutely no anti
> semetic context whatsoever. It is soley a description of an
> ideologically oriented group. That some are Jewish is cooincidental. I
> have never seen that aspect discussed.
I had not, until recently, heard the "neoconservative is a code word
for Jew" accusation, but I can without too much difficulty imagine
people who have been suggested as neoconservatives, over the past
twenty or thirty years, who might feel that way, to a degree.
----
Bianca Steele
Toby Petzold
> This line of panic, paranoia, smear, hysteria, whatever you want to
> call it is a ressurection by the Republican party of the "soft on
> Communism" litany of the 50's and 60's pioneereed by Nixon et al and
> brought to a high art in the 80's by Lee Atwater.
Some of the most committed anti-Communists in our history were
Democrats. But what are Democrats today? Isolationists. Paranoiacs who
elevate pieces of garbage like Michael Moore to iconic status. It's
embarrassing.
> When asked why he was so vicious on his opponents, Nixon replied,
> "Don't you understand, I had to win". At least he was honest about his
> power needs. Which is all this crap is.
Clinton said the same thing when faced with impeachment. Is it
supposed to be news that Presidents are ambitious and "into" power?
> Do you really believe that A Kerry Presidency would have "enemies"
> walking down our streets or "cities in ruin"?
Yes.
> This was the anti Commie
> line of yesteryear.
Well, we have the luxury now of dismissing that threat, don't we?
> It is ludicrous to believe that any reasonably
> competent individual elected would not maintain a vigorous pursuit on
> all fronts to deal with those committed to hurt us. Who or what do you
> think Kerry is?
Someone other than what you've described. He is a life-long saboteur
of American foreign policy (execept for those famous four months in
country).
> This is one of the most relentless and appalling smear, full of lies
> campaigns I have ever seen and one of its saddest aspects is that it
> is being believed.
Yes, and I wish the Democrats would stop it, too.
> The supreme irony is that the gang peddling this "action hero" posture
> has already shown itself to be spectacularly incompetent. Who was it
> who cavalierly bragged "bring it on" (not with his life you bet). What
> happened after that, eh? Who dressed up in a flight suit and
> ridiculously declared "Mission accomplished". Was "Mission
> Accomplished".
There's nothing wrong with showing a brave face to the world in a time
of danger and uncertainty. It's good for the morale of the troops and
it gives the public some confidence that we are being led by a strong
and decisive leader.
> The war has been lost Toby, in case you missed it.
All Leftists are defeatists and sell-outs. Thanks for making it
explicit.
> Here
> is an excerpt from a Paul Krugman column derived from a Times front
> page story of two Sundays ago.
You have to realize that quoting Krugman to me is a joke.
> "Everyone wants to go to Baghdad; real men want to go to Tehran." That
> was the attitude in Washington two years ago, when Ahmad Chalabi was
> assuring everyone that Iraqis would greet us with flowers. More
> recently, some of us had a different slogan: "Everyone worries about
> Najaf; people who are really paying attention worry about Ramadi."...
>
> "Last month a Knight-Ridder report suggested that U.S. forces were
> effectively ceding many urban areas to insurgents. Last Sunday The
> Times confirmed that while the world's attention was focused on Najaf,
> western Iraq fell firmly under rebel control. (ISlamic
> fundamentalists-Sunni style) Representatives of the U.S.-installed
> government have been intimidated, assassinated or executed. (The story
> was exttremely gruesome in its detail)....
>
> For a long time, anyone suggesting analogies with Vietnam was
> ridiculed. But Iraq optimists have, by my count, already declared
> victory three times. First there was "Mission Accomplished" - followed
> by an escalating insurgency. Then there was the capture of Saddam -
> followed by April's bloody uprising. Finally there was the furtive
> transfer of formal sovereignty to Ayad Allawi, with implausible claims
> that this showed progress - a fantasy exploded by the guns of August.
>
> Now, serious security analysts have begun to admit that the goal of a
> democratic, pro-American Iraq has receded out of reach. Anthony
> Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies - no
> peacenik - writes that "there is little prospect for peace and
> stability in Iraq before late 2005, if then."
Tony Cordesman is in the tank with Peter Jennings and the other
"internationalists" at ABC News. I don't care what they think.
Wars are very bloody and chaotic events. We don't go by some script
and we don't always win every aspect. The liberation of Iraq will take
a long time and the transformation of the Middle East longer still.
This isn't a mini-series; things don't get wrapped up at the end of
each installment.
> Mr. Cordesman still thinks (or thought a few weeks ago) that the odds
> of success in Iraq are "at least even," but by success he means the
> creation of a government that "is almost certain to be more inclusive
> of Ba'ath, hard-line religious, and divisive ethnic/sectarian
> movements than the West would like." And just in case, he urges the
> U.S. to prepare "a contingency plan for failure."
After Bush is re-elected, I'll bet we flatten Fallujah. That will
solve a lot of our problems. Now that we;ve let it alone for a while,
all of the detritus has washed up there, concentrating themselves in a
small area to be incinerated.
> Fred Kaplan of Slate is even more pessimistic. "This is a terribly
> grim thing to say," he wrote recently, "but there might be no solution
> to the problem of Iraq" - no way to produce "a stable, secure, let
> alone democratic regime. And there's no way we can just pull out
> without plunging the country, the region, and possibly beyond into
> still deeper disaster." Deeper disaster? Yes: people who worried about
> Ramadi are now worrying about Pakistan....
>
> Here's another thought. President Bush says that the troubles in Iraq
> are the result of unanticipated "catastrophic success." But that
> catastrophe was predicted by many experts. Mr. Cordesman says their
> warnings were ignored because we have "the weakest and most
> ineffective National Security Council in post-war American history,"
> giving control to "a small group of neoconservative ideologues" who
> "shaped a war without any realistic understanding or plans for shaping
> a peace."
Slate.com, Cordesman, Krugman, et al. What a winning line-up of shills
for the appeasenik crowd.
> You're worried about Kerry? Get your feet on the ground. Bush has
> created a disaster of unprecedented (well Vietnam comes close)
> proportions.
Gibberish. This President is doing a fine job of killing terrorists.
That's what I want from him.
> What I cited is the tip of the iceburg. It amazes me how people are
> psyching themselves into believing their own fantasies. Very sad.
>
> Seven Marines died yesterday in Falluja. "Mission Accomplished?"
> "Bring it on?"
Forget slogans. Just know that the fewer Muslim extremists, the
better.
> P.S. Bianca Steel
> "And there's no such thing as a "neocon" -- only anti-semites use
> that word [snort]."
> What in God's name are you talking about?
Neo-con is a term Jew-bashers use. How about reading something other
than The Nation, Ken?
> Ken Kaplan
Toby Petzold
http://www.neognostikos.net/blog
Ken Kaplan
electronic media or in print by every source including very fine
writers, politicians, and ambassadors- Joe Wilson immediately comes to
mind-has it stood as a code word for Jewish.
The genesis of the Iraq policy as a "neoconservative" agenda began
many years ago and was the product of a number of people, including
Bill Kristol, as its architects. I think the predominent desire was an
American imperialistic thrust, not a desire to promote some form of
Israeli poicy.
Ken
bianca...@yahoo.com (biancas842001) wrote in message news:<456bd92f.04090...@posting.google.com>...
biancas842001
<75f2d918.04090...@posting.google.com>, Ken Kaplan wrote:
> The genesis of the Iraq policy as a "neoconservative" agenda began
> many years ago and was the product of a number of people, including
> Bill Kristol, as its architects.
Yours seems to be the opinion of a large number of respectable
opinion-holders, from neocons themselves to Naderites to hardline
Republican supporters of Bush to ordinary Americans who think the
Republicans are right for America but feel Bush is embarrassing.
However, I don't think I've seen any of those who have written in
favor of this broad foreign-policy agenda actually stating outright
the level of apparent organization you suggest (with what is perhaps a
poor choice of words). Other than in foreign policy, neocons are
usually pro free market and not so pro-tradition as other
conservatives often are -- in other words, something to alienate
pretty much every facet of the Left, and not much to alienate the
Right except for a few extremists.
>I think the predominent desire was an
> American imperialistic thrust, not a desire to promote some form of
> Israeli poicy.
Since as you say the agenda is William Kristol's baby, I guess he's
the only one who can say what the "predominant desire" behind it is or
was? I find it doubtful but don't really give a damn. It seems to be
primarily a preoccupation of Naderites like Ehrenreich and Todd
Gitlin, except when it pops up in discussions of things like the "9/11
Report." Arthur Schlesinger's review article in the NYRB isn't bad (I
like his essay in _The Cycles of American History_ on the two visions
of America, as experiment and as "shining city on a hill").
----
Bianca Steele
Tom Veal
Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of Skull &
Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read J.
M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > Both George W. Bush and John F. Kerry
> > > are (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > Isn't it mandatory for all Skull & Bones members to be Stratfordian?
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of Skull &
> Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
> membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read J.
> M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
Webb would know for sure.
How well did you know George & John?
Art N.
Jim Paul
>
> > Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of Skull &
> > Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
> > membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read J.
> > M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
>
> Webb would know for sure.
>
> How well did you know George & John?
>
> Art N.
What about Paul and Ringo?
David L. Webb
Neogno...@hotmail.com (Toby Petzold) wrote:
> The President did a beautiful job last night. And the most important
> thing he accomplished was to articulate better than he ever has
That's certainly damning with faint praise! Indeed, the appearance
in the same sentence of the words "Bush" and "articulate" would be a
rather jarring incongruity. Here are a few samples of Bush at his
Churchillian best:
"What I am against is quotas. Quotas, they basically delineate based
upon whatever. However they delineate, quotas, I think, vulcanize
society."
[The above may be my personal favorite, but it's very hard to single out
just one.]
"They said, 'You know, this issue doesn't seem to resignate with the
people.' And I said, 'You know something? Whether it resignates or not
doesn't matter to me....'"
"The California crunch really is the result of not enough power to power
the power of generating plants."
"[Saddam Hussein] is a man who invaded two countries twice -- two
countries, one each time."
"They will not hold America blackmail."
"We cannot let terrorists and rogue nations hold this nation hostile or
hold our allies hostile."
"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of
Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to
terrorize himself."
"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe,
and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right."
"The thing that's important for me is to remember what's the most
important thing."
"For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings.
And folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable."
"More and more of our imports come from overseas."
"Hydrogen power will dramatically reduce greenhouse gas admissions."
"[Senator John McCain] has got to understand if he's going to have -- he
can't have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim
the low road."
"If affirmative action means what I just decribed, what I'm for, then
I'm for it."
"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's
some kind of federal program."
"Laura and I are pround to call John and Michelle Engler our friends. I
know you're proud to call him governor. What a good man the Englers
are."
"Matter of fact, there haven't been a morning that haven't gone by that I
haven't saw -- seen -- or read threats."
"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself but for
predecessors as well."
"The law I sign today directs new funds and new focus to the task of
collecting vital intelligence on terrorist threats and on weapons of
mass production."
[Referring in a campaign speech to Perseverance Month]: "This is
preservation month. I appreciate preservation. It's what you do when
you run for President. You gotta preserve."
"The reason I believe in a large tax cut because it's what I believe."
"And [the war on terror] is a struggle between good and it's a struggle
between evil."
"My trip to Asia begins here in Japan for an important reason. It
begins here because for a century and a half now America and Japan have
formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From
that alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific."
[One sincerely wonders whether Bush has ever heard of Pearl Harbor -- or
if so, if he has any notion in what century the attack transpired.]
Bush: "So what state is Wales in?"
Welsh singer Charlotte Church: "It's a separate country, next to
England."
Bush: "Oh...okay."
[Addressing the Iraqi people]: "You're free, and freedom is beautiful,
and...uh...you know, it'll take time to restore chaos and order."
"I made the decision to name the Justice Department building after Robert
Kennedy because he's deservant."
"I want to reduce our own nucular capacities to the level commiserate
with keeping peace."
"There is a lot of speculation and I guess there is going to continue to
be a lot of speculation until the speculation ends."
[Bush refusing to answer a reporter's question in Quebec:] "Neither in
French nor in English nor in Mexican."
[Certainly not in English.]
[...]
Buffalo
"David L. Webb" <david....@dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
news:david.l.webb-3F6B...@merrimack.dartmouth.edu...
<snipped great stuff from GWB>
O you hard hearts, you cruel men of Rome,
Knew you not Dan Quayle?
"I've tried to figure out where I am. I know I'm not the first because I
don't think I have the creativeness that Machiavelli talks about. If I go
back and reread it I might figure it out exactly where I put myself. I'm
somewhere between two and one. "
"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this
century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this
century."
Buffalo
Tom Veal
I've posted a few recollections of the undergraduate John Kerry at
http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/john_kerrys_yal.html.
Let me emphasize that none of this has any bearing on his fitness (or
unfitness) to be President of the United States.
George Bush I knew only very slightly, though we we had quite a few
friends and acquaintances in common. He was believed to know the name
of every member of the Class of 1968. I don't know whether that was
true, but I once heard Strom Thurmond say that a good memory for names
was the most essential qualification for political success.
Art Neuendorffer
> > > >
>>>>> Both George W. Bush and John F. Kerry are
>>>>> (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
> >
> > > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> >
>>>> Isn't it mandatory for all Skull & Bones members to be Stratfordian?
> >
> > "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> >
> > > Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of
> > > Skull & Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
> > > membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read
> > > J. M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > How well did you know George & John?
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> I've posted a few recollections of the undergraduate John Kerry at
> http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/john_kerrys_yal.html.
John Kerry made you his YPUy treasurer! (. . .I don't think so!)
> Let me emphasize that none of this has any bearing on his
> fitness (or unfitness) to be President of the United States.
If true it might!
> George Bush I knew only very slightly, though we we had quite a few
> friends and acquaintances in common. He was believed to know the name
> of every member of the Class of 1968. I don't know whether that was
> true, but I once heard Strom Thurmond say that a good memory for
> names was the most essential qualification for political success.
Speaking of old curmudgeons, did you attend a class by Harold Bloom?
Art N.
Tom Veal
> > > > > "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> > > > >
> >>>>> Both George W. Bush and John F. Kerry are
> >>>>> (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
>
> > > > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> >>>> Isn't it mandatory for all Skull & Bones members to be Stratfordian?
> > >
> > > "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> > >
> > > > Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of
> > > > Skull & Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
> > > > membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read
> > > > J. M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
>
> > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> > > How well did you know George & John?
>
> "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
>
> > I've posted a few recollections of the undergraduate John Kerry at
> > http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/john_kerrys_yal.html.
>
> John Kerry made you his YPUy treasurer! (. . .I don't think so!)
>
office.
> > Let me emphasize that none of this has any bearing on his
> > fitness (or unfitness) to be President of the United States.
>
> If true it might!
>
IMHO, what guys did as undergraduates nearly 40 years ago is (or ought
to be) covered by the Statute of Limitations.
> > George Bush I knew only very slightly, though we we had quite a few
> > friends and acquaintances in common. He was believed to know the name
> > of every member of the Class of 1968. I don't know whether that was
> > true, but I once heard Strom Thurmond say that a good memory for
> > names was the most essential qualification for political success.
>
> Speaking of old curmudgeons, did you attend a class by Harold Bloom?
>
No. I don't recall whether he was on the Yale faculty back then.
> Art N.
David L. Webb
"Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net>
(aneuendor...@comicass.nut) wrote:
> > > > > "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> > > > >
> >>>>> Both George W. Bush and John F. Kerry are
> >>>>> (or were, when I knew them at Yale) Stratfordians.
> > > > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > >
> >>>> Isn't it mandatory for all Skull & Bones members to be Stratfordian?
> > > "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> > >
> > > > Ordinary Yalies like me are not allowed to know the secrets of
> > > > Skull & Bones, but I think it highly likely that Stratfordianism is a
> > > > membership requirement. Any deviants are probably forced to read
> > > > J. M. Robertson's "The Baconian Heresy" nonstop until they submit.
> > "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> > > How well did you know George & John?
> "Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
>
> > I've posted a few recollections of the undergraduate John Kerry at
> > http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/john_kerrys_yal.html.
> John Kerry made you his YPUy treasurer! (. . .I don't think so!)
What's the matter with you, Art?! The word "Treasurer" does not
appear *anywhere* in Tom's reminiscences of Kerry at Yale. Tom was
*Historian*, not Treasurer.
> > Let me emphasize that none of this has any bearing on his
> > fitness (or unfitness) to be President of the United States.
> If true it might!
Your selective skepticism is hilarious, Art! You doubt what Tom says
about his own undergraduate days at Yale, yet you accept immediately and
with astonishing credulity the most ludicrous nonsense at nutcase web
sites.
> > George Bush I knew only very slightly, though we we had quite a few
> > friends and acquaintances in common. He was believed to know the name
> > of every member of the Class of 1968. I don't know whether that was
> > true, but I once heard Strom Thurmond say that a good memory for
> > names was the most essential qualification for political success.
> Speaking of old curmudgeons, did you attend a class by Harold Bloom?
Speaking of Bloomers, did you eVER write a post devoid of them, Art?
[...]
Art Neuendorffer
> >
> > > I've posted a few recollections of the undergraduate John Kerry at
> > >
http://stromata.typepad.com/stromata_blog/2004/08/john_kerrys_yal.html.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > John Kerry made you his YPUy treasurer! (. . .I don't think so!)
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> He appointed me Historian, not Treasurer.
That's why I didn't think so!
> > > Let me emphasize that none of this has any bearing on his
> > > fitness (or unfitness) to be President of the United States.
> >
> > If true it might!
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> IMHO, what guys did as undergraduates nearly 40 years ago is
> (or ought to be) covered by the Statute of Limitations.
And the Statue of Limitations.
> > > George Bush I knew only very slightly, though we we had quite a few
> > > friends and acquaintances in common. He was believed to know the name
> > > of every member of the Class of 1968. I don't know whether that was
> > > true, but I once heard Strom Thurmond say that a good memory for
> > > names was the most essential qualification for political success.
> "Art Neuendorffer" <aneuendor...@comcast.net> wrote
> > Speaking of old curmudgeons, did you attend a class by Harold Bloom?
"Tom Veal" <Tom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> No. I don't recall whether he was on the Yale faculty back then.
Coulda been: <<Harold Bloom ...gained his Ph.D at Yale University in 1955.
He has spent the majority of his academic career at Yale>>
-------------------------------------------------------
The Silent Treatment By Naomi Wolf
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/n_9932/
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/haroldbloom.html
<<In the late fall of 1983, professor Harold Bloom did something banal,
human, and destructive: He put his hand on a student's inner thigh-a student
whom he was tasked with teaching and grading. The student was me, a
20-year-old senior at Yale. Here is why I am telling this story now: I
began, nearly a year ago, to try-privately-to start a conversation with my
alma mater that would reassure me that steps had been taken in the ensuing
years to ensure that unwanted sexual advances of this sort weren't still
occurring. I expected Yale to be responsive. After nine months and many
calls and e-mails, I was shocked to conclude that the atmosphere of
collusion that had helped to keep me quiet twenty years ago was still
intact-as secretive as a Masonic lodge.
How did this all begin? For years now, Yale has been contacting me: Would I
come speak at a celebration of women at Yale? Would I be in a film about
Jewish graduates? Would I be interviewed for the alumni magazine?
I have usually declined, for a reason that I explain to my (mostly female)
college audiences: The institution is not accountable when it comes to the
equality of women. I explain that I was the object of an unwanted sexual
advance from a professor at Yale-and that his advances seemed to be part of
an open secret. I tell them that I had believed that many Yale
decision-makers had known about his relations with students, and nothing I
was aware of had happened to stop it.
Where is the professor now? they ask. He is still there, I explain: famous,
productive, revered. I describe what the transgression did to me-devastated
my sense of being valuable to Yale as a student, rather than as a pawn of
powerful men.>>
-------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer
David L. Webb
Tom...@ix.netcom.com (Tom Veal) wrote:
For a statue exhibiting some of Art's limitations, see
<http://www.groundling.com/hlas/profiles/aneuendorffer.php>.
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