How pronounce "Nausicaa"?

[Tom Frenkel]

Hi,

As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
"u" as a "v".

So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
this kind of thing. Thanks!

--Tom
Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu>

[Moiner]

In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.980514...@is8.nyu.edu>, Tom
Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu> wrote:

These things depend, oddly enough, on *when* you're reading. your waitress
friend is using a modern Greek pronunciation for an ancient word.

For Classical Greek, her name is pronounced "now see kah ah".
Modern Greek has shifted the pronunciation of upsilon (the "u")
from vowel to consonant, which is not completely odd, since the "U"
in Nausikaa is originally a consonant "w" sound, represented by a
letter we call digamma, which most dialects of Greek stopped using
before the Classical period.
The final two "A"s are separate sounds, and that is why the word
often is written with those two dots over the second "A", indicating
in English that the sounds are not blended.
The Japanese, to muddy the waters a teeny bit, have borrowed the
character's name for an animated story, "Nausica in the Valley of
the Winds" and spell the name na-u-shi-ka, using the syllabary
reserved for foreign words and telegrams.

Hope this helps!

--
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the Federal Communications Commission:

Chairman Reed Hundt: rhu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
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Commissioner Rachelle Chong: rch...@fcc.gov

[Robert Ramirez]

Tom Frenkel wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
> in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
> might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
> that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
> from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
> my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
> original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
> "u" as a "v".

Interesting. But did she pronounce coffee as "cawfee"?

> So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
> rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
> this kind of thing. Thanks!

Forget pronunciation; I just want to know what coffee shop you go to!

[Tom Frenkel]

> For Classical Greek, her name is pronounced "now see kah ah".

Just a quick follow-up please: Which syllable (if any) should receive a
special emphasis? Thanks! (and "Moiner", thanks for the full, informative
reply).

--Tom
Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu>

[Sander van Malssen]

Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu> writes:
> > For Classical Greek, her name is pronounced "now see kah ah".
>
> Just a quick follow-up please: Which syllable (if any) should receive
> a special emphasis? Thanks! (and "Moiner", thanks for the full,
> informative reply).

The proper Greek accentuation is on the penultimate syllable, though
you'll commonly find it pronounced with emphasis on the second syllable
(which is where it would be according to Latin accentuation rules).

Cheers,
Sander
--
Sander van Malssen -- s...@kozmix.ow.nl -- http://svm.www.cistron.nl/
* The 1-2-5 Page: http://svm.www.cistron.nl/music/ *

[Robert Stonehouse]

Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu> wrote:

>> For Classical Greek, her name is pronounced "now see kah ah".
>
>Just a quick follow-up please: Which syllable (if any) should receive a
>special emphasis? Thanks! (and "Moiner", thanks for the full, informative
>reply).

Stress the 'Nau'. It means 'knowledgeable in ships' (the masculine
form would be mote obvious) and so the beginning needs to sound like
the dative plural of 'naus'.
ew...@bcs.org.uk

[Gareth Driver]

Robert Stonehouse wrote:

> Stress the 'Nau'. It means 'knowledgeable in ships' (the masculine
> form would be mote obvious) and so the beginning needs to sound like
> the dative plural of 'naus'.
> ew...@bcs.org.uk

Sander van Malssen wrote:

> The proper Greek accentuation is on the penultimate syllable, though
> you'll commonly find it pronounced with emphasis on the second syllable
> (which is where it would be according to Latin accentuation rules).
>

I have to side with Sander on this one.By Greek rules of accentation, it would
be entirely impossible for the stress to fall on the first syllable, "nau".
Greek allows stress to fall only upon the last three syllables, and since the
last alpha in nausicaa is long, the stress must fall on eihter the penultimate
or the ultimate syllable.
As it happens, the stress falls on the penultimate, thus "nau see KAH ah".

[Sander van Malssen]

dri...@fas.harvard.edu writes:
>
> Sander van Malssen wrote:
>
> > The proper Greek accentuation is on the penultimate syllable, though
> > you'll commonly find it pronounced with emphasis on the second
> > syllable (which is where it would be according to Latin accentuation
> > rules).
>
> I have to side with Sander on this one.By Greek rules of accentation,
> it would be entirely impossible for the stress to fall on the first
> syllable, "nau". Greek allows stress to fall only upon the last three
> syllables, and since the last alpha in nausicaa is long, the stress
> must fall on eihter the penultimate or the ultimate syllable. As it
> happens, the stress falls on the penultimate, thus "nau see KAH ah".

And, since I had overlooked that that first alpha is long (damned school
edition of Homer I have here doesn't do macrons), I'll have to retract
my statement that the Latin pronounciation puts the emphasis on the
iota, since in that case it goes on the first alpha as well.

The basic rule of Greek accentuation is that Greek has a free accent,
which means that in theory it can go anywhere, with a bunch of rules
(such as those mentioned by Mr. Driver above) thrown in that go and
limit the possibilities a bit, but still it's something you simply have
to learn with each word.

Latin, on the other hand, has the emphasis on the penultimate syllable
if that penultimate syllable is long, else on the third last syllable.
The trick here is finding out whether a syllable is long or short. It's
long if it's a closed syllable (that is, in practice, when the vowel is
followed by two or more consonants), or if it's vowel is long; otherwise
it's short. And since most text editions are just as sloppy about
indicating long vowels in Latin as they are in Greek, you still end up
with a lot of words where you can't immediately deduce the proper
emphasis just from the spelling.

[na...@aol.com]

In article <Et81...@kozmix.ow.nl>, s...@kozmix.ow.nl wrote:

Don't happen to have Homer here with me, but I'm pretty sure that the
first alpha (the one in the penultimate syllable) is _short_ and so in
English the accepted pronunciation is (always hate trying to do phonetics
online) "now-SICK-a-ah" because the Latin pronunciation would shift the
accent back to the i. Homer commonly starts a line with "Nausikaa" (if I
recall correctly) and that requires both the iota and "first" alpha to be
short.

[Robert Stonehouse]

Gareth Driver <dri...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Robert Stonehouse wrote:
>> Stress the 'Nau'. It means 'knowledgeable in ships' (the masculine
>> form would be mote obvious) and so the beginning needs to sound like
>> the dative plural of 'naus'.
>> ew...@bcs.org.uk
>

> Sander van Malssen wrote:
>> The proper Greek accentuation is on the penultimate syllable, though
>> you'll commonly find it pronounced with emphasis on the second syllable
>> (which is where it would be according to Latin accentuation rules).
>>
>I have to side with Sander on this one.By Greek rules of accentation, it would
>be entirely impossible for the stress to fall on the first syllable, "nau".
>Greek allows stress to fall only upon the last three syllables, and since the
>last alpha in nausicaa is long, the stress must fall on eihter the penultimate
>or the ultimate syllable.
>As it happens, the stress falls on the penultimate, thus "nau see KAH ah".

I am very likely going to lose this one, but the odd point.

What language are we speaking? If we are speaking Greek, ancient
Greek, then there is no such thing as stress, only a pitch accent.
So Greek rules of accentuation are not relevant to considerations of
stress. What we are trying to find is an acceptable (not correct)
way to pronounce this awkward name in a stressed language.

In English there is another awkwardness; as well as the suggestion
of nausea (etymologically correct) if we stress the second syllable
we get SICK, etymologically wrong but comical. So I try to avoid
that.

The scansion is dah-dit-dit-dah (Morse style) and I am suggesting a
pronunciation that stresses the longs, so making it easier to
appreciate the metre.
ew...@bcs.org.uk

[Gareth Driver]

Robert Stonehouse wrote:

You are indeed right about pitch accents; thus, it would be "nau see /KAH ah" where
"/KAH" is a raised pitch, or acute accent.

You are also right that, if read in meter, the name would take the form
long-short-short-long.

[rwebb...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, 14 May 1998 10:00:00 UTC+3, Tom Frenkel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
> in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
> might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
> that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
> from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
> my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
> original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
> "u" as a "v".
>

> So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
> rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
> this kind of thing. Thanks!
>

> --Tom
> Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu>

We need to add at least one further complication to the learn-ed replies made below. She was, in fact, a foreigner to Greece. Homer's account makes it very clear that Odysseus was washed up on a distant foreign shore. So how can we possible know how the original name should be pronounced? (Or are we trying to establish how a later, Classical Greek audience might have pronounced it?). Surely, there are no other Ancient Greek words (names or otherwise) that end with 'aa'. (I'd like to know if there are). It seems likely that Nau(s) is to do with ships and ship-craft. Sika, of course in Greek means Fig (from the Persian word meaning 1,000 seeds). So it could be ships made out of Fig wood. (Extremely light, which may be why Odysseus says Alkino's ships were rudderless and the fastest in the Mediterranean world). The extra 'a' on the end of Nausikaa's name is surely likely to be a feminine ending... and may not have been pronounced. So I go for NAF-sika.

[John W Kennedy]

You are 19 years too late to join this conversation.


--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

[Ed Cryer]

19 years in hyperspace, and suddenly a reply!
Perhaps the Voyagers might hit results soon.

Merry Xmas.

Ed

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Dear John W. The NAME is still alive, possible outliving some of the contributors to this correspondence. But their contribution to the topic is nonetheless valid, and I'm sure that it is appreciated by those who wish to know more (even 19 years after the event). As a result of this discussion group, I have friends looking into the 'rudderless ship' issue. Perhaps you could post here the Greek work used for this as I only have a translation? Thank you in advance.
"Pearls before swine" -- Noah Arkiologos. "Anouncement just before boarding ship".

[John W Kennedy]

Per Wikipedia:
Nausicaa (/nɔːˈsɪkiə/;[1] Greek: Ναυσικάα or Ναυσικᾶ, pronounced
[na͜ʊsikâa]; also Nausicaä, Nausikaa).

It goes on to say:
Her name, in Greek, means "burner of ships" (ναῦς: ship; κάω: to burn).

The argument about the pronunciation being unknowable because it is in a
foreign language does not hold in an oral text not written down until
centuries later.

Upsilon is not pronounced /f/ in ancient Greek.

[Ed Cryer]

How about ναῦς ἱκᾰναι; competent ships?
Without oars or rudders they "flew over the sea".

Ed

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Thank you, JWK. Coming through Wiki the pronounciation could be misinformation. But thank you for the original Greek. (My desire is to know the Greek word Homer uses for 'rudderless').
I have the knowledge about the 'u' to 'f' transformation from ancient to modern Greek (as confirmed above). However, as a Greek resident, I ponder on a daily basis the shift over time of common words. We cannot say for sure how the 'u' sounded 2,500 years ago. The most likely senario, considering that 'au' and 'eu' are very common in modern Greek is that the 'u' in ancient Greek was a special sound terminating in an aspirate. This can be imitated by bringing the lips forward after the initial vowel and forcing the breath out through the upper teeth. It is then easy to understand how in modern Greek this becomes an 'f' sound. This lingual phenomenon is supported by words with a terminal 'u' in modern French, like 'vendu' and 'connu', which the French still pronounce with a tight aspirate (inimitable by most native english speakers).
I certainly cannot go along with the ancient 'u' pronounced as an english 'w'; as in 'how' and cow'. This is considered ugly by modern Greeks since it mis-shapens the face (the Greeks are generally extremely sensitive about the details of pronunciation).
Your last point, concerning the time lapse between oral Homer and recorded Homer is another issue entirely. And, for me is certainly misinformation. There never was any such thing as a Greek 'Dark Age'. It is the construct of the modern historian/archaeologist. If you wish to look into the arguments for this theory, then I recommend David Rohl's books on the problems of Egyptian chronology being wrong, and how it is used to mis-date the current archaeological finds in the aegean world. (His book 'The Lords of Avaris' deals with Homer in the final chapters).
Robert Webb
"Immortal gods I crave no pelf" -Shakespeare's 'Apemanthus' Grace' from Timon of Athens.

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Hello Ed. I presume that ἱκᾰναι derives from the verb which has come into modern Greek, 'kano' (to know or to be able to do)? Surely 'Competent ships' is more appealing than 'knowledgeable in ships'. I would have thought that the word ναῦς implies a knowledge of ships and shippery anyway?
Robert

[Ed Cryer]

οὐ γὰρ Φαιήκεσσι κυβερνητῆρες ἔασιν,
οὐδέ τι πηδάλι᾽ ἔστι, τά τ᾽ ἄλλαι νῆες ἔχουσιν:
ἀλλ᾽ αὐταὶ ἴσασι νοήματα καὶ φρένας ἀνδρῶν,
(Odyssey 5.557)

(For the Phaeacians have no pilots, nor steering-oars such as other
ships have, but their ships of themselves understand the thoughts and
minds of men,)

πηδάλιον is the word used for "rudder".
ἀπήδαλον πλοῖον is used by Aristophanes for "rudderless boat" (alpha
privative + πηδάλιον)

I've always been puzzled by the Latin word for ship, "navis" (pronounced
"nawis"). They obviously got that from Greek ναῦς, but whence the "v"?

Ed

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Dear Ed,
If my observations about the shift of the 'v' to 'f'(outlined above)are basically correct, then the 'v' sound for 'u' [upsilon] after 'a' or 'e' was still the perceived sound by foreigners at the time that the Romans would have learned it. This, surely would be early on (say, pre-3rd century BC, if not way before)since ships and shipping were the domain of the Greeks (and Phoenicians) prior to Roman take over. All shipping terms would be those recorded in the Greek language, A) since it was the lingua franca for the early Romans and B) the number of foreigners employed to operate the seas for trade and warfare would only understand the established terms for ship-work.
My knowledge of Latin is far inferior to my Greek, but the Romans appear to have taken hundreds of Greek words... and changed the suffix to suit their tongue. Thus, in proper names they would substitute (-os and -es) for -us. I therefore imagine that the Latin -is ending in 'navis' was made because they didn't like the consonantal cluster -vs in 'navs' and so made it into a two syllable word.

But thank you for typing in the Greek phrases. I shall consult with my knowledgeable friends about πηδάλι. and ἀπήδαλον πλοῖον. By the way, the word πηδάλι is still used in modern Greek; it is usually translated as the ship's wheel.
The inventor of the 'steering mechanism' in mythology is Nauplios (corrupted to Nauplius by the Romans!). Nauplios was, as you may know the father of Palamides, who is also credited with being an inventor. The eponymous town name, Nauplio(n), seems to be a fusion of 'naus' and 'plion'. This is according to researchers into the history of Nafplio(n) in the Peloponnese. The town of Nafplio is recorded in Egypt on a surviving statue base of Amenhotep III (i.e. c.200 years before the Trojan war, by any chronology). Nafplio is just 35k from my home here.
With best wishes,
Robert

[John W Kennedy]

Actually, “nau-” for “ship” is a common IE root.

[Ed Cryer]

Marvellous, man. How did you end up there? And with a very English name?

I've confused Nauplios with Naupactos at the western end of the
Corinthian Gulf. That place appears all over classical Greek writings;
and very understandably, given its strategic position.

Ed

[Will Parsons]

On Friday, 29 Dec 2017 3:50 AM -0500, Robert Alfred Webb wrote:
> On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:45:49 UTC+2, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>> On 12/26/17 12:37 PM, Robert Alfred Webb wrote:
>> > On Monday, 25 December 2017 02:52:55 UTC+2, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>> >> On 12/24/17 3:28 PM, rwebb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday, 14 May 1998 10:00:00 UTC+3, Tom Frenkel wrote:
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
>> >>>> in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
>> >>>> might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
>> >>>> that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
>> >>>> from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
>> >>>> my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
>> >>>> original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
>> >>>> "u" as a "v".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
>> >>>> rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
>> >>>> this kind of thing. Thanks!
>> >>>

>> >>> We need to add at least one further complication to the learn-ed replies made below. She was, in fact, a foreigner to Greece. Homer's account makes it very clear that Odysseus was washed up on a distant foreign shore. So how can we possible know how the original name should be pronounced? (Or are we trying to establish how a later, Classical Greek audience might have pronounced it?). Surely, there are no other Ancient Greek words (names or otherwise) that end with 'aa'. (I'd like to know if there are). It seems likely that Nau(s) is to do with ships and ship-craft. Sika, of course in Greek means Fig (from the Persian word meaning 1,000 seeds). So it could be ships made out of Fig wood. (Extremely light, which may be why Odysseus says Alkino's ships were rudderless and the fastest in the Mediterranean world). The extra 'a' on the end of Nausikaa's name is surely likely to be a feminine ending... and may not have been pronounced. So I go for NAF-sika.
>> >>
>> >> You are 19 years too late to join this conversation.
>> >

>> > Dear John W. The NAME is still alive, possible outliving some of the contributors to this correspondence. But their contribution to the topic is nonetheless valid, and I'm sure that it is appreciated by those who wish to know more (even 19 years after the event). As a result of this discussion group, I have friends looking into the 'rudderless ship' issue. Perhaps you could post here the Greek work used for this as I only have a translation? Thank you in advance.
>> > "Pearls before swine" -- Noah Arkiologos. "Anouncement just before boarding ship".
>>
>> Per Wikipedia:
>> Nausicaa (/nɔːˈsɪkiə/;[1] Greek: Ναυσικάα or Ναυσικᾶ, pronounced
>> [na͜ʊsikâa]; also Nausicaä, Nausikaa).
>>
>> It goes on to say:
>> Her name, in Greek, means "burner of ships" (ναῦς: ship; κάω: to burn).
>>
>> The argument about the pronunciation being unknowable because it is in a
>> foreign language does not hold in an oral text not written down until
>> centuries later.
>>
>> Upsilon is not pronounced /f/ in ancient Greek.
>

> Thank you, JWK. Coming through Wiki the pronounciation could be misinformation.

Not in this case.

> But thank you for the original Greek. (My desire is to know the
> Greek word Homer uses for 'rudderless'). I have the knowledge about
> the 'u' to 'f' transformation from ancient to modern Greek (as
> confirmed above). However, as a Greek resident, I ponder on a daily
> basis the shift over time of common words.

That's typical of many modern Greeks who seem to be reluctant that
ancient Greek pronunciation differed considerably from Modern Greek,
but *no-one* competent in Greek historical linguistics will agree that
ancient υ was pronounced like an [f] or [v].

> We cannot say for sure
> how the 'u' sounded 2,500 years ago.

Not perhaps "for sure", but we have a pretty good idea.

> The most likely senario, considering that 'au' and 'eu' are very
> common in modern Greek is that the 'u' in ancient Greek was a
> special sound terminating in an aspirate. This can be imitated by
> bringing the lips forward after the initial vowel and forcing the
> breath out through the upper teeth. It is then easy to understand
> how in modern Greek this becomes an 'f' sound. This lingual
> phenomenon is supported by words with a terminal 'u' in modern
> French, like 'vendu' and 'connu', which the French still pronounce
> with a tight aspirate (inimitable by most native english speakers).

That's a completely different phenomenon, unrelated to the Greek
development.

> I certainly cannot go along with the ancient 'u' pronounced as an
> english 'w'; as in 'how' and cow'.

That is precisely how it was sounded (in diphthongs) until at least
late Hellenistic times.

> This is considered ugly by modern Greeks since it mis-shapens
> the face (the Greeks are generally extremely sensitive about the
> details of pronunciation).

This is completely irrelevant to the historical development.

> Your last point, concerning the time lapse between oral Homer and
> recorded Homer is another issue entirely. And, for me is certainly
> misinformation.

Because you don't bother with real evidence or the consensus of modern
scholars?

> There never was any such thing as a Greek 'Dark
> Age'. It is the construct of the modern historian/archaeologist.

And of course they know nothing?

> If you wish to look into the arguments for this theory, then I
> recommend David Rohl's books on the problems of Egyptian chronology
> being wrong, and how it is used to mis-date the current
> archaeological finds in the aegean world. (His book 'The Lords of
> Avaris' deals with Homer in the final chapters).

Irrelevant to the current subject.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Friday, 29 Dec 2017 11:32 AM -0500, Robert Alfred Webb wrote:
> On Friday, 29 December 2017 14:01:36 UTC+2, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Robert Alfred Webb wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, 26 December 2017 21:45:49 UTC+2, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>> >> On 12/26/17 12:37 PM, Robert Alfred Webb wrote:
>> >>> On Monday, 25 December 2017 02:52:55 UTC+2, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>> >>>> On 12/24/17 3:28 PM, rwebb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>> On Thursday, 14 May 1998 10:00:00 UTC+3, Tom Frenkel wrote:
>> >>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
>> >>>>>> in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
>> >>>>>> might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
>> >>>>>> that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
>> >>>>>> from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
>> >>>>>> my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
>> >>>>>> original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
>> >>>>>> "u" as a "v".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
>> >>>>>> rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
>> >>>>>> this kind of thing. Thanks!
>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> We need to add at least one further complication to the learn-ed replies made below. She was, in fact, a foreigner to Greece. Homer's account makes it very clear that Odysseus was washed up on a distant foreign shore. So how can we possible know how the original name should be pronounced? (Or are we trying to establish how a later, Classical Greek audience might have pronounced it?). Surely, there are no other Ancient Greek words (names or otherwise) that end with 'aa'. (I'd like to know if there are). It seems likely that Nau(s) is to do with ships and ship-craft. Sika, of course in Greek means Fig (from the Persian word meaning 1,000 seeds). So it could be ships made out of Fig wood. (Extremely light, which may be why Odysseus says Alkino's ships were rudderless and the fastest in the Mediterranean world). The extra 'a' on the end of Nausikaa's name is surely likely to be a feminine ending... and may not have been pronounced. So I go for NAF-sika.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You are 19 years too late to join this conversation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>

>> >>> Dear John W. The NAME is still alive, possible outliving some of the contributors to this correspondence. But their contribution to the topic is nonetheless valid, and I'm sure that it is appreciated by those who wish to know more (even 19 years after the event). As a result of this discussion group, I have friends looking into the 'rudderless ship' issue. Perhaps you could post here the Greek work used for this as I only have a translation? Thank you in advance.
>> >>> "Pearls before swine" -- Noah Arkiologos. "Anouncement just before boarding ship".
>> >>
>> >> Per Wikipedia:
>> >> Nausicaa (/nɔːˈsɪkiə/;[1] Greek: Ναυσικάα or Ναυσικᾶ, pronounced
>> >> [na͜ʊsikâa]; also Nausicaä, Nausikaa).
>> >>
>> >> It goes on to say:
>> >> Her name, in Greek, means "burner of ships" (ναῦς: ship; κάω: to burn).
>> >>
>> >> The argument about the pronunciation being unknowable because it is in a
>> >> foreign language does not hold in an oral text not written down until
>> >> centuries later.
>> >>
>> >> Upsilon is not pronounced /f/ in ancient Greek.
>> >

>> > Thank you, JWK. Coming through Wiki the pronounciation could be misinformation. But thank you for the original Greek. (My desire is to know the Greek word Homer uses for 'rudderless').
>> > I have the knowledge about the 'u' to 'f' transformation from ancient to modern Greek (as confirmed above). However, as a Greek resident, I ponder on a daily basis the shift over time of common words. We cannot say for sure how the 'u' sounded 2,500 years ago. The most likely senario, considering that 'au' and 'eu' are very common in modern Greek is that the 'u' in ancient Greek was a special sound terminating in an aspirate. This can be imitated by bringing the lips forward after the initial vowel and forcing the breath out through the upper teeth. It is then easy to understand how in modern Greek this becomes an 'f' sound. This lingual phenomenon is supported by words with a terminal 'u' in modern French, like 'vendu' and 'connu', which the French still pronounce with a tight aspirate (inimitable by most native english speakers).
>> > I certainly cannot go along with the ancient 'u' pronounced as an english 'w'; as in 'how' and cow'. This is considered ugly by modern Greeks since it mis-shapens the face (the Greeks are generally extremely sensitive about the details of pronunciation).
>> > Your last point, concerning the time lapse between oral Homer and recorded Homer is another issue entirely. And, for me is certainly misinformation. There never was any such thing as a Greek 'Dark Age'. It is the construct of the modern historian/archaeologist. If you wish to look into the arguments for this theory, then I recommend David Rohl's books on the problems of Egyptian chronology being wrong, and how it is used to mis-date the current archaeological finds in the aegean world. (His book 'The Lords of Avaris' deals with Homer in the final chapters).
>> > Robert Webb
>> > "Immortal gods I crave no pelf" -Shakespeare's 'Apemanthus' Grace' from Timon of Athens.
>> >
>>
>> οὐ γὰρ Φαιήκεσσι κυβερνητῆρες ἔασιν,
>> οὐδέ τι πηδάλι᾽ ἔστι, τά τ᾽ ἄλλαι νῆες ἔχουσιν:
>> ἀλλ᾽ αὐταὶ ἴσασι νοήματα καὶ φρένας ἀνδρῶν,
>> (Odyssey 5.557)
>>
>> (For the Phaeacians have no pilots, nor steering-oars such as other
>> ships have, but their ships of themselves understand the thoughts and
>> minds of men,)
>>
>> πηδάλιον is the word used for "rudder".
>> ἀπήδαλον πλοῖον is used by Aristophanes for "rudderless boat" (alpha
>> privative + πηδάλιον)
>>
>> I've always been puzzled by the Latin word for ship, "navis" (pronounced
>> "nawis"). They obviously got that from Greek ναῦς, but whence the "v"?

> Dear Ed,

> If my observations about the shift of the 'v' to 'f'(outlined
> above)are basically correct,

They're not.

> then the 'v' sound for 'u' [upsilon]
> after 'a' or 'e' was still the perceived sound by foreigners at the
> time that the Romans would have learned it. This, surely would be
> early on (say, pre-3rd century BC, if not way before)since ships and
> shipping were the domain of the Greeks (and Phoenicians) prior to
> Roman take over. All shipping terms would be those recorded in the
> Greek language, A) since it was the lingua franca for the early
> Romans and B) the number of foreigners employed to operate the seas
> for trade and warfare would only understand the established terms
> for ship-work. My knowledge of Latin is far inferior to my Greek,
> but the Romans appear to have taken hundreds of Greek words... and
> changed the suffix to suit their tongue. Thus, in proper names they
> would substitute (-os and -es) for -us. I therefore imagine that the
> Latin -is ending in 'navis' was made because they didn't like the
> consonantal cluster -vs in 'navs' and so made it into a two syllable
> word.

As already pointed out, Latin _navis_ (pronounced [nawis]) is not a
borrowing, but a cognate to Greek ναῦς (proounced [naws]).

> But thank you for typing in the Greek phrases. I shall consult with my knowledgeable friends about πηδάλι. and ἀπήδαλον πλοῖον. By the way, the word πηδάλι is still used in modern Greek; it is usually translated as the ship's wheel.
> The inventor of the 'steering mechanism' in mythology is Nauplios (corrupted to Nauplius by the Romans!). Nauplios was, as you may know the father of Palamides, who is also credited with being an inventor. The eponymous town name, Nauplio(n), seems to be a fusion of 'naus' and 'plion'. This is according to researchers into the history of Nafplio(n) in the Peloponnese. The town of Nafplio is recorded in Egypt on a surviving statue base of Amenhotep III (i.e. c.200 years before the Trojan war, by any chronology). Nafplio is just 35k from my home here.
> With best wishes,
> Robert

--
Will

[vtheoc...@gmail.com]

Season's wishes!

There is a dictionary called Etymologicon Magnum, here is what it says for the entry Ναυσικάα: Κεκασμένη (ο εστι κεκοσμημένη) ταις ναυσί.

Κεκασμένη is a participle of καίνυμι or καίνω, which means renovate, make new, equip.

The dative case is commonly used in Ancient Greek names, here Ναυσί, is the plural dative case of ναυς.

Although not a classicist but also not a modern Greek pronunciation supporter I believe that the name ΝΑΥΣΙΚΑ must be read with its last vowel A (which is circumflexed) A long accentuated, E (not e) short. The form ΝΑΥΣΙΚΑΑ I believe is used by poetic licence in order to stress that A in ΝΑΥΣΙΚΑ should be read in two syllabes to fit the meter, which in this case I think must be read short A and long E.

As regards the αυ diphthong, when I want to read it as two syllabes (today's speech is not prosodiac so it does not apply to modern greek) I make it sound like aw, in any other case αβ or αφ as dictated by the modern greek grammar rules, however most Greeks pronounce β and φ with their upper teeth in contact with their low lip which I believe is wrong.

Cheers

Vasilis

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Hi Ed... its a long story... about my decision to live in Epidavros. I'm happy to talk about it; but not here! You can contact me on rwebb...@hotmail.com.
Re: Naupactos, that's an interesting place too... although it seems not so very old as an important place (not before the 1st Dorian Invasion according to local history, that's about 884BC according to Rohl's New Chronology). Its importance as a 'shipyard'in the Corinthian gulf probably pre-dates the rise in the population of Corinth (before Lechaion became its 'official' port). Anyway, it would be natural for the Dorians (led by Hyllus on the 1st Invasion, and having two generations to plan their subsequent attack in the 2nd Invasion; after the Trojan war) to attack the Peloponnese from Naupactus. Firstly because the Dorians as a tribe came from the north side of the Gulf, and secondly the land route through to Thebes (and also, relatively, Athens)is more direct. Anyway, I shall enjoy following this up... and when the weather improves, my wife and I shall take a day trip to Naupactus!
Robert

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Dear Will,
I rather knew I would (or perhaps was hoping to) stir up a hornet's nest (or several).
Thank you for those interpolations to my points.
However, my intent was not to engage in a contest of erudition. My intent has been to exchange ideas on the subject that come from a perspective which is mostly outside of academia. (Hopefully a refreshing one, even if nineteen years too late.)
I thought it was clear that my French reference was intended to help native english speakers relate to a nature of language which differs from their own. (Which is the very essence of the original question posed above).
Also, I have not suggested that pronunciation of 'ναῦς' was not as a diphthong. Only that the sound of the second vowel PROBABLY contained an aspirate element: why else would the modern Greeks arrive at a 'f' sound?
I'm tickled by your response concerning modern historians/archaeologists. Clearly currency will displace any fixed views about the past.
With regards,
Robert
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" (Da Vinci)

[Robert Alfred Webb]

See previous reply to Will Parsons

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Hi Vasilis,
Thank you for that info. As a native Greek, what do you think about the idea (outlined above) that the upsilon in diphthongs ('au' and 'eu') were sounded using some sort of aspirate (the exhaling of breath by bringing up and slightly forward the lower lip to make a similar sound as 'f' but WITHOUT the lip coming into contact with the upper teeth)?
Robert

[Ed Cryer]

The battle of Lepanto took place in the Patras area.
That was in 1571 AD.
I wonder just how long those shipyards prevailed.
I read about them in the Peloponnesian war, in Thucydides and Xenophon,
but they must have remained intact and preserved, as on the dividing
line between east and west.

I've seen that reconstructed trireme in Palaio Faliro; not so much a
ship as a prototype cruise missile. With its eyes painted on to ward off
the evil spirits.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

This, taken from Wikipedia, is a good iconic representation of the
vagaries of language transmission;
"The ancient name Naupaktos (Ναύπακτος) means "boatyard" (from ναύς naus
"ship" and πήγ- pêg- "to fix, fasten"). It was later Latinized as
Naupactus. By the late medieval period, the local name had been
corrupted to Nepahtos (Νέπαχτος), Epaktos or Epahtos (Έπακτος, Έπαχτος).
By the "Franks" (Latins) it was called Neopant, Nepant or Lepant. French
sources of the 14th century give Nepant or Neopant; Venetian sources
have Nepanto or Lepanto.[4]"

A tangled web.

Ed

[Rich Alderson]

Robert Alfred Webb <rwebb...@hotmail.com> writes:

> from a perspective which is mostly outside of academia. (Hopefully a
> refreshing one

Ah, fond, foolish hope.

Go away, troll. We've had much better sport from much better educated trolls
in the last 19 years.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Yes, Ed. This particular example involves several language 'imports': they don't count. It seems, to me, that the Greeks have maintained their tongue, with very little change for 3,000 years. (Compare this to 'English'!; 97% of Brits cannot understand a word of Beowulf, 60% find Chaucer very very difficult, and, may be 80% of the natives can follow Shakespeare (albeit with wrong meanings!).
Whereas the Greek language has survived despite immense invasions. Even if some ancient Greek words have been 'colloquialized' over the millennia, efforts seem to have been maintained to preserve the original language. (Has anybody written a book about this?). Ancient names are still preserved in modern Greek with the correct original stress pattern--- I find that remarkable. This is one reason why I'm interested in Nausikaa. If we should want to keep her name alive, then the modern Greek is relevant.
Best wishes, R

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Dear Rich Alderson. Thank you for your comment. That would explain the 19 years of silence on this posting. Thank you. Robert

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Hi Ed,
That's an interesting point. Certainly the name for ships, shipping and shipyards has survived more-or-less intact for 3,000 years.
But I fear that the ship port at Naupactos probably fell into disuse in the 1st century AD. This is because of the long term jealousy of Greece by the Romans. They completely wiped out Corinth in 146BC filling the city with refugee Albanians (if I'm correct). (Polybius reports that the disaster at Corinth was worse than that of Carthage). Anyway, with Corinth gone... and in particular the closing down of the Diolkos, there was no longer a short cut for either trade or warships to pass easily to the Levant. Thus closing off the Gulf of Corinth.
If your unfamiliar with the Diolkos, then there is a great and new (2017) 21-minute computer re-make (now in English) on YouTube, which answers a lot of questions about how the ancient Greeks transported ships across land for 6.3 kilometers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GtE0kfWDuU

Best wishes,
Robert

[Ed Cryer]

I don't know of any other language that has changed less over 2,500
years than Greek; no "living" one.
I've heard from educated Athenians that they can read Plato and
Aristotle in the original and understand it.

I learned classical Greek; no more, no less. And yet I can pick up a
newspaper and get the drift of the headlines; or, as actually happened a
few years ago, ride the train from Athens' airport to the city centre
and understand the posters on the walls of the stations we passed through.

I've been told that the pronunciation has changed quite a lot, and that
modern Greek owes more to demotic than Plato's higher language. But,
there again, I'm sure Plato could have read the New Testament and
understood every sentence in it.

Ed

[John W Kennedy]

>>>>>>>> with a tight aspirate (inimitable by most native english speakers)..

You are “Agamemnon” and I claim my five pounds.

[vtheoc...@gmail.com]

Hi Robert,
I believe the aristocracy of the time, the scholars, the philosophers as well as those who considered the quality of spoken language a measure of aristeia and wanted to get there, they aspirated as you describe. Later, as Christian democracy prevailed and non Greek populations settled, this behaviour as part of "hellenizein" was mocked and considered illegal by death penalty. The blending of vowels and consonants was thereafter gradually lost.
Vasilis

[Ed Cryer]

The one I remember best of all was a poster proclaiming Ο ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ ΤΟΥ
ΔΑΝΤΟΝ for a theatrical production.
I was riding into Athens, past Hymettus, and feeling quite amazed at the
size of the thing overshadowing Athens and yet the only mention of it I
read was under the topic of bees; it was famous for its honey produce.
So then, we pulled into a station, the poster hit my eyes, followed
nano-seconds later by the thought that if Thucydides had seen that he
would have had no idea at all that he was out of his time.
It's pure classical Greek; and written in capitals only, far more
contemporary for Plato and his aristocratic contemporaries.

Ed

[Will Parsons]

On Thursday, 4 Jan 2018 2:17 PM -0500, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:

...

> The one I remember best of all was a poster proclaiming Ο ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ ΤΟΥ
> ΔΑΝΤΟΝ for a theatrical production.

I'm surprised it wasn't Ο ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΝΤΑΝΤΟΝ.

--
Will

[Ed Cryer]

But it wasn't;
https://goo.gl/WMhyhf

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

This Wikipedia Greek page is typical of the ease I have with demotic;
https://goo.gl/NYdtkj

Το γράμμα δέλτα (κεφαλαίο Δ, πεζό δ) είναι το τέταρτο γράμμα του
ελληνικού αλφαβήτου.
Thucydides could have understood that; and this;
Προήλθε από το φοινικικό γράμμα ντάλεθ, που στα φοινικικά σήμαινε πόρτα.
Το γράμμα D,d του λατινικού αλφαβήτου προήλθε από το παρόμοιο γράφημα
του χαλκιδικού αλφαβήτου

(The letter delta (capital Δ, lower case δ) is the fourth letter of the
Greek alphabet..... It came from the Phoenician letter "ntaleth"
{daleth} which in Phoenician means "porta" (gate). The letter D, d of
the Latin alphabet came from the similar letter of the Chalcidian alphabet.)

OK, so Thucydides might have paused over είναι in the first sentence;
but not the meaning.
Similar things in the second; and, more problematically, πόρτα, which I
guess comes from Latin; giving the strange situation that I recognised
it immediately, whereas Thucydides probably wouldn't have.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Ο Θουκυδίδης του Ολόρου ο Αλιμούσιος (περ. 460 π.Χ. - περ. 399 π.Χ.)
ήταν αρχαίος Έλληνας ιστορικός, γνωστός για τη συγγραφή της Ιστορίας του
Πελοποννησιακού Πολέμου.
https://goo.gl/sQaZ6p

Quite astonishingly similar! I can read that almost fluently.

Ed

[Italo]

rwebb...@hotmail.com schreef:

> On Thursday, 14 May 1998 10:00:00 UTC+3, Tom Frenkel wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As a recent, enthusiastic reader of the _Odyssey_ in English (and a novice
> > in the field of the classics), I would like to pose just one question if I
> > might. How is the name "Nausicaa" supposed to be pronouced? It seems
> > that everyone I've asked has a different idea. The latest version came
> > from my waitress at a coffee shop (who noticed what I was reading and, to
> > my surprise of course, proceeded to recite Homer's opening lines in the
> > original Greek). When I asked her about "Nausicaa", she pronounced the
> > "u" as a "v".
> >
> > So now I'm thoroughly confused. But please, if someone gives a phonetic
> > rendition, could they clue me in on what the symbols mean? I am new to
> > this kind of thing. Thanks!
> >
> > --Tom
> > Tom Frenkel <ta...@is8.nyu.edu>
>
> We need to add at least one further complication to the learn-ed replies made below. She was, in fact, a foreigner to Greece.
> Homer's account makes it very clear that Odysseus was washed up on a distant foreign shore.

The distance between Scheria and Ithaca was a full day sailing. And as for their "foreignness", there is an analogy in the description of a cultivated olive grafted onto a wild olive stem in the Odyssey (5.47).

> So how can we possible know how the original name should be pronounced? (Or are we trying to establish how a later, Classical Greek audience might have pronounced it?).
> Surely, there are no other Ancient Greek words (names or otherwise) that end with 'aa'. (I'd like to know if there are).

Pasiphaa, Danaa..

> It seems likely that Nau(s) is to do with ships and ship-craft.

With a few exceptions all their names have to do with sailing. The root of "Nausikaa" is simply "nautika-". Both forms naus- and naut- appear in names of Phaeacians (Nausithoos, Nauteus).

> Sika, of course in Greek means Fig (from the Persian word meaning 1,000 seeds).

Homer's use of the word suka pre-dates contact with Persians, of course.

> So it could be ships made out of Fig wood. (Extremely light, which may be why Odysseus says Alkino's ships were rudderless and the fastest in the Mediterranean world).

Fig wood is useless. The description of their ships as if equipped with autopilot may simply mean they are so skilled in sailing that it appears effortless - compare certain Sea-people "who live on ships". Otherwise perhaps an animistic aspect - as with the eyes painted on the bow (already in old-kindom Egypt) or animal heads on the bow or stern.

> The extra 'a' on the end of Nausikaa's name is surely likely to be a feminine ending... and may not have been pronounced. So I go for NAF-sika.

--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

[Ed Cryer]

Italo wrote:
>

>> Surely, there are no other Ancient Greek words (names or otherwise) that end with 'aa'. (I'd like to know if there are).
>
> Pasiphaa, Danaa..
>

Aren't they rather Pasiphae and Danae?
Πασιφάη and Δανάη.

Ed

[Italo]

Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> schreef:

Pindar has -a

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0072%3Aentry%3D*pasifa%2Fa
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0072%3Aentry%3D*dana%2Fa

There must be plenty names ending in -e that have a variant with -a. For instance, from the above link, Pindar also has Ἀθάνα.
Can it be a Doric form?

[Will Parsons]

Yes. All these α vs η variations are Doric/Aeolic vs Attic/Ionic.

--
Will

[Ed Cryer]

https://goo.gl/phAEM8

Ed

[Robert Alfred Webb]

That's a great link, Ed. Thank you. My friend claims Spartan origin... so it was doubly interesting to view the YouTube video. Dialect: yes, well its clear that there are/have been many differences in pronounciaton of Greek. With my sceptical hat on, I don't see what's so important about the Spartans? They came late, and can only claim Dorian decent as their earliest record, i.e. post Trojan war (although they clearly link this to descent from Hercules, through Hyllus marrying the Dorian king's daughter).
But in Greek today, it is generally agree that words transcribed using 'Ts' as in Tsakonika, are transcriptions of imported words. Ts replacing 'Ch' or 'Dg': in other words an ugly, northern sound. (Northerners make ugly harsh sounds because the air is colder in the north!). So... they're NOT Greeks!
But I think that Odysseus' travels to a far-off land, where he met 'strange people' are not likely to be local (as suggested by an earlier commenter). Nor are these strangers likely to be of 'Doric' race.
The most likely location for Odysseus' landing is to be somewhere on the Levant coastline. And the reason for the king's daughter being 'Nausikaa' is because of the origin of the 'Nau' (Naf/Nav/Naow) element, which is NOT Greek, but Phoenician. (The 'Nau' is being affixed to a 'foreign suffix' to emphasise its foreignness to a Greek audience: the Phoenician's homeland originally being in Shinar (ancient Sumer), where the name for sailor is transliterated as 'Nau'. It makes sense. After all, the Phoenicians were reported as being the great masters of the sea, and they supplied the Egyptian pharoahs with wood from Lebanon to built barques and other wooden objects.
I hope all is well with you. Robert.

[Robert Alfred Webb]

Dear Italo,
Thanks for chipping in. I think that the Scheria reference can be discounted as erroneous on the grounds that a 'king' from a very small island can hardly have been raftwrecked on to a 'foreign land' which he could have more-or-less swum to from his homeland. The word 'syka' is certainly pre-Persian (in the historical sense), I just used that tribal identity group to relay that it was of near-eastern import. (Aeschylus, of course informs his 5th-century audience that Phrygia IS Persia). (Just as well that I didn't state 'Iranian'!). I'm not sure that Fig wood is useless... it was THE preferred wood for icon painting in the Byzantine period. But I agree that it is unlikely to have been used as a shipbuilding material. (But who knows?). Finally, I believe that the 'Pasiphaa' and 'Danaa' ideas have been addressed.
With best wishes, Robert

[Italo]

Robert Alfred Webb <rwebb...@hotmail.com> schreef:

<snip>

> Thanks for chipping in. I think that the Scheria reference can be discounted as erroneous on the grounds that a 'king' from a very small island can hardly have been raftwrecked on to a > 'foreign land' which he could have more-or-less swum to from his homeland.

The distance from the Sallentine peninsula to the Ionian isles can be sailed in 24 hours. But it seems less easy to sail the distance in the opposite direction, due to the prevailing wind here coming from the west/northwest (the so-called Iapyx wind).

This is the site I believe to be Scheria:
http://www.leccesette.it/dettaglio.asp?id_dett=43322&id_rub=137
http://www.salentoviaggi.it/public/localita/14.jpg
(with the stoned ship still moored in the harbour).

cf.
https://www.academia.edu/4025437/Guglielmino_2006_Roca_Vecchia_Lecce_New_Evidence_for_Aegean_Contacts
https://www.academia.edu/2030369/Roca_I._Le_fortificazioni_della_media_et%C3%A0_del_Bronzo._Strutture_contesti_materiali

> The word 'syka' is certainly pre-Persian (in the historical sense), I just used that tribal identity group to relay that it was of near-eastern import.

I don't quite understand. anyway figs are cultivated in Greece since at least the early neolithic..

[Italo]

Robert Alfred Webb <rwebb...@hotmail.com> schreef:

> But I think that Odysseus' travels to a far-off land, where he met 'strange people' are not likely to be local (as suggested by an earlier commenter).
> Nor are these strangers likely to be of 'Doric' race.

The nautical names are fantasy names, merely to emphazise on the Phaiakes being a sailing folk.

The heartland of the former Mycenaean world was speaking Dorian dialects after 1000 bc, including Ithaca, so if there are some Doric forms in there it wouldn't be surprising. That said, it doesn't need to be Doric whereever a women's name ends in -a, Mycenaean (linear-B) does that too.

> The most likely location for Odysseus' landing is to be somewhere on the Levant coastline.

It was Menelaus who went east to the Levant (and on to Egypt and Libya). Odysseus was on his way home, but a storm drove the ship past cape Malea and Kythera into the open sea.

> And the reason for the king's daughter being 'Nausikaa' is because of the origin of the 'Nau' (Naf/Nav/Naow) element, which is NOT Greek, but Phoenician. (The 'Nau' is being affixed to > a 'foreign suffix' to emphasise its foreignness to a Greek audience:
>the Phoenician's homeland originally being in Shinar (ancient Sumer),

That the Phoenicians arrived from the Red Sea (= also for the Persian Gulf) is mentioned right at the beginning in Herodotus.
But, further on, at 7.89, it appears that these 'Phoenicians' are specifically those that lived in Palaistine..
As such it probably refers to the same tale which was adopted in the book Exodus.

[ofonsba...@gmail.com]

Strangely enough, a site called howjsay.com, which I value terribly as a source of R.P. pronounces it Nausikai, as though the two a's somehow render an ai sound. As a classics student in Germany, I always heard it pronounced Nausiká-a.
I can't seem to find any reason in my grammar books for Nausikai,

[Will Parsons]

On Saturday, 17 Feb 2018 4:59 AM -0500, ofonsba...@gmail.com wrote:

> Strangely enough, a site called howjsay.com, which I value terribly
as a source of R.P. pronounces it Nausikai, as though the two a's
somehow render an ai sound.

Fist of all, no-one is going to know what *you* think "Nausikai" is
supposed to indicate - you must use some sort of phonetic notation for
that.

To check, though, I *did* go howjsay.com to hear for myself. What I
heard was somewhat indistict and sounded to my ears something like
nau-SIK-i-av, IPA [nɔˈsɪkɪəv]. Now, this can't possibly be the
intention, so I think what was *intended* was [nɔˈsɪkɪə], which
matches what John W Kennedy wrote in his first response, citing
Wikipedia.

> As a classics student in Germany, I always heard it pronounced
Nausiká-a.

Heard it in German or in Greek? There is a difference.

If you're reading the Odyssey in English, you pronounce Nausicaa as
above. If you read it in Greek, you should pronounce it differently.

> I can't seem to find any reason in my grammar books for Nausikai,

This has nothing to do with grammar, but pronunciation conventions.

--
Will