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Source/ Orignial Latin for: To Dare, To Will, To Know, To Keep silent

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Patrick J. Walsh

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Jun 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/19/00
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Dear Latin Scholars:

My apologies in advance for the cross post. I'm either looking for a
legit latin translation of the following phrases:
To Will
To Dare
To know
To keep silent.

A url pointer to the original quote would be just as good.

regards,

Patrick

Gordon

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Jun 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/19/00
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"Patrick J. Walsh" <pwa...@en.com> wrote in message
news:394e96ed$0$49233$2bfe...@news.tdin.com...

> Dear Latin Scholars:
>
> My apologies in advance for the cross post. I'm either looking for a
> legit latin translation of the following phrases:
> To Will
To want? Velle
To Bequeathe? Legare
> To Dare
Audere
> To know
Noscere
> To keep silent.
Tacere

>
> A url pointer to the original quote would be just as good.

What's the original quote?

Matthew Montchalin

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Jun 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/19/00
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On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Patrick J. Walsh wrote:
|My apologies in advance for the cross post. I'm either looking for a
|legit latin translation of the following phrases:
|To Will
|To Dare
|To know
|To keep silent.
|
|A url pointer to the original quote would be just as good.

Context otherwise wanting,

VELLE DARE SAPERE SILERE = to will, to dare, to know, to be silent

but watch out because you might accidentally use

VELLERE, DEGERE, SCABERE, SIDERE, which is what chicken farmers are
born for. And they do it all live long day.

Valerius

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Jun 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/20/00
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Velle, Audere, Scire, Tacere

Just my translation.

"Patrick J. Walsh" <pwa...@en.com> wrote in message
news:394e96ed$0$49233$2bfe...@news.tdin.com...
> Dear Latin Scholars:
>

> My apologies in advance for the cross post. I'm either looking for a
> legit latin translation of the following phrases:
> To Will
> To Dare
> To know
> To keep silent.
>
> A url pointer to the original quote would be just as good.
>

> regards,
>
> Patrick

Filippo Nieddu

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Jun 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/20/00
to
Gordon wrote:
>
> "Patrick J. Walsh" <pwa...@en.com> wrote in message
> news:394e96ed$0$49233$2bfe...@news.tdin.com...
> > Dear Latin Scholars:
> >
> > My apologies in advance for the cross post. I'm either looking for a
> > legit latin translation of the following phrases:
> > To Will
> To want? Velle
> To Bequeathe? Legare
> > To Dare
> Audere
> > To know
> Noscere

'Noscere' refers more to the process of learning, while 'scire' (see
Valerius' post) talks about something we have in our database ever
since. The key is the anamnesis.

> > To keep silent.
> Tacere


> >
> > A url pointer to the original quote would be just as good.
>

Dr. Axel Bergmann

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Jun 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/20/00
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> Gordon wrote:

> [.....]


> What's the original quote?


For an at least intermediate quote cf.

http://www.psychic-choice.com/avalonpsychics/magickaltools.html

. Best wishes,
Axel


Gordon

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Jun 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/20/00
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"Dr. Axel Bergmann" <berg...@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> wrote in message
news:394FE7BF...@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE...

> > Gordon wrote:
>
> > [.....]
> > What's the original quote?
>
>
> For an at least intermediate quote cf.
>
> http://www.psychic-choice.com/avalonpsychics/magickaltools.html
>

ah, thanks.

Matthew Montchalin

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Jun 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/20/00
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On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Gordon wrote:
|> > What's the original quote?
|>
|>
|> For an at least intermediate quote cf.
|>
|> http://www.psychic-choice.com/avalonpsychics/magickaltools.html
|
|ah, thanks.

How about posting it here for the benefit of those of us who don't
use html, and who don't like PPP?


Patrick J. Walsh

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
to
Gordon wrote:
> What's the original quote?

Gordon:
The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen
it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books, but I have not been able
to find the original source of the quote.

thanks,
Patrick


Filippo Nieddu

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
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Dr. Axel Bergmann wrote:
>
> > Gordon wrote:
>
> > [.....]

> > What's the original quote?
>
> For an at least intermediate quote cf.
>
> http://www.psychic-choice.com/avalonpsychics/magickaltools.html
>

Then, I would say 'noscere'.

> . Best wishes,
> Axel

Regards
Filippo

John Woodgate

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
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<39505bf6$0$1498$2a0e...@news.tdin.com>, Patrick J. Walsh
<pwa...@en.com> inimitably wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>> What's the original quote?
>
>Gordon:
>The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen
>it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books,

Are those written by mercurial writers, or are the themes impenetrable?
(;-)

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk I wanted to make a fully-
automated nuclear-powered trawler,but it went into spontaneous fishing.
PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me.

Dr. Axel Bergmann

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
to
> Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> |> For an at least intermediate quote cf.
> |> http://www.psychic-choice.com/avalonpsychics/magickaltools.html

> How about posting it here for the benefit of those of us who don't


> use html, and who don't like PPP?

Dear Matthew,

is it a technical or a religious cause that makes you rejecting &
avoiding *.htm ? And what's "PPP" ??

Here, however, the pure *.txt belonging to the above URL is attached (of
course, de-HTMLizing is simple; but -- much more tricky thing -- I'm
seeking for some software which'll be able to convert WinWord6-files
[and perhaps WinWord2-files and WordPerfect-files, too ?] into
HTML-files ready to be e-mailed to Marburg University's web server: "Put
this stuff on my home page !", _without the WinWord text formattings --
italics, fatting, variation of fonts, etc. -- having been destroyed in
that converting process_).

Best wishes,
Axel


MAGICKAL.TXT

Dr. Axel Bergmann

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
to
> Patrick J. Walsh wrote:

> > Gordon wrote:
> > What's the original quote?
>
> Gordon:
> The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen

> it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books, but I have not been able
> to find the original source of the quote.
> thanks, Patrick


Dear Patrick,

the 'original' Latin wording is "Scire. Potere. Audere. Tacere. ZOROASTER"
according to

http://cybertempli.mysteria.cz/alchy4.htm

which is a site composed completeley in Tchechian, a language I don't
understand -- but it seems that it attributes that wording to a certain
FULCANELLI.

Hth.
Best wishes,
Axel


John Woodgate

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
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<3951535D...@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Dr. Axel Bergmann

Well, that Latin says 'To know, to be able, to dare, to be silent.',
which has a certain conceptual flow to it.

Gordon

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
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"John Woodgate" <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:otxPtLAD...@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

> <3951535D...@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Dr. Axel Bergmann
> <berg...@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE> inimitably wrote:
> >> Patrick J. Walsh wrote:
> >
> >> > Gordon wrote:
> >> > What's the original quote?
> >>
> >> Gordon:
> >> The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen
> >> it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books, but I have not been
able
> >> to find the original source of the quote.
> >> thanks, Patrick
> >
> >
> >Dear Patrick,
> >
> >the 'original' Latin wording is "Scire. Potere. Audere. Tacere.
ZOROASTER"
> >according to
> >
> >http://cybertempli.mysteria.cz/alchy4.htm
> >
> >which is a site composed completeley in Tchechian, a language I don't
> >understand -- but it seems that it attributes that wording to a certain
> >FULCANELLI.
>
> Well, that Latin says 'To know, to be able, to dare, to be silent.',
> which has a certain conceptual flow to it.

Except of course, that "to be able" should be "Posse."
I guess Zoroaster's a bit rusty on his irregular verbs
(At least he's not a royal, then we'd know he missed it
because he was up late scribbling graffiti in lavatrinae).

Dr. Axel Bergmann

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Jun 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/21/00
to
> John Woodgate wrote:

> [.....] which has a certain conceptual flow to it.

.... as is normally to be expected in those esoteric, neo-magickal circles.

(-:

To become serious again: this flow and others -- which can be found in many an
eso internet site -- of our *quote's* Latin wording point to it being translated
from some Greek (or even Old Iranian ?) original text.

Best wishes,
Axel


John Woodgate

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Jun 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/22/00
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<8ird1g$n9$1...@hiram.io.com>, Gordon <moi...@io.com> inimitably wrote:

I wrote:

>> Well, that Latin says 'To know, to be able, to dare, to be silent.',

>> which has a certain conceptual flow to it.
>

>Except of course, that "to be able" should be "Posse."
>I guess Zoroaster's a bit rusty on his irregular verbs

Well, I assumed that 'to drink' or 'to subjugate' was inapt in the
context, so.....

Filippo Nieddu

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Jun 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/22/00
to
Dr. Axel Bergmann wrote:
>
> > Patrick J. Walsh wrote:
>
> > > Gordon wrote:
> > > What's the original quote?
> >
> > Gordon:
> > The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen
> > it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books, but I have not been able
> > to find the original source of the quote.
> > thanks, Patrick
>
> Dear Patrick,
>
> the 'original' Latin wording is "Scire. Potere. Audere. Tacere. ZOROASTER"
> according to
>
> http://cybertempli.mysteria.cz/alchy4.htm
>
> which is a site composed completeley in Tchechian, a language I don't
> understand -- but it seems that it attributes that wording to a certain
> FULCANELLI.

He must be the guy who said that the word 'gothic' has a weird origin:
from 'argotique' (the French 'argot' is a language whose words are
obtained by permutations of groups of letter with euphonic effects) we
have 'art gotique'. He meant that those who built gothic cathedrals did
not want to be understood, if not by someone who 'knew' (in this sense I
change my mind, and I choose 'scire' instead of 'noscere', but we can
talk about it).

>
> Hth.
> Best wishes,
> Axel

Salutations
Filippo

Dr. Axel Bergmann

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Jun 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/23/00
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> Gordon wrote:

> >> Axel Bergmann wrote:

> > >> Patrick J. Walsh wrote:

> > >> The English quote is exactly as shown in the subject line. I have seen
> > >> it in a number of modern hermetic-themed books, but I have not been
> > >> able to find the original source of the quote.

> > > the 'original' Latin wording is "Scire. Potere. Audere. Tacere.


> > > ZOROASTER"
> > > according to
> > > http://cybertempli.mysteria.cz/alchy4.htm
> > > which is a site composed completeley in Tchechian, a language I don't
> > > understand -- but it seems that it attributes that wording to a certain
> > > FULCANELLI.

> [....] "to be able" should be "Posse."
> I guess Zoroaster's a bit rusty on his irregular verbs [....]

There seems to exist no trace of finite conjugation of the verbal stem
*pot-[e:]-*, which is present in Class. Lat. *potens* and in Osc. *pútíad* (=
PLat. **poteat** = Lat. 'possit') though, in the extant ante-400-A.D. Latin
texts; but there must have existed a Vulgar Latin (= PRomance) verb *potere*,
from which, then, Italian *potére* = Lat. 'posse' was derived. So that the word
"potere" in the above quote is _either_ Fulcanelli's (vel al.) own
(italianizing) translational error _or_ (possibly with some semantical
distinction from contemporaneous Lat. *posse*) genuine post-400-A.D. Latin.

Cheers,
Axel


William C Waterhouse

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Jun 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/28/00
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In article <3951BFEE...@nospam.polito.it>,
Filippo Nieddu <nie...@nospam.polito.it> writes:
> Dr. Axel Bergmann wrote:
>...

> > the 'original' Latin wording is "Scire. Potere. Audere. Tacere. ZOROASTER"
> > according to
> >
> > http://cybertempli.mysteria.cz/alchy4.htm
> >
> > which is a site composed completeley in Tchechian, a language I don't
> > understand -- but it seems that it attributes that wording to a certain
> > FULCANELLI.
>

> He must be the guy who said that the word 'gothic' has a weird origin:
> from 'argotique' (the French 'argot' is a language whose words are
> obtained by permutations of groups of letter with euphonic effects) we

> have 'art gotique'. ...

Yes, that seems to be right; the Czech title given for the source
seems to mean "The Mystery of Cathedral(s)". Our library contains
a 1964 edition of this book, originally (the book says) published
in 1922; the full title is

Le myste`re des cathe'drales et l'interpre'tation e'sote'rique
des symboles herme'tiques du grand oeuvre

(and "Fulcanelli" is listed in the catalog as a pseudonym).

These four (not quite) Latin words occur, with attribution to
"Zoroastre", as the epigraph to the "Conclusion" (page 223 in
this edition); no further source is given. "Fulcanelli" clearly
does write "potere" and in bold letters translates it into
French as "POUVOIR".

Considering the profusion of pseudonyms used by authors in this
sort of "occult" writing, I think it unlikely that the "Zoroaster"
involved here is the ancient Persian writer.


William C. Waterhouse
Penn State

Phillip David Weaver

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Jul 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/2/00
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Avoid cross posts.

--
http://home.att.net/~philippo/index.htm


Phillip David Weaver

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Jul 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/2/00
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Just something he picked up from a book.

--
http://home.att.net/~philippo/index.htm


Phillip David Weaver

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Jul 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/2/00
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Do you know a lot about chicken-farming?

--
http://home.att.net/~philippo/index.htm


thes...@my-deja.com

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Jul 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/9/00
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> > To know
> Noscere
there's another verb as well:
scire
(vgl. German kennen vs. wissen)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Raul Vieytes

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May 5, 2023, 2:10:11 PM5/5/23
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Well, I'm argentine and got this book of “Fulcanelli” in Spanish, titled “El misterio de las catedrales”, nice edition by Plaza & Janes, Barcelona (first 1967; mine, the sixth, 1973). But is not here where I’ve found that formula first written, but in a pretty former text, “Dogme et rituel de la haute magie”, published in 1861 in Paris, by Germer Baillière Ed. You can download it at https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_lxQRrFze2A0C/page/n1/mode/2up?q=taire. There, some “Éliphas Lévi”, another pope of esotericism, says (Page n116): “Savoir, oser, vouloir, se taire, voilà les quatre verbes du mage qui sont écrits dans les quatre formes symboliques du sphinx”. So is probable that it was first French, then traduced to Latin to make it look archaic, then Fulcanelli changed “vouloir” to “potere”… But why? Who knows, mistery :P Maybe in the 1960s there were more fascination about the “Power” -a post atomic bomb symptom- and in 1861 the occultists believed the “Will” was more intriguing pour les bourgeoises (the huge influence of Schopenhauer, at the time?).

Rich Alderson

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May 5, 2023, 9:09:34 PM5/5/23
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Raul Vieytes <raul.v...@gmail.com> writes:

> El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 28 de junio de 2000 a la(s) 04:00:00 UTC-3, William C Waterhouse escribi=C3=B3:
^^^^

Did you notice that you were replying to a post that was nearly 23 years old?

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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