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Greek language question/Nicene Creed

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David Dalton

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Jan 28, 2023, 7:43:00 PM1/28/23
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In the original Greek of the Nicene Creed the word that is
usually translated as 'almighty` is 'pantokratora', which
someone on soc.religion.christian told me is better translated
as 'All Governing'

However, in that, does the All mean the region all/everything
of instead all someones?

I ask since I define my top deity or Deity Goddess as
the ruler of the region all/everything, and I think
She is equivalent to the Nicene Creed God. (I view
Her as having all eight sexual harmonics, which I
discuss on my Salmon on the Thorns webpage, but I
don't include that in Her definition.)

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"And now the angry morning; Gives the early signs of warning; You must face
alone the plans you make; Decisions they will try to break" (S. McLachlan)

Ed Cryer

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Jan 29, 2023, 5:07:19 AM1/29/23
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David Dalton wrote:
> In the original Greek of the Nicene Creed the word that is
> usually translated as 'almighty` is 'pantokratora', which
> someone on soc.religion.christian told me is better translated
> as 'All Governing'
>
> However, in that, does the All mean the region all/everything
> of instead all someones?
>
> I ask since I define my top deity or Deity Goddess as
> the ruler of the region all/everything, and I think
> She is equivalent to the Nicene Creed God. (I view
> Her as having all eight sexual harmonics, which I
> discuss on my Salmon on the Thorns webpage, but I
> don't include that in Her definition.)
>

I don't think there's any objection to "all" ("omni" and "παντο"
(panto)); it's, rather, over "κράτος" and "potentia" that there appears
to be some dispute.
Perhaps he/she thinks Latin "imperium" might be a nearer translation.
That word always conjures up for me an image of a Roman consul
surrounded by lictors carrying fasces and carving a way for their boss
through the forum. He/she might say that "potentia" comes closer to our
"possibility".
Power or possibility?
παντοκράτωρ and "omnipotens"; the Orthodox Greek world have always used
the former, the western Catholics the latter; the words are carved and
inscribed in manuscripts, over doorways and on windows, and elsewhere.
St Jerome's Vulgate carries "omnipotens".

You'd be getting into subtleties way beyond practical usage if you
changed it; from Aramaic, to Greek, to Latin, to English; and through
all the fluctuations of meaning local and terrestrial throughout the ages.

For your edification and as arrows for your quiver in a newsgroup, I'll
copy and paste the entry for "κράτος" from a good ancient Greek dictionary;

Ed


κράτος 1
κράτος [ᾰ], Ion. and Ep. κάρτος, εος, τό, both in Hom.; Aeol. κρέτος
Alc.25:—
strength, might, in Hom. esp. of bodily strength, ἔπεφνε δόλῳ, οὔ τι
κράτεΐ γε Il.7.142; ἔχει ἥβης ἄνθος, ὅ τε κ. ἐστὶ μέγιστον 13.484, etc.;
τὸ γὰρ αὖτε σιδήρου γε κ. ἐστίν this (i.e. τὸ βάψαι) is what gives
strength to iron, Od.9.393: generally, δικαία γλῶσσ' ἔχει κ. μέγα
S.Fr.80; μηχανῆς ἔστω κ. A.Supp.207; κατὰ κράτος with all one's might or
strength, πολιορκεῖσθαι Th.1.64; πολεμεῖν Pl. Lg.692d; ἐξελέγχεσθαι
D.34.20, etc.: freq. in phrase αἱρεῖν κατὰ κ. take by storm, Th.8.100,
Isoc.4.119, etc.; also ἀνὰ κράτος διώκειν X. Cyr.1.4.23; ἐλαύνειν
Id.An.1.8.1, etc.; ἀπὸ κράτους D.S.17.34; πρὸς ἰσχύος κράτος, opp. λόγῳ,
S.Ph.594.
personified, K. Βία τε A. Pr.12; K. καὶ Δίκη Id.Ch.244.
power, τοῦ γὰρ κ. ἐστὶ μέγιστον, of Zeus, Il.2.118, etc.; τοῦ γὰρ κ.
ἔστ' ἐνὶ οἴκῳ Od.1.359, cf. Il.12.214; Ζηνὸς κ. Pi.O.6.96, cf. A.Pr.527
(lyr.); ἐκπίπτειν κράτους, of Zeus, ib. 948; τὸ κ. τοῦ θεοῦ LXX
Ps.61(62).11, etc.: pl., ὑποχείριος κράτεσιν ἀρσένων A.Supp.393 (lyr.),
cf. S.Ant.485; esp. of political power, rule, sovereignty, ὁ μαιόμενος
τὸ μέγα κρέτος ὀντρέψει τάχα τὰν πόλιν Alc. l.c.; τὸ κ. περιθεῖναί τινι
Hdt.1.129; ἐς τὸ πλῆθος φέρειν τὸ κ. Id.3.81; τὸ πᾶν κ. ἔχειν to be
all-powerful, Id.7.3; ἀρχὴ καὶ κ. τυραννικόν S.OC 373; βασιλεὺς πρῶτος
ἐν κράτει Ὀδρυσῶν ἐγένετο in real power, Th.2.29; later τὸ κ. τῶν
Ῥωμαίων POxy.41i2 (iii/iv A. D.): in pl., κράτη καὶ θρόνους S.Ant.173,
cf. OT586, etc.; θρόνων κράτη sovereign power, Id.Ant.166.
c. gen., power over, τὸ Περσέων κ. ἔχοντα Hdt.3.69; τὸ κ. εἶχε τῆς
στρατιῆς Id.9.42; πᾶν κ. ἔχων χθονός A.Supp.425 (lyr.); τῶν ἄλλων
δαιμόνων E.Tr.949; δὸς κ. τῶν σῶν δόμων A.Ch.480; δωμάτων ἔχειν κ.
Ar.Th.871; τὸ τῆς θαλάσσης κ. Th.1.143; μετὰ κράτους τῆς γῆς Id.8.24; ὧν
ἂν ᾖ τὸ κ. τῆς γῆς whoever have possession of the land, Id.4.98; κ.
ἔχειν ἑαυτοῦ Pl.Plt.273a: pl., ἀστραπᾶν κράτη νέμων S.OT201 (lyr.).
of persons, a power, an authority, Ἀχαιῶν δίθρονον κ. A.Ag.109 (lyr.),
cf. 619, Th.127 (lyr.).
mastery, victory, freq. in Hom., Il.1.509, 6.387, Od.21.280; κ. ἄρνυσθαι
S.Ph. 838 (lyr.); νίκη καὶ κράτη A.Supp.951; ἀέθλων κ. victory in . . ,
Pi.I. 8(7).4; νίκη καὶ κ. τῶν δρωμένων S.El.85; κ. ἀριστείας the meed of
highest valour, Id.Aj.443; ϝίκη καὶ κ. πολεμίων Pl.Lg.962a; κ. πολέμου
καὶ νίκη D.19.130.
Medic., in pl., ligaments, Hp.Mul. 2.167.
= ταρσός, back of the hand, Poll.2.144.
Pythag. name for ten, Theol.Ar.59.—This word and its derivs. take two
forms, κρατ- and καρτ-; the latter is mostly Ep., as κάρτος, κάρτιστος,
καρτύνω, but in κρατερός and καρτερός the reverse holds, v. κρατερός
fin.; κρατέω, κρατύς have no form καρτ-. (κρατ- and καρτ- from κṛτ-,
weak form of κρετ-, cf. κρέτος, κρέσσων.)






Steve Hayes

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Jan 29, 2023, 11:09:03 PM1/29/23
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On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:12:56 -0330, David Dalton <dal...@nfld.com>
wrote:

>In the original Greek of the Nicene Creed the word that is
>usually translated as 'almighty` is 'pantokratora', which
>someone on soc.religion.christian told me is better translated
>as 'All Governing'
>
>However, in that, does the All mean the region all/everything
>of instead all someones?

Almighty is a literal translation of the Greek "pantokrator", but in
English there are two words, with different connotations -- the
Anglo-Saxon "almighty" and bthe Latinate "omnipotent" -- the latter
gets atheists' knickers in several knots.

But "pantokrator" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew "YHWH
Sabaoth", which is also rendered into English as "LORD of Hosts", or,
in one modern translation, "Lord of Heaven's Armies".

In the Old Testament, and in the creed, it indicates that YHWH is
ontologically different from all the gods. The one who is "almighty"
is the maker of all things (not just someones), whether visible (as in
planets, stars, suns, trees, waterfalls, cephalopods, quadrupeds etc)
and invisible (as in gods, demons, angels, fairies, microwaves etc).

It speaks of the difference between creator and creature. See Psalm
81/82.





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