Lucretius 8
Alastor
sound and movement of the words match the meaning. Lucretius is a
master technician. Here is an example, where he is explaining the
dispersive effects of sound. The final line is the punch line:
praeterea partis in cunctas dividitur vox,
ex aliis aliae quoniam gignuntur, ubi una
dissuluit semel in multas exorta, quasi ignis
saepe solet scintilla suos se spargere in ignis. (IV,603-606)
[Paraphrase: Moreover the voice disperses in all directions, because
one begets another, one voice exploding into many, just as a spark
from a fire scatters itself in fires of its own.]
The repetitive s in the last line represents the voice spreading
itself through the air, but it also captures the sound of a spreading
fire as it rushes and hisses through tinder. But here is another, much
more subtle example, this time explaining the difference in taste
between sweet and sour:
hoc ubi levia sunt manantis corpora suci,
suaviter attingunt et suaviter omnia tractant
umida linguae circum sudantia templa.
at contra pungunt sensum lacerantque coorta,
quanto quaeque magis sunt asperitate repleta. (IV,622-626)
[Paraphrase: When the particles of oozing juice are smooth, they
sweetly touch and sweetly caress the moist, salivating area around the
tongue. However, the more rough they are, the more they arouse a
biting and tearing sensation.]
The last two lines capture a spitting kind of movement with the
frequent use of qu and p, which is exactly the movement we make when
we find ourselves chewing something tart and yucky. The first three
lines, on the other hand, create a nicer, lingering movement,
particularly with the repetition of the word 'suaviter'. This word is
unusual in the context of dactylic hexameters because its four short
syllables (short,short,short,short) occupy a single foot, normally
achieved in other words by three syllables (long, short, short) or
even two syllables (long, long). So we get a lingering sensation that
is quite unusual but pleasant because it still fits the metrical
scheme. It matches the sense of something sweet lingering in the
mouth.
Lucretius was a technically gifted poet. However, poetry isn't the
ideal medium for a philosophical or scientific dissertation. For
example lines 577-594 beautifully describe a woodland setting where
satyrs, nymphs, fauns and even Pan himself make music together. Having
convinced us of the charm and beauty of the scene, he then tells us
that it's fictitious and all down to idle superstition. Well, excuse
me Mr Lucretius! But if you were a girl, I'd call you a tease. How can
this scene not exist when I've just felt it in my blood and tingling
all the way up my back?
The other problem with great poetry, as a medium for science, is that
it converts everything into a dogma - who wants to change even so much
as a syllable when so much is perfectly realized in the verse?
Alastor
but if that's the case here, then 'sua' must read like 'swa' in
English, as one syllable. Otherwise the foot doesn't scan. I think it
is probably best treated as short in this case. Anyhow, whether long
or short the effect is still a lingering sensation. Maybe someone here
is deep into Latin metrics. If so, please illuminate the issue - is
'a' long or short here?
Ed Cryer
"Alastor" <ros...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd23bc98-cf56-4fdd...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
suaviter attingunt et suaviter omnia tractant
Dadidi/ dada/da||da/ dadidi/ dadidi/ dada
saepe solet scintilla suos se spargere in ignis.
The alliteration here is astonishing. I think it's a a bit crass and
over the top. You'd never find Vergil going to such excess. Just as
you'd never find him using "praeterea" in verse.
Ed
Alastor
gave is more subtle. I agree that Virgil is the smoother, more
sophisticated poet. Think of a musician who resembles Virgil and I
think of Mozart. But technical virtuosity at that level often seems to
me to be detached from the rawness of life. It's artificial. Lucretius
is in your face, loud and shameless. More like a rock or jazz
musician, I guess. Of course, the chronology in this comparison is
back to front. The jazz musician came after Mozart but Virgil was
building on the foundations that Lucretius put in place (along with
some others like Ennius).
Alastor
'praeterea' example. I assume that this is another word that Lucretius
has squeezed into the meter by modifying the duration of one of the
syllables. But there are two ways he could have done this:
prae(da)-ter(di)-ea(di)
prae(di)-ter(di)-e(di)-a(di)
I like modern verse and the way a poet like Auden or Yeats refuses to
be bound completely by metrical conventions, so this liberty that
Lucretius takes doesn't bother me at all. It even adds to his charm.
Ed Cryer
Sicelides Musae, paulo maiora canamus.
non omnis arbusta iuvant humilesque myricae;
si canimus silvas, silvae sint consule dignae.
(Eclogue IV)
There's something grandiose and witty at the same time in this. The
build-up of sibilant esses, culminating in that last line, is a tour de
force.
Yes, I too think of Vergil as "detached from the rawness of life", as
you put it. But that's why I love his poetry. It's just so ethereal; and
in Latin too, that sergeant major's language! Vergil's poetry never
ceases to astonish me. I could never get tired of it. It's just so way,
way beyond any other Latin poet. It touches the sky.
Ed
Ed Cryer
> By the way, Ed thanks for replying! You've set me thinking about that
> 'praeterea' example. I assume that this is another word that Lucretius
> has squeezed into the meter by modifying the duration of one of the
> syllables. But there are two ways he could have done this:
>
> prae(da)-ter(di)-ea(di)
> prae(di)-ter(di)-e(di)-a(di)
>
Ed
Alastor
I was looking at it in isolation. Thanks again.
Alastor
be Tityrus and I'll be Meliboeus. Here's the sound of geese that my
master, Lucretius, taught me, you rascal, Tityrus!:
...et humanum longe praesentit odorem
Romulidarum arcis servator candidus anser. (IV, 683-684)
[The white goose, guardian of the Roman citadel, detects the human
smell from afar.]
Beat that! Those 'a' sounds perfectly capture the flat honking of a
goose. Equal points if you can find a Virgil quote where the sounds
echo something in the meaning. Top points if it's an animal. If
there's no reply, you lose. It's that simple. You'll find me waiting
for your reply under the fig tree, but by then the figs will all be
gone. - Meliboeus
Ed Cryer
Your Meliboeus name put me straight on to Georgic IV; bees in a swarm.
Humming, hummmmmming, mmmmmmmm.
miscentur magnisque vocant clamoribus hostem.
Ergo ubi ver nactae sudum camposque patentes,
erumpunt portis; concurritur, aethere in alto
fit sonitus, magnum mixtae glomerantur in orbem
Alastor
think I can hear echoes. If echoes is what you want, echoes is what
you get:
sex etiam aut septem loca vidi reddere vocis,
unam cum iaceres: ita colles collibus ipsi
verba repulsantes iterabant dicta referri. (IV, 577-579)
Too bad you missed out on all the figs. I know where there is a
goatskin full of wine, which Menalcas left hanging in a plane tree for
when he's finished de-horning his goats. I'll drain it dry before you
can think of a reply.
Ed Cryer
Now those lines are pretty good; nice and understated.
BTW, how do you scan the first one? It seems to me that in etiam only
the "am" elides, giving;
sex eti' aut septem loca vidi reddere vocis
dadidi da da da|didi dada dadidi dada
Ed
Alastor
> "Alastor" <ross...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes that's the only way to may metrical sense of the line.