Ethical Dative
David M. Spencer
If so please email me the answer along with an explanation as to the
difference between it and the Dative of Judgement.
Gratias,
DSpencer
Discip...@rcn.com
Tom Bell
is a rather loose usage which almost acts like an ablative absolute.
An example: illo loquenti, Aeneas respondit... (not meant to be poetic
BTW!)
I.e. "To him speaking, Aeneas replied." or "in reply to him Aeneas said".
"With regard to..." something might work in some examples of ethic datives.
I am sure that some of the more learned individuals will offer a more lucid
explanation, but I hope this helps.
Yours,
Tom.
"David M. Spencer" <Discip...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:990qru$o92$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Matthew Montchalin
|I've never heard of the "ethical" dative -- just the "ethic" dative,
|which is a rather loose usage which almost acts like an ablative
|absolute.
Andrews and Stoddards' Latin Grammar (1874) says in its Note to Section
228 (3), page 230, involving certain interjections or exclamations made
or found with the dative:
NOTE. (a.) The dative of the substantive pronouns seems sometimes
nearly redundant, but it always convey the expression of a lively
feeling, and is therefore termed DATIVVS ETHICVS; as,
Fur mihi es [...] in my opinion [you are a thief]. Plaut.
An ille mihi liber, cui mulier imperat? Cic.
Tongilium mihi eduxit. Cic.
Ubi nunc nobis deus ille magister? Virg.
Ecce tibi Sebosus! Cic.
Hem tibi talentum argenti! Philippicum est. Plaut.
c.a. creider
>Can anyone give me insight as to what the Ethical Dative is.
>If so please email me the answer along with an explanation as to the
>difference between it and the Dative of Judgement.
I. I don't know why there are two terms, "ethical dative" and "ethic
dative", but I use the former myself. Palmer, _The Latin Language_,
uses the term "ethic". The OED has both.
II. From the online OED:
======================================================
ethical ('ethikel), a.
3. Gram. ethical dative: the dative when used to imply that a
person, other than the subject or object, has an indirect interest in
the fact stated.
1849 L. SCHMITZ Lat. Gram. 212 This kind of dative, which occurs
still more frequently in Greek, is called the Ethical Dative.
4. Gram. ethic dative: = `ethical dative': see ETHICAL 3.
1867 FARRAR Gr. Syntax (1870) 80 To this dative of reference belongs
what is called the ethic (i.e. emotional) dative.
=======================================================
III. Smythe, _Greek Grammar_, 2nd ed. (1956), para. 1486, headed "Dative
of Feeling (Ethical Dative)" writes, "The personal pronouns of the first
and second person are often used to denote the interest of the speaker..."
An example (one of several) he gives is: toiou^to humi^v esti turavvi's
(such a thing, you know, is despotism) Hdt.5,92e:
Also, "_toi_, surely, ... is a petrified dative of feeling (= soi)."
And, "This dative is a form of 1481."
Para. 1481 is headed, "Dative of Advantage or Disadvantage (dativus commodi
et incommodi)"
A linguist colleague with a strong background in the classics turned this
around and spoke of benefactives and malefactives as ethical datives. I
don't know how widespread this usage is/was but don't recommend it.
Under the broad category of "Instrumental Dative Proper", Smythe has a
paragraph, 1512, headed "Dative of Standard of Judgment". If this is
your Dative of Judgement, then it has nothing to do with Ethical Dative.
Bennett, _New Latin Grammar_, however, lists both the ethical dative
and a "dative of person judging" under a category of "Dative of Reference".
Perhaps two of his examples will be useful:
quid mihi Celsus agit? "what is my Celsus doing" (ethical dative)
erit ille mihi semper deus "he will always be a god to me (i.e. in my
opinion) (dative of person judging)
Hope this helps,
Chet Creider
Michael Duffy
filius sibi" i.e. there is a son to him, or he has a son...ITH
"c.a. creider" wrote:
--
Michael Duffy
c/o Siegel's
379 Springfield Ave.
Summit, NJ 07901
908-273-2340
Caelius
wrote:
>the ethical dative is most often just an alternative for the genitive..."est
>filius sibi" i.e. there is a son to him, or he has a son...ITH
>
The sentence you quote includes an example of a possessive dative, not
an ethical dative. The two are not to be lumped together.
I don't understand why you would even post this with all of the
material that has already been cited.
Caelius
Michael Duffy
with me that most often the ethical dative is a term used for what you call a
possessive dative, however, the other posts mention an ethic dative, which i have
never heard of...both professors assured me that the term ethical dative is
exactly what you say it isn't: a catch-all for the odd uses of the dative, i.e.
uses irregular or unique to the dative that defy classification...
Caelius wrote:
--
Caelius
wrote:
>i have asked a professor of mine, two actually, about this, and both seem to agree
>with me that most often the ethical dative is a term used for what you call a
>possessive dative, however, the other posts mention an ethic dative, which i have
>never heard of...both professors assured me that the term ethical dative is
>exactly what you say it isn't: a catch-all for the odd uses of the dative, i.e.
>uses irregular or unique to the dative that defy classification...
>
Who are these professors of yours? More impotantly, is there any
reason why anyone should believe them? Have you ever come across
anyone use the term ethical dative to refer to what is normally called
a possessive dative?
Aside from that, I'm afraid that I don't follow what you yourself are
saying, as you appear to have embraced a contradiction. Your
professors assured you that the ethical dative is a catch-all term for
all of the "odd uses of the dative." At the same time, however, you
apply to this term to the dative-of-the-possessor construction, which
is by no means one that is odd or infrequent, or one that defies
classification. Or is every dative an ethical dative under their
scheme?
Caelius
Gordon
news:3ac66604...@news.ox.ac.uk...
Some folks seem to think that the "normal" Dative (by which thye mean one
that is easily converted in an English word-for-word equivalent) is one that
you can slap a "to" or "for" on the front of and be done with it. William
Sale, at Washington U in St. Louis, taught us that the Greek Dative case was
best built from the Dative of (dis)advantage as its primary meaning: "It
happens to (dative person) that (rest of sentence)." From this use can be
extrapolated nearly all the other datives, such as Possessive, Judicantis,
and Ethic, which was most often used as a "moi" hung off an imperative or
request: "would you do this, as a favor to me (or if you prefer, 'a thing
which would be to my advantage')?" What some folks call "Dative of Interest"
or "Ethical Dative" he and I would tned to call a Dative of (neutral)
Advantage. It ends up being a bit of a "Unified Field Theory" for the Dative
Case, but I've found that it works very well for both Greek and Latin for
the past twenty years I've been using it.
-------
Gordon
"I have as much authority as the Pope.
I just don't have as many people who believe it."
Caelius
wrote:
>Some folks seem to think that the "normal" Dative (by which thye mean one
>that is easily converted in an English word-for-word equivalent) is one that
>you can slap a "to" or "for" on the front of and be done with it. William
>Sale, at Washington U in St. Louis, taught us that the Greek Dative case was
>best built from the Dative of (dis)advantage as its primary meaning: "It
>happens to (dative person) that (rest of sentence)." From this use can be
>extrapolated nearly all the other datives, such as Possessive, Judicantis,
>and Ethic,
Is there any reason why he selected the Dative of (dis)advantage as
his Urbild, as it were? It does not strike me as the best conceptual
framework from which to extract all other datives, and it would also
seem to offer a rather skewed view of how the dative developed.
>which was most often used as a "moi" hung off an imperative or
>request: "would you do this, as a favor to me (or if you prefer, 'a thing
>which would be to my advantage')?" What some folks call "Dative of Interest"
>or "Ethical Dative" he and I would tned to call a Dative of (neutral)
>Advantage. It ends up being a bit of a "Unified Field Theory" for the Dative
>Case, but I've found that it works very well for both Greek and Latin for
>the past twenty years I've been using it.
>
I've just found that technical terms can help me think better when it
comes to syntax, and I prefer them as precise as I can get them. But
perhaps this to a fault.
Caelius
Gordon
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 00:32:18 GMT, "Gordon" <moi...@austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Some folks seem to think that the "normal" Dative (by which thye mean one
> >that is easily converted in an English word-for-word equivalent) is one
that
> >you can slap a "to" or "for" on the front of and be done with it. William
> >Sale, at Washington U in St. Louis, taught us that the Greek Dative case
was
> >best built from the Dative of (dis)advantage as its primary meaning: "It
> >happens to (dative person) that (rest of sentence)." From this use can be
> >extrapolated nearly all the other datives, such as Possessive,
Judicantis,
> >and Ethic,
>
> Is there any reason why he selected the Dative of (dis)advantage as
> his Urbild, as it were? It does not strike me as the best conceptual
> framework from which to extract all other datives, and it would also
> seem to offer a rather skewed view of how the dative developed.
What Sale called the "True Dative", was close in definition to what Allen &
Greenough's New Latin Grammar, section 376, calls a Dative of Reference:
"The Dative often depends, not on any *particular*word* but on the
*general*meaning* of the sentence (Dative of Reference). The dative in this
construction is often called the Dative of Advantage or Disadvantage, as
denoting the person or thing for whose benefit or to whose prejudice the
action is performed." (emphasis theirs)
Sale's own amendment was to remove the phrase "general meaning of" from the
first sentence of the quote, on the reasoning that words modify words, not
their meanings.
The construction "it happens to so and so that X" was our way of rendering
into English a structure that English simply didn't use (at least any more).
I don't know how "skewed" a view it is, but it was tremendously effective,
and most so as a way to keep students from translating Homer into
Translationese and thinking that we'd actually read something thereby.
Hope this helps :-)
Dr. Axel Bergmann
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:25:51 GMT, Michael Duffy <md...@home.com>
> wrote:
> >the ethical dative is most often just an alternative for the genitive..."est
> >filius sibi" i.e. there is a son to him, or he has a son...ITH
> The sentence you quote includes an example of a possessive dative, not
> an ethical dative. The two are not to be lumped together.
> [...]
> >"c.a. creider" wrote:
> > [much useful stuff, snipped for brevity]
... so let me add what the revered German ancestors (and redactors at the
Thesaurus Linguae Latinae) have to say: J.B. HOFMANN / Anton SZANTYR, *Lateinische
Syntax und Stilistik* (Handbuch der Altertumswissenschaft, vol. II 2, 2), München:
C.H. Beck, 1965 / 1997, § 67, pp. 93-98.
In the first place Hofmann and Szantyr say that there has been a Latin group of
special developments (Sonderentwicklungen) of the Lat. dativus commodi /
incommodi, all of which Sonderentwicklungen had in common that they are to be
found especially in the popular and everyday speech (speziell volks- und
umgangssprachlich) and that they mostly occur pronominally (vorwiegend beim
Pronomen). H. and S. also say that the terminology and definitions (Terminologie
und gegenseitige Abgrenzung) of these special developments of the dat. commodi are
controversial (strittig); so ... cool down, folks ... .
Then they subdivide the said group of datives into the following primary species
(all of which species are given an extended and learned discussion -- this stuff
_is_ somewhat tricky indeed !):
(a) dativus ethicus (e.g. *ecce tibi !*, *en tibi !*),
(b) dativus sympatheticus (e.g. *alicui spem augere / minuere*),
(c) dativus iudicantis (e.g. CATULL. 86, 1: "Quintia formosast multis"),
(d) dativus auctoris (e.g. PLAUT. Amph. 891: "faciundumst mi illud").
For the dativus ethicus they give the following definition (p. 93, Umlauts etc.
expanded):
"Als D a t. e t h i c u s laesst sich der umgangssprachliche Gebrauch der 1.
und 2. Personen (_mihi_, _tibi_, _nobis_ usw.) herausgreifen, deren Setzung vom
Standpunkt der kuehlen und objektiven Schriftsprache ueberfluessig erscheint. Er
tritt vor allem in der Erzählung auf und soll hier lediglich die Aufmerksamkeit
oder das Interesse des Hoerers an der Satzaussage [...] erwecken und festhalten,
nicht jedoch die organische Solidaritaet ausdruecken, was in den Bereich des
sympathetischen Dativs faellt [...]."
Best wishes,
Axel