Beginner Problems

[Ninni Curinga]

Hi, i write again because last message was cut.

i m a newbie and i have problems in easy and advanced mode, because i shot these 74pics without tripod. is there a way to fix it? how can i give you files here? if i send it tell me "message is too long". Hugin it didnt work in advanced mode and file was not created. Thank you so much

[Ninni Curinga]

As you can see, in "easy mode" the result was not good, is there a way to fix it? i can send you all surce pictures, can somebody help me and explain? In attachment the LOG of a failed test, in easy mode but with the same pics in Low Resolutions. Thank you for any help!

[dkloi]

Shooting handheld can be done (done it myself) but it's not the easiest starting point for a beginner. Also, 74 photos seems to be quite a lot. What focal length did you use? With a 20mm lens (on a panohead) I shoot 8+8+8+Z+N (26 shots). If you shoot at 14mm, even with extra overlap due to shooting handheld, you should be able to get away with about the same or fewer shots to cover the sphere with some care.

I'd suggest picking up a panohead just to make it much simpler, especially when you are starting out. If you want to practice how to stitch, then I have some examples, for instance at https://www.dkloi.co.uk/?p=1490

A simple set-up would be to get something like https://panosociety.com/products/nodal-ninja-3-mkii-starter-package and a fisheye lens like https://www.amazon.co.uk/7artisans-Fisheye-185%C2%B0Manual-Mirrorless-Cameras/dp/B0DK1PMNQ2/?th=1

The 14-24mm is quite a big lens so I'm not sure it'd fit on a NN3 MK II.

[Ninni Curinga]

thank you for reply. i didn't had a tripod with me that day, and forecast conditions were perfect. so i d like any help to merge those pictures if possible better than i done, and some help in Advanced Mode. i d like to learn. if i upload all pictures in my web space, can you please help me somehow?

[dkloi]

You said you wanted to test Hugin in your first post. Doing a 74 shot handheld pano is probably not the most advisable way of doing so as a beginner. I would suggest you take a simpler set of test shots and build up your knowledge and experience. And you can use the example I have linked to in my previous message. I have a tutorial (still in draft) at https://www.dkloi.co.uk/?p=1636 also with example source images and a project file.

You still haven't said what focal length did you use. What was it? Why so many shots?

I would suggest you go through the Hugin examples and tutorial first to understand the process before tackling your own set of images. If you want to get a good stitch out of your 74 image set, then you may be able to do it manually in expert mode:

- Between each overlapping image pair, place a couple of control points. The required number of control point pairs may depend angle of view of each shot, fewer control point pairs are needed for narrower angle of view source images, I have found. Try to place the control points along the middle of the overlapping region, this is where the seam will be.

- Where an image does not have many features (such as a photo of the sky) to place control points on, these might be able to placed by hand (by setting the appropriate y, p, r parameters)

- Remember to set horizon and/or vertical control points to ensure the panorama is level

- You can set masks to exclude certain parts of the source images

- After setting the control points, start the alignment process. You can proceed in stages, first optimising position, then include field of view, then adding barrel, then optimise everything except translation. At each stage, check your control point errors to find mis-placed control points and correct them.

- You can set the output size, this will scale the magnitude if the control point errors (as this is in terms of the output pano pixel dimensions and takes into account the projection type).

- If you're not getting a good alignment, then you can try giving each source image a different lens. The optimiser can adjust each angle of view, barrel, etc. of each image to try to get a good alignment. 

- When the alignment is satisfactory, then you can move onto photometric optimisation. I usually do this in stages as well. Using the Custom Parameters, I'll first start out by optimising the EV values only. Then I'll add in Vb, Vc, Vd, Vx, Vy. I usually untick the EMoR options (leave it as default). Finally I'll add in the White Balance Er, Eb. Remember to keep one of the image's EV, Er, and Eb un-optimised as this will be the anchor image for the exposure.

- You can use the Preview Panorama to check your progress. You can also adjust the output brightness of your stitched image here.

You probably have some redundancy in your shots, 74 seems a lot for a Z6 and a 14-24mm lens, even if shot at 24mm. You can remove the un-needed shots to make your life easier.

My first spherical pano was done using a 27mm (equivalent) lens without a panohead. I spent ages and it still had major stitching errors due to parallax. I was not keen on spending hours trying to rescue a parallax-filled large set of photos any more.

I quickly got a panohead, still using a 27mm lens, so shooting a 10+10+10+Z+N pattern. These were manually assembled in Hugin, for example https://www.360cities.net/image/rome-san-lorenzo-in-lucina and https://www.360cities.net/image/glasgow-royal-exchange-square were taken in this way.

This pano https://www.360cities.net/image/spain-barcelona-casa-batllo was taken handheld using a fisheye lens, but it was not practical to use a tripod in this situation.

[Ninni Curinga]

Thank you for help. i knew there are software able to crate 360x180 equirectangular panorama, but i never tested before. when i visited a panoramical area i remember about Hugin and then as impromptu i tried to make shots with z6 14-24mm f2.8 at 14mm focal lenght and i was afrai some of these were not good and then i shot a lot while rotating, to "help" software to understand the scene.

i had no tripod so even if i tried to stay in the same position of course while rotating i was not perfectly geometrically held in that position.

i tried hugin chosing a part of those pictures (less than 74) but it didnt help.

it's a shame because climatic conditions were really good, did you see the attached picture in the first messages?

[dkloi]

You can try putting them into PTGui (trial version) and see what you get. It might be a better option for a beginner and this sort of shot if you do not want to try manually assembling the panorama in Hugin.

Tiff images don't seem to display properly on my phone. Better if you use jpg (also reduces file size)

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Hello Ninni,

First of all, I never use a tripod, not because I think it would be a bad idea, but because I don't want to carry a tripod everywhere.

Because I don't use a tripod, I need to make quite a few adjustments in order to get good results. To do this, I suggest you switch Hugin to the Expert Interface.

On 10/05/2025 15:04, Ninni Curinga wrote:

i was afrai some of these were not good and then i shot a lot while rotating, to "help" software to understand the scene.

Yes, this is a good idea. In a similar situation, I examine each image to see if it is duplicated and out of focus, and if so, I eliminate it (or at least I tell Hugin not to include it in the final image).

i had no tripod so even if i tried to stay in the same position of course while rotating i was not perfectly geometrically held in that position.

Examining your resulting image, I would add a horizontal line on the sea horizon. If the railing bars are indeed vertical, I would set a few vertical bars on them as well as on the pillar on the right.

You should check that Hugin did not put control points in places where it can not work. For example, clouds, or waves in the sea. But also on the railing: since you shoot handheld, there are bound to be parallax errors between close and remote items. I guess you are more interested in the landscape than on the railing, so I suggest you remove any control point on the railing. What to do with the pillar is more tricky. You could also check the control points distance (press F3 to get the list) and check if control points with a great distance are correctly set.

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[Ninni Curinga]

Thank you Davi, i don't know yet how to set horizontal line, i know how to add control point manually. before to bore you with silly questions, can i ask if there is one or more video explaining Hugin advanced mode? if any of you would like to teach me, we can deal for a price and a lesson based on the procedure to obtain something better than what i did. a kind of pratical recorded video while merging my pictures. i would like to learn to make there shots without tripod even because i m a hobbist so it's difficult for me to bring tripod everytime expecially when i travel with low cost company :-D any help is appreciated

Ninni

[Ninni Curinga]

Hi Dkloi,

i ve seen your profile: congratulations, you re a pro! i was in scotland in 2001, in st Andrews (fife), congratulations for 360* pic in the old cimitery and church ruins, one of the most impressive place i ve seen in my live.

i d like to know if i can have better results, or if i was wrong in shoting and then i cannot solve anything. i can also buy rails but my problem is that i don't have time enough to shot everyday so it's difficult to find the perfect weater day and being in a good place to shot. i'm a hobbist who likes to do the best as i can, of course i need nodal rails to obtain the best. i have a 14-24mm, should i buy the fisheye lens? does it help in 360* pano pictures instead of 14-24?

thank you again

Nino

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

I don't know about videos (I am an old-fashioned text guy), but you'll find explanations about the Expert Mode here: https://wiki.panotools.org/Hugin_Panorama_Editor_window

If you stick to handheld shooting, I guess you will have to learn how to use the Advanced / Expert mode.

My first suyggestion is to copy the .pto file Hugin generated when it created the panorama. This .pto file contains all the settings which Hugin used to create the panorama. Copy it under a new name and then use the copy, so that you will always have the original if your modifications get worse results.

Switch to Advanced or Expert mode and you will see several tabs appear which will show you some of the steps of what Hugin did under the scenes, and will also allow you to correct things when Hugin's automatic choices were wrong.

Look at everything, read the docs and see if you begin to understand how all this works.

There are also  a few tricks I could tell you about shooting, but this will be for another mail because I don't have the time right now.

And don't worry if I am long in answering, I am frequently busy elsewhere 🙂 But other users will probably answer your questions too.

On 10/05/2025 17:43, Ninni Curinga wrote:

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

A few handheld shooting tricks:

First of all concentrate on what your main subject will be. In your
panorama, I guess the real subject is the sea and the mountain, maybe
the wall and the pillar, but not the railing. This is very important
because when shooting handheld, you will probably get parallax issues,
unless the whole image is at the same distance from you. So to create
the panorama, you will tell Hugin to choose points on this subject and
to neglect points closer or farther than your main subject.

I don't know if you started to read the Hugin documentation, but in
order to understand the following suggestions, you must understand that
Hugin uses "control points", points which are set on the same elements
on contiguous images. Hugin usually sets control points in the middle of
patches of the same colour.

Try to take your pictures so that contiguous images will have static
elements from this real subject in common. "Static" means obviously not
on a wave or a moving car or the leaves of a tree in the wind, but also
not on a cloud (unless you are trying to make a panorama of the sky
itself). Those elements should not be too large. Not a close beach or
big wall, but a foot print or a stone in the wall

The more widespread are the control points, the better. For example,
pick a few details on the coast, ideally at least two at the top and two
at the bottom. For good results, the points should not be aligned, so
that 3 points on the same the left edge of a building won't help as much
as 2 on the left edge and 1 on the right edge (2 on the left edge and 2
on the right edge will be even better). This means that you should
ensure that the common part of contiguous images will allow for such
points as much as possible. Obviously, this would not be possible for
the part of your panorama where there is only the railing and the sea:
the railing is not the main subject so that placing points on it will
probably not give good results and I can see nothing which could be used
as a control point in the sea. Which leads to my next suggestion:

If there is a large space without any distinct element, try to take it
in one picture. I am not sure if this would have been possible in your
situation, but I would have tried to take the whole sea in one picture.
This is also true with a not so large but important item, for example a
building: try to take it whole in one picture. BTW, judging by your
shadow, you are using your camera in portrait mode. You could also use
it in landscape mode, in order to get a wider horizontal field of view.
Hugin is perfectly able to create a panorama from a set containing
portrait and landscape pictures.

Check if there is a better place to take your pictures from. Sometimes,
moving just a few steps can help make parallax issues less obvious. For
example, I would have tried to take the pictures from closer to the
railings, in order to get them out of the way as much as possible.

One advice, less related to shooting: If you know how to use an image
processing software like the Gimp, make Hugin create a "Normal panorama
with layered TIFF output", you will get a TIFF with one layer per photo
and you will be able to define precisely which photo to use for each
zone of the panorama, which can be useful to avoid some issues like the
discontinuities in the railings. This also allows you to use parallax to
hide elements: if there is an ugly road sign, take one picture, move one
step to the right or to the left and take the same picture, then in the
panorama you can choose the visible part of each source image so that
the road sign will "disappear". Or take a few pictures of the same scene
with people moving around and you can "erase" the people.

[dkloi]

A fisheye lens helps in reducing the number of shots required to cover the entire sphere. Something like a Samyang 12mm/2.8 will allow a 4+Z+N shooting patter (4 shots taken in portrait format at 90 degree intervals around the equator, Zenith, and Nadir), handheld you may wish to take 6 shots around the equator to give a bit more overlap and leeway. The actual focal length of the Samyang 12mm/2.8 is around 13.1mm, so using a Z6 should give roughly 14Kx7K panoramas, versus 15Kx7.5K for a 14mm lens.

You could get something like an 7.5mm or even 6.5mm fisheye lens that would allow 4+N or 3+N shots (even 2+N on some lenses if you are adventurous), but with the trade-off of a smaller final pano. At this point, you may wish to consider getting a 1-shot camera instead (though at the expense of image quality). There are some inexpensive options (<£150).

I prefer to use a tripod+panohead as I often want to take scenes in low-light. It also reduces the problem of parallax (not usually an issue except for some cases where the entrance pupil shift becomes a problem with very close objects).

If you want to shoot handheld, you could try the Philopod technique https://wiki.panotools.org/Philopod https://www.philohome.com/tripod/shooting.htm https://wiki.panotools.org/Philopod_pitch_variation https://www.pano-guru.com/tutorials/tutorial-1/

[Ninni Curinga]

Thank you again.

yes i know what are control points, i also added them manually but still doesnt work good. as you wrote, my subjects are seaside, landscape and not rail.  I always get a non-linear horizon or the repetition of the tip of Sicily at the bottom, as you can see in the file I sent. It's a shame that such expensive cameras don't have a built-in function like in smartphones that helps you create these kinds of pics. my last try will be Ptgui latest version, if it solves automatically this problem i ll buy. do you know some A.I. service that can help in creating 360* pic?

[Ninni Curinga]

thank you. well, i d like to use my camera (and buy a fisheye, it's not expansive) i thought making more pics could help software in producing the 360* final picture.

as you suggested, i ll try with ptgui latest version!

i ll let you know :-)

[David W. Jones]

Hi, Ninni!

I shoot a lot of sea horizons from shore. The best way I've found around the non-linear or wavy horizon issue is to go the Control Points tab and manually add horizontal lines to the horizon in each frame before generating any automatic control points. 

Then I run Hugin cpfind to generate automatic control points.

This gives me consistent good results for a straight, level horizon.

I think it also helps Hugin find good control points since it gets to start with a set of known good horizontal control points.

Maybe that will help.

Happy panorama making!

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David W. Jones
gnome...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com
My password is the last 8 digits of π.

[Ninni Curinga]

can you please tell me how to add manually horizontal lines in each frame?

1)i am in Advanced Hugin mode

2)i add pictures (in the main "photo" window)

3)i usually click on "generate control points" (Hugin Cp Find mode)

4)and then i add/modify control points in the "control point" tab on high on the screen.

how to add horizontal line?

thank you

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Ninni,

The Hugin documentation provides a very reliable explanation for this : https://hugin.sourceforge.io/docs/manual/Hugin_Control_Points_tab.html and https://hugin.sourceforge.io/docs/manual/Horizontal_control_points.html

To see them in action : https://hugin.sourceforge.io/tutorials/perspective/en.shtml

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[Ninni Curinga]

Tried to do with manual horizontal lines and ptgui trial..nothing good, unfortunally source pictures are so bad. :-( i will not delete them, waiting for some better automatized software or A.I. helping me on that. in the meanwhile, if someone of you would like to try, we can deal price for a lesson.

Thank you so much for support, and congratulations to you all who really create wonderful 360* pano pics.

have a great day, send you hugs!

Nino

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Nino,

Maybe you could share the photos somewhere (Google Drive, Dropbox, ...)
I may have the time in a few days to give it a try and at least give you
some ideas on how to improve thigs next time.

[Ninni Curinga]

thank you, i don't pretend you to work for free. if you like, we can deal for some price. i d like to learn so next time i ll be better. i ll also buy nodal rail and fisheye, unfortunally i have 14-24mm so expansive i would better like to use it instead of buying a fisheye, but if you suggest me a fisheye that means it's the right way to do!

source pictures here
https://e.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=kZo9vqZ5xpnsahXumpspsw5mOHh77GxnKzy

and this is my juzaphoto profile, just to have fun

https://www.juzaphoto.com/me.php?p=189460&l=en

Thank you so much

Nino

[dkloi]

No need to buy a fisheye to use with a panohead, the 14-24mm will work. For shooting at 14mm, you can use a pattern of 6 shots around at 0 degrees pitch, 3 shots around at +45 degrees pitch, 3 shots around at -45 degrees pitch, plus the nadir shot. There are other patterns you could use but this one should be pretty safe. For example, you can use 9 shots (see attached) plus a nadir shot.  You could think of getting a fisheye if you want to reduce your shot pattern when shooting at 15mm or 16mm or shorter.

When getting a panohead, you should check that it is big enough for the lens you are using. The Nodal Ninja 6 might have a long enough upper rail, but the Nodal Ninja 3 might be too small for the no-parallax point (entrance pupil) to be placed at the centre of rotation.

[Ninni Curinga]

thank you, i understood clear! nodal ninja 6 is too expansive, should be better buy a fisheye and a normal nodal rail. i can use nikon z6 internal inclinometer to shot +45 and -45 degrees ;-)

[dkloi]

You can build a panohead yourself out of arca swiss rails, clamps and rotators. I built one for use with the Canon 8-15mm + A7Rm3A with an adapter as it was too big for my NN3MkIII. If you have some parts lying around, that could be a cheap way.

There are other solutions that are cheaper than the NN6 which might work with the 14-24mm. https://www.amazon.co.uk/SUNWAYFOTO-CR-3015A-Spherical-Panoramic-Compatible/dp/B07CNHLRH2 might work (no guarantee). This is another option https://panosociety.com/collections/panoramic-heads/products/nodal-ninja-ultimate-m1l-rd16-advanced-rotator You can also look at https://www.nodalninja.com/ for deals on Factory Irregulars

PS "nodal" or "nodal point" actually refers to something different to the no-parallax point or entrance pupil of a lens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_pupil "Panoramic photographers often incorrectly refer to the entrance pupil as a nodal point, which is a different concept."

[Ninni Curinga]

ok! clear. question: when you wrote some days ago:

" For shooting at 14mm, you can use a pattern of 6 shots around at 0 degrees pitch, 3 shots around at +45 degrees pitch, 3 shots around at -45 degrees pitch, plus the nadir shot "

did you mean holding camera in horizontal mode, am i right? 360degrees in 6shots means 60* pan, with 36x24mm and not 24x36mm. i ll buy a nice rail and i ll try to enjoy.

and yes, usually they don't make difference between no-parallax point and nodal point, maybe because they are close each other. i think the best way is to set manually this point moving the camera on the rail until parallax disappear!

[dkloi]

A 2-axis panohead will usually place the camera in portrait orientation. You will need a 2-axis panohead to use the 14-24mm for spherical panoramas, not a single rail. A 14mm rectilinear lens has a field of view of around 81 degrees on the short dimension and 104 degrees on the long dimension.

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

I found the time to get a better result. I attached the result (low-resolution version) and the pto file that generated it. It took me quite a few hours to get this. One of the problems is that there were quite large parallax errors, especially facing north. Hugin tried to reconcle far points on the horizon and points on the floor and the railing, which led to bad results. Compare the distance from the railing to the horizon between pictures 0, 25, 26, 50 and pictures 70 and 71.

In order to improve things, I removed many points on the floor. Now that I think of it, I should have done differently: in the last row of photos (from the 52nd = DSC5802), I should have left the bottom points and removed the points on the horizon. But I've seen with this set of photos too long now, I'd rather do something else🙂.

I also removed all points on the railing. I deleted all points on close foliage as even a small breeze would have moved the leaves. I removed all points which were too different according to Edit -> Fine-tune all points. I added a few horizontal and vertical lines. I kept points in the clouds: I hoped they weren't moving too fast and there were so few points around the sea.

As I explained I always shoot handheld, with roughly 25% overlap and I seldom get so weird results.
- if there are close and distant elements, I choose some point on the floor and don't move from there, not even by one step (unless I want to cheat and remove some undesirable close element)
- I just do horizontal panoramas (one row of photos only), which makes it easier to stay in the same place.

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[David W. Jones]

I just do horizontal single row panoramas, too, almost always handheld.
Also, like you, stand at one spot and rotate my body carefully. I use
about 50% overlap. Everything pretty much works out well, even when I
get adventurous and shoot a second row above the first one.

In Hugin, I add horizontal lines to sea horizons (or the tops of fences
if there's a line of fencing behind what I'm shooting) before running
any other automatic control point detection.

I've also found that progressing through the Hugin geometric
optimizations helps if I follow each by running Clean control points
after each one. Start with positions (incremental), then Positions
(y,p,4) and so on. If I'm feeling really aggressive, I'll keep doing the
"Everything without translation optimization > Clean control points >
repeat optimization"  process until no points are removed after cleaning.

I just use ordinary lenses - 28-75mm zoom and a 500mm reflex. I don't
have anything in the fisheye range and don't see a need for one. I shoot
using a full-frame 60MPX camera and love lots of details, so the idea of
using a wide angle or fisheye to cram a wider field of view into the
frame just means (to me) I would lose details.

A friend of mine's response to me shooting panoramas has always been,
"Just get a wide angle lens already!" 😉

Happy panorama shooting!

On 5/21/25 20:37, Frédéric Da Vitoria wrote:

> As I explained I always shoot handheld, with roughly 25% overlap and I
> seldom get so weird results.
> - if there are close and distant elements, I choose some point on the
> floor and don't move from there, not even by one step (unless I want
> to cheat and remove some undesirable close element)
> - I just do horizontal panoramas (one row of photos only), which makes
> it easier to stay in the same place.

[Ninni Curinga]

thank you.

you wrote

"I just do horizontal single row panoramas". if you don't use fisheye, how can you have 180* vertical with a single row?

if you use a 28mm, it doesnt cover all the sphere in a single row, am i wrong?

[Ninni Curinga]

really thank you, i ll download as soon as possible and try to watch your control points!! it's almost perfect, i can correct the land of Sicily that is a little bit wrong with photoshop. it's very good and i ll try to obtain the same results looking from your project and try to understand how does it work. what lens do you use to shot 360* pano photos? do you use camera in vertical or horizontal mode?

Thank you so much

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

On 22/05/2025 12:22, Ninni Curinga wrote:

really thank you, i ll download as soon as possible and try to watch your control points!! it's almost perfect, i can correct the land of Sicily that is a little bit wrong with photoshop. it's very good and i ll try to obtain the same results looking from your project and try to understand how does it work.

Hugin's complexity is what allows you to assemble panoramas from handheld pictures. In other words, if you don't want to travel with a tripod, you'll have to spend hours in Hugin to fix your panoramas.

what lens do you use to shot 360* pano photos? do you use camera in vertical or horizontal mode?

I never do 360° panoramas, partly because I look / show my panoramas as part of all my pictures, most of which are not panoramas. 360° panoramas need special software to be viewed correctly. Also, I seldom see a scene where I'd like to have more than 180°, and I don't remember any case where I wished for 360°. I guess if had been on the top of a mountain, I would have a different opinion, but I have never been on the top of a mountain. I don't have a reflex or a hybrid, because I don't want to lose time switching lenses, I want to be able to take my camera and shoot immediately, at 25mm or at 600mm, or anywhere in between. When I shoot panoramas, of course, I use 25mm, unless I am aiming at something like a mosaic panorama.

I essentially use Hugin to help me assemble pictures as wide as what a fisheye would give me (or wider). But Hugin allows me to choose the projection. The best projection depends on the scene, usually rectilinear ou Panini for buildings, but natural scenes will look better to me in equirectangular. And sometimes I end up using a more esoteric projection. I also sometimes take a series of pictures using the same framing, for example of a building partly hidden by a crowd of moving people, and use Hugin to remove the people as much as possible.

How I hold my camera depends on the type of panorama I am doing. For horizontal panoramas, I tend to use portrait orientation (unless I have all the height I need in landscape orientation). But for rectangular panoramas, I usually stay in landscape, because handling the camera is much easier that way.

[David W. Jones]

I don't shoot such ambitious vertical panoramas, circular, or full spheres. I basically shoot strips. Sorry if my wording confused you!

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