Creating a panorama from 12 different nearby places

[Samuel Rhoads]

Gentle People: 

I want to create a panorama to use with SkySafari.  The goal is to reproduce the view from the roof of my 400' condominium in Honolulu.  I cannot take a panorama with a tripod from the center of the roof since there's a large air conditioning structure on the roof.  So I thought I would take pictures from 12 different spots around the roof at 0 degrees azimuth, 30 degrees azimuth, 60 degrees azimuth, etc.  The final panorama has to have a transparent sky and extend down to the nadir.  I took a similar panorama 12 years ago but from a fixed position.  I'll attach that pan for reference.

Yesterday I took four shots from 0 degrees azimuth, four shots from 30 degrees azimuth, etc.  I cannot use a tripod because there's a four foot high and three feet wide wall all the way around  so these are hand-held.  I'll attach eight of them  for reference.  I need to stitch together all 48 of these photos, but I don't know if Hugin can do that.  I'm hoping someone can give me some advice.  This is obviously too big to email so I assume those who want to see the images can look at the link.

Please tell me if Hugin can do this!

Thanks and Aloha,

Sam Rhoads

Honolulu

 0_1.JPG

 0_2.JPG

 0_3.JPG

 0_4.JPG

 30_1.JPG

 30_2.JPG

 30_3.JPG

 30_4.JPG

[Sam Rhoads]

Since I cannot stop thinking about this, I thought I would share with you all my current thinking.  

I will first stitch together the four images from 0 degrees to create a sub-panorama, called 0-degrees.  Those four images will all have been taken from the same location so Hugin should have an easy job finding control points.  After doing this for all 12 azimuths, I’ll have 12 sub-pans: 0-degrees, 30-degrees, 60-degrees, …, 330-degrees.  Then I’ll stitch these pans together three at a time: 330-degrees, 0-degrees, and 30-degrees; 60-degrees, 90-degrees, and 120-degrees; 150-degrees, 180-degrees, and 210-degrees; and 240-degrees, 270-degrees, and 300-degrees, to create four sub-panoramas: north, east, south, and west.  Then I’ll stitch these four together to create the final desired panorama.

Any thoughts on this approach?

Sam.

On Jul 23, 2024, at 10:15 AM, Samuel Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com> wrote:



<Honolulu.png>

[Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola)]

You are trying to do what is called a Flying Willy panorama. I did one once from the top of a building. It took me a lot of post editing to make the panorama look without joining defects. The taller the building and the most far the objects, the easier it will be. Your situation is in a city, where wrong stitching will surely appear. I thing it won't be possible without too much editing.

Take a look at mine:

- The article

- Direct link to panorama

At the end the building below vanishes, as if it was the tripod.

Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
http://cartola.org/360
http://www.panoforum.com.br/

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[Claudio Rocha]

The images you posted stitch just fine thus far. Keep in mind that every time you move the camera and place it in a different position (displacement, not rotation) you will be dealing with parallax so there will have to be some creative masking involved.

A few ideas. Create control points by rows and columns. I've never trusted multirow to work automatically, so what I do is create the control points by selecting only the images that I know have common information:  for example select 0_1 and 0_2 and press "create control points"". Repeat for images 0_2 and 0_3, then 0_3 and 0_4. Then move to selecting 0_1 and 30_1 and finding common control points. Then in the Optimize->Geometric select "custom parameters. A new tab labeled "Optimizer" should appear on the top window. 

In the Geometric optimizer window select all the paramaters for image orientation and hit optimize now.

Choosing the "correct" projection might be tricky once you add more images.

[Sam Rhoads]

Hi Claudio and Cartola:

Wow!  I don’t know whether to be happy or sad.   I’ve just spent two full days trying to do what Claudio just sent me.  I’m happy — very happy — to see that image, but sad because I just don’t know how to do that.  Cartloa’s panorama is beautiful but so far beyond what I can do that I’m at a loss for words.

I will try again tomorrow using what you told me to see if I can make progress.

Thank you and muito obrigado!

Aloha,

Sam.

On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:12 PM, Claudio Rocha <marmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The images you posted stitch just fine thus far. Keep in mind that every time you move the camera and place it in a different position (displacement, not rotation) you will be dealing with parallax so there will have to be some creative masking involved.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/f2a3f5f2-c443-4a34-b3d1-1f37ea345dben%40googlegroups.com.

<Geometric.jpg>

<optimizer.jpg>

<0_1 - 30_4.jpg>

[Samuel Rhoads]

I do not see the same things when I run Hugin.  I never see a "control points tab".  Could it be that I'm running the wrong version of Hugin?  I'll attach the starting screen that I see.

Even after I "Align" I don't see what others seem to see.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/f2a3f5f2-c443-4a34-b3d1-1f37ea345dben%40googlegroups.com.

[Samuel Rhoads]

First I should mention that I re-took all 48 images since when I took them previously it was after 1:00 PM and the shadows of the tall buildings were too long.

I'm going to attach the first eight images again -- they have the same names but are new pictures of the same things -- and will attach the next eight as well, since they seem to be visible.

I don't know whether I should keep the text and images from the previous emails.  It seems to get very long if I don't.

I am having a lot of trouble with this.  I simply do not see the same things that others seem to see.  I never see a "control points tab". 

The buildings on the left side of my stitched image tilt to the left, and the buildings on the right side tilt to the right.  I was trying to follow the tutorial that explained how to straighten things, but I just don't see the same things.  Could it be that I'm not running the right version of Hugin?

 0_1.JPG

 0_2.JPG

 0_3.JPG

 0_4.JPG

 30_1.JPG

 30_2.JPG

 30_3.JPG

 30_4.JPG

 60_1.JPG

 60_2.JPG

 60_3.JPG

 60_4.JPG

 90_1.JPG

 90_2.JPG

 90_3.JPG

 90_4.JPG

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Hello Samuel,

Did you switch to Expert Interface?

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[Samuel Rhoads]

No. I didn’t know there was such a thing. 

Sam

On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:04 AM, Frédéric Da Vitoria <davi...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/3f59cc0b-2eab-4965-8736-7e3a5cca3725%40gmail.com.

[Claudio Rocha]

Set the interface to expert. 

If you upload images, make it so that users don't have to download each one of them individually, and in a way that doesn't require a google drive account.

Detail what you are doing so that others can help you, but not do the work for you. :-)

[Samuel Rhoads]

Making progress, I think.  I surely want to learn how to do this myself and do not want others to do it for me.  I did find the Expert interface; thanks Frederic and Claudio.  Here are some questions:

1.  Once in the "control points tab" how do I get out and be able to use the Optimizer?  ChatGPT (aka Chad) tells me how to do that, but once again what he tells me to do, and the things he tells me are on the screen simply are not there.

2.  The "Align..." option found 24 control points, but I added some to control whether or not the buildings are straight.  How do I remove (delete) a control point?

3.  Since my images are all around 9 - 10 MB, I do not know how to send them to the group without putting them on a google drive page.  Is there a way to do that, or should I go into Photoshop and make them smaller?  If I do that, I'm afraid I might lose some resolution.  But since you all are not actually doing the work, maybe that's ok.

4.  When I do run the stitcher, it seems to say that I can choose the prefix, but only allows me to say "all files", which makes no sense.  So it just makes the panorama a tif file.  Claudio -- did you save it as a jpeg or use photoshop to change it from a tif to a jpeg?

5.  Should I continue to try stitching these together four at a time, eight at a time, 12 at a time, or more?  Eventually, of course, I'll need to stitch together all 12, or all 4, or whatever. 

I know I've asked too many questions.  Hoping that I haven't turned you all off.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but thanks as always for your help.

I will try to attach the tif file that results from trying to stitch together 60_1, 60_2, 60_3 and 60_4.  Notice that the buildings are not as straight as Claudio's were.  (That file is over 40 MB.  How do I make it smaller?)

Aloha,

Sam.

 60_1 - 60_4.tif

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[Claudio Rocha]

1- optimizer will be enabled once you select custom parameters for Optimize Geometric

2- to delete control points go to the control points tab, select the images with common control points, select the offending control point and press delete

3- zip your images into a single file and make it available for others as "anyone who has the link". Google has the terrible habit of keeping tabs on anyone that is using shared anything, so some of us prefer to use a private broswer or alternative ways to access other people's files.

4- jpeg is a terrible format. Drop the habit of using jpeg files. Tiff is  larger and not very efficient, but much better quality. Once you have a file you like convert from tif to whatever crappy compressed format you want to use for display.

5- you don't need to stitch and re-stitch fragments of the image. What is important is that you find control points only for images that share common features. So think in rows and columns. Do not select all images and hit find control points, select only images that share common elements and find control points that way. Hugin can do the rest of the sitching for a large image.

6- Befriend yourself with the OpenGL representation of the stiched image before rendering, you can change the projection and, most importantly, the image placement or rotation within the projected stiched image.

7- The file size will depend on the canvas size (yes look for such an option on the Sticther tab.

8- straight is a fluid term when it comes to stritching panoramas, it depends on the projection and placement and rotation of the stitched images. You are trying to display something that can be interpreted in many different ways, all of them correct or incorrect depending on your expectations. read https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-projections.htm

9 have fun! 

[Claudio Rocha]

Just to clarify, import all images into the same project.
The rows of the panorama will be 0_1,  30_1, 60_1, and 90_1
then 0_2, 30_2, 60_2, 90_2 and so on.
Select only tiles that you know have common points and press "create control points".

move to the next selection and do the same thing for the next set:

  and so on

 

until you reach the end of the sets

In the optimizer make sure that everything is selected and press optimize now.

To preview the panorama open the GL preview window:

If everything went fine so far you should have a preview of the panorama

You might need to move/drag or rotate the image until the horizon line is "straight" (to move the image use the Move/Drag tab, press the mouse and move. to rotate press shift while pressing and moving the mouse)

The projection you choose will determine what happens to the panorama:

Equirectangular

Cylindrical

Arquitectural

Fisheye:

[Sam Rhoads]

Claudio, I live in Honolulu.  If you’re ever here, I’ll buy you dinner.

Now to further clarify: you understand, I’m sure, that the full set of images goes from 0_1 through 330_4.  When you say “import all images into the same project” do you mean all 48?

And when you say “select only tiles that have common points”, that would mean, for example, “select 330_1, 330_2, 0_1, 0_2, 30_1, and 30_2” because those are the images that are adjacent to 0_1.  But did you mean “select those tiles in the same row that have common points”?

It’s late here now and I’m typing this on my iPad rather than my desktop so I won’t try to say more now.  Tomorrow morning I’ll get back to it.  Still not clear on how to get out of the “control points tab” and into the “optimizer” but I imagine I’ll see how in the morning.

I am having fun now.

But THANKS!

Sam.

On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:50 PM, Claudio Rocha <marmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to clarify, import all images into the same project.

The rows of the panorama will be 0_1,  30_1, 60_1, and 90_1
then 0_2, 30_2, 60_2, 90_2 and so on.
Select only tiles that you know have common points and press "create control points".

<rows and columns.jpg>

move to the next selection and do the same thing for the next set:

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-29-02.png>

 and so on

 

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-31-47.png>

until you reach the end of the sets

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-33-13.png>

In the optimizer make sure that everything is selected and press optimize now.

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-37-25.png>

To preview the panorama open the GL preview window:

<openGL.jpg>

If everything went fine so far you should have a preview of the panorama

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-42-07.png>

You might need to move/drag or rotate the image until the horizon line is "straight" (to move the image use the Move/Drag tab, press the mouse and move. to rotate press shift while pressing and moving the mouse)

The projection you choose will determine what happens to the panorama:

Equirectangular

<auto_optim_column4_equirectangular.jpg>

Cylindrical

<auto_optim_column4_cylindrical.jpg>

Arquitectural

<auto_optim_column4_architectural.jpg>

Fisheye:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/f7cf7703-f3ca-4355-ac6f-30b812f3bcdbn%40googlegroups.com.

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-37-25.png>

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-31-47.png>

<rows and columns.jpg>

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-29-02.png>

<auto_optim_column4_fisheye.jpg>

<auto_optim_column4_equirectangular.jpg>

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-33-13.png>

<auto_optim_column4_architectural.jpg>

<openGL.jpg>

<Screenshot from 2024-07-25 22-42-07.png>

<auto_optim_column4_cylindrical.jpg>

[Samuel Rhoads]

I am making progress, but still have a lot to learn.  I tried to attach the latest tif file but I didn't since the file size was  376 MB!  Obviously I didn't set the canvas size and the image size correctly.  Indeed, I don't really understand the difference (I'm ashamed to say).

I will attach a screen shot of how it looked.  Claudio suggested that I tell you all what I did so here's a recap of the steps I took -- as best I can remember:

I loaded all 48 jpg images.  (I thought about re-sizing them and saving the re-sized images as PNG files, but went back to the jpgs.)

I then selected 330_1, 330_2, 0_1, 0_2, 30_1 and 30_2, and clicked on "create control points"

That created 91 (?) new control points.

Then I selected 0_1, 0_2, 30_1 and 30_2 and created control points.

Notice that I did 0_1, 0_2, 30_1 and 30_2 again.  I'm still not sure if this creates the same control points over again.

Then I selected 30_1, 30_2, 60_1 and 60_2 and created control points.

Same comment about creating the same control points over again.  I hope someone can tell me.

Then I selected 60_1, 60_2, 90_1 and 90_2.  ditto

I continued this through

330_1, 330_2, 0_1 and 0_2.

Then I selected 0_2, 0_3, 30_2 and 30_3, and created control points.

Then 30_2, 30_3, 60_2 and 60_3.  etcetera, etcetera

Then 0_3, 0_4, 30_3 and 30_4.

Continuing through 330_3, 330_4, 0_3 and 0_4.

I felt like I was re-creating control points, but figured it would be ok to create the same ones over again.

I saved the current project.

Then I found the Optimizer tab and tried to do what Claudio suggested, namely select everything and press optimize.  I didn't know how to select everything and might not have done that right.

I then tried to see what I had.  It had a terrible horizon but by dragging it around, I was able to make it better.  As you can see, I've made some progress but still need to learn more.  Hopefully you all can tell me what I did wrong.

This is getting too long so I'll show you the screen shot and stop for now.  The next step -- where I try to stitch -- I don't do correctly anyway so that's enough for now.

I can put the 376 MB tif file on google drive, but it doesn't look much different from the screen shot.

Aloha,

Sam.

[Carl Ovenschotel]

Good discussion.

For years I have the same plan for a highrise nearby so I'll watch this discussion.

Keep it up!

[Claudio Rocha]

The panoramic it's coming out nicely, you are doing great progress.

Do not worry about creating redundant control points. Hugin is smart enough to deal with that.

You still have a lot of misaligned images.

You need to go to the control points tab and manually create some new points for features far away in the horizon, namely the shape of the mountains in the distance. 

Those new control points will help you straighten with the horizon as well,  Do the same for some of the buildings that now look jagged or cropped. To manually create new points select two images that have common features (like 0_1 and 30_1, for example). One image should be on the left window and the other on the right side, like this:

Then proceed to create a new control point on one of the windows just by clicking on the image.  If all goes well, hugin should be able to find the same feature on the other image!

If for any reason the newly created control point lands on the second window lands on a different place, you need to select it and manually drag it to where it should go. Use the zoom function for more precise placement.

(Refer to the following page for more help https://hugin.sourceforge.io/tutorials/two-photos/en.shtml)

Create a few points for mountains, islands and far away objects. If you find any control points in clouds, you should remove them, as the clouds would have likely moved from photo to photo.

To select or un-select parameters in the optimizer, go to the top of the column list, e.g. Yaw (y), and right click on the column.  A new menu will pop up that allows you to select all or unselect all.

If you added new control points, deleted or modified them press "reset",  Ok, ant then "Optimize now". Everytime you change control points the whole Optimization has to be re-calculated.

The horizon level will be straight or not depending on the chosen projection and the placement on the preview screen. 

[Samuel Rhoads]

Ok.  I think I'll start again.  I don't know how to edit hundreds of control points.  And I don't know how to set the canvas size.  I surely don't want the width to be 21513 pixels!  Can't hurt, I think, to do it all again.  Hopefully I'll learn some more.  I do not intend to re-take the photos.

Sam.

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[Claudio Rocha]

Most of the work you've already done successfully. There is no need to do it again, and certainly there is no need to edit hundreds of control points either! Just add a few that are missing in the horizon, islands and some of the crooked buildings.
Also, when you are on the Control Points section you can evaluate which control points are not reliable. Press F3 (or use the menu View->Control Point Table)

You can see all the control points in the project on that list. As an example I created a new control point that clearly does not belong there. See how the distance information clearly deviates from the average distance of all other control points. This tool is great to find problematic control ponts. If you select one on the Control Point Table, the Control Point window will show you on what images the control point is and then you can just delete it.

The canvas size is set manually in the stitcher tab. If you don't want a huge image
Here's a possible workflow, Once you've set the crop area in the Panorama Preview Window/Crop section, then go back to the main program window. In the stitcher section press calculate optimal size, that will give you a huge picture size. Then just set one of the dimensions (width or height) to a number that works for you, the other dimension hugin will calculate for you.  

[Sam Rhoads]

Ok.  Changed my mind, did not start over.  Added several new control points.  Looked through the control points table, looking for those with large distances.  Even when I saw one that looked larger than the others, when I click on it, the two images seem to match very well do I’m leaving it in.

Please tell me the steps I need to take after adding new control points.  I get confused by all the screens and what to do next.

I clicked on the Optimizer tab and made sure that everything was selected, and then pressed the Optimize now! Button.  It seemed to do several things, took a few minutes,  showed me some numbers, and then finally asked Apply the changes?

I pressed Yes.  Should I now press the Stitcher tab?  I did.  If I click Calculate field of view, the Horizontal is 360, the Vertical is 168.  I don’t know what those numbers represent.

For canvas size if I click on Calculate optimal size, it shows width to be 21716 and height to be 10134.  Those numbers have to be way too big.  If I change width to 4098, when I clicked in the height box, it changed to 1912, which seems reasonable.

I clicked Fit crop to images and get 0 for left, 4098 for right, 632 for top, and 1782 for bottom.  I don’t know if these are reasonable 

I changed the Format to PNG.  Afraid to do anything else so clicked Stitch!

Well, it looks much better.  The horizon is still broken.  I’m trying this on my iPad so I’ll send this email and then go to my desktop and send the png file.

Sam.

On Jul 27, 2024, at 11:05 AM, Claudio Rocha <marmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most of the work you've already done successfully. There is no need to do it again, and certainly there is no need to edit hundreds of control points either! Just add a few that are missing in the horizon, islands and some of the crooked buildings.

Also, when you are on the Control Points section you can evaluate which control points are not reliable. Press F3 (or use the menu View->Control Point Table)

You can see all the control points in the project on that list. As an example I created a new control point that clearly does not belong there. See how the distance information clearly deviates from the average distance of all other control points. This tool is great to find problematic control ponts. If you select one on the Control Point Table, the Control Point window will show you on what images the control point is and then you can just delete it.

<Screenshot from 2024-07-27 13-58-48.png>

The canvas size is set manually in the stitcher tab. If you don't want a huge image
Here's a possible workflow, Once you've set the crop area in the Panorama Preview Window/Crop section, then go back to the main program window. In the stitcher section press calculate optimal size, that will give you a huge picture size. Then just set one of the dimensions (width or height) to a number that works for you, the other dimension hugin will calculate for you.  

<Screenshot from 2024-07-27 13-48-48.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hugin-ptx/82b305d9-ff96-47ff-b98a-c7fc922d73f5n%40googlegroups.com.

<Screenshot from 2024-07-27 13-58-48.png>

<Screenshot from 2024-07-27 13-48-48.png>

[Samuel Rhoads]

Here's the PNG file.  I haven't done anything with it yet.

[Sam Rhoads]

I will assume that everyone can see what Claudio and I have said before so I’m going to trim off much of the older part of this email.  Is that what you all do?

I haven’t spent any time on the PNG file yet, but will in a while.  But I thought I should mention what this panorama is for, and what I’m going to do next.  I’m going to use it In SkySafari.  If you haven’t played with a planetarium program like SkySafari, I recommend it.  They do a wonderful job of showing the nighttime sky.  In order to make the program look like what I see from the roof of my condo, I wanted to create this panorama.  The next step is to make the sky transparent.  Then the stars, planets, galaxies etc get projected onto the sky while the panorama represents the earth.  I guess that’s enough of that.

I cannot thank Claudio enough for all the help he’s given me.   It’s almost finished now.  Thank you Claudio!  Remember to tell me when you come visit Hawai’i so I can buy you dinner.

Carl, I hope this is useful.

I’ll attach the finished panorama later so you all can see (and use?) it.

Aloha,

Sam.

On Jul 27, 2024, at 12:22 PM, Samuel Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Claudio Rocha]

Please tell me the steps I need to take after adding new control points.  I get confused by all the screens and what to do next.

In the optimize window first press reset, reset all the values and then press Optimize Now.

Calculate field of view tells you how many degrees horizontally and vertically are being displayed on the current panorama (assuming the panorama was created from a single point, just rotating the camera. Horizontal 360 means a full rotation.

The horizon is still broken at the places where you cannot set control points (the ocean, waves, clouds and moving objects)... not sure what the solution is. maybe look in this forum or ask a new question.

The buildings on the left side are still very jagged and crooked, you need more control points there. And in the case of mirrored surfaces, make sure that the control points are indeed at the same common feature and not on some false positive.

Also, I have no idea what Sky Safari is, and what kind of projection is used in images for such application.

Good luck!

 

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[Sam Rhoads]

I feel stupid in not realizing that 360 means 360 degrees or a full rotation!

It seems that Hugin should/might allow you to put in a couple of control points and draw a line between them that will result in a straight line in the result.  I’ll ask that question.  Maybe a tutorial?

Take a look at simulationcurriiculum.com to see more about SkySafari.

Sam.

On Jul 27, 2024, at 2:16 PM, Claudio Rocha <marmi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claudio Rocha]

Hugin should/might allow you to put in a couple of control points and draw a line between them that will result in a straight line in the result.

Yes, there is such a feature. Select two points and instead of creating a control point you can create a Vertical or Horizontal line.

https://hugin.sourceforge.io/docs/manual/Straight_line_control_points.html

https://hugin.sourceforge.io/tutorials/calibration/en.shtml

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[Sam Rhoads]

Yes, I need to learn how to insert a t1 control point.

Sam.

On Jul 27, 2024, at 2:35 PM, Claudio Rocha <marmi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Samuel Rhoads]

I put in some t1 and t2 control points.  Cannot say that it makes a difference.  And in several instances the entire building does not fit in two adjacent images so adding t1 or t2 control points isn't possible.  The same thing is true regarding the horizon.  The entire horizon doesn't fit in any one image, and finding control points that match on a featureless horizon is not possible/easy.

There ought to be a way to add two (or three or more) t1 control points to a single image inorder to cause a straight horizon.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Especially since Hugin seems to call an individual control point a "horiz. Line"

[Sam Rhoads]

This tutorial seems to say that you can put the same image on both sides!  I’ll try that later today.

Sam.

On Jul 27, 2024, at 4:23 PM, Samuel Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Harry van der Wolf]

Op zo 28 jul 2024 om 00:20 schreef Sam Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com>:

Ok.  Changed my mind, did not start over.  Added several new control points.  Looked through the control points table, looking for those with large distances.  Even when I saw one that looked larger than the others, when I click on it, the two images seem to match very well do I’m leaving it in.

That sometimes can be the problem. Two bad CPs that seem to have small distances after calculation, can make that a good CP get a large distance. 

Normally Hugin does an excellent job, so first you look for CPs with large distances. If some of those CPs are actually good CPs, then mostly you have one or a few bad CPs that are calculated incorrectly with small distances. These can distort your panorama and can make good CPs look bad. 

And indeed: with hundreds of CPs this can be a tiresome job.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Thanks Harry.  I looked through the Control Point Table, looking for large distances.  There were a few that were around 40-50.  They looked very good to me so I don't understand why the distances are larger than the others.  I deleted a few but since they looked ok, I left the others in.  Not sure what I'm looking for.

Also, I did try what I suggested a bit earlier.  I put the same image on both sides and was able to add some horizontal line control points twice to the same image.  Don't know yet whether or not that will cause the horizon to be straighter.  Will report soon.

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[Samuel Rhoads]

The horizon looks pretty straight thanks, I think, to the horizontal control points that I added to 180_1 (looking south) and 210_1 (30 degrees west of south).  BUT now there are blank empty areas that weren't there before.  I'll attach the latest PNG file and so you all can see.

Time to call it a day.  Back at it tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone.  Aloha,  Sam.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Ok.  I "finished" the panorama.  There's a lot I could say, but since it's "finished", I'll just attach it.

Let me know what you think and tell me if you have any questions.

Sam.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Ok.  It's not really finished.  The resulting panorama is not satisfactory.  Probably that's why no one commented; didn't want to criticize.

Anyway I decided to start all over again after all.

But this time I thought I'd use the original jpegs instead of the pngs.  I had gone into Photoshop and created the pngs thinking that would be better.  But I now think when I did that, I changed the file size and ended up with much worse resolution than the jpgs even though jpeg is a lossy format.  Tell me what you think of that, please.

So I started Hugin, chose File -> New, and loaded the 48 jpgs.  Then i worked on control points.  I selected the images two at a time, choosing images that obviously had overlaps, like 0_1.JPG and 30_1.JPG; 0_1.JPG and 330_1.JPG; 0_1.JPG and 0_2.jpg, etc.  (From now on I'll leave off the .JPG)

I then opened 0_1 in both the left and right side and tried to add horizontal and vertical CPs.  After a lot of time, and eventually selecting eight images at a time rather than just two, I had several thousand CPs.  I noticed that there was no Optimizer tab.  Didn't know where it had gone.

Anyway, when I finally tried to use the stitcher, I got some strange error messages that I didn't understand.  Bottom line, no panorama resulted.

So I decided to JUST create a panorama with the top row of images: 0_1, 30_1, 60_1, 90_1, ... 330_1.  That wouldn't get me the panorama that I needed for SkySafari, but maybe I'd figure out what I was doing wrong.  That failed too.  For reasons that I do not understand when I tried to create CPs for 120_1 and 150_1, Hugin said it couldn't find any.  So I went in and manually found, and created several.  

This is getting too long.  I'm afraid no one will reaqd this and respond, so let me cut to the chase.

I am attaching the error log file, Top Level_3.log.  Maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong.

I am also attaching (hopefully in a manner Claudio recommended) those 12 JPG files.  If someone (Claudio?) is willing to try to create a panorama with those 12 files and tell me what happens, I'll appreciate it.

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 8:12 PM Samuel Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok.  I "finished" the panorama.  There's a lot I could say, but since it's "finished", I'll just attach it.

 0_1.JPG

 30_1.JPG

 60_1.JPG

 90_1.JPG

 120_1.JPG

 150_1.JPG

 180_1.JPG

 210_1.JPG

 240_1.JPG

 270_1.JPG

 300_1.JPG

 330_1.JPG

 

 

[Samuel Rhoads]

Sorry Claudio, I didn't do that correctly.  Tring again.  Here's the zipped folder, I hope.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Trying once again!  Forgive an old stupid man, please.

 0_1 - 330_1 (2).zip

[Carl Ovenschotel]

I created such a panorama for Stellarium. Though in my case I had my camera in a field on a tripod which simplifies things a lot I suppose.

In the tab "Projection" you have to fill in Field of View 360 × 180, Equirectangular. That I know for sure.

Good luck!

This is my panorama of only 8 pictures without nadir. It looks weird but it's good enough for me:

[Samuel Rhoads]

Your panorama is similar to the one I created 12 years ago. Also from a fixed position for SkySafari. I’ll attach mine for comparison. 

Sam

On Jul 30, 2024, at 10:47 PM, Carl Ovenschotel <koga...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Why are you redoing it? What exactly are the points you need to improve?

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[JKEngineer]

I am commenting on your statement:   But this time I thought I'd use the original jpegs instead of the pngs.  I had gone into Photoshop and created the pngs thinking that would be better. 

If I understand what you did, and I might not, you took a jpg generated by the camera and processed it to a png in Photoshop because the jpg is lossy.  That will not improve the image.  What was lost by the jpg is gone, converting it just steps on the quality again. 

If you got the jpg from a raw image from the camera, then starting with the raw image to generate a lossless version would improve quality, but possibly at the cost of a larger file size. 

[Samuel Rhoads]

Yes. I want a sharper picture. The one I “finished” wasn’t sharp enough. When you compare it the the previous panorama you can see the difference. I’m not worried about file size as long as it looks sharp when I zoom in. 

Sam

On Jul 31, 2024, at 2:59 AM, 'JKEngineer' via hugin and other free panoramic software <hugi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I am commenting on your statement:   But this time I thought I'd use the original jpegs instead of the pngs.  I had gone into Photoshop and created the pngs thinking that would be better. 

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[Samuel Rhoads]

After I thought I was done, I realized that the panorama looked very ugly when I zoom in.  But even though I did it all over again I couldn’t get a panorama. The log shows the error messages that I don’t understand. 

Sam

On Jul 30, 2024, at 11:43 PM, Frédéric Da Vitoria <davi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Sam Rhoads]

To be clear, I am hoping that someone in the community will take the 12 images in this zip file and try to create a panorama using Hugin.  When I do that, I get strange error messages that I do not understand. The resulting panorama won’t be satisfactory for SkySafari, but at least I’ll find out what’s causing the errors.

Sam.

On Jul 30, 2024, at 4:16 PM, Samuel Rhoads <samr...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Carl Ovenschotel]

I tried to make a panorama of your photos but I failed. After years of using Hugin I still don't know what I'm doing. Maybe someone else can give it a go.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Thanks for trying. I also don’t know what I’m doing. Makes me wonder how people learn how to use it. 

I hope someone will give it a successful go. 

Sam

On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Carl Ovenschotel <koga...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried to make a panorama of your photos but I failed. After years of using Hugin I still don't know what I'm doing. Maybe someone else can give it a go.

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[Sam Rhoads]

Carl:  Can you tell me a little about your experience?  Did Hugin tell you that it couldn’t find any CPs for 120_1 & 150_1?  Did the Optimizer tab appear?  Did the stitcher report that some images didn’t belong to the set?

Sam.

On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:31 PM, Carl Ovenschotel <koga...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried to make a panorama of your photos but I failed. After years of using Hugin I still don't know what I'm doing. Maybe someone else can give it a go.

[Carl Ovenschotel]

Indeed it couldn't find points for those images.

The Optimizer tab pops up when you have Optimize \ Geometric \ Custom Parameters selected.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Thanks Carl. Any idea why the optimizer tab only shows up then?  I spent hours trying to get the optimizer tab to appear  There are so many things that I just do not understand. I don’t understand how people learn all these options. 

Sam

On Aug 1, 2024, at 11:25 AM, Carl Ovenschotel <koga...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Gnome Nomad]

When I tried the Hugin Assistant, it found control points on all of them. I don't know anything about using Translation. I did eventually get sort-of straight horizon but only after removing two images that were mostly building foundations that had no horizon as part of them.

--
David W. Jones
gnome...@gmail.com
exploring the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com

Sent from my Android device.

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[Sam Rhoads]

David:  That’s confusing.  The 12 images: 0_1 through 330_1, all have either the ocean or mountains on the horizon.  Did you use the zip file that had all 12 images?  If some of those 12 images were removed, the panorama wouldn’t have been complete?

Sam.

On Aug 1, 2024, at 11:48 AM, Gnome Nomad <gnome...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[David W. Jones]

Yes, I used your zip file, the one in the link below. It doesn't have 12 images in it, it has 14.

These two images don't have any mountains or ocean in them: 120_3.jpg and 210_3.jpg. The 210_3 image has a part of the same beach that's already covered in the 210_1 image.

I think the *_3 images aren't needed, and apparently you removed them from some other zip file you uploaded to Google Drive?

I've never made a 360-deg panorama, so I got a 180-degree partial one.

-- 
David W. Jones
gnome...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com
My password is the last 8 digits of π.

[Samuel Rhoads]

I screwed up.  I was pretty sure I had only included the *_1 files, but I see that I did include two _3 files by mistake.  Sorry 'bout that!

But the 12 _1 files: 0_1, 30_1, 60_1 ...,  should make a 360 degree pan.

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[David W. Jones]

No problem.

I've never made a 360-deg pano. I don't know how to make one at all. So I might simply not be doing it right in the first place. But the second time I tried, I got a 360-deg panorama from it.

[Samuel Rhoads]

Great David.  Please attach it.  I'd like to see it.

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[Samuel Rhoads]

Great David.  Please attach your panorama.  I really want to see it.  I will probably have lots of questions.

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[Sam Rhoads]

That’s great to hear.  I am very curious about what you did that I couldn’t.  But first please attach your panorama se we all can see it.

(BTW, I just acquired a new MacBook Pro and am trying to set it up, so please forgive strange emails until I get everything set up.)

Sam.

On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:14 PM, David W. Jones <gnome...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

[David W. Jones]

On that panorama, I selected the images in my file manager and ran Hugin's Generate PTO tool. I use Linux, I don't know if Windows has that capability.

Then I went to the panorama preview, clicked on the Assistant button, then clicked on the align button, and got a 360-deg panorama.

I think if you open the PTO in Hugin, you should get the same pano. Hugin may tell you that alignment or control points have changed, or something like that, but I think that's something you can ignore.

I think I added some points manually, because there were a couple of image pairs that didn't have any control points.

Adding horizontal lines to the images that have horizons, then running Align again, should level the images in the panorama. I didn't try that in the PTO file I sent. It improved things quite a bit in my first try at the panorama, but that one only gave me a 180-deg panorama.

I have a TIFF image of it, if you're interested. It comes to 2274x3494 (not cropped), 189MB. On the left end is one image, then a black area that shades into the next image. I have no idea what caused that.

Enjoy your dinner!

On 8/1/24 18:48, Sam Rhoads wrote:

Thanks David.  When my panorama was in that shape, I spent a lot of time with Photoshop “fixing” things.  But my real question is whether this one will be “sharper” than the one I produced.  Do you think if I open that pto file in Hugin I’ll get the same panorama?  I’ll try that in a while.  Did you create a tiff image?  Right now I have to go buy dinner.

Did you let Hugin find control points?  Did you add any manually?

More questions later.

Sam.

On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:37 PM, David W. Jones <gnome...@gmail.com> wrote:



I didn't use any horizontal lines in this one. They would have helped fix the wavy horizon.

Attaching a screen shot and the PTO file that produced it. Neither of them came out as straight as the original one you produced.

On 8/1/24 18:27, Samuel Rhoads wrote:

Great David.  Please attach it.  I'd like to see it.

<Screenshot_2024-08-01_18-32-21.png>

<0_1-330_1.pto>

[Sam Rhoads]

Thanks again David.  I will open that PTO file tomorrow and let you know whether or not I would like you to send me that 189 MB file.

Of possible interest to everyone, I got a MacBook Pro today and will try using Hugin and my images with it, and tell everyone later what happens.  

Had sushi for dinner.

Sam.

On Aug 1, 2024, at 8:10 PM, David W. Jones <gnome...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

I tried it too. I did everything manually, I never use the assistant. Here is how I proceeded:

1. I let Hugin Create control points
2. I optimized using following steps (checking at each step that standard deviation was improving):
1. Positions (incremental, starting from anchor)
2. Positions and translation
3. Positions, translation and view
4. Positions, translation and barrel
5. Positions, translation, view and barrel
3. I previewed the results: things were completely off.
4. I deleted a few control points which were obviously on reflections, as well as control points which could not work (for example a control point on the sea horizon or on moving objects such as cars, beware of boats, some moored boats are actually moving slightly)
   
5. I added a few vertical lines and a few horizontal lines
6. I reset all images and ran point 3 again: better, but some buildings were still skewed and some image borders did not match enough to my taste
   
7. I added control points on faraway points (characteristic points on the mountains, faraway buildings...) and removed "duplicated" control points (control points placed by Hugin which were so close together that I couldn't see both numbers at the same time)
   
8. I reset all and ran point 3 again: definitely better
9. I removed all automatically generated control points which were between 2 other close control points. I deliberately removed more aggressively control points close (to the camera) than remote control points, trying to give more weight to the far image. The reasoning here is that parallax errors will be very frequent because the camera was moved a lot; because of this, matching both close objects and distant objects at the same time is impossible, I choose first if I prefer my images to match in close objects or in distant objects. Because of your use case, I decided that matching the horizon was preferable.
10. I reset all and ran point 3 again: what I saw seemed good, except that at some point I stopped seing the seaward part (and I did not notice it was missing). Actually, images 4, 5 & 6 are there, but they are seen from the side. I attach this version as 0_1 - 330_1 - v1.pto
    
11. In an attempt to fix things, I tried to add vertical and horizontal lines in images where they were missing and to add control points between images 8 & 9, but results were close to the previous one.
12. So I decided to change strategy: I removed all control points on buildings, keeping only control points on the ground.
13. Because I had eliminated the buildings from the problem, I reasoned that translation was maybe not a useful parameter and I optimized using following steps (checking at each step that standard deviation was improving):
1. Positions (incremental, starting from anchor)
2. Positions and view
3. Positions, translation and view
4. Positions and barrel distorsion (standard deviation was worse here so that I did not apply this step)
   
5. Positions, view and barrel
6. Everything without distorsion. I repeated this last step until standard deviation stopped improving.
14. The result seems pretty good IMO (0_1 - 330_1 - v2.pto)

Here is what I would do now: I would have generated the panorama using the option "Normal panorama with layered TIFF output", loaded the result in Gimp or a similar tool and worked with layers and masks in order to keep from each image the best ground level and get straight-looking buildings.

I suggest taking intermediate photos:

- between 5 & 6 (not enough overlap), 

- and between 6 & 7, and 7 & 8 to try to create more control points there (because it is impossible to put control points close to the horizon on those). 

Also, maybe taking more than one picture from each place (like you did with 0 & 1 and 3 & 4) would improve the end result. At least it would give you more options in the final Gimp step.

I hope I was clear enough in my explanations.

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[Sam Rhoads]

Frederic: wow! thanks!  This is a lot of help, and I appreciate it.  I was about to give it up.  But based on your recommendation, I am thinking I’ll go back up and take another series of photos.  I have been reluctant to try to take just a few to “fill in” since the light will be very different from day to day.  But today the sky looks pretty clear of clouds over the mountains so might try again.  And, I’m thinking I’ll use my iPhone rather than my Nikon 2.  With a selfie stick I can hold it out and get a shot from the horizon down to near the nadir.  In that way I won’t need to take four photos from each position.  It seems that Hugin has trouble stitching together photos that are adjacent to each other up and down, right and left, AND from different positions.  (Of course it still could be just me!). 

Question: When having to change places by moving around the rooftop, is a lot of overlap and a lot of images better than less overlap and fewer images?  

Question: When using the MacBook Pro, the image in the center window on the screen after stitching is tiny, and I cannot seem to enlarge it.  Is there a way to “zoom in”?

Sam.

On Aug 4, 2024, at 5:00 AM, Frédéric Da Vitoria <davi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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<0_1 - 330_1 - v1.pto>

<0_1 - 330_1 - v2.pto>

[Frédéric Da Vitoria]

Le 04/08/2024 à 22:00, Sam Rhoads a écrit :

Frederic: wow! thanks!  This is a lot of help, and I appreciate it.  I was about to give it up.  But based on your recommendation, I am thinking I’ll go back up and take another series of photos.  I have been reluctant to try to take just a few to “fill in” since the light will be very different from day to day.  But today the sky looks pretty clear of clouds over the mountains so might try again.  And, I’m thinking I’ll use my iPhone rather than my Nikon 2.  With a selfie stick I can hold it out and get a shot from the horizon down to near the nadir.  In that way I won’t need to take four photos from each position.  It seems that Hugin has trouble stitching together photos that are adjacent to each other up and down, right and left, AND from different positions.  (Of course it still could be just me!).

In any case, I think you should ensure that you have a picture where each important nearby tower is centered or at least close to the center. This could make things easier in the post-Hugin (Gimp?) stage. If an important tower was only close to image edges, it could be more difficult to get a good final result. Your first set of images was correct in this regard.

Question: When having to change places by moving around the rooftop, is a lot of overlap and a lot of images better than less overlap and fewer images? 

I never did tests, but if you mean a lot of very overlapping small images and fewer less overlapping large images, I would think intuitively that large images are better. But more overlap is also better. It makes sense : in a panorama like yours, you need at least two points between each pair of images (of course, the stitch will be better if those 2 points are more vertically distant). OTOH, with only 2 points for each image pair, Hugin has no way to determine lens parameters such as barrel distorsion. So my guess (I definitely don't remember enough geometry to prove what I am saying) is that you need 4 points, maybe 6, set in 2 columns of 3 points. And again, calculations will be more exact if the 2 columns are more distant, which means more overlap.

If you look at my last PTO, you'll see that I kept control points as widely separated as possible. Actually, when a panorama proves difficult, I sometimes erase all points and start with 4 or 6 control points for each image pair, preview the resulting panorama, and add some more control points for image pairs which Hugin can't make match correctly.

Question: When using the MacBook Pro, the image in the center window on the screen after stitching is tiny, and I cannot seem to enlarge it.  Is there a way to “zoom in”?

You mean in the Fast panorama preview? You can use the right and bottom slider.

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A list of frequently asked questions is available at: http://wiki.panotools.org/Hugin_FAQ
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[Samuel Rhoads]

Frederick:

Yes, I'm trying to see what the panorama looks like, but what I see is very very small, especially on a laptop.  I tried the sliders but they never made it bigger.  I did a few screenshots to show what happens, they're attached.  The preview of the panorama is so small that I cannot do anything woityh it.  I've tried everything I can think of to make it bigger.

Greg:

This is my first email (using Edge) from the laptop.  Is it straight test or does it have an HTML problem?

[David W. Jones]

Try click the Move button, then use Center or Fit (I forget which).

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David W. Jones
gnome...@gmail.com
exploring the landscape of god
http://dancingtreefrog.com

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[Samuel Rhoads]

I tried those things but nothing helps.  I'm about to decide that my copy of Hugin is buggy.  Don't know how that can be, but ...