Canon 7D or SONY Alpha 850 - which one would you buy?
Yuval Levy
This time I *must* upgrade my kit. It's a requirement for a job I landed
and the budget pays for it. HDR, partial panoramas, long focal distance.
I currently use a Canon 350D. From the pre-digital era I am a long time
Minolta user and have some good glass, flash, accessories.
In the meantime Minolta sold to SONY and the Alpha 850 seems a nice
proposition (with reservation about the brand. The memory stick stuff is
pathetic).
My 350D kit was used mainly for the production of web-based material,
particularly full spherical panoramas (7000x3500). It's still the old
Sigma 8mm F/4, complemented with very cheap Sigma APS-C lenses just to
have something in the range up to 200mm for the occasional use (and with
Hugin I can nicely correct them to perfect rectilinear).
Besides the specific job, my interests have shifted to higher
resolutions (large prints) and partial multi-row panoramas for large
prints, so I will want better glass than I have now in the range of
20mm-200mm. I still do web-based full sphericals occasionally and if I
had to change something for that application it would rather be the lens
than the camera body.
From my starting point I'd have to shell out more money on the Canon to
reach the same quality of glass as on the SONY (and if I did, I could as
well go 5D MkII?) - and that extra money is not in the budget. The body
(including 5D MkII if I wanted) is.
What I like about the 7D is 8FPS continuous mode and 1.0x viewfinder
magnification.
The a850 has only 3FPS (but is full frame, and the a900, which I also
could still get through the budget, has 5FPS which is better than the 5D
MkII).
What worries me a little about the a850 (and a900) is the noise at high
ISO (compared to the 5D MkII). But isn't that an even bigger problem for
the 7D (with 18mpx crammed on an APS-C sensor)? Anybody has some
experience in low light with the SONYs?
Exposure Bracketing seems to be a weakness of both contenders. I had
considered a Pentax K-7, but that would be a completely new system with
plenty of components to buy right from the start, not just the body. And
there would be other brands and models to consider too. I am open for
suggestions.
Has anybody made any experience with SONY Alpha 550 and its HDR mode?
but anyway, it is not present on the a850 (nor on the a950).
Which brings me back to the original choice: Canon 7D or SONY Alpha 850?
Yuv
Don Holeman
RueiKe
heard that the Canons have only a max of 3 steps, but maybe this is
only consumer level. The Nikons support 3, 5, 7, and 9 steps at a max
increment of 1EV, while I heard that Pentax supports 2EV increments,
but only 3 steps. Have you considered the Nikon D3 (or D700)? It has
excellent high ISO noise performance and prices have really come down.
Next question would be what is the best lens for high resolution
panos? I am using the Voigtlander 20mm Color Skopar almost
exclusively now. Very compact and great CA performance.
Regards,
Rick
Tim Nugent
If you're on a cropped sensor I'd say the logical upgrade is to full frame, particularly as you'll get a lot more width for shooting panos, so 5Dmark2 or D700 (although a D700x/s is rumoured). Too help fund it you could also sell your video camera and just use the SLR for movies too.
Tim
Yuval Levy
> Maybe you should also ask at
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon_EOS_dSLR/
I would assume such a group to have, on average, a biased opinion and I
am not looking for fan answers. Actually the best feedback I got so far
is from Nikon users :)
My approach is applications-oriented, not brand oriented. The brand put
some limits on me based on my prior investment in the gear from the
brand, but as I stated, I am open for other brands as well if they make
sense (and Pentax is difficult to ignore, but the budget becomes an
issue as I would start from scratch).
Yuv
Yuval Levy
> What do you need the high FPS for Yuv?
fast moving subjects. action!
> If you're on a cropped sensor I'd say the logical upgrade is to full frame
not necessarily. for spherical panoramas FF has less angular resolution
at equal megapixel count.
that said, full frame is very attractive to me, coming from the 35mm
film background, I miss the shallow depth of field effect, e.g. in
portraits.
> sell your video camera and just use the SLR for movies too.
not yet. the current crop of SLRs are no good for movie making. They
need a tiltable LCD display first.
Yuv
Yuval Levy
RueiKe wrote:
> What type of bracketing capabilities do the A850D and the 7D have?
the usual, plain, boring -2/0/+2 AEB. there are, of course, workarounds,
but I am really fed up of camera manufacturers not understanding such a
basic need and implementing such a simple function as
for a= -x to +x
shoot a picture
increase the exposure value
a=a+y
next
and let the user define x and y through the UI.
x=2 and y=2 is what Canon does.
x=6 and y=2 is what I'd like to do in many cases.
> heard that the Canons have only a max of 3 steps, but maybe this is
> only consumer level.
no, it's overall. I would call it engineer's deafness.
> The Nikons support 3, 5, 7, and 9 steps at a max
> increment of 1EV, while I heard that Pentax supports 2EV increments,
the 1EV steps is what disturbs me with Nikon. creates a lot of
unnecessary junk. so they fixed y at 1.
Pentax has IMO the so far best implementation, but is also limited
(reduced x range).
> Have you considered the Nikon D3 (or D700)? It has
> excellent high ISO noise performance and prices have really come down.
I've looked at Nikon too, yes. I have "good" (as in: similar to Canon;
and not as in: how I would expect a customer-centric business to
operate) experience with the brand (I own a Nikonos V with plenty of
accessories). I end up coming back to the Canon or SONY choice because I
already have lenses and moving to Nikon, Pentax, or any other contender
would break the budget. I am not inclined to "top up" at this point.
> Next question would be what is the best lens for high resolution
> panos? I am using the Voigtlander 20mm Color Skopar almost
> exclusively now. Very compact and great CA performance.
indeed the question of the lens comes even before the body.
If this was "web resolution full spherical", I would not consider a full
frame sensor; and I would consider the 7D to be an overkill (no need for
such a great viewfinder; and 18mpx on an APS-C is overkill for the
softness of the current generation of fisheye lenses).
For this specific work I'll be shooting in the 100mm to 200mm range -
"pano" being a synonymous with composite or mosaic more than with wide
field of view. And my good old Minolta AF 100-300mm F4.5-5.6 (APO D)
fits the bill. The SONY body would add stabilization to it. Adding a
comparable lens to a Canon or Nikon system would set me back of more
than 1000$.
I could justify the 1000$ on a Canon lens coupled with the 7D because
the 7D fits in my existing system. The project's budget itself justifies
the body only, which in the case of the Alpha 850 would give me the
option to resell it with my good Minolta glasses and accessories after
the project ended if I did not like them for whatever reason.
What entices me is a full frame sensor - because of the increased depth
of field control. I've recently allowed myself the luxury of exposing a
35mm film and it feels so gooooooood. But going full frame on Canon is
not really an option at this moment; and even less Nikon.
Yuv
D M German
Yuval> I would assume such a group to have, on average, a biased opinion and I
Yuval> am not looking for fan answers. Actually the best feedback I got so far
Yuval> is from Nikon users :)
Hi Yuv,
Most of use are biased... because we don't use both cameras most of the
time.
I personally like Canon lenses. They are superb, and long term
investments. My EF 85 1.8, my second Canon lens, still makes amazing
photos 15 years later (I know, I know, some people use older lenses, but
that is my point: lenses are long term investment). Of course, what
lenses you get depends on your budget. Canon does not make many cheap
great lenses (one the EF 50 1.8 mkII, which should be owned by anybody
who does not have a more expensive 50mm). Look at the innovation in the
new TS-E lenses, or the new 100 macro coming out soon.
That does not mean I like Canon per-se. They hold technology to maximize
their return.
By the way, the 1ds3 is capable of doing 7 brackets at once, I
think.
I personally think the differences in sensors are there, but they are
usually small compared to other "tangibles", such as lenses you have,
your shooting style, and how comfortable you feel with each camera.
After all, most of the photos we make could be equally be recorded with
any of the sensors in the 1.6 or full frame SLR cameras in the
market. What matters more often is you can control the camera to make
the shot before it vanishes.
--
Daniel M. German
http://turingmachine.org/
http://silvernegative.com/
dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca
replace (at) with @ and (dot) with .
RueiKe
Definitely disappointing that camera manufacturers still have not
caught on to increased dynamic range work yet. Even external camera
control software, which should have a lot more flexibility, doesn't
address the need (at least for Nikon).
Another aspect of bracketing that would be a factor for me would be
the ability to lock up the mirror for an entire bracket series. Is it
really necessary to meter between brackets, especially in manual
mode? Is there some other technical limitation for this?
Rick
dmg
> caught on to increased dynamic range work yet. Even external camera
> control software, which should have a lot more flexibility, doesn't
> address the need (at least for Nikon).
>
> Another aspect of bracketing that would be a factor for me would be
> the ability to lock up the mirror for an entire bracket series. Is it
> really necessary to meter between brackets, especially in manual
> mode? Is there some other technical limitation for this?
the 5dII does this when you enable live view.
--
--dmg
---
Daniel M. German
http://turingmachine.org
J. Schneider
> (reduced x range).
Joachim
RueiKe
I just tried Live View on the D3. No impact on the mirror lock up.
Too bad. At high speed, it can induce significant camera shake.
Rick
RizThon
fast moving subjects. action!
Tim Nugent wrote:
> What do you need the high FPS for Yuv?
I can shoot at 3 img/s, and indeed in some cases I might want to shoot a little bit faster, when shooting sport events...
that said, full frame is very attractive to me, coming from the 35mm
film background, I miss the shallow depth of field effect, e.g. in
portraits.
RizThon
dmg
>
> I don't understand why using a FF you'll have a better shallow depth of
> field effet? I have a 50mm 1.4 (but a 1.8 would already be enough) and it
> gives me great portrait...honestly, I just *love* that lens, and I can
> always at once tell the difference from a picture taken with it compared to
> a picture taken with my 18-135 3.5-5.6 lens kit.
FF does give you more blur than cropped bodies, assuming the same
image has been covered with both lenses (i.e. you are closer to the
subject with the FF than with the cropped sensor body).
Assuming the same lens is used, and the same circle of confusion,
the depth of field decreases when you decrease the distance to the
plan in focus.
If you photograph the same plane with the two bodies, using the same
lens, the depth of field is identical, but you have a smaller coverage
with the cropped-sensor body.
And yes, except for a blind person, anybody will recognize that
difference, even of photos at the same aperture because
colour rendition, sharpness and contrast. Try it.
dmg
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> I just tried Live View on the D3. No impact on the mirror lock up.
> Too bad. At high speed, it can induce significant camera shake.
>
> Rick
>
I can confirm that the 1ds3 brackets up to 7 shots, from 1/3 to up to
3 stops distance each.
Also, I confirm that the 5D2, 40D and 1ds3 all shoot without moving
the mirror when in liveView.
Keep in mind, the shutter still releases, hence the noise. But it is
not the mirror moving.
But in normal mode (viewfinder) the mirror moves with every shot.
RueiKe
mode, I can see the mirror moving for each photo when in CH and
bracket mode. I will raise this question in the D3 flickr group to
see if there is another approach.
On Sep 27, 3:31 pm, dmg <d...@uvic.ca> wrote:
Yuval Levy
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 04:21, Yuval Levy <goo...@levy.ch> wrote:
>
>> Tim Nugent wrote:
>>> What do you need the high FPS for Yuv?
>> fast moving subjects. action!
>>
> So that wouldn't really be for taking panoramas I guess ^^
well, not only panoramas. one thing I found interesting in the replies
to my question on different lists is what preconceived notions are
attached to the term panorama.
on one list it was the single-shot panorama vs. stitched panorama (and
the recommendation was: go full frame to use the whole field of view of
the wide lenses);
on another list it was panorama = full spherical with fisheye lenses and
the least possible number of shots to stitch (and the recommendation was
against the SONY because popular fisheyes such as the Tokina ATX or
Sigma 8mm are not available in Alpha mount);
the project I'm hired for leaves me a lot of room for creativity and one
of the things I'll have is action inside a panorama ( = stitched high
resolution mosaic).
> Also be carefull,
> sometimes it's written something like "7 images per seconds *" and when you
> look at the "*" it says that you need the grip with the additional
> batteries
I never trust marketing-speak, thank you for the warning :)
> I don't understand why using a FF you'll have a better shallow depth of
> field effet?
Daniel gave the perfect answer.
Yuv
Yuval Levy
RueiKe wrote:
> Even external camera
> control software, which should have a lot more flexibility, doesn't
> address the need (at least for Nikon).
what external camera control software do you use, and what are you missing?
> Another aspect of bracketing that would be a factor for me would be
> the ability to lock up the mirror for an entire bracket series. Is it
> really necessary to meter between brackets, especially in manual
> mode? Is there some other technical limitation for this?
I don't know, but I hardly can imagine any. I've been wondering for a
few years when will some smart manufacturer come out with a smart sensor
that can be sampled multiple time during the exposure.
So you just set your camera to the longest exposure needed. The camera
would lift the mirror / curtain and start the exposure. The sensor would
be sampled at regular intervals and from the moment meaningful
information is available (i.e. the sample is not all black) the pixel
data would be stored in a buffer. So the camera would sample/store at
say 1/8000; 1/4000; 1/2000; 1/1000; 1/500; 1/250 during the one single
exposure. Then the curtain goes down and processing of the automatically
produced bracket (5 exposures) start.
The whole bracket captured in the time of a single exposure. Imagine the
positive effect on ghosting.
I learned on the NG list today that somebody successfully hacked the
Canon 5D MkII
<http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki>
maybe I should reconsider my choice in light of that...
although the primary criteria still is *glass*
Yuv
Tim Nugent
> sell your video camera and just use the SLR for movies too.not yet. the current crop of SLRs are no good for movie making. They
need a tiltable LCD display first.
Check this out, I'd say SLRs are now good enough for making movies:
http://www.vimeo.com/6501875
And of course you can use all your favourite lenses and do amazing things with depth of field. You can get video lenses that do all that but it would cost you an absolute fortune..
Tim
Yuval Levy
> Check this out, I'd say SLRs are now good enough for making movies:
>
> http://www.vimeo.com/6501875
>
> And of course you can use all your favourite lenses and do amazing things
> with depth of field. You can get video lenses that do all that but it would
> cost you an absolute fortune..
I don't doubt the quality of the video shot with SLRs. It's much better
than the quality shot with camcorders. The sensor is larger and has much
less noise. The lenses are better. All of this I know.
What I notice looking at the beautiful movie you linked is that most of
the shots are either not spontaneous; or if they are the camera is held
like a DSLR and not like a camcorder. Many of the shots look as if the
photographer (not videographer) was waiting to capture a specific moment.
Try following a crawling toddler with a DSLR, and try it with a camcorder.
With the camcorder I tilt the screen up 90°. I hold the camcorder from
the top. I stretch my hand down so that the camcorder hovers at my son's
level. I can still walk in a relatively steady motion, next to the
camcorder. I can check my framing.
With a DSLR I must put my eye behind the camera to check my framing. I
would have to put my eyes close to ground level. I could not walk and
keep a more or less steady motion. Sure, I could put the DSLR on a dolly
(tripod with wheels) at the right level. But it is not something I have
handy everywhere for spontaneous shots.
Also: my wife is intimidated by the 350D - and would probably be by the
7D too. She has no problems hitting the record and stop buttons on the
camcorder. It's a great family gadget.
Yes, I love the quality of the video afforded by the 7D (or the 5D
MkII). Some of the effects I can't do with the camcorder. The focus
control in the movie you linked is amazing. I could do some neat stuff
with it. But it is no replacement for a camcorder to me. It would be a
nice complement.
If I had unlimited resources I'd buy a 5D MkII (or a 7D) and a couple of
good lenses. I made the decision to buy the camcorder when the 5D MkII
was announced and the video specs were known. It's a conscious decision
that I do not regret.
Yuv
Andreas Metzler
>> sell your video camera and just use the SLR for movies too.
> not yet. the current crop of SLRs are no good for movie making. They
> need a tiltable LCD display first.
... which currently seems to reduce the selection to the Lumix GH1.
(Yes, I know I should not call it SLR since there is no mirror. ;-)
cu andreas
--
`What a good friend you are to him, Dr. Maturin. His other friends are
so grateful to you.'
`I sew his ears on from time to time, sure'
Yuval Levy
>> not yet. the current crop of SLRs are no good for movie making. They
>> need a tiltable LCD display first.
>
> ... which currently seems to reduce the selection to the Lumix GH1.
> (Yes, I know I should not call it SLR since there is no mirror. ;-)
great camera. yes, the whole concept of SLR is becoming blurred. looking
through a mirror / pentaprism and / or through a well constructed "live
view" may no longer be much of a difference?
what this camera does share with DSLRs, and what still will be
important, is the ability to change lenses. And this one is in Micro
Four Thirds standard.
good stuff, thank you for making me aware of it.
Yuv
David Haberthür
On 27.09.2009, at 00:37, RueiKe wrote:
> Definitely disappointing that camera manufacturers still have not
> caught on to increased dynamic range work yet. Even external camera
> control software, which should have a lot more flexibility, doesn't
> address the need (at least for Nikon).
>
[snip]
I don't know what your setup is, but if you own a Mac, you should
definitely take a look at Sofortbild.app (http://
www.sofortbildapp.com/), which makes for quite an impressive camera
control software, considered it's free...
Cheers from Switzerland
Habi
Milan Knížek
> What I notice looking at the beautiful movie you linked is that most of
> the shots are either not spontaneous; or if they are the camera is held
> like a DSLR and not like a camcorder. Many of the shots look as if the
> photographer (not videographer) was waiting to capture a specific moment.
This is a correct point where many users of 5D MII agree and what the
marketing speech obviously "forgot" to mention: if one wants to shoot
video as one does with a hand-held camcorder, this camera is not a good
alternative and many point-and-shoot cameras would do better (not in
terms of quality but usability).
The biggest problems are:
x impossibility to use continuous AF
x impractical use of Live View AF during recording (focusing back and
forth takes time and image gets blurred - depending on the lens, of
course)
x need for an external microphone (the built in one records everything
one does on the camera - manual focus, AF, stabilisation, etc..)
x difficult manual focusing due to small and non-tiltable LCD (HD video
has bigger resolution then the LCD and with shallow DOF focusing becomes
critical)
x difficult to keep the camera steady during manual focusing or zooming
regards,
Milan Knizek
knizek (dot) confy (at) volny (dot) cz
http://www.milan-knizek.net - About linux and photography (Czech
language only)
Yuval Levy
> The biggest problems are:
excellent analysis. it seems that the Magic Lantern firmware for 5DMkII
(and soon 7D) is trying to correct some of the software mistakes. For
the hardware ones we can only hope that the manufacturers move faster
along the learning curve.
Yuv
allard
My views on the subject:
-All the modern DSLRs are very good compared to what was around only a
few years ago, let alone a decade ago. If you spend a bit of time
thinking about your choice (as it seems you are), it's hard to make a
bad one.
-A good body is not much use if you don't have good glass for it. Less
than the other way around.
-High-speed action and high-resolution HDR stitched panoramas are very
different things. It will be difficult to find a camera that is best
at both.
-Based on samples I have seen on a number of websites despite the
large pixel count the high iso performance of the 7D is very good for
a crop body (not as good as a 5DII but much better even in per-pixel
noise than my 40D). What I recall from reviews I read about the Sony
is that it is not the best full frame when it comes to noise. Probably
there is not a huge difference between the two when it comes to noise.
Definitely either of them will be a big step up from the 350D.
-Since you have good glass for the Sony system it makes sense to get
that body. It's a pretty good deal for a full frame and from your
posts I gather you appreciate the advantages of larger sensors.
-I would choose a 5DII plus a set of good Canon glass over a Sony
system if starting from scratch and on a large budget but not in the
situation you are in (as far as I have been able to judge that).
cheers, allard