Odd Letter From Saturn of Huntsville
O.B.
this is their way of avoiding a recall or just a scam to get us into more
debt. Here's the letter:
Saturn of Huntsville has been designated as a site to conduct a special
market test pricing and financing event. Your status as a Saturn of
Huntsville customer qualifies you for this private sale.
We are in desperate need to acquire several pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2 by May
10, 2005 in order to fulfill special vehicle requests. You have been
identified as an owner of one of these vehicles and our new car managers
have been authorized to buy back your current vehicle at or above market prices.
We would like to exchange your 1994 Saturn SL2 for any new Saturn. With
factory incentives and high trade-in values, we feel confident that you can
make the exchange with little or no money down and a monthly payment that
fits your budget.
You must bring this letter for admittance to this event and present it to
the Sales Manager, Randy Brown, at Saturn of Huntsville.
Please stop by or call us at 1-256-837-7000 to schedule a convenient
appointment and allow us to the opportunity to make you an offer. A visual
inspection of your vehicle is required to offer you the highest possible price.
Due to the high demand for these vehicles, this event will not be advertised
to the general public. This will be your only notification.
Joe User
> On Sat, 07 May 2005 20:40:00 -0500, "O.B." <funk...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>We received an odd letter from Saturn of Huntsville and were wondering if
>>this is their way of avoiding a recall or just a scam to get us into more
>>debt. Here's the letter:
<snip>
> That's brilliant. It's an innovative approach to selling new cars.
I disagree. This is marketing bullshit. People who fall for this crap
should be neutered. People who think this stuff up should be branded on
the forehead with a big letter M (for marketer).
--
The average American attention span is
that of a ferret on a double espresso.
-- Dennis Miller,
Re: Americans watching television
Kodiak
"Joe User" <ax...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.05.08....@yahoo.com...
I routinely receive the same types of letters from Mazda, I'm sure it's
simply because I own a Mazda. It's just an upsell effort on their part.
DFF.
Bo Williams
> We received an odd letter from Saturn of Huntsville and were wondering
> if this is their way of avoiding a recall or just a scam to get us into
> more debt.
Neither.
> Here's the letter:
>
>
> Saturn of Huntsville has been designated as a site to conduct a special
> market test pricing and financing event. Your status as a Saturn of
> Huntsville customer qualifies you for this private sale.
Translation: We've already identified you once as someone who has the
ability to buy a car, so you can probably buy another one, so please
come do so.
> We are in desperate need to acquire several pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2 by
> May 10, 2005 in order to fulfill special vehicle requests.
"Special vehicle requests" is, I suppose, the most "questionable"
language in the letter. The obvious intent is for you to believe that
your current vehicle is in particularly high demand, so they'll do, oh
my gosh, just about anything to pry it from you.
(No 1994 Saturn is worth much.)
> You have
> been identified as an owner of one of these vehicles and our new car
> managers have been authorized to buy back your current vehicle at or
> above market prices.
"Market price" is whatever you agree to sell it for, is it not?
>
> We would like to exchange your 1994 Saturn SL2 for any new Saturn. With
> factory incentives and high trade-in values, we feel confident that you
> can make the exchange with little or no money down and a monthly payment
> that fits your budget.
>
> You must bring this letter for admittance to this event and present it
> to the Sales Manager, Randy Brown, at Saturn of Huntsville.
>
> Please stop by or call us at 1-256-837-7000 to schedule a convenient
> appointment and allow us to the opportunity to make you an offer. A
> visual inspection of your vehicle is required to offer you the highest
> possible price.
>
> Due to the high demand for these vehicles, this event will not be
> advertised to the general public. This will be your only notification.
Saturn of Huntsville wants to sell you a car. What else is new?
--
Bo Williams - will...@hiwaay.net
http://hiwaay.net/~williams/
Bo Williams
> On Sat, 07 May 2005 21:21:08 -0500, krh wrote:
>
>
>>On Sat, 07 May 2005 20:40:00 -0500, "O.B." <funk...@bellsouth.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>We received an odd letter from Saturn of Huntsville and were wondering if
>>>this is their way of avoiding a recall or just a scam to get us into more
>>>debt. Here's the letter:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>That's brilliant. It's an innovative approach to selling new cars.
>
>
> I disagree. This is marketing bullshit.
As much as any marketing is "bullshit," I suppose you're correct.
> People who fall for this crap
There's nothing to "fall for" that isn't there in any other advertising
or marketing. The letter is not dishonest.
> should be neutered.
Mm-hmm. You're 100% immune to marketing, I'm sure. You're much too
smart for it. Everybody is. Nobody ever once in his/her entire life
made a purchase of any kind using anything but rational analysis in
his/her decision. "Nah, that stuff doesn't work on me."
> People who think this stuff up should be branded on
> the forehead with a big letter M (for marketer).
People who think this stuff up have a critical role in our economy.
Vermyndax
> We received an odd letter from Saturn of Huntsville and were wondering
> if this is their way of avoiding a recall or just a scam to get us into
> more debt. Here's the letter:
[snip]
Aside from all of the chiding and unnecessary comments, I received the
same letter on my 1997 SL1. I took the car in for service a few days
later and the service department had signs posted wanting trade-ins on
these cars as well. With the amount of money I had to pay to get my
1997 fixed, I could've put a downpayment on a brand new car, but I've
sworn to never buy another Saturn ever... so... take that info and do
what you will with it.
--JM
Bo Williams
> Aside from all of the chiding and unnecessary comments,
What are you talking about? The OP has received neither.
> I received the
> same letter on my 1997 SL1. I took the car in for service a few days
> later and the service department had signs posted wanting trade-ins on
> these cars as well. With the amount of money I had to pay to get my
> 1997 fixed, I could've put a downpayment on a brand new car,
???
With the amount of money I spent on lunch yesterday, I could have put a
down payment on a brand new car. With the amount of money orbiting
Pluto, I could have put a down payment on a brand new car.
> but I've
> sworn to never buy another Saturn ever... so... take that info and do
> what you will with it.
Saturns are not horrible vehicles, but there are better choices.
Bob Wilson
> On Sun, 08 May 2005 07:05:13 -0500, Bo Williams <will...@hiwaay.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Joe User wrote:
> >> On Sat, 07 May 2005 21:21:08 -0500, krh wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Sat, 07 May 2005 20:40:00 -0500, "O.B." <funk...@bellsouth.net>
> >>>wrote:
. . .
> >> People who think this stuff up should be branded on
> >> the forehead with a big letter M (for marketer).
> >
> >People who think this stuff up have a critical role in our economy.
>
>
> <g> The Business section of Hsv Times today is a classic example and
> I wonder how many who think <advertisements> are bullshit but willing
> pay large sums of money because they think they're helping the
> environment and their pocketbooks?
Toyota in Huntsville had a 6 month backlog for the Prius when I checked
last year. So I signed up for their notification list. About six weeks
later, they called me and for an extra $2,000, would let me take a look
at the one that had 'just come in.'
> When gas prices surge, people
> flock to vehicles getting better mileage/gallon. It seems "...Demand
> is soaring for gas-electric Prius." vehicles today. Buyers are even
> paying $1000 above sticker price to get them.
The Times is reporting the obvious and my experience has been that the
premium is even higher.
> I wonder how many will
> rethink their investment after fuel prices moderate and they realize
> it will take them 20 years to break even over a vehicle that's holds
> more and more comfortable - probably when they have to replace the
> batteries which no doubt are as bad or worse to the environment than
> burning fuel directly in an automobile?
It is supply and demand at work and the supply of today's
hybrid-electrics remains short. Then I noticed the Ford Escape has:
"Battery, eCVT and DC/DC Converter Warranty These unique hybrid
components will be covered for 8 years/100,000 miles."
> When the oil embargo hit the United States, I thought about trading in
> my Chevy Suburban (12 mpg) for a vehicle getting 22 mpg. After
> running the numbers, I laughed and continued to pay the 67 cpg (twice
> normal).
In 1971, before the oil embargo, I had bought a '66 VW microbus, 28 mpg,
and ran it until 1975. In '72, pre-embargo, I drove it from Kansas to
California via Wisconsin including a 5 gal., pony gas can. When I got
down to about 1/4 tank, I'd check the local prices and if too high, in
the $.35/gal., I'd fill up from my pony tank and go another 150 miles to
looking for cheap gas. A Marine E-2, I didn't have a lot of money to
burn.
The microbus had a single bed with space under it for my sea bag, tools
and stuff. At altitude, it was sluggish but drafting behind trucks
worked just fine. With a Coleman stove, I'd pull into shopping centers,
make dinner or lunch and head on down the road. When I got sleepy, I'd
pull off the interstate, drive down a couple of section lines and pull
off to a quiet secondary road to take a nap. Every couple of days I'd
stay in a camper site with showers.
> I didn't worry about the cost anymore. If I commuted many
> miles per day, I would consider a Corolla or some similar vehicle.
In the DC area, commuting looks more like a 'parking lot' and is the
profile where hybrid electrics shine. The first Prius I saw running on
the streets was a medical delivery service in DC. They pickup samples to
take to labs and deliver medical supplies to doctors offices and the
hybrid-electric cycle made a lot of sense. The key is matching the
vehicle to the driving requirement.
In Huntsville, our 32 mpg Camry and Echo still make a lot of sense. Sure
I have to put about $20 every other week. It doesn't take long and with
flexible work hours, I can avoid the I-565 on-ramp backup.
Bob Wilson
David Kelly
Bo Williams <will...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> > We are in desperate need to acquire several pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2 by
> > May 10, 2005 in order to fulfill special vehicle requests.
>
> "Special vehicle requests" is, I suppose, the most "questionable"
> language in the letter. The obvious intent is for you to believe that
> your current vehicle is in particularly high demand, so they'll do, oh
> my gosh, just about anything to pry it from you.
Got a similar letter from Bentley GMC stating they had "special vehicle
requests" for my 2001 Sonoma. Possibly unique because it was the very
bottom of the bottom of the GMC line. Being a student of the product
before my purchase the only options it has is the long bed and a combo
radio/cassette player with clock. 4 cylinder, 5 speed. So it might be
possible that there is a special market for this truck. *I* certainly
hunted for it before purchase.
For amusement I visited the dealer just to see if they wanted to pay
more for my truck than I thought it was worth. They didn't have a single
truck on the lot with an 88" bed, not even the "full sized" trucks. If
it can't haul two dirtbikes with the tailgate up then its worth much
less to me. They didn't want my truck badly enough to beg.
After what I saw of new offerings I wasn't in any mood to trade even. I
have a Line-X lining and amateur radio is installed very nicely with a
hole in the roof for the antenna. And I get an honest 25+ MPG hauling
two adults, two dirtbikes, and a day's worth of food and gear, with the
A/C running. 27 without.
O.B.
> Vermyndax wrote:
>>but I've
>>sworn to never buy another Saturn ever... so... take that info and do
>>what you will with it.
>
> Saturns are not horrible vehicles, but there are better choices.
My 1994 SL2 was a nightmare. There was a horrible problem with the vehicle
shaking (missing perhaps?) at speeds under 45 mph. The dealer charged me
hundreds of dollars but never fixed the problem. I was a sucker. There's a
reason that Consumer Reports no longer ranks Saturn as a "CR Best Buy".
However, the one good thing is that my wife totaled it a couple years ago.
She came out only with a few scratches and 3 months of visits to the
chiropractor. The groceries in the back seat were pureed; if anyone had
been sitting in the back seat, they would have been killed.
Here's some pictures of the aftermath:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/a/dafunks/20021206_SaturnWreck/
Bo Williams
> Got a similar letter from Bentley GMC stating they had "special vehicle
> requests" for my 2001 Sonoma. Possibly unique because it was the very
> bottom of the bottom of the GMC line. Being a student of the product
> before my purchase the only options it has is the long bed and a combo
> radio/cassette player with clock. 4 cylinder, 5 speed. So it might be
> possible that there is a special market for this truck. *I* certainly
> hunted for it before purchase.
>
> For amusement I visited the dealer just to see if they wanted to pay
> more for my truck than I thought it was worth. They didn't have a single
> truck on the lot with an 88" bed, not even the "full sized" trucks. If
> it can't haul two dirtbikes with the tailgate up then its worth much
> less to me. They didn't want my truck badly enough to beg.
[...]
Exactly. "Special vehicle requests" in this context means, roughly,
"we've got to sell some cars, so we're specially requesting your vehicle
as a trade-in." The prospect "fills in the blanks" thinking "oh wow,
they've got people lined up to buy my car--of COURSE they'll offer me
more in trade than usual!" (when the letter never says anything like that).
Face to face, I was trained to look over a prospect's trade and say "you
know, I may have a buyer for this car..." The buyer for the car is the
used car manager, of course.
So the dealership/salesperson knows how the average prospect will think,
and knows that s/he will supply the "wrong" answers to the implied
questions. Is that deceptive, or merely persuasive?
Incidentally, I never felt bad about making a lot of money on someone
either. If I didn't, someone else would, and even in 1993 (when I was
selling) accurate pricing information was easy to find. If you didn't
avail yourself of that, then that's your problem, not mine.
Different world now. A lot of salespeople aren't on straight commission
anymore (and getting back to the original topic, no Saturn salesperson
is--they're salaried).
> After what I saw of new offerings I wasn't in any mood to trade even. I
> have a Line-X lining and amateur radio is installed very nicely with a
> hole in the roof for the antenna.
Cool. I imagine I'll be TXing eventually. Right now I'm doing a lot of
listening. I got a snazzy Icom handheld receiver at GigaParts a few
weeks ago and I'm just having a blast with it.
> And I get an honest 25+ MPG hauling
> two adults, two dirtbikes, and a day's worth of food and gear, with the
> A/C running. 27 without.
I glance around from time to time and think about "cheating" on my
truck, but such thoughts never survive any close inspection. Dad just
bought an '05 Chrysler 300C Hemi, and I'll be able to buy it in three
years if I want it. My truck will be around 110K by then and be an
ideal second/work vehicle.
Said scenario is excellent incentive for me to avoid the debt now. :)
Bo Williams
Wow. Glad that story has a happy ending.
Saturn is, unfortunately, a classic manifestation of GM-think. When
they get something right, they don't understand WHY it's right, and they
go and screw it up.
Remember the Fiero? GREAT idea. Really, no sarcasm there at all.
Unfortunately, it came to market about two-thirds complete. Wasn't
competitive on price, features, or performance. Had this alarming
tendency to catch fire. Etc. What did they do? They gradually spent
all of the engineering money on it they should have before it debuted.
Slowly but surely, it became a very nice ride. The Fiero GT was a great
driver and sharp as hell (still looks great today). So what'd they do
right after they got it right? Killed it. Think they could have moved
some Fiero GTs undercutting the Toyota MR2 on price by a quarter? I do.
The second-generation MR2 died because it was too expensive, not
because it was undesirable. Do all the work you should have done to
begin with, and right after you've spent the money but before you can
recoup any of it, kill it.
Take the last sentence of the previous paragraph and apply it to
Oldsmobile. The most competitive Oldsmobile lineup ever
(Alero/Intrigue/Aurora/Silhouette/Bravada) was the one right before they
killed the division.
Know about Saab? Saabs are weird. Weirdness is their defining
characteristic. They've historically been fine cars, but someone who
wants a Saab isn't likely to shop much else. So how is GM "saving"
them? By thrusting a shamelessly undisguised Subaru Impreza WRX into
their showrooms, and sliding them a Chevrolet TrailBlazer/GMC
Envoy/Buick Rainier/Isuzu Ascender/Oldsmobile Bravada, putting the
ignition switch on the floor (where it was/is in the 900/9-3) and
calling it a Saab 9-7X. Half of the product line at this point is
something else relabeled--and conformity is EXACTLY what Saab buyers
don't want.
Back to Saturn. In 1991, Saturn debuted with two cars in two trim
levels each. They were competent, but unremarkable, vehicles. The
marketing job, however, was one of the greatest of the 20th century.
"Buying a car should be fun," Saturn dealers said. "Come in and we'll
make sure we're meeting your needs, and we don't haggle, so enjoy it."
This was pretty novel stuff 15 years ago. But it worked BECAUSE the
cars were reasonably competitive. It would NOT have worked with crap.
So what did GM do? They sat back and said "hey, we've got this Saturn
thing down. You don't make people haggle and you have free cookies for
them and you have engaging and articulate salespeople and you have a big
barbecue at the plant in Spring Hill once a year, and all we have to do
is cash the checks!" And there they stayed--as their product line
atrophied. The second generations of each of the cars weren't huge
steps forward; mostly styling tweaks, actually. The L-series finally
debuted to compete against the Camry and Accord, but (uh-oh) it was a
rebadged Opel Vectra, and (uh-oh again) it didn't come out of Spring
Hill, and (uh-oh the worst) it wasn't competitive. The small SUV is a
decent product; too bad it wasn't here 10 years ago. They're *15* years
late to the minivan party, and it's another badge-engineered job that's
also available at the Buick and Chevrolet stores. Why are they doing
these silly things? Because they seized on the wrong thing when trying
to explain Saturn's success to themselves.
I'm watching Cadillac nervously. They're doing several things right in
that division right now, so if history holds...
Joe User
> Mm-hmm. You're 100% immune to marketing, I'm sure. You're much too
> smart for it. Everybody is. Nobody ever once in his/her entire life
> made a purchase of any kind using anything but rational analysis in
> his/her decision. "Nah, that stuff doesn't work on me."
<Snip>
>
> People who think this stuff up have a critical role in our economy.
I realize that decisions (to buy or sell) are made with imperfect
information. There are also plenty of unrecognized psychological
motivations.
The problem is that the type of letter mentioned is a LIE, that is, it is
a perversion of the truth. The truth is that the marketers want people to
come in so the salesman can sell them a new car, and pay them little or
nothing for their old one. What the letter says is that it is a
solicitation to buy what the receiver has. These are different things.
In dealing with car salesman, Joe Public is at a huge disadvantage. There
are well-developed ploys to exploit any insecurities or lusts the customer
has, while the salesman (and his employer) operate in a much more rational
way. Anyone over, say, 25 years of age, should be immune to the letter
reported. If you have money to spend, or credit to exploit, and you
can't understand what this letter REALLY means, maybe you should go in
for that vasectomy or tubal ligation. For the good of future generations.
If you make a living putting out such letters, I suggest suicide. It is
about the only way to reclaim your honor, if you first sign a suicide note
admitting your shame.
--
Making fun of born-again christians is like hunting
dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Bo Williams
> I realize that decisions (to buy or sell) are made with imperfect
> information. There are also plenty of unrecognized psychological
> motivations.
>
> The problem is that the type of letter mentioned is a LIE, that is, it is
> a perversion of the truth.
What is the lie? Be specific. Please quote directly from the letter.
[...]
Joe User
> Joe User wrote:
>
>> I realize that decisions (to buy or sell) are made with imperfect
>> information. There are also plenty of unrecognized psychological
>> motivations.
>>
>> The problem is that the type of letter mentioned is a LIE, that is, it
>> is a perversion of the truth.
>
> What is the lie? Be specific. Please quote directly from the letter.
"Saturn of Huntsville has been designated as a site to conduct a special
market test pricing and financing event." -- Surely, this special
designation is just for advertising purposes only. It is not
special, it is not for market test pricing, and it is only an
event if the opening of the dealership doors is and 'event'. Marketing
BULLSHIT. A perversion of the truth, a LIE.
"We are in desperate need to acquire several pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2 by
May 10, 2005 in order to fulfill special vehicle requests." Pure
BULLSHIT. If they were in desperate need, they could go to a wholesaler
and get pretty much as many as they want. A LIE.
"our new car managers have been authorized to buy back your current
vehicle at or above market prices." A LIE. Their managers are never
authorized to overpay for a car, and a salesman who pays retail for used
cars is not long in his job.
"Due to the high demand for these vehicles, this event will not be
advertised to the general public. This will be your only notification."
A LIE. They are not avoiding advertising due to high demand. They are
avoiding mass advertising to avoid costs and to create an impression of
scarcity.
Maybe your experience at sticking it to customers has made it more
difficult for you to identify a lie?
--
Please provide the date of your death.
-- from an IRS letter
Greg Bacon
Bo Williams <will...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
: Exactly. "Special vehicle requests" in this context means, roughly,
: "we've got to sell some cars, so we're specially requesting your
: vehicle as a trade-in." The prospect "fills in the blanks" [...]
I'm not a prospect or even a maybe-someday-might-be Saturn purchaser,
but "special vehicle requests" carries the strong suggestion of other
external customers looking for that model. Yes, such a demand for
'94 Saturns seems highly unlikely, but the wording is misleading.
I wouldn't go so far as to accuse them of fraud. The letter is fairly
basic reasons-why advertising, and someone with car fever doesn't need
much more than a nudge to help him rationalize the decision he's
already made.
Even though I don't like the tactic, the market will probably judge by
giving a thumbs up. These are free exchanges, so what business is it
of ours? Still, it's annoying that socialists and other busybody
enemies of liberty will latch onto such examples to make the usual
fallacy-of-composition arguments about greedy, dishonest, exploitative
capitalists.
Greg
--
The message was clear: avoid the Egyptian model. Today, to get the tax rate
back to the tyrannical rate of 20%, the West's governments would have to cut
taxes by 50%. The voters do not care. They cannot distinguish between
liberty and tyranny. -- Gary North
Bo Williams
> "Saturn of Huntsville has been designated as a site to conduct a special
> market test pricing and financing event." -- Surely, this special
> designation is just for advertising purposes only. It is not
> special, it is not for market test pricing, and it is only an
> event if the opening of the dealership doors is and 'event'. Marketing
> BULLSHIT. A perversion of the truth, a LIE.
All sales are special. All sales are for market test pricing. All
sales are events.
> "We are in desperate need to acquire several pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2 by
> May 10, 2005 in order to fulfill special vehicle requests." Pure
> BULLSHIT. If they were in desperate need, they could go to a wholesaler
> and get pretty much as many as they want. A LIE.
There is a sales goal to meet by May 10, 2005; the "special vehicle
requests" are from the sales manager to the salespeople. The "several
pre-owned 1994 Saturn SL2" mentioned could mean the letter has gone only
to previous customers of the dealership with excellent credit, and
several of said customers were sold the car in question. The dealership
wants those *specific* cars because those *specific* cars are attached
to customers who can buy another one.
>
> "our new car managers have been authorized to buy back your current
> vehicle at or above market prices." A LIE.
At *OR* above. Any vehicle that is sold at all is sold at market price
by definition, satisfying the truth of the statement already. But
persisting just for jollies: any vehicle that is sold for $.01 more
than published figure X sold for above *that* market price.
> Their managers are never
> authorized to overpay for a car, and a salesman who pays retail for used
> cars is not long in his job.
Salespeople don't buy cars.
>
> "Due to the high demand for these vehicles, this event will not be
> advertised to the general public. This will be your only notification."
> A LIE. They are not avoiding advertising due to high demand.
Which vehicles? Ah, the antecedent isn't clear, is it?
> They are
> avoiding mass advertising to avoid costs and to create an impression of
> scarcity.
>
> Maybe your experience at sticking it to customers
I never stuck it to a customer. I damned sure didn't do their research
for them, though. In the absence of the "no dicker sticker," you try to
pay as little as possible, and the salesperson tries to get paid as much
as possible. Period. If you don't understand that going in, that's not
my problem. If you pay $1,000 more than the dealership would have
taken, it's not dishonest for me to refuse to disclose that.
To be sure, the best salespeople--the ones who make careers of it--offer
plenty of added value for their pay in service after the sale.
I didn't believe this when I first started despite the "old-timers"
telling me so, but the customers I made the most money on were my
happiest. Many of the people who hammered me until they stole the car
were NEVER satisfied, and often they remained convinced that you'd
really made a ton of money on them. I made $78 on a guy once (that's a
$100 mini-deal minus $22 for his "free" Acura cap and T-shirt, IIRC) who
was convinced I was headed out to buy a Rolex that night with all of the
money I'd shamelessly taken from him. Worse, he bought on his seven
bazillionth visit to the dealership, so there's no telling what
opportunities he took me away from. OTOH, on another deal I made $800
for 30 minutes of work, and the hardest part was watching this guy's
wife drive two different colors around the parking lot and offering my
opinion on which one she looked better in.
> has made it more
> difficult for you to identify a lie?
Perhaps you've been taken in by persuasive marketing before and were
offended after the fact?
You've identified exactly zero lies. There's nothing in this letter any
more dishonest than saying "if we make a deal, we'll pay off your
trade-in NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU OWE!" Is it slick? Oh, hail yes. Is
it a lie? Nope.
Bo Williams
> In article <117si7k...@news.supernews.com>,
> Bo Williams <will...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
> : Exactly. "Special vehicle requests" in this context means, roughly,
> : "we've got to sell some cars, so we're specially requesting your
> : vehicle as a trade-in." The prospect "fills in the blanks" [...]
>
> I'm not a prospect or even a maybe-someday-might-be Saturn purchaser,
> but "special vehicle requests" carries the strong suggestion of other
> external customers looking for that model.
Sure it does--but it remains a suggestion the customer must complete in
his/her mind. See my post of a minute ago for a perfectly reasonable
interpretation of the language. Just like "I may have a buyer for this
car" carries the strong suggestion that I have a private party who has
explicitly told me he's looking for this exact car right here--only I
never said any of that.
> Yes, such a demand for
> '94 Saturns seems highly unlikely, but the wording is misleading.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to accuse them of fraud. The letter is fairly
> basic reasons-why advertising, and someone with car fever doesn't need
> much more than a nudge to help him rationalize the decision he's
> already made.
>
> Even though I don't like the tactic, the market will probably judge by
> giving a thumbs up. These are free exchanges, so what business is it
> of ours? Still, it's annoying that socialists and other busybody
> enemies of liberty will latch onto such examples to make the usual
> fallacy-of-composition arguments about greedy, dishonest, exploitative
> capitalists.
Of course. Everyone knows car salespeople are thieves. ;)
Joe User
> All sales are special. All sales are for market test pricing. All
> sales are events.
<snip>
> You've identified exactly zero lies. There's nothing in this letter any
> more dishonest than saying "if we make a deal, we'll pay off your
> trade-in NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU OWE!" Is it slick? Oh, hail yes. Is
> it a lie? Nope.
Well, there it is. It is considered alright in some circles to be
'slick'. In most times and places, that behaviour is considered
untruthful, deceptive, and fraudulent. A perversion of the truth. A
lie. To be slick is to be an asshole, untrustworthy, and not fit for
business. So, should a person try to deal with people who can only defend
their activities by calling them 'slick'? I don't think so.
--
The American Republic will endure, until
politicians realize they can bribe the
people with their own money.
-- Alexis de Tocqueville
Bo Williams
> On Sun, 08 May 2005 15:12:45 -0500, Bo Williams wrote:
>
>
>>All sales are special. All sales are for market test pricing. All
>>sales are events.
>
> <snip>
>
>>You've identified exactly zero lies. There's nothing in this letter any
>>more dishonest than saying "if we make a deal, we'll pay off your
>>trade-in NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU OWE!" Is it slick? Oh, hail yes. Is
>>it a lie? Nope.
>
>
> Well, there it is. It is considered alright in some circles to be
> 'slick'.
Of course it is. Is it your absurd assertion that no communication you
do has the slightest manipulative intent?
> In most times and places, that behaviour is considered
> untruthful, deceptive, and fraudulent. A perversion of the truth. A
> lie. To be slick is to be an asshole, untrustworthy, and not fit for
> business. So, should a person try to deal with people who can only defend
> their activities by calling them 'slick'? I don't think so.
Snip my explanation and say I'm "only" defending it by calling it slick?
Just what do you call that, Mr. Communicative Purity?
I think you must have gotten your head knocked off once upon a time
buying a car and you're still pissed off about it. S'ok. My big lesson
was my baseball card collection.
Joe User
Both of the responses to my previous posting focused on the sale and
bargaining procedure.
Bargaining always involves getting the best deal you can. I think
surreptitiously adding costs to a settled contract is deceitful, but that
was not the focus of any of my comments. Neither was I discussing what is
legal, only right or wrong.
I was writing about the advertising letter. I said it was deceitful. I
still think it was.
--
So, you think you could out-clever us
French folk with your silly knees-bent
running about advancing behaviour? I
wave my private parts at your aunties,
you cheesy lot of second-handed electric
donkey-bottom biters!
-- Monty Python
David Kelly
Bo Williams <will...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> David Kelly wrote:
>>
> > After what I saw of new offerings I wasn't in any mood to trade even. I
> > have a Line-X lining and amateur radio is installed very nicely with a
> > hole in the roof for the antenna.
>
> Cool. I imagine I'll be TXing eventually. Right now I'm doing a lot of
> listening. I got a snazzy Icom handheld receiver at GigaParts a few
> weeks ago and I'm just having a blast with it.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/truck/
In particular this picture showing the radio mounted under the passenger
kick panel: http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/truck/3-Radio.jpg
Truck was about a week old at the time. Saw that scratch on the glovebox
for the first time just before starting the installation. Dealer
replaced the glovebox door.
The control head fits nicely right here over the airbag disarm switch:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/truck/5-ControlHead.jpg
Truck was half unloaded when I thought to take this picture:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/dirtbike/TwoBikesAndTruck.jpg
Selected Line-X bed liner because it appeared to be the best at not
being slick when wet and muddy. The picture above isn't a very good
example of wet or muddy, we stayed pretty clean that day. Now, if we had
to load the bikes in the rain after riding in the rain....
Joe User
> . But, the buyer should always beware and walk away from an obviously
> questionable transaction. The, when I read about someone getting
> screwed, one could argue who is flim flammed when the buyer thinks
> he's taking advantage of the seller and getting a good deal?
I know a guy who is the sales manager of a local dealership.
He says he is never happier than when a customer lies to him. Then, he
has the customer just where he wants him. You lie down with dogs, you get
up with fleas.
--
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
-- Groucho Marx
m...@here.net
wrote:
>The control head fits nicely right here over the airbag disarm switch:
>http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/truck/5-ControlHead.jpg
>
Nice setup. But I see three things wrong with the picture.
1. The speedometer only goes up to 100 mph. Oh, wait, you're still
working on that Porsche.
2. You've got the air conditioning set to normal. Set it to max and
leave it there. This is Alabama.
3. The car radio is set on AM and tuned to WSM. WLS is much better.
Good job, though. See ya,
Mike Weller
Bo Williams
> On Sun, 08 May 2005 21:22:20 -0500, David Kelly <n4...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>The control head fits nicely right here over the airbag disarm switch:
>>http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/truck/5-ControlHead.jpg
>>
>
>
> Nice setup.
Indeed. Very tidy.
David Kelly
m...@here.net wrote:
> Nice setup. But I see three things wrong with the picture.
>
> 1. The speedometer only goes up to 100 mph. Oh, wait, you're still
> working on that Porsche.
Too many toys. Too little time. Got plenty of speed. This is me in a
race on January 2 holding my own at 45th or so out of 68. Think my best
5 mile lap averaged 14 MPH:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/dirtbike/HoD_2005_0268.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/dirtbike/HoD_2005_0443.jpg
> 3. The car radio is set on AM and tuned to WSM. WLS is much better.
Look again and read the text which you deleted. Its a combo
radio/clock/cassette. Picture was taken at 6:55 PM. The downward
pointing triangle is indicating the direction the cassette tape is
playing. Believe that side is "Modern Jazz Quartet - Blues on Bach" :-)