Prius battery experiments
Bob & Holly Wilson
One of the greatest fears about hybrids has been "the battery will wear
out." So the Dept. of Energy bought some Prius and ran them for 160,000
miles without having to replace the battery. The batteries had lost
capacity, 6.5 Ahr ended at 2.6 Ahr, but the mileage at the end was
nearly the same as for the whole of the test. Prius battery capacity is
not the secret to high mileage. But still, the fear of "battery
replacement" remained.
In January, I bought a worn-out, Prius battery pack for $250 in South
Carolina. Four of the thirty-eight modules were marked with "NG" (no
good) and these have been the first ones I've been looking at. But
curiously, only one had a shorted cell:
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_batt_200.jpg
Most of the other modules measured from 2.0-2.3 Ahr. Low but perfectly
functional. So the question remained, what can be done with them? Can
they be refurbished?
I took two modules and using tee nuts, added water service ports to the
batteries. What happens is over time, the brief over and under charge
conditions, 50-70 amps, electrolyze the water releasing hydrogen and
oxygen gas. Although most recombines, there is a loss over time. I found
that just adding distilled water and going through a series of
discharge-charge cycles, like new capacity returns:
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_batt_300.jpg
The economics of battery refurbishment are interesting. A new battery
pack with 38 modules costs $2,300, about $60/module. My worn out battery
pack of 38 modules cost $250 or about $7/module. With less than $5 in
parts and a penny of water, each module can be returned to like new
condition:
$7 + $5 -> $60 module
A lot of what I've done came from reading patents held by Toyota and the
current NiMH patent holder, Ovonic. But I've also made changes and my
investigations continue.
Growing up in Oklahoma there was an old joke about Geronimo's Cadilac.
It seems an oil rich indian bought a Cadilac and came back a week later
to buy another. When asked why, it turned out the car had run out of
gas. So when hybrid skeptics tried to claim 'the batteries were too
expensive', I heard the same old joke about Geronimo's Cadilac.
BTW, the odometer of my NHW11, 2003 Prius just rolled over 100,000
miles. Bought used, I've average 52.3 MPG for the past 50,000 miles.
Bob Wilson
Ron Hammon
With gas headed toward $4 per gallon, maybe the Wilson bashing around
here will lighten up this time.
Did you try De-Sta-Co clamps yet?
Ron Hammon
Joe User
> With gas headed toward $4 per gallon, maybe the Wilson bashing around
> here will lighten up this time.
I've had stranger pass-times than playing with a car.
I think it would be nice if hybrid car development would give us good
energy storage. I would like to have my house on some type of energy
storage system, so I could be detached from the electric utilities.
I figure that it will be best done with a flywheel storage system, but
maybe ultracapacitors will come through first.
Greg Bacon
Joe User <ax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: I think it would be nice if hybrid car development would give us
: good energy storage. I would like to have my house on some type
: of energy storage system, so I could be detached from the
: electric utilities.
:
: I figure that it will be best done with a flywheel storage
: system, but maybe ultracapacitors will come through first.
I have great sympathy for your desire to be independent of the
grid, but what happens when a flywheel with enough energy to
power a car -- or a house (!!) -- breaks loose?
Greg
--
It should be noted that government is never so zealous in suppressing
crime as when that crime consists of direct injury to its own sources of
revenue, as in tax evasion and counterfeiting of its currency.
-- Murray Rothbard
Ron Hammon
>
> In article <27n8a5-...@random43332.fictitious.us>,
> Joe User <ax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> : I think it would be nice if hybrid car development would give us
> : good energy storage. I would like to have my house on some type
> : of energy storage system, so I could be detached from the
> : electric utilities.
> :
> : I figure that it will be best done with a flywheel storage
> : system, but maybe ultracapacitors will come through first.
>
> I have great sympathy for your desire to be independent of the
> grid, but what happens when a flywheel with enough energy to
> power a car -- or a house (!!) -- breaks loose?
>
Not to mention turning it or dealing with hills. ;-)
After watching oil prices this week, I've been considering cryogen for
energy storage and a direct "fuel" with ZERO emmisions. It is hard to
beat a change of state for energy storage. A cryogen driven engine
certainly wouldn't run hot.
Ron Hammon
Joe User
> I have great sympathy for your desire to be independent of the grid, but
> what happens when a flywheel with enough energy to power a car -- or a
> house (!!) -- breaks loose?
>
I think that what flywheel UPS systems do is to embed the flywheels in
concrete.
So, you have 10 or so flywheels, each in a metal enclosure, with the
metal enclosures bolted down into a concrete slab. If anything goes bad,
the flying parts are absorbed by the concrete.
It would be nice if solar or wind or wood fire energy could be used to
charge up a household energy store. It would probably never be
economically convincing, but I would like to not have to pay an electric
bill every month.
I think that right now, the only renewable energy play that pays for a
homeowner is solar water and space heating. That only makes sense in
some cases, though.
Jean Smith
Ron Hammon <rgha...@bellsouth.nyet> wrote:
Cool! With oil at $106/bbl what become competitive? Oil funds are said
to be driving the price rather than actual demand.
--
"I think, on balance, NAFTA has been good for New York and America"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0swdRvYgw http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
Rose http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/arkansas/docs/recs.html
Shelby http://blog.al.com/ht/2007/10/boeing_co_letter_in_response_t.html
dse...@hiwaay.net
Perhaps it depends on how creative you are, how frugal you are, and
how badly you want to be off the grid. I know a guy who lives in
rural Colorado. He used his welding skills to weld up a small
windmill tower that runs a 12V generator (or maybe it's an
alternator). This charges a bank of 12V car batteries. The batteries
are stored in an old outhouse conveniently located just outside the
back door.
Inside the home are several electric lights, a small TV, a radio and
some small appliances -- all of which run on 12 volts. He gets them
from a motor home supply store. He has a second windmill that runs a
well pump which fills a couple of 100-gallon tanks. The tanks are on
platforms next to the house, about six feet off the ground. Water is
fed by gravity to a kitchen sink, a tub and a toilet.
It's been a few years since I've seen him, but the last time I was
there he had yet to run out of electricity or water due to lack of
wind. His biggest problems were keepings things from freezing.
It was, I thought, an incredibly simple yet functional system --
especially for a guy who was not an engineer. He is really handy with
tools and has a lot of common sense. He doesn't care if it takes 20
minutes to run water for a bath, or 5 minutes for the toilet tank to
refill. And he'll never have a big screen TV or a second refrigerator
in the garage just for cold beer. But he's off the grid on 80 acres
of land that's awesomely beautiful.
Dan
Ron Hammon
>
snip
>
> It was, I thought, an incredibly simple yet functional system --
> especially for a guy who was not an engineer. He is really handy with
> tools and has a lot of common sense. He doesn't care if it takes 20
> minutes to run water for a bath, or 5 minutes for the toilet tank to
> refill. And he'll never have a big screen TV or a second refrigerator
> in the garage just for cold beer. But he's off the grid on 80 acres
> of land that's awesomely beautiful.
>
I want a "Mr. Fusion".
Or, in the near term;
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/purdue-university-develops-mrfusion-finally-234032.php
Ron Hammon
Mark Manship
Suzie Nolen Bennett
David Kelly
>
Real Men do not post blank messages.
Greg Bacon
<dse...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
: [...] But he's off the grid on 80 acres of land that's
: awesomely beautiful.
Have you heard about Mike Strizki and his solar-hydrogen house?
His energy bill is $0.00
A New Jersey civil engineer powers his home with
solar panels and hydrogen tanks. Can it work in
the mainstream?
By Jared Flesher
from the March 15, 2007 edition
EAST AMWELL, N.J. - Mike Strizki lives in the
nation's first solar-hydrogen house. The
technology this civil engineer has been able to
string together -- solar panels, a hydrogen fuel
cell, storage tanks, and a piece of equipment
called an electrolyzer -- provides electricity to
his home year-round, even on the cloudiest of
winter days.
Mr. Strizki's monthly utility bill is zero --
he's off the power grid -- and his system creates
no carbon-dioxide emissions. Neither does the
fuel-cell car parked in his garage, which runs
off the hydrogen his system creates.
It sounds promising, even utopian: homemade,
storable energy that doesn't contribute to global
warming. But does Strizki's method -- converting
electricity generated from renewable sources into
hydrogen -- make sense for widespread adoption?
[...]
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0315/p12s01-sten.html
Also on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEdQRVQtffw
Greg
--
As against a Jesus, the historic choice of the mass-man goes regularly
to some Barabbas.
-- Albert Jay Nock on democracy
k...@hiwaay.net
: In article <55j8t3hlgergdlc9f...@4ax.com>,
: <dse...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
: [...]
: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0315/p12s01-sten.html
: Also on YouTube:
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEdQRVQtffw
More details at www.hopewellproject.org
It reality it wasn't really a diy effort but a joint effort by NJ
utilities and other commercial sponsors with him supplying the house and
some upfront cash.
Joe User
> But does Strizki's method --
> converting electricity generated from renewable sources into
> hydrogen -- make sense for widespread adoption?
No.
I have priced such things.
There is probably a $200,000.00 capital investment in that solar
photovoltaic to hydrogen system. At least.
He MIGHT avoid $500.00 per month in energy bills.
I would guess that depreciation and maintenance on the installation are
higher than the avoided energy costs.
I'd estimate that it is totally uneconomical.
------------
I sized and priced a solar PV system. I wanted a baseline emergency
installation that could power a room air-conditioner, a computer system,
and a kitchen refrigerator. It didn't have to tie into the power grid,
but did need battery storage.
The price? Drum roll... $22,000.00, installed.
I can buy a lot of generator capacity for that amount. Unless Mad Max is
on the roads, home PV is a totally bad decision. Solar water and space
heating, though, are economical.
Ron Hammon
>
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:16:32 +0000, Greg Bacon wrote:
>
> > converting electricity generated from renewable sources into
> > hydrogen -- make sense for widespread adoption?
>
>
> I have priced such things.
>
> There is probably a $200,000.00 capital investment in that solar
> photovoltaic to hydrogen system. At least.
>
> He MIGHT avoid $500.00 per month in energy bills.
>
> I would guess that depreciation and maintenance on the installation are
> higher than the avoided energy costs.
>
> I'd estimate that it is totally uneconomical.
>
> ------------
>
> I sized and priced a solar PV system. I wanted a baseline emergency
> installation that could power a room air-conditioner, a computer system,
> and a kitchen refrigerator. It didn't have to tie into the power grid,
> but did need battery storage.
>
> The price? Drum roll... $22,000.00, installed.
>
> I can buy a lot of generator capacity for that amount. Unless Mad Max is
> on the roads, home PV is a totally bad decision. Solar water and space
> heating, though, are economical.
When did you price the PV system. Someone posted recently that some
company had slashed the price of PV by about 90%.
Ron Hammon
Joe User
> When did you price the PV system. Someone posted recently that some
> company had slashed the price of PV by about 90%.
Someone is ALWAYS slashing the cost of PV systems by 90%. Every week,
someone announces a breakthrough. If any of these announcements were
true, they'd be paying people to take away PV panels.
In reality, the price of PV is coming down fairly slowly. The price is
kept up especially by the cost of batteries, installation, and
maintenance.
You have to watch out when you shop for PV systems online. EVERYONE
seems to quote prices AFTER government subsidies. California subsidises
PV panels, but not many other states do.
The Nelsons
>
me that it would be more efficient to skip the "middle man" process of using
electricity to convert water to hydrogen. Just use the solar cells to
charge batteries, then use electricity from the batteries.
Perhaps those batteries could be salvaged from old Prius packs. (I threw
that in to stay closer to the original topic.)
Rick
Jean Smith
"The Nelsons" <nese...@knology.net> wrote:
I think fuel cells are supposed to be more efficient. Hauling a half ton
of batteries a hundred thousand miles would be avoided, whereas hydrogen
could provide lift.
Joe User
"Ron Hammon" <rgha...@bellsouth.nyet> wrote in message
news:47D5E5...@bellsouth.nyet...
>
> When did you price the PV system. Someone posted recently that some
> company had slashed the price of PV by about 90%.
>
> Ron Hammon
That is the straight line to every joke about PV electric panels.
The cost of PV panels is slashed by 90% EVERY WEEK.
Or, maybe EVERY DAY someone announces a drastic, monumental, historic
decrease in the cost of solar energy!!! INVEST NOW OR BE LEFT BEHIND!!!
The cost of photovoltaic generation has been going down, mostly, but not by
a whole lot.
The cost of home systems is stalled, mostly kept up by the cost of storage
systems (batteries), installation, design, and maintenance.
I priced the $22,000.00 home system late in 2007. What most PV promoters
don't tell you is their costs always include California government grants
and tax credits. If you don't live in California, it isn't even that
reasonable. And even with the state paying a large portion of the costs, it
STILL isn't economic.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Chris Adams
>Is there a benefit to using hydrogen as a power storage medium? It seems to
>me that it would be more efficient to skip the "middle man" process of using
>electricity to convert water to hydrogen. Just use the solar cells to
>charge batteries, then use electricity from the batteries.
You have:
sunlight - solar cell - electricity - hygrogen - electricity
or
sunlight - solar cell - electricity - battery - electricity
In that setup, hydrogen is being used as the battery. You can't "skip
the middle man" - either way, you are attempting to store energy. There
are many different ways to to store energy, each with pros and cons.
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Bob & Holly Wilson
> > Have you heard about Mike Strizki and his solar-hydrogen house?
> >
> Is there a benefit to using hydrogen as a power storage medium?
Interesting you should ask this question because my Prius already does
this in the NiMH batteries. It turns out that hydrogen storage in the
metal hydride gives these batteries excellent energy densities.
Bob Wilson
oztr...@gmail.com
Toyota initially we’re going to warranty but then backed out as car hadn’t been serviced by Toyota.
Bought a battery from a wrecked taxi, which Ended up only being a few months old and problem solved.
Started experimenting with the remaining 27 modules, cycling them on radio controlled NiMh charger.
Bob are your modules the cylindrical type ? Or the rectangular NP2 modules.
I am curious to find out more about injecting distilled water to rejuvenate cell
Regards
Dale C