Post War Comparison (March 28th - April 2)

[Matthew R. Giorgio]

After reading Chapters 34 and 35, revisit Wilson's "14 Points" then
compare and contrast it to the Atlantic Charter (located below).

Write a discussion response on one of the following topics:

1.the similarities or differences
2. the purpose
3. the desire for these post-war ideals
________________________________________
THE ATLANTIC CHARTER (1941)

The United States would not enter the war until after the Japanese
attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. But by the spring of 1941
Congress had approved the Lend Lease program, and the aid Roosevelt
had promised at Charlottesville had begun to flow to Great Britain,
where Winston Churchill was now prime minister. In July 1941,
Roosevelt and Churchill met for the first time in Argentia Bay off
Newfoundland, to issue a joint declaration on the purposes of the war
against fascism. Just as Wilson's Fourteen Points delineated the first
war, so the Atlantic Charter provided the criteria for the second.

Originally the Soviet Union, which had been attacked by Germany the
month before, was to sign the charter as well. But the notion of "one
world," in which nations abandoned their traditional beliefs in and
reliance upon military alliances and spheres of influence, did not
appeal to Joseph Stalin, and, in fact, neither was Churchill
particularly thrilled. Only Roosevelt, who had been a member of the
Wilson administration, truly believed in the possibility of a world
governed by democratic processes, with an international organization
serving as an arbiter of disputes and protector of the peace.

For further reading: James McGregor Burns, Roosevelt: The Soldier of
Freedom (1970); Gaddis Smith, American Diplomacy During the Second
World War (1964); and Robert Divine, Roosevelt and World War II
(1969).
________________________________________
THE ATLANTIC CHARTER (text)

The President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister,
Mr. Churchill, representing His Majesty's Government in the United
Kingdom, being met together, deem it right to make known certain
common principles in the national policies of their respective
countries on which they base their hopes for a better future for the
world.

"First, their countries seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other;

"Second, they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord
with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned;

"Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of
government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign
rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly
deprived of them;

"Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing
obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small,
victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to
the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic
prosperity;

"Fifth, they desire to bring about the fullest collaboration between
all nations in the economic field with the object of securing, for
all, improved labor standards, economic advancement and social
security;

"Sixth, after the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny, they hope to
see established a peace which will afford to all nations the means of
dwelling in safety within their own boundaries, and which will afford
assurance that all the men in all the lands may live out their lives
in freedom from fear and want;

"Seventh, such a peace should enable all men to traverse the high seas
and oceans without hindrance;

"Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for
realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of
the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea
or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or
may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe,
pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general
security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will
likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measures which will
lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments."


Franklin D. Roosevelt
Winston S. Churchill

[Alan Padilla]

Wilson's "14 Points" had a similar goal and intent as the Atlantic Charter that maybe executed well could have worked but by WWII the US realized that this time they actually had to push measure for guaranteeing avoidance of such event from ever happening again and thus the Atlantic Charter was born in correlation with Britain and the US. They both established that all land would stay in their respected nations control, which points 1 and 2 in the Charter and points 5,7,8,9, and 13 in the 14 point plan. They all sum up that some nations will be restored, independent, and reestablished.  In point 3 of charter it states how people should be allowed to vote on the type of Government they want to live in this is similar to point 6 of the 14 point plan where Russia is allowed to vote its own type of government. Points 4 and 5 of the Charter state in equality of trade for economic prosperity and collaborations of nation for economic advantages this is similar to points 2 and 3 in the freedom of seas and trade so that nations are put in a fair ground to trade and no one nation controls all trade aspect for its singular dominance in the economy. Both the Atlantic Charter and the !4 Point plan put measures to ensure equality, restoration of territories, and set up a larger union of nations that would be needed to guarantee peace with -deweaponizing  larger nations. 

[Alex Mendez]

The Atlantic Charter, and Wilson's 14 points have few differences, when it came to certain things in each of their documents,such as Wilson describing the Poland free state, and the Atlantic charter's policy towards Nazis these differences are of course due to the fact they were composed during different times) but overall the documents, are almost identical, not only because of their similar polices, but simply the similar purpose they were constructed, and that was to try to not only reconstruct international relations but to improve them as well so nothing terrible, like a massive war, can harm society again. In Wilson points, there are many points dedicated in helping individual nations with boundary rules, such as 9-13, but the major point that reveals the purpose of the entire document, is the final point 14, which says that basically said that all nations must have an association together in order to improve communication, and so they can all watch over one and other,and this can relate to many of The Atlantic charter's points, such as the fourth that talks about boundary respect, just like Wilson 9-13 and then his eighth, that says that no nation can use hostile force against each other in order to secure peace which will improve their relations like Wilson's 14th .Both of these documents were created because, of war, and not just any war, the first two global, and truly destructive wars ever, and it can be seen from specific(that i pointed out) that the reasons why these two were even drafted to begin with there purpose, was to make sure the world never gets in such a state of despair again, so in both works, they bring up boundary rules, since boundaries, can cause war and better communication which can prevent war,

Both Wilson's points, and Roosevelt's and Churchill charter, maybe two different documents, form two different time, but their purpose for existing  and the reason they were even written, is the same, to improve international relations, to make sure there is respect between them and understanding.

Happy Easter(to those who celebrate...and if you don't, Happy Sunday :) )

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[Matthew R. Giorgio]

Interesting comments thus far gentlemen. I do hope that the rest of
the class will chime in soon. Alan does a great job of summarizing
some of the similarities as does Alex hint at something important to
consider:

Alex writes that these two documents were written at different times.
Yes, that is obvious BUT (and I don't know if he did this on purpose
or not) what about the times in which they were written. By this I
mean that Wilson's Fourteen Points were written in January of 1918 -
about eight months AFTER we had joined WWI while Roosevelt and
Churchill create this joint document four months BEFORE we joined
WWII. What, if anything, can that tell us?

I look forward to your thoughts.
BTW - study guides were posted under last week's heading on my
website. Quiz tomorrow???

> >> ______________________________**__________

> >> THE ATLANTIC CHARTER (1941)
>
> >> The United States would not enter the war until after the Japanese
> >> attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. But by the spring of 1941
> >> Congress had approved the Lend Lease program, and the aid Roosevelt
> >> had promised at Charlottesville had begun to flow to Great Britain,
> >> where Winston Churchill was now prime minister. In July 1941,
> >> Roosevelt and Churchill met for the first time in Argentia Bay off
> >> Newfoundland, to issue a joint declaration on the purposes of the war
> >> against fascism. Just as Wilson's Fourteen Points delineated the first
> >> war, so the Atlantic Charter provided the criteria for the second.
>
> >> Originally the Soviet Union, which had been attacked by Germany the
> >> month before, was to sign the charter as well. But the notion of "one
> >> world," in which nations abandoned their traditional beliefs in and
> >> reliance upon military alliances and spheres of influence, did not
> >> appeal to Joseph Stalin, and, in fact, neither was Churchill
> >> particularly thrilled. Only Roosevelt, who had been a member of the
> >> Wilson administration, truly believed in the possibility of a world
> >> governed by democratic processes, with an international organization
> >> serving as an arbiter of disputes and protector of the peace.
>
> >> For further reading: James McGregor Burns, Roosevelt: The Soldier of
> >> Freedom (1970); Gaddis Smith, American Diplomacy During the Second
> >> World War (1964); and Robert Divine, Roosevelt and World War II
> >> (1969).

> >> ______________________________**__________

[Jennifer Contreras]

A couple of similarities that both Wilson's "14 Points" and the Atlantic Charter have are that both were made by powerful men of the United States in a troubling case such as foreign affairs. These two were made to settle certain agreements after a war so that all the countries that were involved would have peace with each other and no hard feelings. Some of the things that these two have in common also have to do with the letting people travel the seas in peace without fear and whenever they desire. Another thing that they have in common is that they both also talk about armaments and the levying of weapons if it is necessary as well as the respecting of people's opinion on government.

Although they both have much in common, they both also have some differences as well. An example of this is also the right of traveling the seas without fear and freedom. In the Atlantic Charter, it says the same thing but it also quotes "without hindrance" and in Wilson's fourteen points, it says kind of the same thing but it also talks about the people being able to travel even during war. Another thing that they both differ on is the fact that although both were made to make peace, one was made after during a treaty and another one was made to avoid war. Also if you notice very clearly from the information that is presented, the Atlantic Charter does not say any specific places unlike Wilson's Fourteen Points. In Wilson's Fourteen Points, Wilson actually named countries and what they should do and what rights they had with his Fourteen Points. In every point he names specific places and countries without leaving any out so that his points would be specific.

From: Matthew R. Giorgio <matthew....@gmail.com>
To: AP US History - HSA-Dallas <HSA_...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 2:02 PM
Subject: Post War Comparison (March 28th - April 2)

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[moises rico]

The U.S. on both occasions during WWI and WWII had begun both wars in a self-proclaimed isolation yet they supported the Allies by providing aid, by the time the U.S. entered WWI and WWII, the presidents at the time Woodrow Wilson and FDR, respectively, had to justify their reasons for entering war( except FDR who had not yet declared war but was instead showing support for Britain) and what their post-war plans were in order to ensure a long lasting peace. The Atlantic Charter and Fourteen Points detail two main post war ideals, peace and democracy, both documents are filled with points regarding self-determination, future peace, and other points of a similar agenda. During both world wars the U.S. claimed to be fighting for democracy and so both documents speak of people being able to form their own governments and since the U.S. wanted to discourage resentment from Germany and the other defeated nations they sought disarmament between all nations and to remove all economic barriers. Essentially both documents are the basis for peace between both alliances within the wars and are a way of a assuring the other nations that in the event of their victory the U.S. (and Britain in the Atlantic Charter) would not seek some sort of redemption. Wilson and FDR wanted to avoid any future wars and these two documents served as the foundation for ending conflict. This is shown in the creation of the League of Nations and then again with the United Nations.

---

From: Matthew R. Giorgio <matthew....@gmail.com>
To: AP US History - HSA-Dallas <HSA_...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 3:02 PM

Subject: Post War Comparison (March 28th - April 2)

[Erica Vazquez]

Both, Wilson’s 14 points and Roosevelt and Churchill’s Atlantic Charter had as main purpose to improve international relations, as Alex mentioned before, and to guarantee world peace. In order to avoid territorial conflict and aggression between the countries, Wilson includes in his 14 Points the points 5-9 and 13. If the Wilson’s suggestions were effectively putted into practice, the conflict referring to Belgian, France, Italy, Poland, and all the other countries addressed by Wilson, could had been peacefully solved. Similarly, the first and second point of the Atlantic Charter also addresses the issues referring to the restoration, independence and reestablishment of the nations. Wilson also intended to improve the international relations by creating the points 1-4 which stated the importance of no secret agreements and freedom of sea and trade. With the same intention, Roosevelt and Churchill added the fifth statement to their Atlantic charter. Point number 14 of Wilson’s 14 Points states the main purpose of this document; the creation of an organization that would better the communication between the countries, thus improving their relation and therefore guaranteeing peace.  The Atlantic Charter‘s eight point also states its purpose of trying to maintain world peace.  

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[Dulce Martinez]

The similarities between President Wilson's 14 Points and FDR's Atlantic Charter with the British Prime Minister where not only similar in content but very similar  in purpose. As indicated by the dates in which these  documents were signed ; the perspective is in benefit  of the U.S. Why? Well because the 14 points were seen as a PREVENTIVE strike of dictatorships and the interests of the people, also included was the right to "Freedom of navigation upon the seas... in peace as in war." The U.S. during World War One issued the 14 points not only as a suggestion of peace but also including the economic issues that tied Europe to them. Leading to the conclusion that the 14 Points can not only be seen as a wanting of peace between countries , but also as an entrance of the U.S, of the world stage ;a status that the Atlantic Charter tried to define . The Atlantic Charter states that both Britain and the U,S agreed that everyone should "respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of

government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign

rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly

deprived of them" This statement can state the similar purpose of the "joint" agreement of  war as also a PREVENTIVE strike for the entrance of the U.S. to World War Two. The U.S. had not even joined the war but their entrance was not not to be futile because in a way if they joined the war, which they did only a month later, they could declare that the peace that ensued was do to the democratic morals of the rising nation. A similar statement that Wilson expressed when world war one was to be over it would be because of the U.S efforts of calming the European powers.

In conclusion the content of both documents comment on the "proper " excuse for the U.S. to join the war or pacify it declaring their power and ideals as a remedy for the terrible usurpation of power occurring in Germany and Europe in general.

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Erica Vazquez <erica...@gmail.com> wrote:

Both, Wilson’s 14 points and Roosevelt and Churchill’s Atlantic Charter had as main purpose to improve international relations, as Alex mentioned before, and to guarantee world peace. In order to avoid territorial conflict and aggression between the countries, Wilson includes in his 14 Points the points 5-9 and 13. If the Wilson’s suggestions were effectively putted into practice, the conflict referring to Belgian, France, Italy, Poland, and all the other countries addressed by Wilson, could had been peacefully solved. Similarly, the first and second point of the Atlantic Charter also addresses the issues referring to the restoration, independence and reestablishment of the nations. Wilson also intended to improve the international relations by creating the points 1-4 which stated the importance of no secret agreements and freedom of sea and trade. With the same intention, Roosevelt and Churchill added the fifth statement to their Atlantic charter. Point number 14 of Wilson’s 14 Points states the main purpose of this document; the creation of an organization that would better the communication between the countries, thus improving their relation and therefore guaranteeing peace.  The Atlantic Charter‘s eight point also states its purpose of trying to maintain world peace. The discussion and agreement between FDR and Churchill set the standards that the U.S, was trying to establish as a now "main player" in the world stage when the ideals of fascism and "wrong" ideals were being spread. This goal is seen as an action that both excused the U.S. for their involvement for the benifit of the people and it's now declared  

[Cesar Garcia]

Wilson's 14 points and the Atlantic Charter are almost indentical like Alex mentioned, like Allan says both documents practically aim for equallity worldwide and peace. Points 6 to 13 from Wilsons 14 are really similar to the 1st and 2nd charter of the Atlantic Charter saying that no country should seek territorial gain or expansion. It also matches with the 3th one which basically secures the freedom to choose the type goverment people want. Points 2 and 3 match with charters 4 and 5 which basically secure or protect free trade, securing the overseas trade routes. Both documents are similar, the difference is that the charters arestronger in the way that its more secure than the Wilson points because it was created after WWII.

Sent from my iPhone

[Kenny Davila]

Even though both these documents were created at different times, I can see a strong resemblance with their purposes. Both these documents had the purpose of improving international relations and eventually leading to peace among them and eradicating any need for war. Within Wilson's 14 point plan (points 5-9 and 13) the idea of resolving several countries territorial disputes and restoration would be considered the necessary measure needed to prevent future wars. In the Atlantic Charter the same idea was considered and actually used to prevent further world wars from occurring. Sadly, both these documents were resulting clauses from wars that were occurring or in fact had occurred and damage had been done. Both these documents were created to serve the same purpose, which can be found in point 14 from Wilson's plan and point 8 in the Atlantic Charter. The purpose of both these documents were to maintain world peace all the time and prevent any future hostility between countries.

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[Ruhama Brown]

 

Like Allan said there are multiple similarities between Wilson’s 14 points plan and the Atlantic charter likewise their purpose is similar as well. The Atlantic Charter Agreement and Wilson's Fourteen Point Peace Plan were both peaceful agreements. The charter resembled President Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points in the sense that both declarations stated ” idealistic objectives for a postwar world”. Upon the making of the Atlantic charter the United States, even though they were technically neutral in World War II, the United States was getting closer and closer to the war. I think that’s why Franklin Roosevelt felt it was necessary to create what the world would be like after the war. The purpose of the Atlantic Charter was “to make known certain common principles in the national policies of their respective countries on which they base their hopes for a better future of the world.” So basically the charter was made to establish peace with other nations by allowing them to have the same set of mind on issues. Both the Atlantic Charter and Wilson’s 14 points plan have self-determination for everyone that was involved, freedom of the seas, and collective security. Even though in the beginning Wilson created the 14 points plan in order to keep reeling Russia in the war, “Wilson’s 14 points plan inspired all of the allies to make mightier efforts and demoralized the enemy governments by holding out alluring promises to their dissatisfied minorities.”  

Kennedy, David M., Lizabeth Cohen, and Thomas A. Bailey.

   The American Pageant: A History of the Republic. 12th

   ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 2001

[dyana Yaritza]

dyana Yaritza

the only particular difference between wilson's 14 points plan and the Atlantic charter is the dates in which these two peace makers were created. They both held the same purpose, to establish stability among nations and prevent future distraction. The purpose for the Atlantic charter of 1941 was to establishments goals for after the war.the eight points were mainly to prevent any disputes between nations so war would not continue any longer. The main point was the eighth which was disarmament. This was like a leave-it-alone situation. Whoever won or lost was the final loser or winner there would not be no rebounds. These nations were willing to respect any territorial claims or desires in order to maintain peace amongst each other through the Atlantic charter. "fullest collaboration between all nations, respect for their existing obligations and freely expressed obligations of peoples' concerns," all concluded that the charter had it's good intentions.
The purpose of wilson's 14 point was to Void any more damage or war after ww1. He tried to create fair peace amongst the nations though some of his points were simply unrealistic. Britain would never accept freedom of navigation upon the seas. He still tried though because he never wanted to go back to war again. It was his scheme of a war to end all wars. 8 of these 14 points desired to bring ww1 to an early end exile the rest was to prevent future wars. He wanted to set up an international organization kind of thing.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 1, 2013, at 7:53 PM, "Matthew R. Giorgio" <matthew....@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting comments thus far gentlemen. I do hope that the rest of
the class will chime in soon. Alan does a great job of summarizing
some of the similarities as does Alex hint at something important to
consider:

Alex writes that these two documents were written at different times.
Yes, that is obvious BUT (and I don't know if he did this on purpose
or not) what about the times in which they were written. By this I
mean that Wilson's Fourteen Points were written in January of 1918 -
about eight months AFTER we had joined WWI while Roosevelt and
Churchill create this joint document four months BEFORE we join

After reading Chapters 34 and 35, revisit Wilson's "14 Points" then
compare and contrast it to the Atlantic Charter (located below).

Write a discussion response on one of the following topics:

1.the similarities or differences
2. the purpose
3. the desire for these post-war ideals

______________________________**__________

THE ATLANTIC CHARTER (1941)

The United States would not enter the war until after the Japanese
attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. But by the spring of 1941
Congress had approved the Lend Lease program, and the aid Roosevelt
had promised at Charlottesville had begun to flow to Great Britain,
where Winston Churchill was now prime minister. In July 1941,
Roosevelt and Churchill met for the first time in Argentia Bay off
Newfoundland, to issue a joint declaration on the purposes of the war
against fascism. Just as Wilson's Fourteen Points delineated the first
war, so the Atlantic Charter provided the criteria for the second.

Originally the Soviet Union, which had been attacked by Germany the
month before, was to sign the charter as well. But the notion of "one
world," in which nations abandoned their traditional beliefs in and
reliance upon military alliances and spheres of influence, did not
appeal to Joseph Stalin, and, in fact, neither was Churchill
particularly thrilled. Only Roosevelt, who had been a member of the
Wilson administration, truly believed in the possibility of a world
governed by democratic processes, with an international organization
serving as an arbiter of disputes and protector of the peace.

For further reading: James McGregor Burns, Roosevelt: The Soldier of
Freedom (1970); Gaddis Smith, American Diplomacy During the Second
World War (1964); and Robert Divine, Roosevelt and World War II
(1969).

______________________________**__________

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[Sarah ^^]

The similarities of the Atlantic Charter and Wilson's 14 points are obvious. First they are very similar in the way they fared. Both of them really just failed. In the 14 points all of them were ignored except the League of Nations. America had become suspicious of the it and decided not to join. Without America, the League of Nations was accepted but was twisted  into a way where it wasn't really even the League of Nations anymore. It was left almost with no impact when it came to stopping the growing power of Germany. Seeing that the Atlantic charter suggested that the U.S. was choosing sides with Britain's  indicating getting involved in the war thus resulting the " a joint declaration on the purposes of the war against fascism" although the U.S. hadn't joined the war further angering the Isolationists making the "new plan failing" as well.

 

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