Problem - NRZ: Mlada Zemlja
Den
jedna od onih gdje se iznose kvaziznanstvene nebuloze nego fascinantne
znanstveno utvrđene činjenice koje se drastično ne uklapaju u moderni
postdarvinistički evolucionizam. Gosti su bili Damir Gal iz Zagreba i
Miroljub Petrović iz Beograda, a tokom cijele emisije su iznosili isključivo
činjenice ili dobro fundirana promiąljanja.
Kako sam propustio prvi dio emisije, molio bih ako ima neka dobra duąa koja
ju je pratila cijelu da mi ukratko navede argumente koje je Miroljub
Petrović iznosio od početka pa sve do onog časa kad je voditelj nakratko
predstavio njegovu knjigu ili knjige na tu temu, kao i naslov knjige ili
knjiga, jer sam baą u tom času uključio TV i nisam odmah imao čist prijem pa
nisam mogao dobro vidjeti i čuti o čemu se radilo.
Unaprijed hvala!
Den
altazar
Uglavnom, zanimljiva emisija, viąe nego obično. Prezentirani su vrlo čvrsti
dokazi da Zemlja nije stara milijunima godina, nego moľda samo nekoliko
tisuća, ąto se poklapa s religijskim opisima.
Dokazi su npr. fosili riba koje jedu druge ribe - ąto znači da je
fosiliziranje nastopilo trenutačno, otisci dinosaurovih stopala u (okomitoj)
stijeni - vjerovatno su nastali u mekoj podlozi (blatu) koja je trenutačno
ispečena...
sinisa
"altazar" <radenk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e0sc20$b6a$1...@fegnews.vip.hr...
Fineas Vilmar
> Bit će ujutro repriza... Pokušat ću snimiti.
> Uglavnom, zanimljiva emisija, više nego obično. Prezentirani su vrlo čvrsti
> dokazi da Zemlja nije stara milijunima godina, nego možda samo nekoliko
> tisuća, što se poklapa s religijskim opisima.
>
> Dokazi su npr. fosili riba koje jedu druge ribe - što znači da je
> stijeni - vjerovatno su nastali u mekoj podlozi (blatu) koja je trenutačno
> ispečena...
Ajmo se smirit malo i ne zanosit oko tog "kreacionizma". Sve je ovo
moglo nastati i u shemu u kojoj je svemir star 15-ak milijardi godina, a
sama zemlja oko 5 milijardi. Svaka od tih cinjenica/fosila se moze
tumaciti na vise nacina.
Osobno bih bio skeptican prema takvim primislima, jerbo jer u
covjekovoj prirodi da uz sebe vezuje neki veci znacaj nego sto ga
stvarno ima, pogotovo u kontekstu kreacionizma, i ideje da je svijet
star otprilike koliko i pismo.
Mislim da je to nanovo otkrivanje kreacionizma posljedica toga sto je
kreacionizam, kao ideja, doslovno bio zatrt kroz duze vrijeme. I sad je
ta ideja kao opet "nova", probitacna, nasuprot golemoj dogmi evolucije.
Da li je koincidencija to sto se ovaj proces dogadja sa padajucim
interesom za prirodne znanosti ... nek vrag pogodi...
Quazaar
--
Disclaimer:
The quickest way to a man's heart is with Chuck Norris' fist.
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
altazar
"Fineas Vilmar" je napisao...
| Mislim da je to nanovo otkrivanje kreacionizma posljedica toga sto je
| kreacionizam, kao ideja, doslovno bio zatrt kroz duze vrijeme.
Moľda je posljedica napretka na području genetike.
Moja vizija stvaranja uključuje jedno plinovito stanje koje je prethodilo
ovom krutom, a bića koja poznajemo (uključujući i dinosaure) nastala su
involucijom - materijalizirala su se.
Pozdrav,
A.
Fineas Vilmar
> "Fineas Vilmar" je napisao...
> | Mislim da je to nanovo otkrivanje kreacionizma posljedica toga sto je
> | kreacionizam, kao ideja, doslovno bio zatrt kroz duze vrijeme.
>
Kako?
> Moja vizija stvaranja uključuje jedno plinovito stanje koje je prethodilo
> ovom krutom, a bića koja poznajemo (uključujući i dinosaure) nastala su
> involucijom - materijalizirala su se.
Docim validna ideja ... to mi se nekako cini natezanjem. No zasto ne
... moguce je da su ovaj planet platili stakori da bi dobili pitanje na
koje je odgovor 42... ili kak je to vec sve islo.
altazar
"altazar" je napisao...
| Bit će ujutro repriza... Pokuąat ću snimiti.
Nije bilo reprize. Moľda bude jednoga dana.
fra Ante
> Moja vizija stvaranja uključuje jedno plinovito stanje koje je prethodilo
> ovom krutom ...
Da, to je obichna pred - ekskrementacijska pojava: plinovito stanje
skoro uvjek prethodi krutom ... Stanje se naziva flatulentna predfecesna
abdominalna dekompresija ...
> a bića koja poznajemo (uključujući i dinosaure) nastala su
> involucijom - materijalizirala su se.
Ne, nego su se u procesu abruptne konvulzivne deopstipacije doslovce
ekskrementirala. To vazhi svakako i za dinosaure, narochito nekarnivorne
vrste, koje su zbog pretjerane ingestije Phaesolus vulgaris vulgaris iz
roda fabaceae sklone flatulentnoj rektalnoj dekompresiji ...
felix
Pozrav altazar!
> Bit æe ujutro repriza... Poku'at æu snimiti.
> Uglavnom, zanimljiva emisija, vi'e nego obièno. Prezentirani su vrlo èvrsti
> dokazi da Zemlja nije stara milijunima godina, nego mo≤da samo nekoliko
> tisuæa, 'to se poklapa s religijskim opisima.
>
> Dokazi su npr. fosili riba koje jedu druge ribe - 'to znaèi da je
> fosiliziranje nastopilo trenutaèno, otisci dinosaurovih stopala u (okomitoj)
> stijeni - vjerovatno su nastali u mekoj podlozi (blatu) koja je trenutaèno
> ispeèena...
Samo sam cekao da netko od doticne gospode spomene Altamiru ili
La-sko (kako se pise). Ili bilo koji od povijesnih artefakata kojima je
starost procjenjena na cca par 100.000 godina. Ili Lusy, kojoj je
starost procjenjena na ..2 mil godina:> A nisu spomenuli niti ostale
nacine mjerenja starosti.. poluraspada nekih radioaktivnih elemenata
koji su nadjeni na nekim (ljudskom?) RUKOM obradjenim kostima a starost
im se procjenjuje na cca 250.000 godina
U glavnom, IMHO dobra emisija koja pokazuje samo jedan pogled, jednu OD
teorija "koliko jke stara Zemlja" koja u svojoj teoriji ima dosta rupa.
Kao sto i teorija o par milijardi godina takodjer ima puno rupa.
Di je istina? tko zna:)
IMHO.. nasa poznata povijest pocinje od propasti Atlantide. Kao da je
sve ono prije jednostavno obisano iz sjecanja covjecanstva.Postavlja se
pitanje zasto. Sto je to vladalo covjecanstvom i kakvo je to bilo
covjecanstvo da je to trebalo kolektivno zaboraviti?
Zanimljivo je da tradicije svasta govore, a u akasi postoje nekoliko ..
"nivoa.. zastite prolaza" na sve sto je starije od 50.000 godina.
Zanimljvo:))
--
*******FELIX*******
Den
> Epizoda je bila po mom misljenju najbolja do sad i tjera te na
> razmisljanje
Je.
Den
OK, izgleda da nitko nije paľljivo pratio emisiju, pa ću pokuąati drugom
metodom. Pokuąat ću rekapitulirati sve čega se mogu sjetiti da je rečeno, pa
me onda vi moľete nadopuniti ako se sjetite nečeg ąto fali.
Ovako, prvo čega se sjećam bilo je o prisustvu fosila u planinama u kojima
se prema procjeni perioda izdizanja ne bi smjelo naći fosile. No tu negdje
sam tek počeo pratiti emisiju i nisam čuo argumentaciju, pa ako se netko
sjeća, nek se osjeti slobodnim izloľiti ono ąto zna.
Zatim se govorilo o istraľivanju erupcije Mount Helen koja je u nekoliko
dana ili tjedana preko ogromnih prostranstava uspjela oformiti naslage,
normalne i ukrątene slojeve i erozivne oblike za koje se do tada
pretpostavljalo da se moraju formirati milionima godina.
Zatim se govorilo o ispiranju sedimenata i taloľenju u moru,
pa onda o radioaktivnoj aureoli Polonija 218 u granitu u kojem se tako neąto
ne bi smjelo nalaziti ako se granit po cijeloj Zemlji nije skrutnuo odjednom
nego postepeno,
pa se govorilo o artefaktima o kojima si i ti, Altazare, pisao, stopama
dinosaura u vodenom pijesku koje voda nije stigla izbrisati zbog brzine
skrućivanja, fosiliziranim stablima u okomitim poloľajima između okomitih
slojeva, nastanku ugljena u vrlo kratkim vremenskim periodima koji ako se
produľe vode u truljenje, pa fosilima riba koje grizu drugu ribu, fosilima
jata ptica među ribama...
pa je bilo riječi o nekim vaľnim manjkavostima utvrđivanja starosti pomoću
radioaktivnih izotopa o kojima se ne govori često, plus manjkavosti
pretpostavki da su se svi procesi koje danas znamo i po kojima kalibriramo
svoje metode određivanja starosti uvijek odvijali na isti način i istim
tempom, uključujući radioaktivnost,
pa se neąto reklo i o nemogućnosti stvaranja ľivota iz mrtve materije
(kombinacijom atoma) zbog čega se materijalna evolucija pokazuje
nekonzistentna u konzekvencama...
zatim je bilo riječi o mjerenju Zemljinog magnetizma i utvrđivanju da on ne
moľe poticati iz povrąinske kore nego iz električnih struja ispod kore zbog
kojih je moguće iscrtati krivulju slabljenja polja po kojoj je Zemlja prije
nekoliko desetaka tisuća godina trebala imati magnetsko polje jakosti
neutronske zvijezde ili takvog nečeg...
i joą sam se sjetio da je u jednom dijelu emisije bilo govora o tome da se
teze i evolucionizma i kreacionizma mogu potpuno zanemariti, pa ipak, ako se
moľemo postaviti prema činjenicama na bezpredrasudan znanstveni način, onda
se po unutarnjoj dokaznoj snazi predočenih argumenata moľe doći jedino do
zaključka da su se svi procesi o kojima je bilo riječi i kojima
evolucionizam pripisuje trajanje reda veličine miliona godina, desili prije
najviąe desetak tisuća godina. Dakle ne obazirući se ni na kreacionizam ni
na evolucionizam, dolazi se do podataka koji se dobrim dijelom poklapaju sa
legendama i mitovima starih naroda, Biblije, Veda... po kojima se Zemlja
kakvu danas poznajemo oformila baą prije desetak tisuća godina. Kakva je
bila prije, o tome nije bilo riječi, osim ako nisam neąto propustio, a to se
nadam da će moľda neki čitatelj ispraviti.
engine
pričat bajke.
počevąi od aristotela ,ptolomeja i njegovog geocentričnog sustava pa nadalje
do tome akvinskog i eteričnog mjeseca i zvijezda koje pokreću anđeli itd. a
o bibliji ipak kao znanstvenoj knjizi nebih to moľe svatko proučit pa ako i
dalje vjeruje da zemlju podrľavaju stupovi kao i ľeljeznu(kasnije kristalnu)
nebesku kupolu u kojoj su rupe za svjetlo tj. prozori za kiąu + spremnici za
kiąu,snijeg i dr. koje bog po volji otvara kao vid kazne il nagrade ili za
proricanje + puno tog ąto ipak ni uz najbujniju maątu ima malo veze s ovim
svemirom koji gledamo i sluąamo onda mu čestitam na vjeri.
ąto se tiče nekih teorija u evoluciji zanimljiva mi je ona o nalazima oruđa
iz doba dinosaura ąto bi moglo značit da su neke vrste dinosaura mogle
razvit inteligenciju sličnu primatima.
"Den" <d...@deep.blue> wrote in message
news:e0sbf8$cd3$1...@garrison.globalnet.hr...
altazar
Pozrav felix!
Log time no see.
Sve što pišeš o blokadi svega starijeg od 50.000 godina, doživio sam i sam u
pokušajima da to shvatim. Jedino što mi je poznato su legende koje su došle
do mene na sasvim osoban način, recimo, legenda o Altazaru i zemlji Mu. Ali
ništa mi još nije jasno. Ali jest mi zanimljivo razmišljat o tim stvarima.
Čini mi se kako su nekim osobama, pojedinačno dostupni djelići te slike, te
vjerujem da će znanost prikupiti dovoljno puzzli, kockica, konkretnih
dokaza, pa sastaviti čvršću, realniju i svima prihvatljiviju teoriju o
nastanku Svemira i života. Život nastaje iz života. Smrt nestaje od života.
Vjerujem da će se iz prizme svake religije,
ta, naučna verzija postanka svijeta, moći percipirati kao potvrda vlastite
vjere, jednako kao i potvrda vjere ili nevjere svih ostalih pojedinačnih
duša i skupina duša, naroda, čovječanstva.
Još ću se vratiti ovom emailu.:))
***ALTAZAR***
http://napravitcusajtoaltazaru.:)
Ged
> altazar wrote:
>> "altazar" je napisao...
>>> Bit će ujutro repriza... Pokušat ću snimiti.
>>
>> Nije bilo reprize. Možda bude jednoga dana.
>
> OK, izgleda da nitko nije pažljivo pratio emisiju, pa ću pokušati drugom
> metodom. Pokušat ću rekapitulirati sve čega se mogu sjetiti da je rečeno,
> pa me onda vi možete nadopuniti ako se sjetite nečeg što fali.
Miroljub Petrović zaradjuje na tome. Osnovao je nesto sto on zove "Centar za
Prirodnjacke Studije" i krenuo u hiper produkciju prestampavanja
kreacionistickih pamfleta. Svi ovi argumenti su davno pobijeni. Ali, kad bi
to priznao, sta bi radio sa tolikim knjigama i video kasetama koje sada
treba menjati? Zato mudro cuti, a biznis ide. Svake godine stasava nova
generacija zeljna "mitoloske hrane" za dusu. Kreacionisti, dobro finansirani
od strane raznih religioznih fondacija, prava na svoje knjige daju ili
besplatno ili za vrlo malu nadoknadu. Tako se potpuno iste stare price
ponavljaju, demantuju, opet ponavljaju, opet demantuju, opet ponavljaju ...
i tako do beskonacnosti. Sada se otvaraju nova-stara YU trzista a Miroljub
vec ima spremne sve potrebne knjige koje ostaju "aktuelne" jednostavno tako
sto ce svi argumenti protiv njih biti ignorisani. Idealan biznis. Potreba
uvek postoji, investicija mala, a ima trajnu vrednost zato sto su ciljna
grupa vernici kojima je ugradjena ideja nepromenljivosti i vernosti jednom
prihvacenim verovanjima. Zato je uspeo da nastampa poprilicno materjala.
Koliko toga ima mozete videti na njegovom sajtu:
http://www.cps.org.yu/katalog.html
http://www.cps.org.yu/
A kakav je njihov propagandni nivo moz se videti vec i iz naslova koje nudi:
"Strahote koje je darvinizam doneo covecanstvu"
(na koricama, za nepismene, iza Darvina su nacrtani Hitler, Staljin, Mao
i Duče)
"Krah evolucije"
"Obmana evolucije"
"Zavera evolucije"
"Kolaps evolucije"
"Ikone evolucije"
"Mutne vode evolucije"
"Darvin na sudu"
"Od Darvina do Hitlera"
"Deco, Darvin nije znao istinu" ( za decu ! )
"Veliki prasak je eksplodirao"
"Poreklo: Od zabe do princa"
"Kada ljudska inteligencija postane majmunska"
( ovo poslednje je poseban primer besramnosti kreacionistickih tehnika
manipulacije. Koristi se naucna neobrazovanost vernika da im se podsvesno
sugerise da ih evolucionisti smatraju majmunima )
Zatim ide cela serija gde se sve prirodne pojave zovu cudima:
Cudo disanja, cudo ptica, cudo mrava, cudo semena, cuda u morima,
cudesna planeta ...
Njihova je svrha opet pretezno manipulativno-psiholoska jer nastoji da
ljudima promeni polaznu tacku gledista i kreira asocijativne veze
(u percepciju i opis se nasilno ubacuje interpretacija kojoj tu nije mesto).
Ako vas intersuju naucni odgovori pogledjate objasnjenja i linkove na
http://www.talkorigins.org/ i ovde
http://www.teorijaevolucije.com/
Jos jedno zapazanje na kraju.
Samo se u filozofiji i nauci covek nagradjuje zbog samog znanja, a ne zbog
nekog konkretnog sadrzaja tog znanja. Kad naucnik dokaze ili opovrgne neku
teoriju, on postaje podjednako "zasluzan" bez obzira da li ju je potvrdio
ili opovrgao. To je uvek doprinos znanju. U skoro svim drugim oblastima je
vazno koliko tragalac doprinosi odredjenom pozeljnom ishodu. To je tako u
politici, u reklami, u bracnim odnosima, u ekonomiji, u religiji,
prezivljavanju ... Uvek postoje ciljevi, neki *konkretni* pozeljni ishodi
ulozenih napora, pa se stimulise onaj ko im svojim traganjem doprinosi, a
destimulise onaj drugi. Samo u nauci, filozofiji i, mozda, umetnosti,
postoji apstraktno znanje, nezavisno od sadrzaja, kao cilj za sebe. Nesto
sto nema primenu (trenutno ili uopste). Zato samo tu mozemo smatrati da
izvesna objektivnost moze biti postignuta bez posebno komplikovanih
zastitnih mehanizama. Zbog toga smo, nazalost, u obicnom zivotu meta svih
mogucih spoljasnih uticaja cija je svrha da kontrolisu sta mislimo i radimo,
i prijemnik ogromne kolicine usmerenih i neobjektivnih informacija. Skepsa
je zato nuzna. Covek, medjutim, ne moze ziveti ne verujuci nikome nista. To
se i ne trazi. Poenta je samo da se u svim oblastima gde su vera ili
poverenje veoma bitni vodi racuna o ovoj opstoj zivotnoj istini.
Informacija je uvek ogranicena, po kolicini, vrednosti i pouzdanosti.
Ovo nije samo iskustveni vec i filozofski princip.
Kada je voditelj TV emisije sa kontraverznim sadrzajem spomenuo da je gost
napisao *vise* knjiga na tu temu, to je odmah morao da bude znak za uzbunu.
Gost dakle ima neki poseban interes ako je napisao vise knjiga. Koji je to
interes? Da li taj interes moze da utice da mu nije svejedno koju tezu
zastupa? To je, recimo, jedno od pitanja na koje se mora znati odgovor pre
prve procene pouzdanosti saopstenih informacija (ako nismo strucnjaci za tu
problematiku pa moramo da verujemo, inace je logicka greska ad-hominem). Ovo
je trivijalno uputstvo u recimo, politickim raspravama. Mi i ocekujemo da
ucesnici nece biti iskreni. Medjutim, trebalo bi da se isti princip
primenjuje i u drugim slucajevima. Ako se neko predtstavlja kao autoritet,
ne treba ga bezuslovno i prihvatati kao takvog, bez obzira sto je tema naoko
"bezbedna".
Ged
BBB
Ante"@samostan.rkc> wrote:
fra Ante puno prdis ... udario ti je grah u sustav dupe-glava!
Fineas Vilmar
> Pozrav felix!
>
> Log time no see.
>
> Sve što pišeš o blokadi svega starijeg od 50.000 godina, doživio sam i sam u
> pokušajima da to shvatim.
Ja, za divno cudo, nisam dozivio ikakvu blokadu tog tipa. Iskoristi
genetsko nasljedje.
fra Ante
Pusti ti svoja lichna osechanja do mene, poshtovani B^3. No, pohvala:
barem si djelomichno razumjeo moju parodiju. Radije se posvechuj
(kritichki, naravno) blesavom cre(a)ti(o)nism, koji po ovim grupama neki
"struchno" prodaju. Da, dobro si prochitao: blesavom kretenizmu, kojeg
osudjuje (chak!) i Crkva (katolichka, naravno) ...
altazar
"Fineas Vilmar" je napisao...
| Ja, za divno cudo, nisam dozivio ikakvu blokadu tog tipa.
| Iskoristi genetsko nasljedje.
Moguće je da različitost duąe djeteta u odnosu na tatu i mamu, dvije bake i
dva djeda, četiri prabake i četiri pradjeda... dolazi mijeąanjem gena,
međutim, ja sam od djetinjstva vjerovao u reinkarnaciju, to me nitko nije
naučio, nego sam se rodio s tim. Ipak, _vjerujem_ da moju duąu (kao ni bilo
čiju) nisu stvorili geni predaka. Ona je sasvim odvojena od tjelesnog,
genetskog nasljeđa.
Istraľivanja kakvima se bavila ova emisija "Na rubu znanosti", usmjerena su
na materijalne, arheoloąke nalaze.
Kostur čovjeka premalo govori o duąi čovjeka koja je to tijelo nastanjivala.
Samo bi oľivljavanje (uskrsavanje) takvog čovjeka omogućilo puniji uvid u
njegov duhovni svijet.
Evolucionisti su uglavnom slijepi za duhovno područje, pretpostavljajući da
smrću čovjeka prestaje njegovo postojanje, osm u genima potomaka.
Kreacionisti zastupaju meni zanimljivije stavove i mnogo sloľenija
objaąnjenja o postanku.
®ivot je prisutan na ovom planetu, u to nema sumnje. Otkriveni su i tragovi
izumrlih bića. Vjerujem da su joą mnoga bića postojala, pa nestala. Čvrsto
vjerujem da ima ľivota i u drugim dijelovima Svemira. Logičniji mi je
zaključak da ľivot nastaje iz ľivota, nego da nastaje iz nečeg mrtvog, iz
ničega. Dakle, ja sam kreacionist, involucionist.
BBB
Ante"@samostan.rkc> wrote:
Ne podcjenjuj me ni kad ti ne donosim poklone kao Danajci! Skuzio sam
ja vise nego ti mislis! Nastavi svoju digestiju, a zanemari sugestiju,
svatko, pa i ti, ima pravo na zabludu! Jedino je pozitivno da je malo
zivnulo na grupi!
Fineas Vilmar
> "Fineas Vilmar" je napisao...
> | Ja, za divno cudo, nisam dozivio ikakvu blokadu tog tipa.
> | Iskoristi genetsko nasljedje.
>
> dva djeda, četiri prabake i četiri pradjeda... dolazi miješanjem gena,
> genetskog nasljeđa.
U nedostatku dokazivijeg objasnjenja, i ovo je dobro. No tvoja
razlicitost od tvojih roditelja ne mora imati ikakve veze sa tvojom
dusom. Postoji puno stvari koje su se tebi dogodile, a koje se tvojim
roditeljima ponaosob nisu, i obratno. Exponentiraj to sa bakama i djedama.
Cinjenica jest da genetski kod nije arhitekturalni nacrt, nego recept.
To je dokazala i klonirala ovca Dolly koja je ispala 30% veca ili manja
od originalne jedinke.
Tvoja jedinstvenost ne mora imati ikakve veze s dushom.
> Istraživanja kakvima se bavila ova emisija "Na rubu znanosti", usmjerena su
> na materijalne, arheološke nalaze.
Pa, koliko sam skuzio, uglavnom se i radi o alternativnim
objasnjenjima, i kao takva, emisija je od iznimne vaznosti.
> Kostur čovjeka premalo govori o duši čovjeka koja je to tijelo nastanjivala.
> Samo bi oživljavanje (uskrsavanje) takvog čovjeka omogućilo puniji uvid u
> njegov duhovni svijet.
Mozda. I dobro si rekao. Uskrsavanje, ne kloniranje.
> Evolucionisti su uglavnom slijepi za duhovno područje, pretpostavljajući da
> smrću čovjeka prestaje njegovo postojanje, osm u genima potomaka.
Slazem se. No dusa je ionako samo nespretna aproksimacija nastala nasim
nerazumjevanjem onoga sto se dogadja u mozgu, i strahom od smrti, te
tisucljecima obecavanja zagrobnog zivota.
> Kreacionisti zastupaju meni zanimljivije stavove i mnogo složenija
> objašnjenja o postanku.
Da nisam upoznat sa principom KISS (keep it simple, stupid!), mozda bi
i ja bio zaintrigiraniji za njihove ideje. Ovako, docim mi sama
intelektualna gimnastika definiranja tog "slozenijeg" postanka nije
nezanimljiva, vise me zanima zasto netko zeli dokazati neku teoriju koju
se mozse svrstati pod kreacionizam.
> Život je prisutan na ovom planetu, u to nema sumnje. Otkriveni su i tragovi
> izumrlih bića. Vjerujem da su još mnoga bića postojala, pa nestala. Čvrsto
> vjerujem da ima života i u drugim dijelovima Svemira. Logičniji mi je
> zaključak da život nastaje iz života, nego da nastaje iz nečeg mrtvog, iz
> ničega. Dakle, ja sam kreacionist, involucionist.
Hmmm, termin "logicnije" nije semanticki opravdan.
Ja nemam problema s idejom da je zivot nastao iz nezivosti, i da svako
moje stvarno postojanje prestaje kad umrem. Isto tako, nemam problema ni
sa reinkarnacijom, rajem, paklom, Valhallom itd.
No ono sto mi genetsko nasljedje nalaze jest da se zapitam zato je
nekom covjeku, prije puno puno godina, na pamet pao koncept npr
reinkarnacije.
Problem zadrtosti oko evolucije jest materijalizam. Problem zadrtosti
oko kreacionizma je strah od smrti. Kada slusam te neke teorije, sve se
cinjenice nekako nasilu zele ugurati u nekakav model, nebi li to ispalo
utjesno za silne mase ljudi silno uplasenih kraja. Plus inherentan otpor
promjenjivosti svemira koji je u svima nama. Inercija, i racionalizacija
iste.
felix
Pozdrav altazar!
>
> Sve 'to pi'e' o blokadi svega starijeg od 50.000 godina, do≤ivio sam i sam u
> poku'ajima da to shvatim. Jedino 'to mi je poznato su legende koje su do'le
> do mene na sasvim osoban naèin, recimo, legenda o Altazaru i zemlji Mu. Ali
> ni'ta mi jo' nije jasno. Ali jest mi zanimljivo razmi'ljat o tim stvarima.
Da, nisi jedini. Spominje se Zemlja Mu, ili Zemlja Velikih Crvenih
Glinenih Piramida, pa Lemurija, pa Atlantida..
Svaka od njih je propala nakon neke velike katastrofe. "velike vatre"
(vulkani), "velike vode (potop)" .. itd.
Sjecanja na te davne civilizacije su zakljucana i ljudski um ima
dostupnost samo do Atlantide i to zadnjih .. desetak tisuca godina
postojanja Atlantide.. naravno ako uzmemo u obzir da je Posejdonis
propao prije 8.800 godina BC. I to je tih 10.000 godina o kojima se
govori .. "planeta zemlja je nastala u sedam dana, prije 10.000 godina".
Da, OVAKVA planeta Zemlja JE nastala prije cca 10.000 godina. Sto je sa
onom planetom Zemljom koja je bila prije nje? ako je ona izgledala?
> Èini mi se kako su nekim osobama, pojedinaèno dostupni djeliæi te slike, te
> vjerujem da æe znanost prikupiti dovoljno puzzli, kockica, konkretnih
> dokaza, pa sastaviti èvr'æu, realniju i svima prihvatljiviju teoriju o
> nastanku Svemira i ≤ivota. ®ivot nastaje iz ≤ivota. Smrt nestaje od ≤ivota.
Postoji dosta teorija. Jedna od njih je da je Svevisnji pucnuo
prstima i rekao "neka bude svjetlost" i svemir je nastao u djelicu
vremena.. nakod sest dana.
Neki vele da je cijeli Svemir puno puno stariji nego sto to mi mislimo i
da su prije "naseg Velikog Praska" postojali nebrojeni "Veliki Praskovi"
i da ce poslije naseg "vremena postojanja" takodjer biti nebrojano
Velikih praskova... i tako stalnoo..... i da sto je jako zanimljivo ako
tako razmisljamo da pojam koji mi znamo kao "vrijeme" ne tece linearno..
No.. sto je istina?
> Vjerujem da æe se iz prizme svake religije,
> ta, nauèna verzija postanka svijeta, moæi percipirati kao potvrda vlastite
> vjere, jednako kao i potvrda vjere ili nevjere svih ostalih pojedinaènih
> du'a i skupina du'a, naroda, èovjeèanstva.
>
> Jo' æu se vratiti ovom emailu.:))
Nadajmo se ;))))
--
*******FELIX*******
Den
> Miroljub Petrović zaradjuje na tome. Osnovao je nesto sto on zove
> "Centar za Prirodnjacke Studije" i krenuo u hiper produkciju
> prestampavanja kreacionistickih pamfleta. Svi ovi argumenti su davno
> pobijeni. Ali, kad bi to priznao, sta bi radio sa tolikim knjigama i
> video kasetama koje sada treba menjati? Zato mudro cuti, a biznis
> ide. Svake godine stasava nova generacija zeljna "mitoloske hrane" za
> dusu. Kreacionisti, dobro finansirani od strane raznih religioznih
> fondacija, prava na svoje knjige daju ili besplatno ili za vrlo malu
> nadoknadu. Tako se potpuno iste stare price ponavljaju, demantuju,
> opet ponavljaju, opet demantuju, opet ponavljaju ... i tako do
> beskonacnosti. Sada se otvaraju nova-stara YU trzista a Miroljub vec
> ima spremne sve potrebne knjige koje ostaju "aktuelne" jednostavno
> tako sto ce svi argumenti protiv njih biti ignorisani. Idealan
> biznis.
> Ged
Bok, Gede,
Zahvaljujem na iscrpnom komentaru. Izloľio si dosta toga ąto mi je bilo
nepoznato ili o čemu jednostavno nisam razmiąljao, ali i neąto ąto sam već
uzeo u obzir prilikom slanja poruka, ali nisam naročito naglasio. Ja naime
nisam sputan bilo evolucionističkim bilo kreacionističkim glediątem i
usmjerenjem, već slobodno ispitujem činjenično stanje, ostajući otvoren za
sve mogućnosti. Nisu mi na prvom mjestu kreacionizam ili evolucionizam, nego
ono ąto u pogledu objaąnjenja nastanka svijeta i čovjeka treba doći u obzir,
pa ma ąto bilo. Mislim da je takav duh kod pristupa temi zadnje emisije NRZ
jasno uočljiv u mojim porukama na koje odgovaraą, a ako nije, pokuąat ću ga
učiniti uočljivijim:
Do sada na newsima nisam pronaąao pisca koji bi me viąe od tebe zadivio
ąirinom, poznavanjem i primjenom znanstvenih i filozofskih metoda
pri obradi bilo kojeg problema o kojem se na grupama o religiji i znanosti
raspravljalo. Kroz čitanje tvojih tekstova počeo sam naročito cijeniti
upućenost, stručnost, znanje o konkretnim odnosima između stvari koje se
filozofsko misaonim radom proučava. Ali niąta nije samo po sebi dobro ili
loąe, pa tako mora biti i sa znanjem. Kad neąto ľelimo pojmiti, onda se
znanje treba privremeno maknuti s pijedestala vladara spoznajnog ľivota, da
napravi mjesta miąljenju. Kad smo posljednji put razgovarali, (ne ulazeći u
to jesam li govorio ispravno ili ne) nisi me razumio jer nisi dozvolio da se
nit misli o kojoj smo raspravljali razvije cijelom duľinom, već si je
prekidao zatrpavajući me gomilom dotad stečenog znanja s kojim su iznesene
ideje stajale u suprotnosti. Na taj je način tvoje znanje uzurpiralo poloľaj
koji mu u tom času nije trebao pripasti, i postalo je predrasuda. Uz svo
duľno i iskreno poątovanje, mislim da i ovaj put činią istu greąku. Znanje
nastaje tako da se neku misao dovoljno jako proľivi kroz promatranje i
udubljivanje. Znanje se skuplja miąljenjem, ono je metamorfozirano
miąljenje, i stoga ima istu slabu točku koju ima i miąljenje: naąu
podloľnost iluziji. Zato je potrebno uvijek biti spreman uąutkati ga i
provjeriti ne upućuje li nas neko novo iskustvo na reviziju dotad stečenih
znanja.
Primjenimo to na konkretnom primjeru tvog prigovora stvarima koje je iznio
gospodin Petrović. Rekao si da gospodin Miroljub Petrović zaradjuje na
manipulaciji i plasiranju znanstveno oborenih kreacionističkih teza
neobrazovanim vjernicima. Upozorio si da nam se trebalo aktivirati zvono za
uzbunu čim smo obavjeąteni da gospodin Petrović izdaje i knjige o tim
stvarima. Dao si i link ( http://www.talkorigins.org/ ) da bi se moglo
informirati kako je znanstveno utvrđena prava istina o kreacionističkim
zabludama i manipulacijama, i zauzeti ispravan stav prema onome ąto je
iznio gospodin Petrović. Pa da pogledamo o čemu ti to zapravo pričaą.
Uzmimo na primjer izvjeątaj o otkriću Roberta Gentryja, koji je pronaąao
radioaktivnu aureolu polonija 218 u granitu gdje se ne bi smjela nalaziti
ako je granit nastao dugotrajnim hlađenjem kako tvrde evolucionisti, jer
raspad koji uzrokuje halo traje samo nekoliko dana, pa bi se tokom
dugotrajnih perioda skrućivanja izgubio sav radioaktivni materijal koji moľe
biti jedini izvor efekta. Pozivaą se na http://www.talkorigins.org/ . Da
vidimo ąto oni kaľu:
Claim CF201:
Some micas in granite have tiny haloes caused by the decay of radioactive
elements. From their diameters, we know the energy of the alpha particles
that caused the haloes, which tells us what element decayed. Some of these
haloes formed from isotopes of polonium, all of which have short half-lives
(138 days for the longest-lived isotope). According to conventional geology,
the rocks in which the polonium radio-haloes occur took millions of years to
form. All of the original polonium should have decayed in that time. Thus
polonium radio-haloes indicate a sudden creation of polonium in rock.
Source:
Gentry, R. V., 1986. Creation's Tiny Mystery. Knoxville, TN: Earth Science
Associates.
Snelling, A. A., 2000. Polonium radiohaloes: Still "a very tiny mystery".
Impact 326 (Aug.), i-iv.
Response:
1.. Polonium forms from the alpha decay of radon, which is one of the
decay products of uranium. Since radon is a gas, it can migrate through
small cracks in the minerals. The fact that polonium haloes are found only
associated with uranium (the parent mineral for producing radon) supports
this conclusion, as does the fact that such haloes are commonly found along
cracks (Brawley 1992; Wakefield 1998).
2.. The biotite in which Gentry (1986) obtained some of his samples
(Fission Mine and Silver Crater locations) was not from granite, but from a
calcite dike. The biotite formed metamorphically as minerals in the walls of
the dike migrated into the calcite. Biotite from the Faraday Mine came from
a granite pegmatite that intruded a paragneiss that formed from highly
metamorphosed sediments. Thus, all of the locations Gentry examined show
evidence of an extensive history predating the formation of the micas; they
show an appearance of age older than the three minutes his polonium halo
theory allows. It is possible God created this appearance of age, but that
reduces Gentry's argument to the omphalos argument, for which evidence is
irrelevant (Wakefield 1998).
3.. Stromatolites are found in rocks intruded by (and therefore older
than) the dikes from which Gentry's samples came, showing that living things
existed before the rocks that Gentry claimed were primordial (Wakefield
1998).Links:Brawley, John. 1992. Evolution's tiny violences: The Po-halo
mystery. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/violences.html
Znači u prvoj točci ukazuje se na rad Brawleya i prenosi se njegovo
miąljenje da je Gentry pogreąno pripisao poloniju halo efekt radona.
No ako se pogleda o čemu se radi na
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/violences.html , vidi se da John
Brawley u podugačkom tekstu (kojeg zbog duľine neću prenositi) opisuje svoja
razmiąljanja i nepotpun postupak provjere Gentryjevog rada tokom kojeg
najprije nakon iskopavanja i snimanja priznaje da nije baą stručnjak za
kemiju, tako da interpretacija nekih procesa na osnovu kojih je doąao do
svojih zaključaka zahtijeva dodatno ispitivanje ("..." My knowledge of
chemistry is limited, however, so this idea needs further work "..."), a
zatim kaľe da je na kraju doąao do tri prijedloga za testiranje radonove
teze koja bi trebala pobiti Gentryjev rad, ali ne i do sredstava da to
testiranje provede. Konačno konstatira samo da na osnovu parcijalnog
ispitivanja i razmiąljanja o njemu vjeruje da Gentry grijeąi, i da se radi o
radonu a ne poloniju.
Dakle prvi evolucionistički "znanstveni" odgovor na Gentryjevo ispitivanje
je čvrsto uvjerenje da grijeąi bazirano na nepotpunom pripremanju za
provjeru i puno optimizma.
U drugoj točci se kaľe da dio Gentryjevih uzoraka nije granitnog porijekla,
dok ostatak potječe s lokacija na kojima se bez ikakve sumnje moľe
utvrditi tragove postojanja koji su prethodili nastanku granita u kojem se
naąlo polonijev halo efekt.
Znači tu se uopće ne mari za znanstveno utvrđene činjenice, ne ľeli ih se
opovrći ili potvrditi ili drugačije interpretirati, već se samo nastoji
ukazati na nemogućnost njihovog koriątenja kao argumenta za kreacionističku
tezu o trenutnom boľjem stvaranju ili kako se već zove. Ne nastoji se
ispitati ąto se doista događalo s tim granitom za vrijeme skrućivanja,
poslije i prije toga. Samo se napada ideja kreacionizma i tu se staje.
Sličan je argument i u točci tri. On samo dodatno upozorava da u nekim
slojevima do Gentryjevih ima nalaza koji pokazuju da je prije skrućivanja
granita već postojao i sam ľivot, čime se opet jedino pobija kreacionistička
predodľba stvaranja. Na kraju ispada da su ti evolucionistički "znanstveni
argumenti" o Gentryjevu otkriću zapravo samo viąe ili manje opravdane
općenite kritike kreacionizma, bez prevelike povezanosti s konkretnom
stvarnoąću.
Kad se joą prisjetimo kritika slične vrste koje kreacionisti upućuju
evolucionizmu, dobije se kompletna slika na kojoj kreacionisti i
evolucionisti zapravo samo nastoje jedni druge utjerati u laľ ili pokazati
da pričaju gluposti, dok objektivno proučavanje ąto se doista zbivalo sa
svijetom i čovjekom u ta davna vremena baą i nije predmet njihovog interesa!
Znanstven pristup, nema ąto :)
S druge strane, također na http://www.talkorigins.org/ , imamo joą neąto o
Robertu Gentryju:
Claim CA325:
Creationists cannot get their views accepted by mainstream science because
they are prevented from publishing in mainstream scientific journals.
Source:
Morris, Henry M. 1998. Bigotry in science. Back To Genesis 114a (June).
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=840
Response:
1.. The priorities of creationism are politics and religious evangelism.
Science is not very important to creationists in the first place. The main
reason that they do not get published in reputable science journals is that
they do not try to publish there. In a survey of editors of sixty-eight
journals, only eighteen out of an estimated 135,000 submissions were found
that could be described as advocating creationism (Scott and Cole 1985).
In the McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education creationism trial, the
creationists complained to the judge that the scientific journals refused to
consider their articles, but they were unable to produce any articles that
had been refused publication.
2.. Creationists are free to publish in other venues, such as books and
their own journals. These venues are as reputable as their authors and
editors. Note that Darwin's major works were published in books.
3.. Creationists do get published in reputable peer-reviewed science
journals when they do real science. For example:
a.. Steven A. Austin, Gordon W. Franz, and Eric G. Frost, "Amos's
Earthquake: An Extraordinary Middle East Seismic Event of 750 B.C."
(International Geology Review 42: 657, 2000)
b.. Leonard Brand on the Flood deposition interpretation of Coconino
Sandstone (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 28: 25-38,
1979; Geology 19: 1201-1204, 1991; Journal of Paleontology 70: 1004-1011,
1996)
c.. Harold G. Coffin on deposition environments of fossil trees (Journal
of Paleontology 50: 539-543, 1976; Geology 11: 298-299, 1983)
d.. Robert Gentry on polonium haloes (American Journal of Physics,
Proceedings 33: 878A, 1965; Science 184: 62-64, 1974; Science 194: 315-318,
1976)
e.. Grant Lambert on DNA error rates (Journal of Theoretical Biology
107: 387-403, 1984)
f.. Jan Peckzis on mass estimates of dinosaurs (Journal of Theoretical
Biology 132: 509-510, 1988; Journal of Paleontology 63: 947-950, 1989;
Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 14: 520-533, 1995)
g.. Sigfried Scherer on ducks as a single kind (Journal für Ornithologie
123: 357-380, 1982; Zeitschrift für zoologische Systematik und
Evolutionsforschung 24: 1-19, 1986)
h..
In addition, many creationists have published science articles not
related to creationism.
i.. Scientists themselves are prevented from publishing in peer-reviewed
journals when their science is not up to par. The peer-review process
prevents lots of substandard work from being published, even from
noncreationists such as myself. (The process, of course, is imperfect and
produces a substantial borderline area, so some fairly good articles get
rejected and some fairly poor ones get accepted. On the whole, however, it
keeps quality up.) Creationists face no obstacles that mainstream scientists
do not face themselves.
j.. Creationists prevent others from publishing critical views in
creationist journals. Glenn Morton, for example, has had papers rejected by
the Creation Research Society Quarterly for violating their view that the
Flood must be global and for criticizing Carl Froede's poor geology (Morton
1998).
Dakle, Gede, na kraju vidimo da sam znanstveni svijet priznaje znanstvenu
dosljednost Robertu Gentryju navodeći ga kao primjer znanstvenika koji ima
pristup znanstvenoj zajednici onih koji su se iste pokazali vrijednim. I to
joą kaľe http://www.talkorigins.org/ kojeg ti navodią kao sajt u kojega se
moľe pouzdati u opovrgavanju neznanstvenih priča koje je gospodin Petrović
ispričao o Robertu Gentryju! A uopće nisam uzeo u obzir sve one pohvale koje
su mu uputili pojedini stručnjaci i koje su citirane na kreacionističkom
sajtu http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/04earth5.htm .
Prema tome, ako bismo iąli poąteno ocjenjivati koliko je na mjestu tvoj
prigovor u kojem sva otkrića koja pobijaju materijalistički evolucionizam
svodią na kreacionističku neznanstvenu podvalu, a sve one koji o tim
otkrićima pričaju na profitere i manipulatore, mislim da ne bi dobio odličnu
ocjenu.
Postoje i druge mogućnosti za objaąnjenje nastanka Zemlje i čovjeka kakvi su
danas, nije sve ąto se moľe reći sadrľano u modernom evolucionizmu i
kreacionizmu. Da evolucija postoji, u to nimalo ne sumnjam. Da svijet nije
mogao nastati iscuclavajući samog sebe iz malog prsta - ni u to ne sumnjam.
Problem nastaje kad te dvije suprotnosti pokuąam spojiti u jednu cjelinu.
Znam da je taj problem moľda teąko rjeąiv, ali znam i da postoje veliki
izgledi da ga nikada nećemo rjeąiti ako mu budemo pristupali s predrasudama,
omalovaľavanjem i ocrnjivanjem ljudi.
Smola
> Zanimljivo je da tradicije svasta govore, a u akasi postoje nekoliko ..
U cemu? Sto trebam upisat u Google, molim? ,)
felix
Pozdrav Smola!
> > Zanimljivo je da tradicije svasta govore, a u akasi postoje nekoliko ..
>
> U cemu? Sto trebam upisat u Google, molim? ,)
U Akashi. A da probas "upisati u sebe"?? Neke stvari jednostavno
nisu predvidjene da se traze VAN SEBE jer ne postoje izvan nas.
Ne shvatiti doslovno.
--
*******FELIX*******
Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
> nisu predvidjene da se traze VAN SEBE jer ne postoje izvan nas.
>
> Ne shvatiti doslovno.
>
tema NRZ niti imaju veze sa topicom.
Zaista ne kuzim zato Felix ima i dalje potrebu blefirati. Nesto time lijeci?
Smola
Iz Wikipedie:
"The Akashic Records (Akasha is a Sanskrit word meaning "sky", "space"
or "aether") are said to be a collection of mystical knowledge that is
stored in the aether; i.e. on a non-physical plane of existence."
felix
Pozdarav Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman!
> > U Akashi. A da probas "upisati u sebe"?? Neke stvari jednostavno
> > nisu predvidjene da se traze VAN SEBE jer ne postoje izvan nas.
> >
> > Ne shvatiti doslovno.
> >
> Shvatiti ovo iskljucivo kao blefiranje. Dogadjaji koji postoje u nama nisu
> tema NRZ niti imaju veze sa topicom.
Ovo sto sam napisao itekako ima veze sa temom. NE SA EMISIJOM!! Ali
sa temom da. Nisam ja kriv sto ti tvoja ogranicenost i TVOJE NE imanje
iskustva sprjecava da skuzis o cemu se pise i to proglasavas
blefiranjem. No posto je od tebe, to mi je normalno. .
> Zaista ne kuzim zato Felix ima i dalje potrebu blefirati. Nesto time lijeci?
Zaista ne kuzim sto te sprjecava da KONACNO TO SAM ISPROBAS i SAM se
uvjeris. Cega se bojis?? Naravno d aje lakse proglasiti nekog bleferom
umjesto se malo pomuiciti. No to je kod ljudi kao sto si ti, normalno.
Ono sto TI ne mozes, ne zelis, ne znas, nemres skuzit .. to je sigurno
blef. da.. aha..da, naravno.. hau jes no ;))))))))))
Elvise. USUDI SE. Pobjedi strah od nepoznatog. Pobjedi strah od mracne
sobe.
--
*******FELIX*******
Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
> or "aether") are said to be a collection of mystical knowledge that is
> stored in the aether; i.e. on a non-physical plane of existence."
>
Tako je. Prema istrazivanjima ruskih znanstvenika ali poznatog SHARP tima,
te se informacije cuvaju u spinskim modovima kvantnog vakuma
(Einstein-Cartan Theory).
Pogledati radove:
P.P.Gariaev, K.V. Grigor'ev, A.A. Vasil'ev, V.P. Poponin and V.A. Shcheglov,
"Investigation of the fluctuation dynamics of DNA solutions by laser
correlation spectro- scopy," Bulletin of the Lebedev Physics Institute No.
11- 12, 1999, pp. 23- 30;
V.P. Poponin, "Modeling of NLE dynamics in one dimensional anharmonic FPU-
lattice", Physics Letters A
Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
Subtle Connections:
Psi, Grof, Jung, and the Quantum Vacuum
Ervin Laszlo
The International Society for the Systems Sciences
and The Club of Budapest
Copyright Ervin Laszlo 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are human beings entirely discrete individuals, their organism enclosed by
the skin and their minds enclosed by the cranium housing the brain? Or are
there effective, if subtle, interconnections between humans — and between
humans and the world at large? This study argues that the latter assumption
is likely to be true. Though the evidence for "subtle connections" is not in
the form of incontrovertible "hard data" it is nevertheless cogent and
significant. The directly pertinent findings are generated by research on
psi- phenomena and the practice of psychotherapists. Possible explanations
for the findings can be traced to the ideas of Carl Jung, and are now
pursued at the leading edge of the physical sciences.
The Findings: (i) Psi experiments
Controlled experiments concerning subtle connections between subjects
removed in space, and occasionally also in time, date back to back to the
1930s, to J.B. Rhine's pioneering card-and dice-guessing work at Duke
University. Since then experimental designs have become sophisticated and
experimental controls rigorous; physicists have often joined psychologists
in carrying out the tests. Explanations in terms of hidden sensory cues,
machine bias, cheating by subjects, and experimenter error or incompetence
have all been considered, but they were found unable to account for a number
of statistically significant results.
Relevant work began in the 1970s, when Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff
carried out some of the best known experiments on subtle connections among
distant subjects in regard to the transference of thoughts and images. They
examined the possibility of telepathic transmission between individuals, one
of whom would act as "sender" and the other as "receiver." The receiver was
placed in a sealed, opaque and electrically shielded chamber, while the
sender was in another room where he or she was subjected to bright flashes
of light at regular intervals. Electroencephalograph (EEG) machines
registered the brain- wave patterns of both. As expected, the sender
exhibited the rhythmic brain waves that normally accompany exposure to
bright flashes of light. But, after a brief interval the receiver also began
to produce the same patterns, although he or she was not exposed to the
flashes and was not receiving sense-perceivable signals from the sender.
Targ and Puthoff also conducted experiments on remote viewing. In these
tests sender and receiver were separated by distances that precluded any
form of sensory communication between them. At a site chosen at random, the
sender acted as a "beacon"; the receiver then tried to pick up what the
beacon saw. To document his or her impressions, the receiver gave verbal
descriptions, at times accompanied by sketches. Independent judges found
that the descriptions of the sketches matched on the average 66 percent of
the time the characteristics of the site that was actually seen by the
beacon.[1]
Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff, "Information transmission under conditions
of sensory shielding," in Nature, Volume 251, 1974; Russell Targ and K.
Harary, The Mind Race, New York: Villard Books, 1984; Harold E. Puthoff and
Russell Targ, "A perceptual channel for information transfer over kilometer
distances: historical perspective and recent research" Proceedings of the
IEEE, Vol. 64, 1976.
Remote viewing experiments reported from other laboratories involved
distances from half a mile to several thousand miles. Regardless of where
they were carried out, and by whom, the success rate was generally around
fifty percent — considerably above random probability. The most successful
viewers appeared to be those who were relaxed, attentive, and meditative.
They reported that they received a preliminary impression as a gentle and
fleeting form which gradually evolved into an integrated image. They
experienced the image as a surprise, both because it was clear and because
it was clearly elsewhere.
Images could also be transmitted while the receiver is asleep. Over several
decades, Stanley Krippner and his associates carried out "dream ESP
experiments" at the Dream Laboratory of Maimondes Hospital in New York
City.[2] The experiments followed a simple yet effective protocol. The
volunteer, who would spend the night at the laboratory, would meet the
sender and the experimenters on arrival and had the procedure explained to
him or her. Electrodes were then attached to the volunteer's head to monitor
brain waves and eye movements; there was no further sensory contact with the
sender until the next morning. One of the experimenters threw dice that, in
combination with a random number table, gave a number that corresponded to a
sealed envelope containing an art print. The envelope was opened when the
sender reached his or her private room in a distant part of the hospital.
The sender then spent the night concentrating on the print.
The experimenters woke the volunteers by intercom when the monitor showed
the end of a period of rapid eye-movement (REM) sleep. The subject was then
asked to describe any dream he or she might have had before awakening. The
comments were recorded, together with the contents of an interview the next
morning when the subject was asked to associate with the remembered dreams.
The interview was conducted double blind — neither the subject nor the
experimenters knew which art print had been selected the night before.
Using data taken from the first night that each volunteer spent at the dream
laboratory, the series of experiments between 1964 and 1969 produced 62
nights of data for analysis. They exhibited a significant correlation
between the art print selected for a given night and the recipient's dreams
on that night. The score was considerably higher on nights when there were
few or no electrical storms in the area and sunspot activity was at a low
ebb — that is, when the Earth's geomagnetic field was relatively
undisturbed.
A particularly striking example of transpersonal contact and com-munication
has been the work of Jacobo Grinberg-Zylverbaum at the National University
of Mexico.[3] In more than fifty experiments performed over five years,
Grinberg-Zylberbaum paired his subjects inside sound-and electro-magnetic
radiation-proof "Faraday cages." He asked them to meditate together for
twenty minutes. Then he placed the subjects in separate Faraday cages where
one of them was stimulated and the other not. The stimulated subject
received stimuli at random intervals in suh a way that neither he or she,
nor the experimenter, knew when they were applied. The non-stimulated
subject remained relaxed, with eyes closed, instructed to feel the presence
of the partner without knowing anything about his or her stimulation.
In general, a series of one hundred stimuli were applied — flashes of light,
sounds, or short, intense but not painful electric shocks to the index and
ring fingers of the right hand. The EEG of both subjects was then
synchronized and examined for "normal" potentials evoked in the stimulated
subject and "transferred" potentials in the non-stimulated subject.
Transferred potentials were not found in control situations where there was
either no stimulated subject; or when a screen prevented the stimulated
subject from perceiving the stimuli (such as light flashes); or else when
the paired subjects did not previously interact. However, in experimental
situations with stimulated subjects and with interaction, the transferred
potentials appeared consistently in some 25 percent of the cases. A
particularly poignant example was furnished by a young couple, deeply in
love. Their EEG patterns remained closely synchronized throughout the
experiment, testifying to their report of feeling a deep oneness.
In a limited way, Grinberg-Zylberbaum could also replicate his results. When
a subject exhibited the transferred potentials in one experiment, he or she
usually exhibited them in subsequent experiments as well.
A related experiment investigated the degree of harmonization of the left
and right hemispheres of the subject's neocortex. In ordinary waking
consciousness the two hemispheres — the language-oriented, linearly thinking
rational "left brain" and the gestalt-perceiving intuitive "right brain" —
exhibit uncoordinated, randomly diverging wavepatterns in the
electroencelograph. When the subject enters a meditative state of
conscious-ness, these patterns become synchronized, and in deep meditation
the two hemispheres fall into a nearly identical pattern. In deep meditation
not only the left and right brains of one and the same subject, also the
left and right brains of different subjects manifest identical patterns.
Experiments with up to twelve subjects simultaneously showed an astonishing
synchronization of the brain-waves of the entire group.[4]
In the past few years experiments such as these have been matched by
hundreds of others. They provide significant evidence that identifiable and
consistent electrical signals occur in the brain of one person when a second
person, especially if he or she is closely related or emotionally linked, is
either meditating, or provided with sensory stimulation, or attempts to
communicate with the subject intentionally.[5] (see Larry Dossey, Recovering
the the Soul: A Scientific and_Spiritual Search, New York, Bantam 1989; ——,
Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine, Harper San
Francisco, 1993; W. Braud and M. Schlitz, "Psychokinetic influence on
electrodermal activity," Journal of Parapsychology, Vol. 47, 1983; Mario
Varvoglis, "Goal-directed- and observer-dependent PK: An evaluation of the
conformance-behavior model and the observation theories," The Journal of the
American Society for Psychical Research, 80 (1986); R. Rosenthal, "Combining
results of independent studies," Psychological Bulletin, 85(1978); C.
Honorton, R. Berger, M. Varvoglis, M. Quant., P. Derr, E. Schechter, and D.
Ferrari, 'Psi-communication in the Ganzfeld: Experiments with an automated
testing system and a comparison with a meta-analysis of earlier studies.'
Journal of Parapsychology, 54 (1990).)
Interpersonal connection beyond the sensory range can also occur outside the
laboratory; it is particularly frequent among identical twins. In many cases
one twin feels the pain suffered by the other, and is aware of traumas and
crises even if he or she is halfway around the world. Besides "twin pain,"
the sensitivity of mothers and lovers is equally noteworthy: countless
stories are recounted of mothers having known when their son or daugther was
in grave danger, or was actually involved in an accident.
Interpersonal connection is not limited to twins, mothers and lovers: the
kind of closeness that a therapeutic relationship creates between therapist
and patient seems also to suffice. A number of psychotherapists have noted
that, during a session, they experience memories, feelings, attitudes, and
associations that are outside the normal scope of their experience and
personality. At the time these strange items are experienced they are
indistinguishable from the memories, feelings and related sentiments of the
therapists themselves; it is only later, on reflection, that they come to
realize that the anomalous items stem not from their own life and
experience, but from their patient.
It appears that in the course of the therapeutic relationship some aspect of
the patient's psyche is projected into the mind of the therapist. In that
location, at least for a limited time, it integrates with the therapist's
own psyche and produces an awareness of some of the patient's memories,
feeling, and associations. Known as "projective identification," the
transference can be useful in the context of therapy: it can permit the
patient to view what was previously a painful element in his or her personal
consciousness more objectively, as if it belonged to somebody else.
Actual bodily effects seem also capable of being transmitted from one
individual to another. Transmissions of this kind came to be known as
"telesomatic": they consist of physiological changes that are triggered in
the targeted person by the mental processes of another. [6] The distance
between the individuals involved seems to make little or no difference.
William Braud and Marilyn Schlitz carried out hundreds of trials regarding
the impact of the mental imagery of senders on the physiology of receivers —
the latter were distant, and unaware that such imagery was being directed to
them. They claim that the mental images of the sender can "reach out" over
space and cause changes in the physiology of the distant receiver — effects
comparable to those one's own mental processes produce in one's own body.
People who attempt to influence their own bodily functions are only slightly
more effective than those who attempt to influence the physiology of others
from a distance. Over several cases involving a large number of individuals,
the difference between remote influence and self-influence was almost
insignificant: "telesomatic" influence by a distant person proved to be
nearly as effective as "psychosomatic" influence by the same person.
The Findings: (ii) Grof's experience with altered states of consciousness
Complementing psi-experiments in regard to the ability of the human mind to
penetrate beyond the limits of personal sensory experience are the findings
of modern psychotherapists. The pertinent evidence comes clearly to the fore
in the work of Stanislav Grof. In reviewing findings gathered in the course
of over three decades, Grof suggests that the standard cartography of the
human mind needs to be completed with additional elements. To the standard
"biographic-recollective" domain of the psyche we should add a "perinatal"
and a "transpersonal" domain. The transpersonal domain, it appears, can
mediate connection between our mind and practically any part or aspect of
the phenomenal world.[7]
Grof's experience derives from work with non-ordinary "altered" states of
consciousness (ASCs) induced in his patients either by psychedelic drugs or
holotropic breathing. ASCs embrace a large part of the human psyche; the
states of normal waking consciousness are but the tip of the iceberg. As
over a hundred years ago William James had noted, "Our normal waking
consciousness...is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about
it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of
consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting
their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are
all there in all their completeness."[8] People in "primitive" and classical
cultures knew how to apply the requisite stimulus — some tribes, such as the
!Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari desert, could enter altered states all at the
same time. In many parts of the world ancient peoples combined chanting,
breathing, drumming, rhythmic dancing, fasting, social and sensory
isolation, even specific forms of physical pain to induce altered states.
The native cultures of Africa and pre-Colombian America used them in
shamanic procedures, healing ceremonies and rites of passage; the
high-cultures of Asia used them in various systems of yoga, Vipassana or Zen
Buddhism, Tibetan Vajrayana, Taoism, and Sufism. The semitic cultures used
them in Cabalah, the ancient Egyptians in the temple initiations of Isis and
Osiris; the classical Greeks in Bacchanalia and the rites of Attis and
Adonis as well as in the Eleusinian mysteries. Until the advent of Western
industrial civilization, almost all cultures held such states in high esteem
for the remarkable experiences they convey and the powers of personal
healing and interpersonal contact and communication they render
accessible.[9]
Today, at the leading edge of the contemporary sciences, research on altered
states of consciousness is becoming accepted as a legitimate part of the new
discipline known as "consciousness research." The insight that surfaces is,
as Charles Tart noted, that altered states tend to make our connections to
each other and to our environment more evident. Grof's records of the verbal
reports of his patients makes this very clear. [10]
In the "experience of dual unity" a patient in an ASC experiences a
loosening and melting of the boundaries of the body ego and a sense of
merging with another person in a state of unity and oneness. In this
experience, despite the feeling of being fused with another, the patient
retains an awareness of his or her own identity. Then, in the experience of
"identification with other persons," the patient, while merging
experientially with another person, has a sense of complete identification
to the point of losing the awareness of his or her own identity.
Identification is total and complex, involving body image, physical
sensations, emotional reactions and attitudes, thought processes, memories,
facial expression, typical gestures and mannerisms, postures, movement, and
even the inflection of the voice. The "other" (or others) can be someone in
the presence of the patient or someone absent; he or she can be part of an
experience from the subject's childhood, his or her ancestry, or even of a
previous lifetime.
In "group identification and group consciousness" there is a further
extension of consciousness and melting of ego boundaries. Rather than
identifying with individual persons, the patient has a sense of becoming an
entire group of people who share some racial, cultural, national,
ideological, political, or professional characteristics. The depth, scope,
and intensity of this experience can reach extraordinary proportions: people
may experience the totality of suffering of all the soldiers who have ever
died on the battlefield since the beginning of history, the desire of
revolutionaries of all ages to overthrow a tyrant, or the love, tenderness
and dedication of all mothers in regard to their babies. Identification can
focus on a social or political group, the people of an entire country or
continent, all members of a race, or all believers of a religion.
"Identification with animals" goes beyond the human transpersonal dimension:
it involves a complete and realistic identification with members of various
animal species. The experience can be authentic and convincing, including
body image, specific physiological sensations, instinctual drives, unique
perceptions of the environment, and the corresponding emotional reactions.
The nature and scope of these experiences distinguish them from ordinary
human experiences; they often transcend the scope of fantasy and
imagination.
While less frequent, "identification with plants and botanical processes"
occurs as well. On occasion patients have a complex experience of becoming a
tree, a wild or garden flower, a carnivorous plant, kelp, Volvox globator,
plankton in the ocean, a bacterial culture, or an individual bacterium. In
the still more embracing experience of "oneness with life and all creation"
an individual expands his or her consciousness to such an extent that it
encompasses the totality of life on this planet, including all of humanity
and all the flora and fauna of the biosphere. Instead of identification with
one living organism, the patient identifies with life itself as a cosmic
phenomenon.
Experience in ASCs can also penetrate beyond the sphere of life: it can
include the macroscopic and microscopic phenomena of the inorganic world. In
the "experience of inanimate matter and inorganic processes" patients report
experiential identification with the waters of rivers and oceans, with
various forms of fire, with the earth and with mountains, and with the
forces unleashed in natural catastrophes such as electric storms,
earthquakes, tornadoes, and volcanic eruptions. They can identify with
specific materials, such as diamonds and other precious stones, quartz
crystals, amber, granite, iron, steel, quicksilver, silver, and gold. The
experiences extend into the microworld and may involve the dynamic structure
of molecules and atoms, Brownian motions, interatomic bonds, electromagnetic
forces, and subatomic particles. Grof concludes that every process in the
universe that in an ordinary state of consciousness can be objectively
observed, can also be subjectively experienced in an altered state.
The cosmic dimensions of altered-state experiences can encompass all of the
planet Earth. In "planetary consciousness" the subject's consciousness
expands to the Earth's geological substance with its mineral kingdom, and
its biosphere with all its life forms. The Earth as a whole appears to be
one complex organism, oriented toward its own evolution, integration, and
self-actualization. In "extraterrestrial experiences" — a further expanded
form of consciousness — other celestial bodies and astronomical processes
are included. The subject can experience travelling to the moon, sun, other
planets, stars, and galaxies; he or she can experience explosions of
supernovas, contraction of stars, quasars and pulsars, even passage through
black holes. The experience can occur in the form of simply witnessing such
events, or of actually becoming them, experiencing them intimately, as if
being a part of the experienced thing or event. At the widest (and
comparatively rare) form of this experience — "identification with the
entire physical universe" — the subject has the feeling that his or her
consciousness encompasses the entire cosmos. All its processes are
experienced as part of the organism and psyche of the all-encompassing
universe-system.
In addition to the spatially expanded forms of consciousness, there are
experiences that recall OBEs (out-of-body experiences), clairvoyance,
clairaudience, and telepathy. More relevant for our purposes are experiences
involving a displacement in time. Time-displacement experiences range from
"embryonal and fetal experiences," where the subject recalls his or her
intrauterine experiences as a fetus, through "ancestral experiences"
involving identification with one's biological ancestors, "racial and
collective experiences" where those involved are not one's direct ancestors
but members of the same race, or sometimes the entire human species
(suggestive of Jung's "collective unconscious" of which more will be said
later), all the way to "past incarnation experiences." The essential
characteristic of the latter is a convinced sense of remembering something
that had already happened to oneself. Subjects maintain their sense of
individuality and personal identity, but experience themselves in another
form, at another place and time, and in another context. In these
reincarnation- type experiences the birth of the individual appears as a
point of transformation, where the enduring record of multiple lifetimes
enters the bio- psychological life of the individual.
According to Grof the memories that surface in past incarnation experiences
share with other transpersonal experiences the capacity to provide instant
and direct extrasensory access to information about some aspect of the
world. If so, all divisions and boundaries in the universe are illusory and
arbitrary; in the last analysis it is only a cosmic consciousness that
actually exists.[11]
Toward an Explanation: (a) Jung's unus mundus
What explanation can we give for the varied yet remarkably consistent
phenomena unearthed in controlled psi- experiments and in the work of Grof
and other psychotherapists with patients in altered states of consciousness?
Just what is the nature of the "cosmic consciousness" — or similar factor —
that would connect our psyche with the world at large?
Carl Jung, fascinated with this seemingly esoteric aspect of the human
psyche, attempted an explanation in terms of a higher or deeper reality that
would connect human minds with each other as well as with physical reality.
He was led to his explanatory concept by a comparison of unconscious
processes in individuals with the myths, legends and folktales of a variety
of cultures at various periods of history. Jung found that the individual
records and the collective material contain common themes. This prompted him
to postulate the existence of a collective aspect of the pysche: the
"collective unconscious." The dynamic principles that organize this material
are the "archetypes." Archetypes are irrepresentable in themselves, but have
effects that make visualizations possible: these are the archetypal images
and ideas.[12] "The archetype as such is a psychoid factor that belongs, as
it were, to the invisible, ultraviolet end of the psychic spectrum. It does
not appear, in itself, to be capable of reaching consciousness."[13]
While in the realm of the spirit, at the upper, "ultraviolet" end of the
psychic spectrum, archetypes are dynamic organizers of ideas and images, at
the lower, "infrared" end of the spectrum the biological instinctual psyche
shades into the physiology of the organism, merging with its chemical and
physical conditions. As Jung noted, "...the position of the archetype would
be located beyond the psychic sphere, analogous to the position of
physiological instinct, which is immediately rooted in the stuff of the
organism and, with its psychoid nature, forms the bridge to matter in
general.[14]
Jung formulated his concept of the archetype in collaboration with Wolfgang
Pauli. He was struck by the fact that while his own research into the human
psyche led to an encounter with such "irrepresentables" as the archetypes,
research in quantum physics had likewise led to "irrepresentables": the
micro- particles of the physical universe, entities for which no complete
description appeared possible.
Jung concluded, "When the existence of two or more irrepresentables is
assumed, there is always the possibility — which we tend to overlook — that
it may not be a question of two or more factors but of one only."[15] The
single factor that underlies the irrepresentables of physics and of
psychology may be the same as that which underlies the synchronicites Jung
had investigated: meaningful coincidences that tie together in an acausal
connectedness the physical and the psychological worlds. The common factor
that would underlie and connect these worlds Jung named "unus mundus." The
foundation for the unus mundus is "...that the multiplicity of the empirical
world rests on an underlying unity, and that not two or more fundamentally
different worlds exist side- by- side or are mingled with one another."[16]
As Charles Card summarized, "The realms of mind and of matter—psyche and
physis— are complementary aspects of the same transcendental reality, the
unus mundus. Archetypes act as the fundamental dynamical patterns whose
various representations characterize all processes, whether mental or
physical. In the realm of the psyche, archetypes organize images and ideas.
In the realm of physis, they organize the structure and transformations of
matter and energy, and they account for acausal orderedness as well.
Archetypes acting simultaneously in both the realms of psyche and physis
account for instances of synchronistic phenomena."[17]
Jung's relates the subtle connections that appear in synchronistic events
involving the psyche of different individuals, as well as the psyche of one
person and the physical world around that person, to an underlying reality
that emerges in the form of archetypes. The fundamental reality — the unus
mundus — is itself neither psychic nor physical: it stands above, or lies
beyond, both psyche and physis.
Toward an Explanation: (b) The Quantum Vacuum
Jung's concept points the way toward a fruitful avenue of research: a deeper
reality that connects mind and mind, and mind and matter. This approach
should enter the current stream of consciousness research. For the present,
most researchers seek an explanation of mental events mainly in terms of
physical processes in the brain. But henceforth the mental events to explain
should include not only the workings of the individual brain but, in light
of the findings of psi- experimenters and psychotherapists, the subtle
connections that link human brains with each other and with the world at
large.
It seems likely that world and brain — cosmos and consciousness — are
interconnected by a continuous information- conserving and transmitting
field.18—— (see The Interconnected Universe. World Scientific, Singapore and
London, 1995; ——, The Whispering Pond. Element Books, London and New York,
1996 (in press).) Such a field cannot be postulated in an ad hoc manner —
science must respect the law laid down by William of Occam in the 14th
century: entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity. New entities —
which can also be forces or fields — can only be postulated when doing so is
the simplest, the most economical and the most rational way of explaining a
given set of findings and observations.
A field that constitutes the simplest, the most economical and rational
explanation of the current findings may exist: David Bohm, the same as this
writer, suggested that it is the as yet imperfectly understood "zero- point
field" (ZPF) that seems present throughout the quantum vacuum. In the
following we shall explore what is known about this field of the vacuum,
what is currently hypothesized about it, and how it could account for the
subtle interconnections noted above.
Received knowledge about the vacuum - - In quantum physics the quantum
vacuum is defined as the lowest energy state of a system of which the
equations obey wave mechanics and special relativity. It is considerably
more than just the state of a system, however. It is the locus of a vast
energy field that is neither classically electromagnetic nor gravitational,
nor yet nuclear in nature. Instead, it is the originating source of the
known electromagnetic, gravitational, and nuclear forces and fields. It is
the originating source of matter itself.
The technical definitions of the quantum vacuum point to a continuous energy
sea in which particles of matter are specific substructures. According to
Paul Dirac's calculation, all particles in positive energy states have
negative- energy counterparts (by now such "antiparticles" have been found
experi- mentally for all presently known particles). The zero- ppoint field
of the quantum vacuum is a "Dirac- sea": a sea of particles in the negative
energy state. These particles are not observable — physicists call them
"virtual." But they are not fictional for all that. By stimulating the
negative energy states of the ZPF with sufficient energy (of the order of
10- 27 erg), a particular region of it can be "kicked" into the real (that
is, observable) state of positive energy. This is the process known as pair-
creation: out of the vacuum emerges a positive energy (real) particle, with
a negative energy (virtual) particle remaining in it. Thus the Dirac- sea is
everywhere; the observable universe floats, as it were, on its surface.
The quantum vacuum contains a staggering density of energy. John Wheeler
estimated its matter- equivalent at 1094 gram per cm3 — and that is more
than all the matter in the universe put together. Compared with this energy
density, the energy of the nucleus of the atom — the most energetic chunk of
matter in the known universe — seems almost minuscule: it is "merely" 1014
gram/cm3.
The vacuum itself is not material: its zero- point energies — which,
according to David Bohm, exceed all the energies bound in matter 1040
times — are in the negative state. This is fortunate, for if they were not,
the universe would instantly collapse to a size smaller than the radius of
an atom. (This follows from E = mc2, Einstein's celebrated mass- energy
equivalence relation: energy corresponds to mass, and mass in turn entails
gravitation.)
Because the "real" world of matter — that is, of energy bound in mass — is
so much less energetic than the vacuum, the observable universe is not a
solid condensate floating on top of the vacuum, but like a set of bubbles
suspended in it. In terms of energy, the material world is not a
solidification of the quantum vacuum, but a thinning of it.
Speculations on the vacuum - - A thin line divides what is already known and
accepted about the quantum vacuum and what is still speculative and
controversial. Here we review the relevant explorations: those that concern
interactions between the observable world of matter- energy and the vacuum's
zero- point energies.
The world of matter and the quantum vacuum are known to interact. For
example, under certain conditions vacuum's zero- point energies act on
electrons orbiting atomic nuclei. The effects occur when electrons "jump"
from one energy state to another: the photons they emit exhibit the so-
called Lamb- shift (a frequency slightly shifted from its normal value).
Vacuum energies also create a radiation pressure on two closely spaced metal
plates. Between the plates some wavelengths of the vacuum field are
excluded, thereby reducing its energy density with respect to the field
outside. This creates a pressure — known as the Casimir effect — that pushes
the plates inward and together.
Other interactions may exist as well. Some years ago Hungarian physicist
Lajos Jánossy assigned "relativistic effects" (such as the slowing down of
clocks when accelerated close to the speed of light, or the increasing of
the mass of objects at those velocities) to the interaction of realworld
objects with the vacuum's energy field. Close to the speed of light the
matter- particles of objects rub against the force- particles (bosons) of
the vacuum, and this friction slows down their processes and increases their
mass. In this concept the ZPF of the vacuum is a physical field that
interacts with the objects that move in space and time.
Currently another Hungarian, maverick theoretician László Gazdag, developed
Jánossy's concept into a full- fledged "post- relativity
theory."[19]——,"Superfluid mediums, vacuum spaces" Speculations in Science
and Technology, Vol. 12,1, 1989; and "Combining of the gravitational and
electromagnetic fields, ibid., Vol. 16,1, 1993.
In his theory the vacuum's energy field has the properties of a superfluid.
It is known that in supercooled helium all resistance and friction ceases;
it moves through narrow cracks and capilleries without loss of momentum.
Conversely, objects move through the fluid without encountering resistance.
(Since also electrons move through it without resistance, superfluids are
also superconductors.) Thus, in a sense, a superconducting superfluid is not
"there" for the objects or electrons that move through it — they get no
information about its presence. This could explain why we, and even our most
sensitive instruments, fail to register its presence.
In Gazdag's reinterpretation of Einstein's relativity theory the celebrated
formulas describe the flow of bosons in the superfluid ZPF. This flow is
what determines the geometrical structure of spacetime, and hence the
trajectory of realworld photons and electrons. When particles of light and
matter move uniformly, spacetime is Euclidean; when they are accelerated the
ZPF interacts with their motion. Then spacetime appears curved. (As Russian
physicist Piotr Kapitza noted, in a superfluid only those objects move
without friction that are in constant quasi- uniform motion. If an object is
strongly accelerated, vortices are created in the medium and these vortices
produce resistance: the classical interaction effects surface.)
Front- line research in physics confirms the basic notion that underlies
these assumptions. Current work follows up a suggestion made by physicists
Paul Davies and William Unruh in the mid- 1970s. Davies and Unruh, like
Jánossy and Gazdag, based their argument on the difference between constant-
speed and accelerated motion in the vacuum's zero- point field. Constant-
speed motion would exhibit the vacuum's spectrum as isotropic (the same in
all directions), whereas accelerated motion would produce a thermal
radiation that breaks open the directional symmetry. The "Davies- Unruh
effect," too small to be measured with physical instruments, prompted
scientists to investigate whether accelerated motion through the vacuum
field would produce incremental effects. This expectation has borne fruit.
It turned out that the inertial force itself could be due to interactions in
that field.
In 1994 Bernhard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda and Harold Puthoff gave a
mathematical demonstration that inertia can be considered a vacuum- based
Lorentz- force.[20] The force originates at the subparticle level and
produces opposition to the acceleration of material objects. The accelerated
motion of objects through the vacuum produces a magnetic field, and the
particles that constitute the objects are deflected by this field. The
larger the object the more particles it contains, hence the stronger the
deflection — and greater the inertia. Inertia is thus a form of
electromagnetic resistance arising in accelerated frames from the distortion
of the zero- point (and otherwise superfluid) field of the vacuum.
More than inertia, also mass appears to be a product of vacuum inter-
action. If Haisch and collaborators are right, the concept of mass is
neither fundamental nor even necessary in physics. When the massless
electric charges of the vacuum (the bosons that make up the superfluid zero-
point field) interact with the electromagnetic field, beyond the already
noted threshold of energy, mass is effectively "created." Thus mass may be a
structure condensed from vacuum energy, rather than a fundamental given in
the universe.
If mass is a product of vacuum energy, so is gravitation. Gravity, as we
know, is always associated with mass, obeying the inverse square law (it
drops off proportionately to the square of the distance between the
gravitating masses). Hence if mass is produced in interaction with the ZPF,
then also the force that is associated with mass must be so produced. This,
however, means that all the fundamental characteristics we normally
associate with matter are vacuum field- interaction products: inertia, mass,
as well as gravity.
In regard to the full scale of interactions between vacuum energies and the
micro- as well as macro- world of matter- energy, the work of a group of
Russian physicists is of particular significance. Anatoly Akimov, G.I.
Shipov, V.N. Binghi and co- workers developed a sophisticated theory of what
they call the "physical vacuum." In their theory the vacuum is a real
physical field extending throughout the universe: it registers and transmits
the traces of both micro- particles and macro- objects.[21]Anatoly Akimov,
"Heuristic discussion of the problem of finding long- range interactions.
EGS- Concepts." Center of Intersectoral Science, Engineering and Venture,
Non- Conventional Technologies (CISE VENT), Preprint No. 74, Moscow 1991.
The theory, which at the time of writing has not been published outside
Russia, is important and fascinating enough to merit some further details.
In standard theories the energetic properties of the quantum vacuum are
generally considered in the framework of quantum electrodynamics. This
framework gives rise to elegant and relatively simple mathematics. But such
formulas, though highly sophisticated, can be misleading: they may not
provide the best possible account of physical reality. Stochastic electro-
dynamics, for example, produces a more "messy" math, but its tenets about
the real world may be closer to realistic assumptions about the nature of
reality. In any case, quantum electrodynamics, as other scientific theories,
can always be reconsidered or extended.
The Russian physicists do not hesitate to undertake this step. They take
their cue from earlier work by Einstein. In a seminal treatment, G.I.
Shiphov showed that in accordance with the Clifford- Einstein program of the
geometrization of spacetime, the vacuum can be described not only in terms
of Riemannian (four- dimensional) curvature, but also in terms of Cartan
torsion. In the 1920s studies carried out by Albert Einstein and E. Cartan
laid the foundation of the theory that became subsequent known as the ECT
(Einstein- Cartan Theory). The idea stemmed originally from Cartan, who at
the beginning of the century speculated about fields generated by angular
momentum density. This idea was later elaborated independently by a number
of Russian physicists, including N. Myshkin and V. Belyaev. They claim to
have discovered the natural manifestations of enduring torsion fields.
Presently Akimov and his team consider the quantum vacuum as a universal
torsion wave carrying medium. The torsion field is said to fill all of space
isotropically, including its matter component. It has a quantal structure
that is unobservable in non- disturbed states. However, violations of vacuum
symmetry and invariance create different, and in principle observable,
states.
The torsion field theory takes a modified form of the original electron-
positron model of the "Dirac- sea": the vacuum's energy field is viewed as a
system of rotating wave packets of electrons and positrons (rather than a
sea of electron- positron pairs). Where the wave- packets are mutually
embedded, the field is electrically neutral. If the spins of the embedded
packets have the opposite sign, the system is compensated not only in
charge, but also in classical spin and magnetic moment. Such a system is
said to be a "phyton." Dense ensembles of phytons are said to approximate a
simplified model of the physical vacuum field.
When the phytons are spin- compensated, their orientation within the
ensemble is arbitrary. But when a charge q is the source of disturbance, the
action produces a charge polarization of the vacuum, as prescribed by
quantum electrodynamics. When a mass m is the source of disturbance, the
phytons produce symmetrical oscillations along the axis given by the
direction of the disturbance. The vacuum then enters a state characterized
by the oscillation of the phytons along their longitudinal spin-
polarization; this is interpreted as a gravitational field (G- field). The
gravitational field is thus the result of vacuum decompensation arising at
its point of polarization — which is an idea that was originally introduced
by Sakharov. Given that the gravitational field is characterized by
longitudinal waves, it cannot be screened, which is in accordance with
observation and experiment. Hence m- disturbance produces the G- field, much
as q- disturbance produces the electromagnetic field.
Akimov et al. go further. Following a thesis advanced by Roger Penrose, they
represent the vacuum equations in the spinor form and thereby obtain a
system of nonlinear spinor equations where two- component spinors represent
the potentials of torsion fields. These equations can describe charged as
well as neutral quantum and classical particles. They thus allow that the
vacuum field is disturbed not only by charge and mass, but also by classical
spin. In that event the phytons oriented in the same direction as the spin
of the disturbance keep their orientation. Those opposite to the spin of the
source undergo inversion; then the local region of the vacuum transits into
a state of transverse spin polarization. This gives the "spin field" (S-
field), viewed as a condensate of fermion pairs.
As a result Akimov et al. view the vacuum as a physical medium that can
assume various polarization states. Given charge polarization, the vacuum is
manifested as the electromagnetic field. Given matter- polarization, it is
manifested as the gravitational field. And given spin- polarization, the
vacuum manifests as a spin- field. All fundamental fields known to physics
correspond to specific vacuum polarization- states.
Thus the above "torsion- field theory of the physical vacuum" can claim that
all objects, from quanta to galaxies, create vortices in the vacuum. The
vortices created by particles and other material objects are information
carriers, linking physical events quasi- instantaneously. The group- speed
of these "torsion- waves" is of the order of 109 C — one billion times the
speed of light. Since not just physical objects, also the neurons in our
brain create and receive torsion- waves, not only particles are "informed"
of each other's presence (as in the famous EPR experiments), also humans can
be so informed: our brain, too, is a vacuum- based "torsion- field
transceiver." This suggests a physical explanation not only of quantum non-
locality, but also of telepathy, remote viewing, and the other telesomatic
effects discussed above.[22]
Torsion waves both superluminal and enduring. Meta- stable "torsion-
phantoms" generated by spin- torsion interaction can persist even in the
absence of the objects that generated them. The existence of these phantoms
has been confirmed in the experiments of Vladimir Poponin and his team at
the Institute of Biochemical Physics of the Russian Academy of
Sciences.[23](see P.P.Gariaev, K.V. Grigor'ev, A.A. Vasil'ev, V.P. Poponin
and V.A. Shcheglov, "Investigation of the fluctuation dynamics of DNA
solutions by laser correlation spectro- scopy," in Bulletin of the Lebedev
Physics Institute No. 11- 12, 1999, pp. 23- 30; V.P. Poponin, "Modeling of
NLE dynamics in one dimensional anharmonic FPU- lattice", Physics Letters A
.)
Poponin, who has since repeated the experiment at the Heartmath Institute in
the US, placed a sample of a DNA molecule into a temperature controlled
chamber and subjected it to a laser beam. He found that the electromagnetic
field around the chamber exhibits a specific structure, more or less as
expected. But he also found that this structure persists long after the DNA
itself has been removed from the laser- irradiated chamber: the DNA's
imprint in the field continues to be present when the DNA is no longer
there. Poponin and his collaborators conclude that the experiment shows that
a new field structure has been triggered from the physical vacuum. This
field is extremely sensitive; it can be excited by a range of energies close
to zero. The phantom effect is a manifestation, they claim, of a hitherto
overlooked vacuum substructure.
Theories such as those we have cited here foreshadow a major leap in the
scientific world picture: the physical foundations of the universe acquire
an active role in all its functions and processes. Life, and even mind, is a
manifestation of the constant if subtle interaction of the wave- packets
classically known as "matter" with the underlying physically real zero-
point vacuum field.
If the emerging world picture is to be completed, we must evolve an explicit
hypothesis to describe the basic dynamics of the overall range of matter-
vacuum interaction. In this writer's "quantum- vacuum interaction (QVI)
hypothesis," the non- classical energy field of the vacuum (consisting of
scalar as well as electromagnetic wave propagations) registers the spacetime
behavior and evolution of matter- energy systems in the form of interfering
wavefronts. The conserved interference patterns form a holographic
information field accessible to systems with a stereodynamic pattern
isomorphic to the systems that produced the patterns. The applicable process
can be described as forward and reverse Fourier (more exactly, Gabor)
transforms. Hence matter- energy systems ranging from quanta to complex
atomic, molecular, cellular and multicellular structures, including human
brains, decode ("read out") the information they and analogous systems have
encoded ("read into") the field. Given that wavefronts superpose in multiple
dimensions, the ZPF of the vacuum acts as an information- conserving and
transmitting universal holofield, intercon- necting systems with each other,
as well as with their subsidiary systems (internal parts) and suprasystems
(external environments).[24]
Conclusions
The astonishing psi- phenomena that come to light in controlled experiments,
and the equally astonishing findings of expert psychotherapists cannot be
dismissed as mere chimera, figments of a fertile but undisciplined
imagination. The findings are part and parcel of the manifestation of human
consciousness: an entity whose subconscious domains extend far beyond the
confines of the subject's brain and organism.
The findings may be real, yet their acceptance hinges critically on disco-
vering ways to connect them with the received frameworks of knowledge. As
long as there is no conceivable tie between an anomaly and the basic
paradigm that frames knowledge in the pertinent field, the anomaly will
remain just that: a paradoxical, uncomprehended item, relegated to the back
shelf of the science establishment. Recognition of a conceivable tie could,
however, make for a significant difference — it could open up feasible
avenues of conceptual analysis, theory- formulation, and experimental
testing. For that reason likely hypotheses of brain- brain and brain-
universe (or, in an alternative terminology, consciousness- consciousness,
and consciousness- world) interaction need to be seriously scrutinized, for
intrinsic meaningfulness, consistency with observations, as well as mesh
with the currently known frameworks of explanation.
In the here discussed case the scientific validation of the findings would
have an additional bonus. Not only would it introduce greater coherence into
our world picture — binding together the hitherto anomalous findings of
consciousness research with our knowledge of the physical world — it would
also introduce greater coherence into human affairs. As thoughtful observers
have frequently remarked, many of our current ills are due to the sense of
separateness and lack of empathy we experience vis- a- vis our fellow humans
and the nonhuman realms of nature (in modern societies, as Woody Allen
quipped, "nature and I are two"). The scientist's recognition that we do
have deeper ties to each other and to the natural environment could make a
significant impact on the media, and therewith on the dominant attitudes of
the public.
T.S. Eliot asked, "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of
this stony rubbish? Son of man you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a
heap of broken images..." Perhaps, the exploration of our subtle ties with
each other and with nature could enable us to know more than a heap of
broken images. It could help us to recognize Bateson's "pattern that
connects": the subtle connecting pattern present in the cosmos and in the
biosphere — and likewise in our brain and consciousness.
felix
Pozdrav Elvise!
> > "The Akashic Records (Akasha is a Sanskrit word meaning "sky", "space"
> > or "aether") are said to be a collection of mystical knowledge that is
> > stored in the aether; i.e. on a non-physical plane of existence."
> >
>
> Tako je. Prema istrazivanjima ruskih znanstvenika ali poznatog SHARP tima,
> te se informacije cuvaju u spinskim modovima kvantnog vakuma
> (Einstein-Cartan Theory).
A sad to reci na hrvatskom .. dakle pitanje GDJE se KONKRTNO nalazi
ta Akasha?
Ako neznas odgovor na to pitanje, (pace, znam da ne znas jer je to trik
pitanje .. isto kao ..da te pitam .. "a kako je to jebati?? Probaj i
reci ce ti se samo" Dakle za to trebas imati iskustva koja ti to sama
kazu;))
Pravo pitanje bi bilo.. kako se moze iscitati? koji je nuzan preduvjet?
Na ovo MORAS znati odgovor ako ti znanje nije gomila informacija
teorijskog naklapanja nekih nazovi autoriteta..
--
*******FELIX*******
Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
> ta Akasha?
> Ako neznas odgovor na to pitanje, (pace, znam da ne znas jer je to trik
> pitanje ..
Ako vec znas odgovore na svoja pitanja, onda nema potrebe ni postavljati ih.
Dapace, tvoja neuljudnost kao rezultat ne moze imati bilo kakav smisleni
odgovor, jer ljudi poput tebe, koji se razgovaraju na takav nain zasigurno
ni ne mogu pojmiti taj odgovor.
reci ce ti se samo" Dakle za to trebas imati iskustva koja ti to sama
> kazu;))
Iskustva na ovoj grupi u najmanjoj mjeri imate vi, dragi neuljudni
gospodine.
> Pravo pitanje bi bilo.. kako se moze iscitati? koji je nuzan preduvjet?
> Na ovo MORAS znati odgovor ako ti znanje nije gomila informacija
> teorijskog naklapanja nekih nazovi autoriteta..
>
Pa, rece mi Zeljka kako bas i niste uspjesni u recenom iscitavanju.
felix
Pozdrav Elvis aka Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
> > A sad to reci na hrvatskom .. dakle pitanje GDJE se KONKRTNO nalazi
> > ta Akasha?
> > Ako neznas odgovor na to pitanje, (pace, znam da ne znas jer je to trik
> > pitanje ..
>
> Ako vec znas odgovore na svoja pitanja, onda nema potrebe ni postavljati ih.
Pitam TEBE da odgovoris na njih jer se preseravas i lazes i pricas o
stvarima o kojima poima nemas. Tvoji komentari samo to potvrdjuju.
Ajde prestani muljati i odgovori konkretno na konkretno piatnje.
> Dapace, tvoja neuljudnost kao rezultat ne moze imati bilo kakav smisleni
> odgovor, jer ljudi poput tebe, koji se razgovaraju na takav nain zasigurno
> ni ne mogu pojmiti taj odgovor.
lolllllllll .. oke.. priznajem!! A sad duso moja draga dogovori na
pitanje :>>>>
> reci ce ti se samo" Dakle za to trebas imati iskustva koja ti to sama
> > kazu;))
>
> Iskustva na ovoj grupi u najmanjoj mjeri imate vi, dragi neuljudni
> gospodine.
Izvolite dragi moj gospodine, pokazite da imate VI iskustva. Samo
odgovorite na jedno jednostavno pitanje. Ja tvrdim da seres ko grlica i
lazes na kilometre i da poima blage veze nemas o tome o cemu seruckakas
i SVOJE pizdarije ljepis na mene..
> > Pravo pitanje bi bilo.. kako se moze iscitati? koji je nuzan preduvjet?
> > Na ovo MORAS znati odgovor ako ti znanje nije gomila informacija
> > teorijskog naklapanja nekih nazovi autoriteta..
> >
> Pa, rece mi Zeljka kako bas i niste uspjesni u recenom iscitavanju.
Zeljka??!! wft Zeljka??
Ni sa jednom Zeljkom nisam iscitavao Akashu. Pace.. ovo sto si napisao
jos jednom potvrdjuje da nemas ni p od prakse.
Samo tebi za info.. ako ti bilo tko veli da U BILO CIJEM DRUSTVU..
iskljucujem nazocnost Stvoritelja.. iscitava Akashu, reci mu u facu da
laze, sere i da ne zajebava. Ako mu nije nesto jasno, reci mu da dodje
na kavu kod mene i nek predamnom to isto iscitavanje ponovi :>>
--
*******FELIX*******
Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman
> stvarima o kojima poima nemas. Tvoji komentari samo to potvrdjuju.
Moja je stvar hocu li ti odgovoriti. Mozda jednostavno ne zasluzujes odgovor
zbog nepostivanja elementarne pristojnosti u razgovoru.
> Izvolite dragi moj gospodine, pokazite da imate VI iskustva. Samo
> odgovorite na jedno jednostavno pitanje. Ja tvrdim da seres ko grlica i
> lazes na kilometre i da poima blage veze nemas o tome o cemu seruckakas
> i SVOJE pizdarije ljepis na mene..
Ja se ne busam o prsa iskustvima da bih ih sada morao dokazivati i to nekome
tako nepristojnom poput Vas.
> Zeljka??!! wft Zeljka??
WTF ZELJKA? Pa Pixicina najbolja prijateljica. Moja bivsa cura. Ona "mala
uplasena" plavokosa.
Da, da, dragi Felixe. Zeljka je i moja prijateljica.
>
> Ni sa jednom Zeljkom nisam iscitavao Akashu. Pace.. ovo sto si napisao
> jos jednom potvrdjuje da nemas ni p od prakse.
>
Sto god da si tada radio, a radio JESI, napravio si to LOSE.
> laze, sere i da ne zajebava. Ako mu nije nesto jasno, reci mu da dodje
> na kavu kod mene i nek predamnom to isto iscitavanje ponovi :>>
>
Nitko vise tebi nece dolaziti na kavu.
felix
Pozdrav Elvis aka Edgar Allan Poe a.k.a. gayman!
> > Pitam TEBE da odgovoris na njih jer se preseravas i lazes i pricas o
> > stvarima o kojima poima nemas. Tvoji komentari samo to potvrdjuju.
>
> Moja je stvar hocu li ti odgovoriti. Mozda jednostavno ne zasluzujes odgovor
> zbog nepostivanja elementarne pristojnosti u razgovoru.
;)))))))))))))))))))))))) llllooolllll Tvoja "izvlacenja" su
definitivno legendarna.. glupa i providna :))))))
Kaj ti je tak tesko priznati ono kaj je ocito?
> > Izvolite dragi moj gospodine, pokazite da imate VI iskustva. Samo
> > odgovorite na jedno jednostavno pitanje. Ja tvrdim da seres ko grlica i
> > lazes na kilometre i da poima blage veze nemas o tome o cemu seruckakas
> > i SVOJE pizdarije ljepis na mene..
>
> Ja se ne busam o prsa iskustvima da bih ih sada morao dokazivati i to nekome
> tako nepristojnom poput Vas.
da...da...... ahaaa.. ;)))))
> > Zeljka??!! wft Zeljka??
>
> WTF ZELJKA? Pa Pixicina najbolja prijateljica. Moja bivsa cura. Ona "mala
> uplasena" plavokosa.
> Da, da, dragi Felixe. Zeljka je i moja prijateljica.
I KAD sam to JA pred NJOM iscitavao Akashu???????
> > Ni sa jednom Zeljkom nisam iscitavao Akashu. Pace.. ovo sto si napisao
> > jos jednom potvrdjuje da nemas ni p od prakse.
> >
> Sto god da si tada radio, a radio JESI, napravio si to LOSE.
Pred njom nikad! Vidio osobu jednom u zivotu.
> > laze, sere i da ne zajebava. Ako mu nije nesto jasno, reci mu da dodje
> > na kavu kod mene i nek predamnom to isto iscitavanje ponovi :>>
> >
> Nitko vise tebi nece dolaziti na kavu.
Nadaj se.. nadaj.. Evo, bas sam se malo prije VRATIO sa kave ;))))
lloollllll
E, prekidam ovu .. "razmjenu gluposti". Nema vremena za prepucavanja sa
bicima kao sto si ti.
--
*******FELIX*******
SSword
> definitivno legendarna.. glupa i providna :))))))
Zar to nije tvoja odlika?
>
> Kaj ti je tak tesko priznati ono kaj je ocito?
>
Priznati sto?
>
> da...da...... ahaaa.. ;)))))
Klasican odgovor kada ostanes bez teksta. Uzasno je biti tako star a tako
prazan.
> I KAD sam to JA pred NJOM iscitavao Akashu???????
Ma nisi uspio ni osnove iscitati a kud li akashu. amo blefiras, ponavljas
velike rijeci, a ne poznajes ni elementarne vjestine.
Mozda to prolazi kod tvojih istomisljenika, ali kod svakoga tko zna
ukljuciti mozak, prolazi samo spoznaja da u svojem jadu zelis biti majstor a
ne znas ni sam cega bi to trebao biti majstor.
>> Sto god da si tada radio, a radio JESI, napravio si to LOSE.
>
> Pred njom nikad! Vidio osobu jednom u zivotu.
I lose pogodio.
> Nadaj se.. nadaj.. Evo, bas sam se malo prije VRATIO sa kave ;))))
> lloollllll
A cuj. Ti jesi.
>
> E, prekidam ovu .. "razmjenu gluposti". Nema vremena za prepucavanja sa
> bicima kao sto si ti.
>
Nisi u stanju.
felix
Pozdrav Elvis aka SSword!
Kaj tebe toliko uveseljava to mijenjanje nickova?? O Boze, ko malo
djete si :<<
> > ;)))))))))))))))))))))))) llllooolllll Tvoja "izvlacenja" su
> > definitivno legendarna.. glupa i providna :))))))
>
> Zar to nije tvoja odlika?
Da.. naravno da ces i to preslikati na mene kao sto cinis i sa svim
ostalim. Ne zelis vidjeti sebe u ogledalo tko i sto si i kad ti netko
nesto veli onda to proglasavas njegovom karateristikom da se sakrijes i
pobjegnes od istine..
> >
> > Kaj ti je tak tesko priznati ono kaj je ocito?
> >
> Priznati sto?
Da lazes.. opet. da seres ko grlica, opet.. da na druge ljude ljepis
svoja sranja... itd.. ima toga gomila.
> > da...da...... ahaaa.. ;)))))
>
> Klasican odgovor kada ostanes bez teksta. Uzasno je biti tako star a tako
> prazan.
A s tobom se moze ozbiljno razgovarati??????? Daj me nemoj zajebavat
:<<<<
> > I KAD sam to JA pred NJOM iscitavao Akashu???????
>
> Ma nisi uspio ni osnove iscitati a kud li akashu. amo blefiras, ponavljas
> velike rijeci, a ne poznajes ni elementarne vjestine.
MA KADA sam to napravio????? KADA!!?? Nesto sam radio, sto je ona
protumacila kao iscitavanje Akashe??
Ili ti opet po svom starom dobrom obicaju opet lazes i seres i mutis
neke spletke i pizdarije/ E duso moj draga, to kod mene ne prolazi. Vrlo
dobro znam sto sam radio a sto ne. Dakle opet lazes.
> Mozda to prolazi kod tvojih istomisljenika, ali kod svakoga tko zna
> ukljuciti mozak, prolazi samo spoznaja da u svojem jadu zelis biti majstor a
> ne znas ni sam cega bi to trebao biti majstor.
Opisujes sebe.
> >> Sto god da si tada radio, a radio JESI, napravio si to LOSE.
> > Pred njom nikad! Vidio osobu jednom u zivotu.
>
> I lose pogodio.
Ma sto pogodio???? Daj nesto konkretno jebemu kaktus. Sto sam ja to
joj rekao i KADA!?
> > Nadaj se.. nadaj.. Evo, bas sam se malo prije VRATIO sa kave ;))))
> > lloollllll
>
> A cuj. Ti jesi.
A ja jesam.. a ti si misli koliko su tvoje informacije istinite;))
ilki te to opet ne jebe pol posto? Glavno da ti nesto trkeljas po
newsima. glavno da se cuje da postojis.. jadno :<<<<<<
Te tvoje lazi su postale smijesne ;))
> > E, prekidam ovu .. "razmjenu gluposti". Nema vremena za prepucavanja sa
> > bicima kao sto si ti.
> >
> Nisi u stanju.
Gledaj me :)))))))
--
*******FELIX*******
Erik Degen
>>> ;)))))))))))))))))))))))) llllooolllll Tvoja "izvlacenja" su
>>> definitivno legendarna.. glupa i providna :))))))
>>
>> Zar to nije tvoja odlika?
>
> Da.. naravno da ces i to preslikati na mene kao sto cinis i sa svim
> ostalim. Ne zelis vidjeti sebe u ogledalo tko i sto si i kad ti netko
> nesto veli onda to proglasavas njegovom karateristikom da se sakrijes i
> pobjegnes od istine..
>
>>>
>>> Kaj ti je tak tesko priznati ono kaj je ocito?
>>>
>> Priznati sto?
>
> Da lazes.. opet. da seres ko grlica, opet.. da na druge ljude ljepis
> svoja sranja... itd.. ima toga gomila.
>
>>> da...da...... ahaaa.. ;)))))
>>
>> Klasican odgovor kada ostanes bez teksta. Uzasno je biti tako star a tako
>> prazan.
>
> A s tobom se moze ozbiljno razgovarati??????? Daj me nemoj zajebavat
>:<<<<
>
>>> I KAD sam to JA pred NJOM iscitavao Akashu???????
>>
>> Ma nisi uspio ni osnove iscitati a kud li akashu. amo blefiras, ponavljas
>> velike rijeci, a ne poznajes ni elementarne vjestine.
>
> MA KADA sam to napravio????? KADA!!?? Nesto sam radio, sto je ona
> protumacila kao iscitavanje Akashe??
>
> Ili ti opet po svom starom dobrom obicaju opet lazes i seres i mutis
> neke spletke i pizdarije/ E duso moj draga, to kod mene ne prolazi. Vrlo
> dobro znam sto sam radio a sto ne. Dakle opet lazes.
Al presvjetli gosp. Felix, da li ste vi svjesni da ste munjeni? Znate...
munjene osobe nikad ne znaju da su munjene, pa tako i ne znaju što rade. To
vam je teško objasnit nekoj munjenoj osobi, kao što ste vi, a očito je da
ste munjeni ako zbog ičega onda zbog same količine uskličnika, upitnika i
smajlića koje koristite. Tough luck :(
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