Sam Houston Tollway is WAY overpriced!
Richard R. Priest
The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
so please excuse my venting.
Let's say a typical commulter used the tollway to travel from the west
side to the north or south side. The typical toll would be $3.00 each
way, or $6.00 per day.
Multiplied by 23 working days in a typical month, this is $138.00 per
month, more than most monthly bills!
It is possible to ride metro buses on an unlimited basis for that
amount.
To add insult to injury, the driver must stop in traffic at regular
intervals for the "privledge" of paying a toll each time a major
highway is intersected.
In addition, I have heard that the EZ Tag lanes have been the cause of
accidents due to driver slowing down more than is necessary while one
that "knows better" is behind them.
The Toll Road authority should offer flat-rate monthly pricing to at
least EZ Tag users that commute on a daily basis.
In addition the "stop and pay, stop and pay.." should be replaced with
pay-once-at-exit system, possibly using entry tickets as is done with
many of the major interstates (NY, PA, etc.).
Any comments?
mho...@my-deja.com
Using the tollway isn't necessary ... it's a convenience. You can get
from point A to point B in Houston either on the tollway or on the
FREEway -- but the freeway will cost you more in TIME. It's called
opportunity cost. You may have heard about it in college ...
Also, keep in mind that Beltway 8 is an urban road ... much different
than the mostly rural urban toll roads you are thinking of "back east."
Traffic patterns are different, by necessity (more exits, more
entrances). And they use similar EZ pay systems up there as well.
In article <7k8k97$ltd$1...@usenet48.supernews.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
atoztoa
when i lived in the seattle area, the fast lanes were open to whoever
wanted to go the express route and avoid the regular freeway in and outs,
at NO charge and NO limits on number of passengers;
also, i have lived and worked in large metro areas where the freeway lanes
had a bnch of reversible lanes to match rush hour traffic;
can you imagine the katy freeway with 8 lanes coming in during the am
rush, and 8 lanes going out in the pm rush; it works elsewhere, why not
here???
comments????
i have never figured out why all the rules and regs and fees around here,
i guess this is just the way it is here in houston;
Lithium
Richard R. Priest wrote in message <7k8k97$ltd$1...@usenet48.supernews.com>...
>
>The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
>so please excuse my venting.
>
>Let's say a typical commulter used the tollway to travel from the west
>side to the north or south side. The typical toll would be $3.00 each
>way, or $6.00 per day.
>
>Multiplied by 23 working days in a typical month, this is $138.00 per
>month, more than most monthly bills!
>Any comments?
The tollway is more or less a private business. They will charge what the
market will bear. They paid to build the tollway, and have to pay a % to
the city in order to operate, but otherwise they are free to charge with
impunity.
If their charges begin to outweight the tollway's use for most people,
people will stop using them (since they only offer a faster low-traffic
route to various places, rather than the only one).
Lithium
atoztoa wrote in message <3767F0A8...@mindspring.com>...
>when i lived in the seattle area, the fast lanes were open to whoever
>wanted to go the express route and avoid the regular freeway in and outs,
>at NO charge and NO limits on number of passengers;
Those were city-owned and paid for by tax dollars.
Believe me, I'd be glad for the city to build a few replacements for
tollroads...
Jorge R. Frank
>
> can you imagine the katy freeway with 8 lanes coming in during the am
> rush, and 8 lanes going out in the pm rush; it works elsewhere, why not
> here???
Some years ago, there was a proposal to do such a massive expansion of
the Katy, by taking over the abandoned railroad tracks to the north. A
coalition of light-rail proponents and environmentalists banded to kill
the idea.
--
JRF
Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" and think one step ahead of IBM.
Jorge R. Frank
>
> The tollway is more or less a private business. They will charge what the
> market will bear. They paid to build the tollway, and have to pay a % to
> the city in order to operate, but otherwise they are free to charge with
> impunity.
Sorry, that's not quite right. The toll roads are run by the Harris
County Toll Road Authority, an arm of the county government. It was
established, IIRC, by then-County Judge Jon Lindsey, and I think it is
still directly accountable to the commissioners court. There was a
proposal this year to privatize the toll roads, but it was shot down in
the Texas Lege by (surprise surprise) State Senator Jon Lindsey.
The toll roads were financed by bond sales; the tolls are set at levels
adequate to pay off the bonds on schedule.
The city is not involved with the tollways in any way.
Lithium
Jorge R. Frank wrote in message <3768451C...@ibm-pc.org>...
>Lithium wrote:
>>
>> The tollway is more or less a private business. They will charge what
the
>> market will bear. They paid to build the tollway, and have to pay a % to
>> the city in order to operate, but otherwise they are free to charge with
>> impunity.
>
>Sorry, that's not quite right. The toll roads are run by the Harris
>County Toll Road Authority, an arm of the county government. It was
>established, IIRC, by then-County Judge Jon Lindsey, and I think it is
>still directly accountable to the commissioners court. There was a
>proposal this year to privatize the toll roads, but it was shot down in
>the Texas Lege by (surprise surprise) State Senator Jon Lindsey.
>
>The toll roads were financed by bond sales; the tolls are set at levels
>adequate to pay off the bonds on schedule.
>
>The city is not involved with the tollways in any way.
Prehaps I should not breed.
Bruce
ap...@mindspring.com (Richard R. Priest) wrote:
>
>The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
>so please excuse my venting.
No problem. I'm one of its biggest fans. Don't confuse this with being a
fan of HCTRA though.
>Let's say a typical commulter used the tollway to travel from the west
>side to the north or south side. The typical toll would be $3.00 each
>way, or $6.00 per day.
How do you figure three tolls from west to south or north? I get on at
I-10, get off at West Airport after 59 and pay 1 toll. Reverse for going
home. if you go all the way to 288, you pay 1 more for a grand total of
$3.00 per day. You could travel all the way from 45N to 288 for $3.00.
Anyway, I do travel west to south and I spend $1.50 per day, used to spend
$3 when I worked up north. The 15 minutes of my time saved, and the stress
relieving cruise at 80mph are worth every penney. I would pay 3X as much,
but don't tell HCTRA.
>Multiplied by 23 working days in a typical month, this is $138.00 per
>month, more than most monthly bills!
Boy, you have some cheap bills. If it is too much, there are alternatives.
Take I-45
>It is possible to ride metro buses on an unlimited basis for that
>amount.
That is what is called an apples to oranges comparison. You want to ride a
bus???
>To add insult to injury, the driver must stop in traffic at regular
>intervals for the "privledge" of paying a toll each time a major
>highway is intersected.
Not with an Easy Tag. Except for the idiots that stay in the Easy tag lane
illegally, until the last minute. I toss rotten tomatoes at them :)
>In addition, I have heard that the EZ Tag lanes have been the cause of
>accidents due to driver slowing down more than is necessary while one
>that "knows better" is behind them.
Usually, it is some token toting moran waiting until the last minute and
then trying to cut in line.
>The Toll Road authority should offer flat-rate monthly pricing to at
>least EZ Tag users that commute on a daily basis.
I would be ok with this, as long as it was high enough. You see, the road
is getting crowded. If it gets too crowded what is the point? If it was
free, it would look like every other freeway at rush hour, and if it was
$100 per toll, it would be empty. The task is too find a price that keeps
it running at a volume that allows speed limit flow on all lanes and not
too long of a wait at the booths.
If I may gripe a little. I use the tollway everyday from 59S up to Katy
Freeway. What idiot decided to dump 59 onto the tollway and give them a
couple miles free access? This creates a traffic jam everyday because all
the poor people are trying to get off at the free exit, and you have the
usual idiots slowing down the middle because they want to run up the line
and then break in. All of the PAYING customers are slowed by the people
that shouldn't even be on there in the first place.
Bruce
Bruce
atoztoa <zinj...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>when i lived in the seattle area, the fast lanes were open to whoever
>wanted to go the express route and avoid the regular freeway in and outs,
>at NO charge and NO limits on number of passengers;
The HOV lanes are politically correct bullshit that do nothing for the
majority.
>also, i have lived and worked in large metro areas where the freeway lanes
>had a bnch of reversible lanes to match rush hour traffic;
>
>can you imagine the katy freeway with 8 lanes coming in during the am
>rush, and 8 lanes going out in the pm rush; it works elsewhere, why not
>here???
Have you been on the Katy at rush hour? There are as many fools going in
as coming out. What would you do with them? I can just see it at 5:00pm
monday afternoon. The Schulenburg police are wondering what in the hell is
wrong with I-10. :)
Bruce
Dave
an alternative route. Time is money. Less time costs you more money. What
is more imporant to you?
"Richard R. Priest" wrote:
> The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
> so please excuse my venting.
>
> Let's say a typical commulter used the tollway to travel from the west
> side to the north or south side. The typical toll would be $3.00 each
> way, or $6.00 per day.
>
> Multiplied by 23 working days in a typical month, this is $138.00 per
> month, more than most monthly bills!
>
> It is possible to ride metro buses on an unlimited basis for that
> amount.
>
> To add insult to injury, the driver must stop in traffic at regular
> intervals for the "privledge" of paying a toll each time a major
> highway is intersected.
>
> In addition, I have heard that the EZ Tag lanes have been the cause of
> accidents due to driver slowing down more than is necessary while one
> that "knows better" is behind them.
>
> The Toll Road authority should offer flat-rate monthly pricing to at
> least EZ Tag users that commute on a daily basis.
>
Tracey Levin
It is a private investment that is up for sale, or was just
sold to another group for approx 1 Billion dollars.
A previous mayor, Kathy Queermire, had a great deal to do
with the establishment of toll roads in Houston.
Kathy is a democratic party socialist, and like all good
"Traverlers", she loves government. After returning from a
trip to the socialist utopia, NY City, Queermire had
discovered a solution to all of Houstons traffic problems
and new money for the city. She returned with a hardon for
Toll Roads, and shortly thereafter, Houston was blessed with
two of them.
Another great advent with Queermire was the reduction of
Texana in Houston. At the height of the oil boom, Queermire
decided that Houston had too much of a Texas flavor, and
that we needed to become more of a globalist's paradise
where 500 languages are spoken. Soon, busses, trucks,
planes, trains, and ships were pulling up in Houston and
off-loading thousands of non-English speaking,
non-Americans. Before Queermire, we had only a few slumes
around Houston. Today, much of Houston is looks like a
mexican border town with Chinese street signs. Did someone
say LA???
City government needs to mind its own damn business and stop
trying to "shape" Houston. All government attempts have
failed, as usual. Houstonians can manage Houston far better
than the Commie Lib Welfare Pimps down at City Hall.
Police, Fire, Ambulance, and Road Construction/Repair are
the primary concerns of City Hall, yet, those area suffer
the most. To make themselves feel good, the Commie Libs at
City Hall like to use taxpayer money to buy homes in high
dollar neighborhoods, and give them to welfare recipients
who pay minimal amounts for them. Houston Housing
Authority: A Den of Communists.
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Mike
> majority.
>
/\/\ike
Adam Weiss
atoztoa wrote:
>
> hey, this is houston, not nyc!!!!
>
You're right. This is Houston; not NYC.
But if that's true, then why are the people running the Beltway trying
to emulate the big wormy apple?
Seriously. If the real-estate people started doing the same thing,
they'd start charging $2300 a month for one-bedroom apartments!!!!
--
Adam Weiss
aw...@pdq.net
--
Support the animals.
Support American jobs.
Buy fake fur.
--
Adam Weiss
> --
>
> JRF
You're right. But "Toll Road Authorities" can get out of hand if they
aren't kept in check. In 1952, the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority
of NYC's revenue stood at almost $30 million, its surplus at over $21
million. This surplus could have supported bonds worth $3 billion if
capitalized (Caro, The Power Broker, p. 920). This meant that it could
effectively buy out competing forms of transportation (like the
railroads and bus systems), cut neighborhoods in two forming slums, and
worse....
And the Moses legacy lives on in the big wormy apple -- it costs a
minimum of $3 to enter the city from any direction with a car (plus $14
to park), and crossing the Verazano Narrows Bridge alone costs $7.
Do we really want Houston to become another big wormy apple?
Max F Lang
> Soon, busses, trucks, planes, trains, and ships were
> pulling up in Houston and off-loading thousands of
> non-English speaking, non-Americans.
Hmm, would Canadians or Australians have been OK?!
But not the damn Brits, they speak too funny...
:-) (weak attempt at humor...)
Max, Free*nix junkie.
Just_Plain_Bill
The Dallas-Fort Worth Toll Road was built in 1955 (more or less) and the bonds
were paid off back in the 1980s. At that time, the toll road became free and
also became a part of the interstate highway system.
Bruce wrote:
> In houston.general
> ap...@mindspring.com (Richard R. Priest) wrote:
>
> >
> >The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
> >so please excuse my venting.
>
> No problem. I'm one of its biggest fans. Don't confuse this with being a
> fan of HCTRA though.
>
> >Let's say a typical commulter used the tollway to travel from the west
> >side to the north or south side. The typical toll would be $3.00 each
> >way, or $6.00 per day.
>
> How do you figure three tolls from west to south or north? I get on at
> I-10, get off at West Airport after 59 and pay 1 toll. Reverse for going
> home. if you go all the way to 288, you pay 1 more for a grand total of
> $3.00 per day. You could travel all the way from 45N to 288 for $3.00.
>
> Anyway, I do travel west to south and I spend $1.50 per day, used to spend
> $3 when I worked up north. The 15 minutes of my time saved, and the stress
> relieving cruise at 80mph are worth every penney. I would pay 3X as much,
> but don't tell HCTRA.
>
> >Multiplied by 23 working days in a typical month, this is $138.00 per
> >month, more than most monthly bills!
>
> Boy, you have some cheap bills. If it is too much, there are alternatives.
> Take I-45
>
> >It is possible to ride metro buses on an unlimited basis for that
> >amount.
>
> That is what is called an apples to oranges comparison. You want to ride a
> bus???
>
> >To add insult to injury, the driver must stop in traffic at regular
> >intervals for the "privledge" of paying a toll each time a major
> >highway is intersected.
>
> Not with an Easy Tag. Except for the idiots that stay in the Easy tag lane
> illegally, until the last minute. I toss rotten tomatoes at them :)
>
> >In addition, I have heard that the EZ Tag lanes have been the cause of
> >accidents due to driver slowing down more than is necessary while one
> >that "knows better" is behind them.
>
> Usually, it is some token toting moran waiting until the last minute and
> then trying to cut in line.
>
> >The Toll Road authority should offer flat-rate monthly pricing to at
> >least EZ Tag users that commute on a daily basis.
>
Patrick L. Humphrey
>When the Houston toll roads are paid off, they will become free expressways.
Actually, they'll become freeways -- Houston has very few roads that would
qualify as expressways. (Memorial Drive from just west of Shepherd into
downtown, and Allen Parkway on the other side of the bayou, would be two
vintage examples.)
>The Dallas-Fort Worth Toll Road was built in 1955 (more or less) and the bonds
>were paid off back in the 1980s. At that time, the toll road became free and
>also became a part of the interstate highway system.
The Turnpike was paid off in late 1977 -- I can nail that down pretty closely
because for my 23rd birthday (which was in mid-spring of 1978) I got to go to
Six Flags, and the Turnpike had already been free for six months or so, by
then. (The mainline toll plaza right there in front of Six Flags wasn't being
used any more, but the crossover turnarounds were still in place.)
--PLH, of course, it took another 20 years to get an actual interchange with
I-820, but that's another shaggy story
Bruce
Just_Plain_Bill <whu...@wt.net> wrote:
>When the Houston toll roads are paid off, they will become free expressways.
All I can say is I hope they never get paid off. They will become useless
in a week.
Jim Riley
<jrf...@ibm-pc.org> wrote:
>Some years ago, there was a proposal to do such a massive expansion of
>the Katy, by taking over the abandoned railroad tracks to the north. A
>coalition of light-rail proponents and environmentalists banded to kill
>the idea.
It is still being planned - with the environmental impact study being
done. Construction won't begin before 2001 and may take ten years
(covering 40 miles from downtown to the Brazos River). Current
planning is for 18 lanes between the West Loop and SH6, 9 in each
direction (3 frontage, 4 SOV, and 2 HOV).
Lithium
Patrick L. Humphrey wrote in message ...
>Just_Plain_Bill <whu...@wt.net> writes:
>
>>When the Houston toll roads are paid off, they will become free
expressways.
>
>qualify as expressways. (Memorial Drive from just west of Shepherd into
>downtown, and Allen Parkway on the other side of the bayou, would be two
>vintage examples.)
And the day that happens, it will no longer be anywhere near as effective
(ie unclogged) as it is now... especially around rush hour.
Patrick L. Humphrey
Probably so, but things won't change all that much, I suspect, since there
have been people driving faster than the Tollway speed limits on the Beltway 8
feeders since the day the first section of the feeders opened back in 1985...
--PLH, who used to live a couple of blocks from the original leg of the
Tollway back when it was being built
Lithium
I don't think I've ever seen people driving at the speed limit on the
tollroad.
Mike Duncan
>
>The Sam Houston tollway has always been one of my biggest pet peeves,
>so please excuse my venting.
Preach it! I mean, if I had to travel way the hell out to the middle of
nowhere at rush hour every day, I might feel better about the Sam Houston
Tollway, but both times I used it my response was, "I just spent three bucks
and now I have to fight my way through all the traffic I was supposedly
avoiding in order to get where I'm going."
A friend: "Okay, you take the Sam Houston tollway out to the Funk Daddy
exit, then you -- "
Me: "Yeah, uh huh. So I take 610 to I-10 -- then what?"
Mike
Olaf
olaf
Lithium <li...@swbell.net> wrote in message news:5hjb3.469
Don Sterner
>market will bear. They paid to build the tollway, and have to pay a % to
>the city in order to operate, but otherwise they are free to charge with
>impunity.
Whoa! Who is the "they" that paid to build those tollways. It's
us, the taxpayers, that's who. Private business invested nothing
beyond whatever it took to buy the polititians who voted for it.
Now we pay to ride on the road we built with our tax money.
But that's the theme of the day. Now they're building new
stadiums with tax money - for which you'll pay to park, you'll
pay for the maintenance of them, and you'll pay dearly to attend
events in them while all of the profits go to big business.
Just Plain Bill
I think you (and ther party you are replying to) have it all wrong. The
tollway system was built with bonds backed by Harris County; not taxes. Toll
revenue is used to pay off these bonds and for maintenance. I do not think the
city gets anything from toll revenue unless they get something for security and
fire protection. The toll road authority cannot charge "all that the market
will bear" because they can only raise the revenue it takes to service the
bonds and to cover operating costs. This sytem is not a profit-making opeation
except that bondholders are entitled to receive interest at the rate stated on
the bonds when issued. I'm not saying the system is run efficiently; they
might be better able to control costs, but that is another matter. However,
you should know that the Hardy Street toll road has been a money loser ever
since it was built and the west-side toll way has produced revenue well in
excess of what was expected. The excess revenue from the west side is used to
cover the losses on Hardy street. If it were not far these excess revenues,
the losses on Hardy Street toll road would have to be covered out of general
county tax revenue.
Regards,
Bill
Joel Hopper
<szk1zf6...@eris.io.com>:
>"Lithium" <li...@swbell.net> writes:
>
>>Patrick L. Humphrey wrote in message ...
>>>Just_Plain_Bill <whu...@wt.net> writes:
>
>>>>When the Houston toll roads are paid off, they will become free
expressways.
>
>>>Actually, they'll become freeways -- Houston has very few roads that
would
>>>qualify as expressways. (Memorial Drive from just west of Shepherd into
>>>downtown, and Allen Parkway on the other side of the bayou, would be two
>>>vintage examples.)
>
>>And the day that happens, it will no longer be anywhere near as effective
>>(ie unclogged) as it is now... especially around rush hour.
>
>Probably so, but things won't change all that much, I suspect, since there
>have been people driving faster than the Tollway speed limits on the
Beltway 8
>feeders since the day the first section of the feeders opened back in
1985...
Hell, I've seen people on the feeder going faster than I was on the
beltway... I do the posted speed when I'm not in a hurry (in the middle
lane Olaf ;-) and I see people passing me over on the feeder. It's
ludicrous.
Patrick L. Humphrey
>>"Lithium" <li...@swbell.net> writes:
At least TxDOT acknowledged that it was going on -- notice how in the last
six months or so, the posted speed limits on the Beltway 8 feeders have been
jacked up to either 45 or 50, in most places? Not that it slows anyone down,
but at least _someone_ in Austin is aware of what's going on...
--Patrick L. "what worries me is when you can do the limit on 59 and have
people on _Westpark_ making better time than you" Humphrey
Mike Angwin
>us, the taxpayers, that's who. Private business invested nothing
>beyond whatever it took to buy the polititians who voted for it.
>Now we pay to ride on the road we built with our tax money.
Personally I prefer the idea of tollways. They are built initially
with funds from the sale of bonds, not tax money, and these bonds are
retired with monies collected from those who use the toll roads. Taxpayers
who do not use them, or only rarely use them, are not forced to pay for
something they do not use, while those who do use them most frequently pay
the cost of the roadway. Sounds like a better way to do things to me, in
fact, the only further improvement to be made would be to privatize
ownership entirely.
>
>But that's the theme of the day. Now they're building new
>stadiums with tax money - for which you'll pay to park, you'll
>pay for the maintenance of them, and you'll pay dearly to attend
>events in them while all of the profits go to big business.
Stadium construction by government is an entirely different
proposition. Here, tax monies are used and an intolerable mixture of
government and private businesses take place. Sports teams are privately
owned and should not be subsidized by public funding. If privately owned
businesses are granted such access to public funding where will it end?
Will we begin building Wal-Marts with tax money or begin subsidizing the
construction of McDonalds?
Over the past few decades we have seen the bus system, medical care,
passenger trains, airports, docks, sports stadiums, and a slew of other
private enterprises taken over by government as it moves deeper and deeper
into the private sector. I think we need to establish a doctrine of
separation of ecconomy and state at least as strong as our accepted doctrine
of separation of church and state, before we wake up one day and find
government operating everything from automobile manufacturing to Taco Bell.
/\/\ike
Bruce
"Mike Angwin" <mike....@beginners.net> wrote:
> Personally I prefer the idea of tollways. They are built initially
>with funds from the sale of bonds, not tax money, and these bonds are
>retired with monies collected from those who use the toll roads. Taxpayers
>who do not use them, or only rarely use them, are not forced to pay for
>something they do not use, while those who do use them most frequently pay
>the cost of the roadway. Sounds like a better way to do things to me, in
>fact, the only further improvement to be made would be to privatize
>ownership entirely.
You haven't carried it to the full conclusion. After the users pay for it
and it becomes free, all the free loaders get on it an f&%* it up for the
folks that bought it.
Just Plain Bill
Bruce
Just Plain Bill <whu...@wt.net> wrote:
>Bruce: Life's tough, isn't it?
Obviously one of the freeloaders patiently waiting. Life's apparently not
as tough for me as it is for you bill.
George Worley
Actually it should never become free as the upkeep of the road has to be
paid for. The policing of trash has to be paid for -- sure in quite a
few locations volunteers do that but in locations where there isn't any
volunteers this has to be done.
Mike
> > You haven't carried it to the full conclusion. After the users pay for
it
> > and it becomes free, all the free loaders get on it an f&%* it up for
the
> > folks that bought it.
>
> Actually it should never become free as the upkeep of the road has to be
> paid for. The policing of trash has to be paid for -- sure in quite a
> few locations volunteers do that but in locations where there isn't any
> volunteers this has to be done.
And if it were privately owned and operated, as I believe limited
access roads should be, profits could be used to expand the network creating
even better access.
/\/\ike