Jake's Query for January 2009
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Jake Patterson
Jan 5, 2009, 11:11:17 AM1/5/09
to House of Junto
I'm on the bus the other day and some superior Easterner is talking to
a Utah apologist student heading up to my university. The Easterner
gets to feeling so mighty that he declares, "Back East we don't get an
education in order to have a better job. We do it because an educated
life is a life better lived."
As if getting an education with a career in mind was so base! Was
this guy as full of hooey as I think he is or does he have a
legitimate point? Is an education an end to itself, do you think, or
must it be applied elsewhere to be valuable?
a Utah apologist student heading up to my university. The Easterner
gets to feeling so mighty that he declares, "Back East we don't get an
education in order to have a better job. We do it because an educated
life is a life better lived."
As if getting an education with a career in mind was so base! Was
this guy as full of hooey as I think he is or does he have a
legitimate point? Is an education an end to itself, do you think, or
must it be applied elsewhere to be valuable?
Brett Kraus
Jan 5, 2009, 1:56:46 PM1/5/09
to House of Junto
Two part answer, better educated people commit less crime, are usually
less apt to be racist, and have a greater capacity to make a positive
impact on society. There is value in education itself (this coming
from someone who just recently got out of the Eastern Education
system). It really was a lot of fun being in a society that was as
well educated as that, and there is value to it, great value. However,
most of the people I talked to out there still think that the purpose
of education is to get a career, and any decent job out there required
at least a bachelors degree, and many of those require post graduate
degrees, so I think they still do it to get a job, just more people
there do it than in Utah.
less apt to be racist, and have a greater capacity to make a positive
impact on society. There is value in education itself (this coming
from someone who just recently got out of the Eastern Education
system). It really was a lot of fun being in a society that was as
well educated as that, and there is value to it, great value. However,
most of the people I talked to out there still think that the purpose
of education is to get a career, and any decent job out there required
at least a bachelors degree, and many of those require post graduate
degrees, so I think they still do it to get a job, just more people
there do it than in Utah.
Scott Nesler
Jan 7, 2009, 4:47:06 PM1/7/09
to House of Junto
This is a good philosophical query Jake and well put Brett.
This argument is a catch-22. You need a career to provide a
comfortable living. Until this requirement is fulfilled many
students discount the larger value of an education. Without a
successful career, most are going to get bogged down attempting to
provide for themselves and/or their family. To not understand the
hardship and desire for someone to strive to better themselves can be
labeled as arrogant, I assume this is how Jake felt towards the
Easterner.
Benjamin Franklin did not have a formal education. I'll credit his
method for self improvement to be as good as any formal education.
Ben's career success provided him the financial freedom to retire
early. It was at this point where I see his education was most
beneficial to society and history.
This argument is a catch-22. You need a career to provide a
comfortable living. Until this requirement is fulfilled many
students discount the larger value of an education. Without a
successful career, most are going to get bogged down attempting to
provide for themselves and/or their family. To not understand the
hardship and desire for someone to strive to better themselves can be
labeled as arrogant, I assume this is how Jake felt towards the
Easterner.
Benjamin Franklin did not have a formal education. I'll credit his
method for self improvement to be as good as any formal education.
Ben's career success provided him the financial freedom to retire
early. It was at this point where I see his education was most
beneficial to society and history.
Adam Webster
Jan 7, 2009, 6:07:05 PM1/7/09
to houseo...@googlegroups.com
On a further note, the value of an education these days can easily seem
outweighed by its cost. Sometimes I feel like an idiot for becoming a
teacher, not because I get paid a low salary but because I paid so much
in college tuition and pointless No-Child-Left-Behind test fees that I
will be in debt for over a decade. My friend who manages the grocery
section of a retail store makes more than I will when I get a master's
degree. Some degrees cost more than people can budget to pay them back
with the jobs they need the degrees to get.
outweighed by its cost. Sometimes I feel like an idiot for becoming a
teacher, not because I get paid a low salary but because I paid so much
in college tuition and pointless No-Child-Left-Behind test fees that I
will be in debt for over a decade. My friend who manages the grocery
section of a retail store makes more than I will when I get a master's
degree. Some degrees cost more than people can budget to pay them back
with the jobs they need the degrees to get.
Isabel Patterson
Jan 7, 2009, 7:01:07 PM1/7/09
to houseo...@googlegroups.com
Personally I think that guy was full of it! I'm from the East and I don't know anyone who thinks that way! In the East we get an education and that is the important thing. It doesn't matter what you major in as long as you get a degree. Unless you're going to be an attorney or doctor it really doesn't matter.
I've known people that had a wide range of degrees and got great jobs in a completely different field than their degree. Thats why I majored in History. I thought that I would be able to get a job in whatever. But alas I'm still here in Utah and here it does seem to matter. I'm in Human Resource and it has nothing to do with history.
Maybe the guy on the bus meant that we get an education to get an education and then you fall into a career. Thats my take on it. That makes more sense.
I really do value my education and my only gripe is that people without degrees sometimes make more money than me!!! AKA: people investing in real estate!
Jake Patterson
Jan 7, 2009, 9:18:39 PM1/7/09
to House of Junto
lol@isabel. Yeah, well, the real estate investors you're thinking of
are just plain jerks.
I think I can appreciate his point better with what you've shared,
Izzy. You get a good education and then you call into a career. And
what you said, Adam. One pays far more than an education repays you,
but the education itself is worth quite a bit.
I may be responding to my own jaded feelings toward school right now,
because I'm in my fifth senior year and I'm still jumping hoops trying
to make sure I graduate. But I do feel that my life is better because
of what I have experienced in school and the other educated people and
opinions I have been exposed to.
Scott brought up the point of BF's education, which was watching his
father make candles. But he was as disciplined as he was educated,
and it was by meticulous observation and strict discipline that he
became the man we all admire. On the other hand I know several people
who have gone through college and seem to be total idiots.
So a follow-up question might be if we believe that self-discipline
and education can improve a life independently, or if they rely on
each other to truly affect someone. In BF's case he certainly got
along without formal education and we all admire him, but would that
work today? If not, what differences between today's society and back
then make it so?
On Jan 7, 5:01 pm, "Isabel Patterson" <isabelcpatter...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
are just plain jerks.
I think I can appreciate his point better with what you've shared,
Izzy. You get a good education and then you call into a career. And
what you said, Adam. One pays far more than an education repays you,
but the education itself is worth quite a bit.
I may be responding to my own jaded feelings toward school right now,
because I'm in my fifth senior year and I'm still jumping hoops trying
to make sure I graduate. But I do feel that my life is better because
of what I have experienced in school and the other educated people and
opinions I have been exposed to.
Scott brought up the point of BF's education, which was watching his
father make candles. But he was as disciplined as he was educated,
and it was by meticulous observation and strict discipline that he
became the man we all admire. On the other hand I know several people
who have gone through college and seem to be total idiots.
So a follow-up question might be if we believe that self-discipline
and education can improve a life independently, or if they rely on
each other to truly affect someone. In BF's case he certainly got
along without formal education and we all admire him, but would that
work today? If not, what differences between today's society and back
then make it so?
On Jan 7, 5:01 pm, "Isabel Patterson" <isabelcpatter...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Personally I think that guy was full of it! I'm from the East and I don't
> know anyone who thinks that way! In the East we get an education and that
> is the important thing. It doesn't matter what you major in as long as you
> get a degree. Unless you're going to be an attorney or doctor it really
> doesn't matter.
>
> I've known people that had a wide range of degrees and got great jobs in a
> completely different field than their degree. Thats why I majored in
> History. I thought that I would be able to get a job in whatever. But alas
> I'm still here in Utah and here it does seem to matter. I'm in Human
> Resource and it has nothing to do with history.
>
> Maybe the guy on the bus meant that we get an education to get an education
> and then you fall into a career. Thats my take on it. That makes more
> sense.
> I really do value my education and my only gripe is that people without
> degrees sometimes make more money than me!!! AKA: people investing in real
> estate!
>
> know anyone who thinks that way! In the East we get an education and that
> is the important thing. It doesn't matter what you major in as long as you
> get a degree. Unless you're going to be an attorney or doctor it really
> doesn't matter.
>
> I've known people that had a wide range of degrees and got great jobs in a
> completely different field than their degree. Thats why I majored in
> History. I thought that I would be able to get a job in whatever. But alas
> I'm still here in Utah and here it does seem to matter. I'm in Human
> Resource and it has nothing to do with history.
>
> Maybe the guy on the bus meant that we get an education to get an education
> and then you fall into a career. Thats my take on it. That makes more
> sense.
> I really do value my education and my only gripe is that people without
> degrees sometimes make more money than me!!! AKA: people investing in real
> estate!
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Jake Patterson <empireofp...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm on the bus the other day and some superior Easterner is talking to
> > a Utah apologist student heading up to my university. The Easterner
> > gets to feeling so mighty that he declares, "Back East we don't get an
> > education in order to have a better job. We do it because an educated
> > life is a life better lived."
>
> > As if getting an education with a career in mind was so base! Was
> > this guy as full of hooey as I think he is or does he have a
> > legitimate point? Is an education an end to itself, do you think, or
> > must it be applied elsewhere to be valuable?- Hide quoted text -
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm on the bus the other day and some superior Easterner is talking to
> > a Utah apologist student heading up to my university. The Easterner
> > gets to feeling so mighty that he declares, "Back East we don't get an
> > education in order to have a better job. We do it because an educated
> > life is a life better lived."
>
> > As if getting an education with a career in mind was so base! Was
> > this guy as full of hooey as I think he is or does he have a
> > legitimate point? Is an education an end to itself, do you think, or
>
> - Show quoted text -
Scott Nesler
Jan 8, 2009, 8:12:40 AM1/8/09
to House of Junto
jJake, I was attempting to draw Benjamin Franklin into the formal
education crowd. BF was an extensive reader. He was often
disciplined by his father and then later by his brother James for
spending too much time with his head behind a book. The fact that
he help establish the first public library system in the country
illustrates his broad interest in books. He also like to experiment
and collaborated to share his knowledge and learn from others.
I'm not attempting to discount universities. Actually, I feel it
would have been easier for BF to get a university education than to
take the route he did. There were not universities available to
him. Based on his discipline, I doubt a university education would
have prepared him any better.
To answer Jake's latest query. I believe someone with the discipline
to self education themselves could succeed today, but it would be
difficult. A formal education gets you into doors. Intelligent
motivated individuals lacking a degree will be discriminated
against. Many careers or fields will not even allow you to
participate without a formal degree.
It is the rare case today to find someone with the discipline of
BF. I don't believe that we are busier. It could be that the
media and couch potato society that we have today reduces the desire
for self-discipline to educate. I would also claim that BF was the
exception in his period.
I would discount a query that times were different. If we measured
the differences in times, I would say they pretty much even out with
respect to pursuing self improvement.
education crowd. BF was an extensive reader. He was often
disciplined by his father and then later by his brother James for
spending too much time with his head behind a book. The fact that
he help establish the first public library system in the country
illustrates his broad interest in books. He also like to experiment
and collaborated to share his knowledge and learn from others.
I'm not attempting to discount universities. Actually, I feel it
would have been easier for BF to get a university education than to
take the route he did. There were not universities available to
him. Based on his discipline, I doubt a university education would
have prepared him any better.
To answer Jake's latest query. I believe someone with the discipline
to self education themselves could succeed today, but it would be
difficult. A formal education gets you into doors. Intelligent
motivated individuals lacking a degree will be discriminated
against. Many careers or fields will not even allow you to
participate without a formal degree.
It is the rare case today to find someone with the discipline of
BF. I don't believe that we are busier. It could be that the
media and couch potato society that we have today reduces the desire
for self-discipline to educate. I would also claim that BF was the
exception in his period.
I would discount a query that times were different. If we measured
the differences in times, I would say they pretty much even out with
respect to pursuing self improvement.
Jake Patterson
Jan 19, 2009, 6:59:28 PM1/19/09
to House of Junto
Well you're right that a degree is required for some fields. Yours in
particular. Mine, certainly. At the particular company I work at I
will never be considered for upward movement or a move into the
education department unless I have a bachelor's in clinical lab
science. My degree in corporate education isn't good enough for
them. ???
I think that the broad conclusion of my secondary question is that
Univsersities provide a formalized and structured format that enables
people to become educated more easily than one could on their own. I
still wouldn't draw BF into the formal education crowd. Sure he did
experiments and became famous for his work with electricity, but it
was from his informal readings that he learned how to conduct these
experiments and what sort of findings the broad world would be
interested in.
I agree with you in the assessment that we are not a busier people.
Well, some of us are. But we have come from a time when the average
man spent sunrise to sundown in his fields or on the range to an eight
hour average working day. We OUGHT to be ever more educated and
intellectual. Unfortunately half of us are proud members of the couch
potato society and the half with any motivation are trying to get
famous on youtube.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
particular. Mine, certainly. At the particular company I work at I
will never be considered for upward movement or a move into the
education department unless I have a bachelor's in clinical lab
science. My degree in corporate education isn't good enough for
them. ???
I think that the broad conclusion of my secondary question is that
Univsersities provide a formalized and structured format that enables
people to become educated more easily than one could on their own. I
still wouldn't draw BF into the formal education crowd. Sure he did
experiments and became famous for his work with electricity, but it
was from his informal readings that he learned how to conduct these
experiments and what sort of findings the broad world would be
interested in.
I agree with you in the assessment that we are not a busier people.
Well, some of us are. But we have come from a time when the average
man spent sunrise to sundown in his fields or on the range to an eight
hour average working day. We OUGHT to be ever more educated and
intellectual. Unfortunately half of us are proud members of the couch
potato society and the half with any motivation are trying to get
famous on youtube.
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