Check this new web page "Volunteers dashboard"

[Mithrilforge]

Hi there,

Here's a Volunteer's Dashboard, so people wanting to Help can add
their profile. in this way we can track down who would like to
participate quickly: We can list the roles needed for the project too
so people can volunteer on them more easily.

I don't know if it will be ok, I hope it will be helpful.

Go to check it at http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard.

[Gus Fune]

Click on http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard
- or copy & paste it into your browser's address bar if that doesn't
work.

[OdieTurbo]

If someone can add this, I'd appreciate it. For some reason I can't
edit it... Keeps messing up all the formatting when I try to edit.

Member Nickname: OdieTurbo (Todd)
Profile: Data Analyst, knowledgeable in Database design, query design,
and some data warehousing too.
What can offer to do: Any database work, importing, redesigning,
streamlining, etc.
Availability: Depends (single dad of 3 girls)
Working on: Nothing yet

[Flakk]

Here, i added yours Odie.
do you want info in : "Availability & Working on:" ?

[rikker]

Added my profile. I'm an American in Bangkok -- I can help digitize
manuals and boxes Sarinee has lying around needing be done, help check
and backup her archive CDs onto hard drive, etc. Scanning and document
digitization is a lot of my research, so I'm all over that stuff.

[LuaPineapple]

Q: Where can we find out if our offer is accepted? Will it be by a
message on this board, an email to our google email account or
something else?

[Lord_Pall]

I didn't think there was an acceptance or denial.... I thought it was
more of a list of people who could help out..

I'd love some assistance with the continuation on the Http://www.hotud.org
archive. PHP, Design, Download security, user extensions are all
necessary in addition to expansion (scans, pdf's, images, etcetera).

Once that stuff's done I'm going to need moderators as well to help
manage the addition and expansion of the site, both on the forums and
for the listings, so that's also an option for those who don't want to
do page design.

If you're interested, drop me a mail. The more, the merrier.

-Dan

[Nacho]

Hi Lua,

Don't worry about it, stay tuned and we'll wrap it up all together so we can form some teams to cover all the areas involved.

As soon as we propose some affinity groups (Design,Architecture,Database,Software collection,Content reviewing...) to work on, everybody could choose in which team to stay and every team could choose a vocal or two. Coordination and cooperation could work better like this, and it could be included in the volunteers dashboard.

<Everybody> What do you think about it?

2009/3/9 LuaPineapple <theappleo...@gmail.com>

[mithri...@gmail.com]

Hi Lord_Pall,

On 9 mar, 16:02, Lord_Pall <lordp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't think there was an acceptance or denial.... I thought it was
> more of a list of people who could help out..

Yes, it's a list of people to be taken into account.
Everybody is invited to help and should be accepted to work on it, but
we need to coordinate all the efforts to save energy and go in the
right direction -together-.

> I'd love some assistance with the continuation on the Http://www.hotud.org
> archive. PHP, Design, Download security, user extensions are all
> necessary in addition to expansion (scans, pdf's, images, etcetera).

I think there's starting to be a problem with that. All of what is
being done (the Hotud domain creation, the hosting, the framework and
the porting) has'nt been validated by everybody and we're still at a
debate about it.

You cannot push your way regardless of anything that has been said or
proposed by many active people in this group: If you want to make your
own site there's not any problem with it, but you cannot oblige
everybody to go on your way.

Regards,
Nacho.

[Lord_Pall]

>
> > I'd love some assistance with the continuation on the Http://www.hotud.org
> > archive. PHP, Design, Download security, user extensions are all
> > necessary in addition to expansion (scans, pdf's, images, etcetera).
>
> I think there's starting to be a problem with that. All of what is
> being done (the Hotud domain creation, the hosting, the framework and
> the porting) has'nt been validated by everybody and we're still at a
> debate about it.

>
> You cannot push your way regardless of anything that has been said or
> proposed by many active people in this group: If you want to make your
> own site there's not any problem with it, but you cannot oblige
> everybody to go on your way.

I believe this is a good opportunity for the community to help out
with a revival project. This isn't anything but a request using the
volunteer and community dashboard. I fail to see any difference
between the HOTUD.org revival and any other plans that are being
discussed. They are all community efforts, and should all be welcomed
and supported.

The more, the merrier!

[Nacho]

Yes, there are some differences with the original plan:

- Sarinee wanted us to work on a cooperative, community driven project: If you force any choice of what has to be done not taking into account the rest of the people, it's a personal project.
- Dan and Andrew are insisting on doing what should be done step by step, but this is not being followed up by hotud.org.
- The plan is to rebuild first Hotu as it was and have a snapshot copy, to help historians and the KEEP preservation project. Once rebuilt, a new brand site based on standards could be developed.

Your effort is impressive and very good, but it goes away day by day from the original project.

I hope people does'nt confuse hotud.org with the original project, so we'll have to include an entry in the About/FAQ about each of them.
Of course, everybody is free to choose what to do, and the dashboard will be a reference for anybody looking for support.

2009/3/9 Lord_Pall <lord...@gmail.com>

[Lord_Pall]

I'm still not quite following the difference. I welcome involvement,
and relish working with the members of the community. I'm unsure how
this has suddenly been cast as a conflict between the work that me and
Chris are doing and the rest of this group.

None of the work that I'm doing precludes any historical preservation.
In fact, it will assist, as the rebuilds that I'm going through can be
used to generate validation data for any historical reconstruction. I
am being open, honest, and trying to be helpful and up-front with what
I am doing and how much I would like everyone to be involved. It is
not mutually exclusive, and by no means is a non-community driven
direction.

I completely disagree with your characterization about my approaches
not being community oriented, and would prefer to keep the discussion
at a constructive and positive level on how we can work together on a
variety of these reconstructions, restorations and reimaginings of the
original source data.

We're all working towards the same goal. Cataloging and archiving of
history in a form that people can use, expand and that will open up
these games for a new generation of player.

Let's focus on how we push forward at all levels.

On Mar 9, 9:58 pm, Nacho <mithrilfo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, there are some differences with the original plan:
>
> - Sarinee wanted us to work on a cooperative, community driven project: If
> you force any choice of what has to be done not taking into account the rest
> of the people, it's a personal project.
> - Dan and Andrew are insisting on doing what should be done step by step,
> but this is not being followed up by hotud.org.
> - The plan is to rebuild first Hotu as it was and have a snapshot copy, to
> help historians and the KEEP preservation project. Once rebuilt, a new brand
> site based on standards could be developed.
>
> Your effort is impressive and very good, but it goes away day by day from
> the original project.
>
> I hope people does'nt confuse hotud.org with the original project, so we'll
> have to include an entry in the About/FAQ about each of them.
> Of course, everybody is free to choose what to do, and the dashboard will be
> a reference for anybody looking for support.
>

> 2009/3/9 Lord_Pall <lordp...@gmail.com>

[Andrew Armstrong]

At the moment, Lord Pall, we don't know who you are, what you intend to really do (after you've supposedly got all the data back up), where you're hosting the data or what data you're intending to host (now and in the future), how you're going to manage it all, who's paying for it, where the backups will be, who will have admin access, what you will do about any potential legal issues, how you'll track changes to your data, how you'll vet entries or prepare new content, how you'll allow access to people actually interested in downloading the database for analysis, who will "own" any of the data on the site, and many more items.

How you can classify this as a community project when only two of you are basically doing it by yourselves is a little beyond me! :) We haven't even got the database properly sorted into more or less it's original form by some people who actually know the entire set of old data is not even relational. I'm not sure how you've got a functioning set of data without doing this yourself at some point? You never mentioned it apart from importing something, somehow.

Little issues like this can't get a community effort going. I appreciate the efforts, of course, it just currently is a black box which, apart from nuggets of information you've posted, I'm really finding it hard to figure out what is going on!

I'd appreciate it if you do want some major help, posting a new page on the specs of the website you're creating, it's aims, and other important information I question above would be a good idea. Volunteers might  be able to stay anonymous, but for a community project like this, working off data provided for it, there is some necessary responsibility to be taken.

Andrew

[Artful_Gamer]

Andrew,

I assume that you know who I am since I have contributed actively to
your ongoing preservation efforts with the IDGA GP group, and I will
be seeing many of the GP folks in a few short weeks at the GDC - which
I am really looking forward to.

You bring up some important points regarding the specifics/goals of
the project, many of which remain unanswered. I contacted Lord_Pall
because I noticed he was working on getting some of the data online in
a usable fashion, and he obviously has been asking for some help with
that all along. After reading through the rest of the group, I was not
aware of any real efforts to convert the data into a usable form until
he got into the nitty-gritty of actually doing it. He posted his
efforts publicly and has repeatedly asked for help in doing that... to
which there has been surprising amount of resistance and criticism.

He very graciously accepted the (very!) limited help I could offer,
and gave me all the tools and access necessary in order to get the
work done; I've never got the sense that this is a 'one man team', and
my contributions have been met with courtesy. That is as much
community as I need! :)

There are many, many, many, ways to run a project. Some people prefer
working out all of the details for weeks or months before they get
started, and others prefer diving in and putting out fires as they
come up. I'm passionate about HOTU, and seeing it alive and kickin'
again on the web is my #1 priority, so I don't mind playing it a
little fast and easy. When things become politicized like this and
turned into a question of moral ownership, it really detracts from the
enjoyment of it all, don't you think? The disparity of visions for the
various projects proposed on here really says something, and I like
the focused effort that HOTUD.org is starting to form into. I think
this is a very viable revitalization project.

I know as much about this project as you do, aside from the little bit
of CSS/PHP/HTML work I've contributed. Perhaps Lord_Pall has a better
sense of where HOTUD.org might go than I do, and a *slightly* more
generous way of asking him about it might yield more nuggets. :)

That being said, if you need information of any kind don't hesitate to
ask. I can't promise that I'll respond right away because I'm really
struggling with the layout/coloration at the moment. (And hell, any
suggestions on design/layout at this point would be great!) Even a
community of two can grow.

- Chris
The Artful Gamer

[Lord_Pall]

Let's go down the list. I'll answer what I know and I'll call out what
I don't know the anwer to right now

Who Am I - Dan Rubenfield, Game Designer for over 13 years. Someone
who has seen these games and the HOTU site and other classic gaming
sites have an active effect oin my day to day work and creative
activities.I am 34, married and currently live in Helsinki even though
I am not a Finn.

What do I intend to really do - Bring up the entire HOTU archive,
with all of the files and a new frontend. Searchable, Browsable, and
most importantly, expandable. I'd like to introduce a new style of
archive listing with higher resolution images, higher res covers and
documentation scans, user comments, user reviews, more detail in the
company profiles, etc. HOTU++, but expanded by the community.

Where I'm hosting the data- Split right now. the heavy lifting is
going to be somewhere else(unsure exactly where), but the frontend is
at my host in the US.

What I intend to host - All of the content actually. Text, zips, Docs,
etc. I would like it to be expandable.

Who's paying for it - I am paying for it. If this stuff ends up
requiring a dedicated box, I'll probably have to setup a community
donation thing like underground-gamer.

Where the backups will be - I'd like to have a few actually. Local
backups on the frontend, remote backups for the file archive, local
(my machine backups), and probably 1 or 2 extras on amazon s3 or other
archival locations.

How I'll manage it - Lightly. I want to get a few admins added to the
site to manage the addition of content. It'll be managed the same way
a community manages a forums.

How will I track changes - Jreviews already does this. Each new
listing goes into a queue where admins can review it. Workflow isn't
too bad right now, and with the intro of Docman, we can do the same
thing with files.

How will I handle legal issues - Classic C+D email. Publisher sends a
mail, game or infringing material comes down. For anything more
specific it'll be case by case.

Who will have admin access - Whoever from the community wants to help
out at that level. Forum moderators, preservationist, activists, etc.

How will we vet entries - See above. Admin's will handle the reviews
and posting of new entries. (Might be a sub-class of user actually,
but you get the general idea)

Database access - Unusure actually. Once we get a "final database,
we'll probably have to setup a way to request this and we can just do
a manual dump. I'd like to to be part of the backups anyways.


Once again, there's no conflict here. We're working under the same
common umbrella, even if we have different end-user goals. Let's push
forward with these efforts, not mine or yours, but ours.

Constructive feedback and volunteers are still welcomed, so anyone who
wants to help is welcome, across whichever preservation you prefer...

[Lord_Pall]

Also, Andrew if you'd like admin rights, drop me a mail. I'll get you
access to the backend so you can see more closely what I'm talking
about.

[Nacho]

Hi Dan,

Your work is very valuable, no doubt about it. Getting to the point, the only problem is that you are working mostly on your own taking choices that had'nt been supported or validated by the rest of the people there. That's what I've been repeatedly saying several times.

Some people like me doesn't want to use a framework like Joomla, but everything has been pushed without any debate about how it will be done. It's true that for many people the technical issues/choices mean nothing to them, and your way is a nice choice to go on so they want to start feeding HOTU as a website again as soon as possible.

For some others we need to decide a consistent architecture with a specific platform, domain, filing capacities, etc... We need to talk about a consistent database schema, to rebuild first the original site. Once the site is rebuilt by itself (and with some reverse-engineering of the database), we can plan to move to a better HOTU site intended to be kept alive for a very long time. For that we'll avoid to depend on future problems with private webhosters, working with public institutions in the appropiate way.

All the design and framework implementations can offer short-term results, but they need to be carefully chosen and approved.

At the time hotud.org will be released it's possible that on the other side some other choices will be taken, in a more democratic manner and with the help of public institutions. That will lead securely to a different project.

The best thing to do is to fork or to unite: it's easy. We fork, two projects and an explanation in the About/FAQ page. We unite, you should stop for a while and listen/follow the lead of Dan P. and Andrew.

Forking is not a bad thing, but it will divide the efforts.

2009/3/9 Lord_Pall <lord...@gmail.com>

[Dan Pinchbeck]

Hi all,

Haven't had much of a chance to follow things up in the last few days, so apologies for that.

In terms of this discussion, let me state my position really clearly and let you know where we're at.

I think there are two things happening here - one is the retrieval and preservation of the original data - this includes both the website and the hosted files. The second is the continuation and development of a site that stays true to the spirit of what HoTU was/is all about. On one hand, we have essentially preservationists attempting to record what we see as an important artifact for posterity and future study; on the other we have developers creating a phoenix from the ashes - and of course, to a large extent, we're talking about the same people.

From the preservationist side, what I want is to rescue as much data as we can and dump it into a secure yet accessible location - this is what I see as my role in this. Given I work for a university, this may take a little time, but what I want to be able to do is host the old data, back it all up and make sure it's protected for the future.

At the same time, I'm really interested in what Dan is doing, and I think it's good that the site is progressing. My ideal situation would be a two-server site really. We'd host the actual files themselves - we can offer a very stable hosting solution (once I've got the verbal agreements turned into written ones as far as our IT dept goes) - which can then be used as the backend for the user-interface site which is hosted privately, so is far more accessible and adaptable. That way, we get the best of both worlds.

So my current situation is I'm working on getting agreement for the server space. This is a little complicated as I've got to go through a security and firewall assessment before any space will be set aside. Once that's done, I'll be asking for a copy of all files and I'll get them imported across. I'll also work into that some kind of very crude architecture to make the files accessible from links from the public site.

Realistically, I'm not going to have that much time to help out on that initially - will try and get some stuff done, at least looking over it - over the next few days, but I'm going to concentrate on the preservation server side of things. I may need some help with the architecture and build at some point here - I'm OK with HTML and even a bit of XML, but databases start getting out of my depth really fast (I'm a handwaver/theorist primarily, so can't normally tie my own laces without assistance)

So I have quite a specific agenda really - first thing is save the files, preserve the data. Rebuilding alongside this is an excellent thing to do, but I need to split the two things up so I can prioritise what time I have (I'm not trying to make out my time is in anyway *more precious* than anyone elses, just trying to be realistic about the fact I happen to be really snowed under right now).

So I think we can unite, behind two seperate tasks. There's no reason to split the project, which I think would do more to potentially derail the entire effort, but let's recognise that people have different agendas and requirements and work towards those. Let's secure the data first - that's a critical issue and needs solving fast, as these things tend to evaporate quickly.

That's me anyway - and I do think, regardless of the important issues raised here, that Dan does deserve credit for taking the initiative and getting cracking on with a redevelopment. Maybe a stock-taking exercise is a good thing - how about a IM conference call?

Cheers

Dan



Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk

>>> Nacho <mithri...@gmail.com> 10/03/09 8:12 AM >>>

[Lord_Pall]

Each of these projects are not mutually exclusive or competing.
There's no reason that hotud.org or any of the other suggested
approaches cannot be hosted on a public institution, guaranteed to be
around for years.

These projects are immensely personal, to everyone involved. Let
people work the way they want to work, share as much information,
ideas and tools as we can, and throw open the floodgates for
everyone. Archival, Public expansion, community growth are all noble
goals, and each of these is served differently depending on the
approach chosen.

As Dan P. points out, the retrieval efforts that are underway, the
database unification, the file recovery are all integral to this
process. Saving the data, organizing it, putting it onto a permanent
archive for the ages is a high priority.

The hotud.org site, is focused on continuing the site, continuing the
community, reviving the idea behind it. It doesn't conflict with the
goals of the preservationist, and as I said earlier, it can help by
scouring the world for the remaining files. We're all working towards
the common goal of recreating an immense dataset.

Let's focus on working together and push forward with the recovery
efforts, as well as improving the hotud.org frontend, and community so
that we can push forward with the archive, adding data, and making
sure that everyone all over the world can access these games, history
and stories.

[Andrew Armstrong]

This is fine (and this is a reply to this and your previous more
informative post), just as I've said before Dan - a changing, CMS-based
system is going to change - this isn't good for preservation work as
such - there is a necessary need to do a proper (complete, unlike the
wayback machine for the most part) accessible backup of the old site and
layout/look/information.

This can just be a subdomain of whatever, or just the old domain can
host it even if it is hosted on the same server as any new project work.
It can also be put on the archive.org in a zip file too.

They are mutually exclusive of course. A changing website, even with
some kind of version control and adminship, has issues since it just
isn't the original site. This isn't a theme change, it's a rebuild, and
I know I would in the future want access to as a complete backup of the
original site before it went down as possible - especially since a new
site might well restructure, remove, edit and alter information for
whatever reason, which is like going back to newspaper archives and
doctoring photos or events with a black marker - it doesn't help the
preservation side if someone wanted to in 100 years check what this
random site looked like before the theme changed to OMG Ponies! in 2090
and the database was altered beyond all recognition ;)

Any newer site is a good idea, and I'm all for you working on it, it
just is an entirely separate thing. :)

I suggest getting a page started on your site's project and putting the
majority of the information you've got going on it there. This then can
be edited and changed as we have suggestions and as new things are
thought of, for instance, who really vets the admins and people who can
change the data? (We don't want for instance stagnation, with no
activity, such as before, but we don't want fights or "The Wikipedia
Effect" - people trying to be admins just for the power). It depends on
how serious you want the site to be really, this is all up in the air :)

Basically, I see it as the data is, as you've shown on that domain,
available online in some capacity - at least the DB information is
searchable etc. - and so these other details need sorting.

Andrew

[Mithrilforge]

I updated this web page:

- Removed "Roles Needed" (pointless, any necessity will pop out at the
mailing list)
- Added a detail at the beginning: "...If you see that nobody is
still offering you a task to do, feel free to contact the active
members of the group (Andrew Armstrong, Lord_Pall, Artful_Gamer, Tom
Carrick, ...)"

If somebody wants to add/remove himself It will help to make helpful
people to contact them.

Go to: http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard.

Regards,
Nacho

[hatdio]

[BallparkFrank]

I just found out about the project, and would like to help if I can
assist in some way.

[Walter]

Hey guys, added myself to the dashboard, currently diving in to try to
understand the state of the data (5AM here in China)... really hope I
can be of assistance.

http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard

[Siddhartha]

Just added myself, too. I'm really keen on learning web technologies,
but I have no prior experience with this stuff. So if there's
something relatively simple that can get me going, send it my way! I
am pretty busy though, so I'm not exactly sure how much time I can
commit.
Thanks!

[kazagistar]

Yo, my name is Jakub, but I go by Kazagistar online. Last time I
visited HOTU I saw it was dieing, but this is... a disaster. Put
simply, I believe that losing all the data on this website is simply
not an option. Games should never disappear, just because new, more
popular and flashy ones have been released. I added my profile to the
volunteers dashboard, and I hope I can be of some assistance.

[residentgrey]

Added me info.

[daniel....@googlemail.com]

Klicken Sie auf http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard.
Falls dies nicht funktioniert, kopieren Sie den Link und fügen ihn in
die Adressleiste Ihres Browsers ein.

[kc00l]

Hi there,
i've just updated http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival/web/volunteers-dashboard
with my profile member.
Looking forward to bring my contribution,
Cheers!