Horn RIP?

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Paul Cowan

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Jun 17, 2010, 11:30:14 AM6/17/10
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Hi all,

The horn descriptors are in a state of disrepair and the horn website does not seems to contain more failed builds than successful builds.

Development has stopped and I think it is time to call it a day.

The good people at IMeta pay for the server and I think it is only fair that we relinquish our space back.

I just wanted to give one final chance for somebody to say "no".

If not, I think it is a case of "So long and thanks for all the fish".

I am considering having a real funeral to mark the demise :-)

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/

Humberto Franco

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Jun 17, 2010, 12:14:56 PM6/17/10
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No!!! I really think this is a very useful tool.  Especially the site containing pre-built packages. 

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Paul Cowan

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Jun 18, 2010, 3:40:49 AM6/18/10
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I looked on the server yesterday and most of the castle builds are failing due to out of date descriptors I think.

Castle not building has a knock on affect to the other packages.

In fact not a lot is building.

I just do not have the time for it any more and I am not doing as much .NET these days anyway.

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



sbohlen

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Jun 18, 2010, 4:43:29 AM6/18/10
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Disappointing, but not unexpected.

This project (pretty ambitiously IMO) tried to take on solving one of
the more persistent challenges in the .NET OSS space in a clever and
creative manner. Its failure isn't so much one of technology as one
of community.

Sadly, the *problems* that this project tried to solve still exist and
while its possible to look at this as a 'failed experiment' for all
kinds different of reasons, I'd still suggest that it played a
significant role in raising the (general) awareness of problem in
the .NET OSS space.

Whether or not the .NET OSS 'community' of committers and contributors
chooses to recognize the intrinsic value in having these problems
solved (by HORN or anything eles) and the corresponding inherent
friction that this issue represents to general wider adoption of .NET
OSS projects will probably be the final arbiter of whether or not this
effort was in vain or in furtherance of a laudable set of goals.

FWIW, I personally appreciate the effort, creativity, and drive that
resulted in this project -- certainly coming to its initial release/
implementation in the middle of what I call "the great git upheaval"
couldn't have been a minor effort. All too often people tend to
underestimate the level of commitment it takes to drive a project (any
project) to eventual completion and the sheer number of perpetually-at-
version-0.2 OSS projects out there speak to this in a big way.

There's no shame in trying and failing after a herculean effort. The
shame would have been in giving up prematurely. Although ultimately
unsuccessful at fully solving the problems it tries to address, HORN
was a very respectable shot at grappling with a really complicated set
of issues (technical and sociological).

I have to agree that in its present state its probably a
(disappointing) failed experiment in herding cats with little chance
of future success. But I still lament its passing for the HOPE it
represented.

Thanks for the effort and the vision, guys.

-Steve B.

Paul Cowan

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Jun 18, 2010, 6:02:09 AM6/18/10
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@sbolen

Thanks for that well articulated post.

@everyone

On hindsight, the solution required all relevant OSS to get involved.

I never thought about community building when it came to OSS but if you do not drive developers or usage of the product then it will, as has happened here, die.

OSS development requires a lot of personal sacrifice and is to some extent hobbyist.  I certainly attacked horn because it was fun and not for the betterment of mankind or .NET OSS.

People will concentrate on their own project as that is what is important and time is very scarce.

There seem to be another few initiatives out there right now.

I hope one or more creates something useful.

The very fact that we got something out there that was useful for this very difficult problem is enough for me to make it seem worthwhile.  

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Philip.Laureano

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Jun 18, 2010, 6:04:40 AM6/18/10
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RIP, indeed. How about changing the license to BSD so someone else down the line can pick up where the project died?


Paul Cowan

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Jun 18, 2010, 6:13:59 AM6/18/10
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>> How about changing the license to BSD

do you mean on the google code site?

I will certainly do that.

Anybody who wants to take over is very much encouraged to.

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Jeffry Morris

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Jun 17, 2010, 9:16:06 PM6/17/10
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I just finally used it to get the NHIbernate trunk. Worked like a charm, I think it would be a little early to end it before it starts getting usage.

Jeffry Morris

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Jun 20, 2010, 1:43:17 PM6/20/10
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Paul (and anybody involved) -

Thanks for the effort. Good luck on your future endeavors.

-Jeff

Steve Strong

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Jun 21, 2010, 5:34:58 AM6/21/10
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Thanks for all your efforts on this Paul, it's a shame that not more people have got behind it.

Of course, the code is still available and (as of now, at least) the website is still live.  Is anyone out there going to pick this up?  If not, then we'll probably decommission the website; not much point keeping it if the descriptors gradually rot.

Cheers,

Steve

Paul Cowan

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Jun 21, 2010, 5:42:43 AM6/21/10
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I would like to say a massive thanks to IMeta for backing us.

It is very rare to find companies willing to use OSS in .NET in my experience, never mind give backing like this or supply code contributions to NHibernate  etc.

In my opinion too many people just get away with using OSS without giving anything back.

You guys have definitely given back in a big way.

I think my next blog post will be something along the lines of

"Post mortem of an OSS project" :-)

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Paul Batum

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Jun 23, 2010, 5:13:41 AM6/23/10
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I just wanted to pipe up and say that the hornget website helped me out today. I wanted a build of NH validator against the NH trunk and it saved me the trouble. I find the command line tool is too slow and error prone to be much use but the hornget website is very handy. I'll be sad to see it go.

Gauthier Segay

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Jun 23, 2010, 7:05:30 AM6/23/10
to HORN Development
I expect horn to help me when I'll take time to update my dependencies
(castle + nh trunk + other bits) in my projects

It would be really sad to let it go

On Jun 23, 2:13 am, Paul Batum <paul.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just wanted to pipe up and say that the hornget website helped me out
> today. I wanted a build of NH validator against the NH trunk and it saved me
> the trouble. I find the command line tool is too slow and error prone to be
> much use but the hornget website is very handy. I'll be sad to see it go.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Paul Cowan <dag...@scotalt.net> wrote:
> > I would like to say a massive thanks to IMeta for backing us.
>
> > It is very rare to find companies willing to use OSS in .NET in my
> > experience, never mind give backing like this or supply code contributions
> > to NHibernate  etc.
>
> > In my opinion too many people just get away with using OSS without giving
> > anything back.
>
> > You guys have definitely given back in a big way.
>
> > I think my next blog post will be something along the lines of
>
> > "Post mortem of an OSS project" :-)
>
> > Cheers
>
> > Paul Cowan
>
> > Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)
>
> >http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/
>
> > On 21 June 2010 10:34, Steve Strong <srstr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Thanks for all your efforts on this Paul, it's a shame that not more
> >> people have got behind it.
>
> >> Of course, the code is still available and (as of now, at least) the
> >> website is still live.  Is anyone out there going to pick this up?  If not,
> >> then we'll probably decommission the website; not much point keeping it if
> >> the descriptors gradually rot.
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Steve
>
> >> On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Jeffry Morris <jeffrymor...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> Paul (and anybody involved) -
>
> >>> Thanks for the effort. Good luck on your future endeavors.
>
> >>> -Jeff
>
> >>> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Paul Cowan <dag...@scotalt.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> >> How about changing the license to BSD
>
> >>>> do you mean on the google code site?
>
> >>>> I will certainly do that.
>
> >>>> Anybody who wants to take over is very much encouraged to.
>
> >>>> Cheers
>
> >>>> Paul Cowan
>
> >>>> Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)
>
> >>>>http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/
>
> >>>>>> <horn-dev...@googlegroups.com>horn-dev...@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> >>>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/horn-development?hl=en.
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Philip Laureano

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Jun 23, 2010, 7:27:17 AM6/23/10
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I don't think Horn will die altogether--after all, it's an open-source project, not a one man shop. What this means is that Paul doesn't want to maintain it anymore, and eventually there will be someone else who will come along who will pick up where he left off. The only way this project could truly die is if everyone decides to completely abandon development altogether...

Steve Strong

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Jul 5, 2010, 4:45:14 PM7/5/10
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The Hornget website is still alive, and I suspect we (iMeta) will be happy to keep it on providing that someone is taking care of it (primarily to keep the descriptors roughly up to date, although some love on the UI wouldn't go amiss!).  If, however, it just falls into disrepair then I suspect we'd pull the plug on that bit - not much point spending the money for the hosting if the builds are just in a constant state of failure.

Paul Cowan

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Jul 5, 2010, 5:35:05 PM7/5/10
to HORN Development
>> Paul doesn't want to maintain it any more, and eventually there will be someone else

It is not so much that I do not want to maintain it any more, more I
got totally lost with what was happening with the Castle guys.

It went from big build to multiple smaller builds that have now been
merged to into a lesser number of parts. It went from svn to git and I
have no idea how it ended up.

I am not criticising the guys for doing this, I back all their moves
as I am a big user of the castle stack, I just that I got lost in the
process.

What I would like to see is someone from Castle or someone who knows
Castle well helping out with the update of the descriptors.

If castle does not build then very little else builds. I never liked
the idea of a sponsor like IMeta having their name on a website full
of broken builds. I really do not think it is fair which is why I
made the call to pull the plug.

Can anyone on the list who knows the new lay of the land with Castle
step up to the plate and help with either the update of the
descriptors or some advice on how to update them?

Personally, my girlfriend and I have just had a new born baby which is
really taking me off side projects and OSS for the next while as I
want to support my girlfriend during this time, so I just do not have
the time to spare. It was very much a different story about a year
ago when most of the horn development was done.

Lastly, I would like to thank Steve and IMeta for their continued
support but without some much needed help from the community at large
then the show is over.

Nhibernate 3.0 is about to break and Windsor 2.5 is in beta so we will
all be updating our stack very soon, it would be nice if we could all
just pull them down from the horn website.

The ball is in your court, spread the word!!

On 5 July, 21:45, Steve Strong <srstr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Hornget website is still alive, and I suspect we (iMeta) will be happy
> to keep it on providing that someone is taking care of it (primarily to keep
> the descriptors roughly up to date, although some love on the UI wouldn't go
> amiss!).  If, however, it just falls into disrepair then I suspect we'd pull
> the plug on that bit - not much point spending the money for the hosting if
> the builds are just in a constant state of failure.
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Philip Laureano
> <philip.laure...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't think Horn will die altogether--after all, it's an open-source
> > project, not a one man shop. What this means is that Paul doesn't want to
> > maintain it anymore, and eventually there will be someone else who will come
> > along who will pick up where he left off. The only way this project could
> > truly die is if everyone decides to completely abandon development
> > altogether...
>
> >> > >>>>>> <horn-development%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<horn-development%252Bunsub scr...@googlegroups.com>
>
> >> > >>>>>> horn-developme...@googlegroups.com<horn-development%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> > >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/horn-development?hl=en>
> >> > >>>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/horn-development?hl=en.
>
> >> > >>>>>  --
> >> > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> > >>>>> Groups "HORN Development" group.
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> >> horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
> >> > >>>>> .
> >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > >>>>> horn-developme...@googlegroups.com<horn-development%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> > >>>>> For more
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Michael Maddox

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Jul 5, 2010, 6:01:18 PM7/5/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
I just submitted a pull request for updating Horn to support .NET 4.0.
Once that gets integrated, it's trivial to get Castle.Core building
again from Horn. I'm not sure if the iMeta website has enough .NET
4.0 bits installed to build .NET 4.0 projects.

I haven't looked at Windsor yet, but I will probably look into it
eventually if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

-Michael Maddox
http://www.capprime.com/software_development_weblog/

Steve Strong

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Jul 6, 2010, 4:56:22 AM7/6/10
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No idea if the server has the .Net 4 bits on it, but that's easy to fix :)

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David Lawton

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Jul 6, 2010, 4:58:32 AM7/6/10
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Hornget.net domain is up next month. 

Anyone wanting it contact me for ownership transfer

Sent from my iPhone

Paul Cowan

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Jul 6, 2010, 5:25:44 AM7/6/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
I will get put .NET 4.0 onto the box and I will take over the domain for hornget.

These are the easy bits.

Still waiting for somebody to come forward for the Castle updates....

I can help out with explaining the descriptors etc....

It would be nice and quicker if somebody from Castle or somebody who knows Castle can come forward......

Is there a good Samaritan amongst us?????????


Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Roelof Blom

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Jul 6, 2010, 6:11:06 AM7/6/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
Hi,

The descriptor for Castle.Core has been updated, please pull it from my repo

To be able to build Windsor's master horn needs to support MSBuild 4.0, which it currently does not.

Castle supports building for different versions of the CLR (3.5, 4.0, 4.0 Client Profile, Silverlight 3.0, and Silverlight 4.0), using MSBuild 4's multi-targeting feature.
This is controlled by setting an MSBuild property named 'BuildConfigKey', which is either NET40, NET40CP, NET35, SL3, or SL4.
Would be nice if horn supported multi-targeting in some way.

-- Roelof.

Paul Cowan

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Jul 6, 2010, 11:29:19 AM7/6/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
The descriptor update to Castle.Core is welcome.

Can I remove any of the descriptors for anything else listed here:

http://github.com/dagda1/hornget/tree/master/ioc/


Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Roelof Blom

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Jul 7, 2010, 4:25:13 AM7/7/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
I'm sorry but I don't understand, why do you want to remove descriptors?

-- Roelof.

Paul Cowan

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Jul 7, 2010, 4:32:45 AM7/7/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
Hi,

>> I'm sorry but I don't understand, why do you want to remove descriptors?

I just wondered whether any of them are no longer required as I thought there had been a merging of some of the castle sub projects.

As ever I could be wrong.


Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Roelof Blom

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Jul 7, 2010, 4:48:02 AM7/7/10
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There has been a merging of some projects (DynamicProxy and DictionaryAdapter into Core) but you cannot remove those descriptors because there are other projects depending on them. Especially DP 2.2 is a dependency for a *lot* of other projects (NHibernate, NInject, Rhino Mocks, Caliburn to name a few).

-- Roelof.

Paul Cowan

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Jul 7, 2010, 9:17:55 AM7/7/10
to horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
>> This is controlled by setting an MSBuild property named 'BuildConfigKey', 
>>  which is either NET40, NET40CP, NET35, SL3, or SL4. 
>> Would be nice if horn supported multi-targeting in some way. 

We have mode functionality in horn, for example:

    mode debug:
        switches:
            parameters "project.config=debug", "sign=true","common.testrunner.enabled=false", "common.silverlight=false"

I think we need to add a .NET 4.0 mode and then get this called from the windows service that builds the downloadable packages for the hornget website. I tried to install .NET 4.0 on the webserver last night but got a generic trust failure or some such error. I'll try again tonight.

Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



On 7 July 2010 09:25, Roelof Blom <roelo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mick Delaney

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Jul 8, 2010, 5:58:53 AM7/8/10
to HORN Development
it would be a shame for this to end... there's NOTHING out there that
solves the problem, even if people are planning on developing an
alternative.. its a such a useful and time saving tool, saved me
atleast a day last week...
what is the big issue with it? whats the main compaint that's
hindering take up?
have u guys gots stats on how many downloads from the hornget site?

one thing that might be useful would be to add a last successful build
link on the site. that means atleast there's always an available
working version there, even if the project fails to build etc.

On Jul 7, 9:48 am, Roelof Blom <roelof.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There has been a merging of some projects (DynamicProxy and
> DictionaryAdapter into Core) but you cannot remove those descriptors because
> there are other projects depending on them. Especially DP 2.2 is a
> dependency for a *lot* of other projects (NHibernate, NInject, Rhino Mocks,
> Caliburn to name a few).
>
> -- Roelof.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Paul Cowan <dag...@scotalt.net> wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> > >> I'm sorry but I don't understand, why do you want to remove descriptors?
>
> > I just wondered whether any of them are no longer required as I thought
> > there had been a merging of some of the castle sub projects.
>
> > As ever I could be wrong.
>
> > Cheers
>
> > Paul Cowan
>
> > Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)
>
> >http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/
>
> > On 7 July 2010 09:25, Roelof Blom <roelof.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm sorry but I don't understand, why do you want to remove descriptors?
>
> >> -- Roelof.
>
> >> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Paul Cowan <dag...@scotalt.net> wrote:
>
> >>> The descriptor update to Castle.Core is welcome.
>
> >>> Can I remove any of the descriptors for anything else listed here:
>
> >>>http://github.com/dagda1/hornget/tree/master/ioc/
> >>>  <http://github.com/dagda1/hornget/tree/master/ioc/>
>
> >>> Cheers
>
> >>> Paul Cowan
>
> >>> Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)
>
> >>>http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/
>
> >>> On 6 July 2010 11:11, Roelof Blom <roelof.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Hi,
>
> >>>> The descriptor for Castle.Core has been updated, please pull it from my
> >>>> repo <http://github.com/roelofb/hornget/commits/dev>
> >>>>>> On 6 Jul 2010, at 16:56, Steve Strong <srstr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> No idea if the server has the .Net 4 bits on it, but that's easy to
> >>>>>> fix :)
>
> >>>>>>> <horn-dev...@googlegroups.com>horn-dev...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>>>>>> <horn-development%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>>> horn-developme...@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/horn-development?hl=en>
> >>>>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/horn-development?hl=en.
>
> >>>>>>  --
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Sebastien Lambla

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Jul 8, 2010, 6:12:54 AM7/8/10
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Let me just repeat once again that the "alternatives" are actually solving a variation on the problem in a very different way. It's quite inaccurate to say that somehow there is competition between a uber build tool like horn and a package management system like what we're building.

S

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Paul Cowan

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Jul 8, 2010, 8:14:44 AM7/8/10
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>> that the "alternatives" are actually solving a variation on the problem in a very different way.

I am probably being really stupid, but I actually do not know how open wrap or brick is approaching this problem.

Is there any chance you could give a brief description of how openwrap works, especially in the context of resolving dependencies?

I am still a in the dark and I am very interested.


Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



Sebastien Lambla

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Jul 8, 2010, 12:48:01 PM7/8/10
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The similarity is that there is a dependency list between projects. The difference is that packages on which things depend are retrieved from package servers, and come in the form of compiled binaries. OpenWrap doesn’t compile *anything*, it just loads the right packages needed by other packages on local boxes.

 

Horn doesn’t retrieve packages, it retrieves source code to compile using a unified language to describe builds, which means it has to deal with a large amount of complexity and unreliability, and also meaning that everything gets recompiled everytime.

 

I’m not saying there aren’t areas in which the same problem exist, I’m saying that as openwrap doesn’t build anything, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that idea that somehow I’m out to get horn, whatever I may be thinking of the project itself, its management or it’s applicability to what I’m trying to build.

 

Seb

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