I went skiing on ~100 y.o. skis today.

[Phil]

The experiment with my grandfather's skis was a success. I really don't know how old the skis are. They have no name or trademark that is visible to me. The bindings are Thorleif Haug brand. Haug was a 3-gold-medal winner in the first (1924) winter Olympics so the bindings are from that time period. 

Suffice it to say the skis are close to 100 years old. They certainly meet the specs of skis from that period. Those were referred to as Telemark skis and represented the best all round type of ski. Good for cross-country, downhill, and jumping. A typical one had these dimensions:  

The main difference between my grandfather's ski and this one is the absence of a mortice where the binding toe plate would have been located. His bindings are screwed onto the ski. That probably makes the ski about as old as the binding, i.e. from the 20s.

All of the stars lined up to make my experience with these skis so enjoyable. I found a new area to explore. I had it all to myself, i.e. first tracks. The snow conditions made for extremely easy solo trail breaking: 3" of fresh dry powder on top of a rain crust that supported my weight without problems 99% of the time. The terrain was gently rolling. I had a wide open field to practice in. 

The bindings had to be modified for my use. The old leather straps they had were too fragile and lacked enough scope for my boots. I substituted some Rottefella Chili heel wires. I expect the leather straps, when new, would have provided a similar feel.

The summary of the skis is that they worked great in these conditions. They track well with a deep center groove and substantial length (>210 cm, but not 240 like the diagram.) The open field provided ample room for wide turns. Tight turns, especially on thin powder over icy crust and no metal edges were more difficult. I think in deeper powder the skis would perform even more admirably but still be hard to use for short radius turning. They are not light. I believe they are made of hickory which is a pretty dense wood. I have a picture of my grandfather cross jumping on these skis. I can' only imagine how difficult that must be. 

There deep powder performance awaits to be tested but with today's fascination with "early rise" and "rockered" skis for powder it's not hard to believe these would perform well since that was the ideal for the shape of the front of the ski in those days. From Caufeild's How to Ski, comes this admonition: "The turn up at the front of the ski should begin at about one-fifth of the distance from the tip to the heel end. It should be very gradual, for a sudden bend makes the ski run more slowly and far less smoothly. The under side of the tip need not be more than five inches above the ground." 

Hopefully I'll get a chance to find out sometime later this winter. If not, I'll go back to the same spot and find out how they like spring corn snow.

Some pictures: 

[David Herman]

Hello all williams college ski bowl today main trail was previously packed so no breakthru and loose snow over crusty skiable base. Very nice ski.  Woods and glades were no go or hero skiing.  

David H

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[Diana Todd]

Love this tale of using the old skis.  I've got a pair of about that vintage, but I am afraid of breaking them.  Your attitude (in previous post) that you might as well use and enjoy them is an eye opener for me.  Maybe I'll try to give mine a go.  Thanks for the photo of the skis back-to-back to show the shape of the curve at the tip.  I've never looked at mine that way and hadn't realized what the shape was.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 4:40 PM Phil <pklu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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[Phil]

I think I learned that the conditions can make a big difference in how well you'll like the experience. Pick the best ones possible. If the skis are important to keep uninjured it's probably best to leave them as collector's items. In my case they were my grandfather's skis and the chance to use them was more important than keeping them intact. I even attached a pair of snowshoes to my backpack just to save work on the way out if something (ski or binding) failed. 

I don't plan on using them very much but, after today, I plan on at least one day per winter when I'll take them out, if the conditions allow. The experience was so powerful for me, a real connection with my skiing forebears, that I have to repeat it.

[Ron Gonzalez]

That's awesome Phil. It sounds like you found snow conditions similar to what I experienced yesterday high up in the Catskills. I'll bet you had fun! It was great for making quick turns, easily, at least where we were.

I'm so curious to understand what skis that old feel like. I'll bet they're better than people think they are. Interesting that the tips almost qualify as 'rockered'. What's old is new again, eh?

Thanks for posting this. Really interesting for me. :)

[Phil]

On the subject of how rockered the old skis were, consider these two images. The left hand one is from an REI webpage on Ski Rocker Explained, the right image from E.C. Richardson's The Ski Runner circa 1904, which is the oldest of my grandfather's books.

Where do you think the 1904 rocker fits on the spectrum that REI shows exists right now among their ski selection?

[Ron Gonzalez]

Very interesting.

To me at least, the diagram from 1904 looks like it most closely resembles the 2nd one down in the REI chart. I guess that's 'significant' but not 'maximum' tip rocker.

This drawing of Fridtjof Nansen on his skis shows a full-on rockered ski, or at least that's what it looks like to me.

I can't tell if those skis look short like our skis today. I think it's pretty cool that the pioneers of modern skiing had already figured this stuff out.

Then there are those Altai people and their yak fur lined skis with huge tip rise...

- Ron Gonzalez 

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[Phil]

As far as the skiing "feel" of the old skis, I'd say they are made for the kind of skiing their advocates were always harping about being the "best style:" straight runs in moderately deep, soft snow on open slopes. I didn't have the perfect conditions because the powder was thin (3") and underneath it was pretty icy, but nearly perfect for the angle I was on. These skis track straight as an arrow. I felt very secure on them. It feels like you could do handstands on them they are so stable. 

I'd say the worst place to try them out would be on a groomed slope at any angle. The grooves need something soft to guide the ski and the lack of metal edges (in this case the very rounded and worn wooden edges) would be next to useless on a firm surface. These were fairly fast because of the conditions, on a very benign slope, but as the snow became deeper I'd want to switch to something steeper, but still open. 

They seem to do best when asked to make long arcing turns, in fact they are very responsive to the subtlest cues when the arc is so wide. Open snowfields of a moderate to fairly respectable steepness in the softest conditions, with nice gradual runouts, and few obstacles is where they would shine and give even a modern skier a really pleasant experience. We've got a couple of golf courses in town that have some qualities that are like this. If we get a good soft snow dump I'll be taking the skis out to test my theory.

[Phil]

Another reason why I think Zdarsky deserves a large amount of credit for steering skiing in the alpine direction was that he also changed the profile of the ski from the more rockered Norwegian style to one that is typical of what we have been conditioned to think as traditional.  I cropped out part of Richardson's illustration of "good bend" because paired with it was a "bad bend." The "bad bend," was Zdarsky's style. Note in this illustration (also from Richardson) the difference between the Telemark ski (2) and the Lilienfeld ski (Zdarsky's) (3). The New England Ski Museum in N. Conway has a Lilienfeld ski in it's collection. Well worth a look if you ever go. The one thing I noticed is that the bend is not like it's illustrated in the book. It's a much more gradual one. I put that down to the age of the ski. Richardson harped on the poor quality of the materials in the Lilienfeld ski and he might have been right about that.

[Phil Brown]

I’m enjoying reading about old-time skiing. Coincidentally, I received in mail yesterday a copy of “Skiing the East,” a WPA guidebook published in 1939. Some of you may be familiar with this book. It lists hundreds of ski trails in the Northeast. Evidently, people were doing a lot of down-mountain skiing in the days before lifts. I imagine most of the trails were long ago abandoned and overgrown, but I plan to poke around in my region to see if I can find any remnants. 

I’m attaching a description of trails near Berlin on the NY/MA border.

Phil Brown

Saranac Lake, NY

On Feb 21, 2021, at 11:24 AM, Phil <pklu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Another reason why I think Zdarsky deserves a large amount of credit for steering skiing in the alpine direction was that he also changed the profile of the ski from the more rockered Norwegian style to one that is typical of what we have been conditioned to think as traditional.  I cropped out part of Richardson's illustration of "good bend" because paired with it was a "bad bend." The "bad bend," was Zdarsky's style. Note in this illustration (also from Richardson) the difference between the Telemark ski (2) and the Lilienfeld ski (Zdarsky's) (3). The New England Ski Museum in N. Conway has a Lilienfeld ski in it's collection. Well worth a look if you ever go. The one thing I noticed is that the bend is not like it's illustrated in the book. It's a much more gradual one. I put that down to the age of the ski. Richardson harped on the poor quality of the materials in the Lilienfeld ski and he might have been right about that.<Richardson skis and their profiles.png>

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