Cawley walkout planned

[Ray Miclette]

Fellow Hooksett Residents,

 

I learned today, and I am unsure how many parents know that the Superintendent of Schools and the Principal of Cawley have approved a student ‘walkout’ scheduled for this Wednesday. It is my understanding this planned demonstration is to protest Gun Violence in Schools and is to take 17 minutes, not including transition time, where students will walkout of class and exit the school building to demonstrate.

 

I was told that the administration would not tell any child that they have to participate or prohibit them from doing so. Students will be allowed to do so of their own accord, and without any administration intervention or repercussions. Furthermore, apparently some teachers may accompany their students outside. I was told how many was unknown as of today. Any students left in the classroom would have supervision but no learning would take place if the teacher were out of the room. The administration indicated that there would be supervision and accountability for any student leaving the building and that school resource officer would be in attendance also.

 

I can’t comprehend how the administration came to this decision, and further, felt no compelling need to alert parents to any of this. Clearly they knew of it in advance of today as they had met with the Superintendent and developed a course of action. I was told by the Cawley Principal should this demonstration occur that he would send home a letter afterwards explaining what occurred and how it was handled.

 

My first reaction is how did the administration and leadership of our schools feel it was reasonable to allow 11, 12 and 13 year old children to determine when they could leave class and for what reason. When did promises by students to ignore established rules result in the administration surrendering their responsibility to maintain their authority?  Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

 

The reason for this demonstration is wholly irrelevant. Regardless of how one may feel about the ‘cause’ the reality is this sets a terrible precedent. What will the administration say the next time there is a planned demonstration for another cause. Who will determine which causes are worthy and which are not? When the administration accepts one cause and rejects another will it be seen as politically or socially motivated? This presents a very slippery slope that the School Board and administration should avoid.

 

Allowing this type of disruption to the learning process is unfair to those students who are there to be instructed and do not want to be pressured to participate or kept from learning.  What have we come to when administrators feel they cannot tell 11-12-13 year old children NO they cannot disrupt the school day or the learning process, and if they do there will be consequences? 

 

If these children feel strongly about making a statement, there is plenty of time after school and on weekends when they can make their opinions known to those that can effect some outcome. If they feel the need to leave school during the day to demonstrate, then let their parents come and sign them out and take them to demonstrate. If it’s important enough to disrupt and leave school then it should be important enough for parents to leave work.

 

As a whole, students shouldn’t be subjected to demonstrations during the school day and I believe we have a right to expect that their learning not be impeded as a result.

 

Respectfully,
Ray Miclette

 

 

[Ginger Kozlowski]

I support the walkout and the administration for allowing it. This is a teaching moment, a valuable exercise in civic involvement. 

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[Ray Miclette]

As I stated Ginger, this is about the cause.  What constitutes a teaching moment? Can they plan a walk out for every cause? Which causes are acceptable? Can they walk out in support of President Trump?  How about gun rights? What about Pro-Life or March for Life? 

As I stated clearly there is plenty of time for civic involvement that does not disrupt my sons learning time. Or do his rights not matter? If they want to do a teaching moment for civic involvement plan it on a weekend or after school. 

---

From: Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>
To: Ray Miclette <micle...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>; "pde...@sau15.net" <pde...@sau15.net>; "agian...@sau15.net" <agian...@sau15.net>; "llali...@sau15.net" <llali...@sau15.net>; "gmar...@sau15.net" <gmar...@sau15.net>; "ksa...@sau15.net" <ksa...@sau15.net>; "jsul...@sau15.net" <jsul...@sau15.net>; "awha...@sau15.net" <awha...@sau15.net>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

[donnalapointe]

I agree with you 100%. My children are adults. I would be appalled as a parent to be informed of this after the fact. The administration is wrong by allowing this on school time.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

[Gail McCarthy]

The students have fire drills and mass shooting drills on a regular basis. For all of the “learning time” that’s blown on standardized testing, I don’t mind the students spending 17 minutes together reflecting on this crisis and the latest massacre of a group of their peers. These poor kids are being slaughtered and our government is permitting it to happen. Per Time Magazine, "According to EveryTown, there have been 17 school shootings in 2018 alone, and 290 since 2013, shortly after Sandy Hook.”  The gun situation in this country is horrifying and the kids need a way to cope with it. It’s OK with me, in fact, I encourage it.

[Ginger Kozlowski]

I do see a difference between students protesting about their safety issues vs. other topics. I am so impressed with the kids from Parkland. I hope they finally break the logjam and get some change. 

What better lesson for kids to learn than that they CAN make a difference when they are passionate and involved!

I find the "slippery slope" argument irritating. Once they start walking out over every little thing you can address that. For now, it's just this one incident.

Ginger Kozlowski

--

[Ray Miclette]

I really do not want to get into a debate about this 'cause'. It is inappropriate for my sons learning to be disrupted by a political demonstration by children that are not old enough to understand the complex issues surrounding these types of events.

You conveniently didn't address who decides what is permissible to demonstrate. Is it only your liberal ideaology that would be allowed or encouraged? Would you and the school board be OK with a Pro-Life walkout demonstration during school time to address the one million babies slaughtered in the US by abortion?  The abortion industry kills millions of children every year and that is horrifying. 

I choose to not let emotions or politics cloud my judgement on this issue of using schools for political demonstrations. The issue is Elementary and Junior High Schools are no place for demonstrations, they are for learning.

If this issue is so important to you Gail, sign your kid out of school and go teach them how to demonstrate. Disrupting my son's education is an infringement regardless of the liberal reason you think justifies it.

---

From: Gail McCarthy <gemcc...@comcast.net>
To: donnalapointe <donnal...@gmail.com>
Cc: Gail McCarthy <gemcc...@comcast.net>; Ray Miclette <micle...@yahoo.com>; Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>; Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>; "pde...@sau15.net" <pde...@sau15.net>; "agian...@sau15.net" <agian...@sau15.net>; "llali...@sau15.net" <llali...@sau15.net>; "gmar...@sau15.net" <gmar...@sau15.net>; "ksa...@sau15.net" <ksa...@sau15.net>; "jsul...@sau15.net" <jsul...@sau15.net>; "awha...@sau15.net" <awha...@sau15.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

The students have fire drills and mass shooting drills on a regular basis. For all of the “learning time” that’s blown on standardized testing, I don’t mind the students spending 17 minutes together reflecting on this crisis and the latest massacre of a group of their peers. These poor kids are being slaughtered and our government is permitting it to happen. Per Time Magazine, "According to EveryTown, there have been 17 school shootings in 2018 alone, and 290 since 2013, shortly after Sandy Hook.”  The gun situation in this country is horrifying and the kids need a way to cope with it. It’s OK with me, in fact, I encourage it.

Gail McCarthy

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[Ray Miclette]

Could you clarify on the existing safety issues at Cawley that they will be demonstrating for? I would like to know what is not being done by the Town, School Board or administration that is putting Hooksett Middle School children at risk.

They are not demonstrating a safety issue here in Hooksett, this is about pushing an Anit-Gun agenda instead of addressing the real issues causing these types of events. Issues such as mental health, law enforcement, enforcement of existing gun laws, failures by social agencies, Law Enforcement and schools themselves to address threats and people who make threats, refusing to take action for fear of litigation. Throw in social media, bullying, outcasting and the toxic political environment. These are the things that need to be addresses in order to prevent these types of tragedies. But no one wants to talk about that, it's too hard. Anti-Gun is the silver bullet. Not!

---

From: Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>

To: Gail McCarthy <mccart...@gmail.com>
Cc: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Re: Cawley walkout planned

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[Ginger Kozlowski]

Ray, you write as if Hooksett is immune to the threat of school shooters. You never know when the next school will be targeted. 

I totally get why kids feel scared and want change. Do they have the maturity to understand all the issues? Some probably do, some probably don't. But giving them a chance to take action, even if it doesn't result in change, gives them a chance to see in real life how you try to make that change. 

This isn't about all the other issues you raise. You are making it too complicated. 

I'm baffled that you say it's "too hard to talk about" all those other issues. They are talked about endlessly, unceasingly! And nothing ever changes, other than for each side to become hardened in their polarization. 

We need more civics education. 

And maybe the sad lesson these kids will learn is that adults are more interested in getting kids to obey unquestioningly and in selling more guns. 

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Ray Miclette <micle...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Could you clarify on the existing safety issues at Cawley that they will be demonstrating for? I would like to know what is not being done by the Town, School Board or administration that is putting Hooksett Middle School children at risk.

They are not demonstrating a safety issue here in Hooksett, this is about pushing an Anit-Gun agenda instead of addressing the real issues causing these types of events. Issues such as mental health, law enforcement, enforcement of existing gun laws, failures by social agencies, Law Enforcement and schools themselves to address threats and people who make threats, refusing to take action for fear of litigation. Throw in social media, bullying, outcasting and the toxic political environment. These are the things that need to be addresses in order to prevent these types of tragedies. But no one wants to talk about that, it's too hard. Anti-Gun is the silver bullet. Not!

---

From: Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>
To: Gail McCarthy <mccart...@gmail.com>

Cc: Hooksett Issues <hooksett-issues@googlegroups.com>

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[Gail McCarthy]

As Ginger noted, this is not some random topic; this is an issue that affects their safety and it needs to be addressed. Kids are getting slaughtered. They need to have a way to heal from the recent massacre and to have a way to process their anxiety. Taking 17 minutes to protest their lack of safety at school and frustration that nothing has been done to keep them safe has merit. 

You don't let your emotions or politics cloud your judgement? That was a joke, right? My liberal ideology includes keeping people safe - all people, not just students. Only a backwards "conservative" would have an issue with that. This is not a platform for you to blow a gasket over abortion, but it's consistent that you would spout out a bunch of nonsense while ignoring the massacre of children in our country.

Ray, as far as how to raise my children, I do not take orders from buffoons. You, I see have the same intelligence and charm as ever. You are what is wrong with this country.

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[Ray Miclette]

Gail,

I am not sure why you felt it necessary to call me names and attack me personally, implying I have low intelligence and no charm. All because  I expressed my opinion which clearly you did not like. While I find your response intolerant and hateful, you're certainly entitled to your opinion as am I.

I am perplexed as to why you are harboring such hate and malice toward me Gail, perhaps in your mind you feel I have wronged you in some way? I would be very interested in understanding what I might have done to elicit such a angry and vicious attack, so that perhaps I can make some amends to ease your hostility.

As for your response below, I will pass on further discussion with you. I feel it would be pointless.

Have a nice night. 

Ray

---

From: Gail McCarthy <mccart...@gmail.com>
To: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 6:33 PM

Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

As Ginger noted, this is not some random topic; this is an issue that affects their safety and it needs to be addressed. Kids are getting slaughtered. They need to have a way to heal from the recent massacre and to have a way to process their anxiety. Taking 17 minutes to protest their lack of safety at school and frustration that nothing has been done to keep them safe has merit. 

You don't let your emotions or politics cloud your judgement? That was a joke, right? My liberal ideology includes keeping people safe - all people, not just students. Only a backwards "conservative" would have an issue with that. This is not a platform for you to blow a gasket over abortion, but it's consistent that you would spout out a bunch of nonsense while ignoring the massacre of children in our country.

Ray, as far as how to raise my children, I do not take orders from buffoons. You, I see have the same intelligence and charm as ever. You are what is wrong with this country.

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 6:15:52 PM UTC-4, Ray Miclette wrote:

I really do not want to get into a debate about this 'cause'. It is inappropriate for my sons learning to be disrupted by a political demonstration by children that are not old enough to understand the complex issues surrounding these types of events. 

You conveniently didn't address who decides what is permissible to demonstrate. Is it only your liberal ideaology that would be allowed or encouraged? Would you and the school board be OK with a Pro-Life walkout demonstration during school time to address the one million babies slaughtered in the US by abortion?  The abortion industry kills millions of children every year and that is horrifying. 

I choose to not let emotions or politics cloud my judgement on this issue of using schools for political demonstrations. The issue is Elementary and Junior High Schools are no place for demonstrations, they are for learning.

If this issue is so important to you Gail, sign your kid out of school and go teach them how to demonstrate. Disrupting my son's education is an infringement regardless of the liberal reason you think justifies it.

---

From: Gail McCarthy <gemcc...@comcast.net>
To: donnalapointe <donnal...@gmail.com>

Cc: Gail McCarthy <gemcc...@comcast.net>; Ray Miclette <micle...@yahoo.com>; Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>; Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups. com>; "pde...@sau15.net" <pde...@sau15.net>; "agian...@sau15.net" <agian...@sau15.net>; "llali...@sau15.net" <llali...@sau15.net>; "gmar...@sau15.net" <gmar...@sau15.net>; "ksa...@sau15.net" <ksa...@sau15.net>; "jsul...@sau15.net" <jsul...@sau15.net>; "awha...@sau15.net" <awha...@sau15.net>

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

The students have fire drills and mass shooting drills on a regular basis. For all of the “learning time” that’s blown on standardized testing, I don’t mind the students spending 17 minutes together reflecting on this crisis and the latest massacre of a group of their peers. These poor kids are being slaughtered and our government is permitting it to happen. Per Time Magazine, "According to EveryTown, there have been 17 school shootings in 2018 alone, and 290 since 2013, shortly after Sandy Hook.”  The gun situation in this country is horrifying and the kids need a way to cope with it. It’s OK with me, in fact, I encourage it.

Gail McCarthy

On Mar 13, 2018, at 4:36 PM, donnalapointe <donnal...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with you 100%. My children are adults. I would be appalled as a parent to be informed of this after the fact. The administration is wrong by allowing this on school time.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: 'Ray Miclette' via Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups. com>

Date: 3/13/18 12:02 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>

Cc: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups. com>, pde...@sau15.net, agian...@sau15.net, llali...@sau15.net, gmar...@sau15.net, ksa...@sau15.net, jsul...@sau15.net, awha...@sau15.net

Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

As I stated Ginger, this is about the cause.  What constitutes a teaching moment? Can they plan a walk out for every cause? Which causes are acceptable? Can they walk out in support of President Trump?  How about gun rights? What about Pro-Life or March for Life? 

As I stated clearly there is plenty of time for civic involvement that does not disrupt my sons learning time. Or do his rights not matter? If they want to do a teaching moment for civic involvement plan it on a weekend or after school. 

---

From: Ginger Kozlowski <aplj...@gmail.com>
To: Ray Miclette <micle...@yahoo.com>

Cc: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups. com>; "pde...@sau15.net" <pde...@sau15.net>; "agian...@sau15.net" <agian...@sau15.net>; "llali...@sau15.net" <llali...@sau15.net>; "gmar...@sau15.net" <gmar...@sau15.net>; "ksa...@sau15.net" <ksa...@sau15.net>; "jsul...@sau15.net" <jsul...@sau15.net>; "awha...@sau15.net" <awha...@sau15.net>

Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

I support the walkout and the administration for allowing it. This is a teaching moment, a valuable exercise in civic involvement. 

[Ray Miclette]

Donna,

Thank you for the perspective. After the response I just got, it is refreshing when we can have civil discussion without being called names. :-)

How I found out was from the principal Mr Benson. My son came home yesterday and told me about the event. He mentioned that his teacher might not be in the classroom and this prompted me to contact Mr. Benson, to get some understanding what was going to happen. As you pointed out this is a event that has gained traction nationally and I can only guess that most schools were aware. As a parent I do find it disconcerting that we were not notified in advance. With all of the electronic modes of communication, it is clearly something that could have been sent out, at the least immediately after a decision was made by the Administration on how they were handling. I think we are in agreement that as parents we have a right to know.

You made some thoughtful points and many which I agree with. I do support civil participation and it is refreshing to see kids involved. I liked hearing that your school found way to make this part of a meaningful learning effort and as you said, not just an excuse for kids to skip class and look at their phones. 

The topic is important and I think we all agree that we need to make sure our children are safe both in school and outside of school. The topic was not the issue for me. I wouldn't support a pro-life demonstration during school hours either. I think it's great that kids want to get involved and I think it can be done as part of school but not disruptively during classroom time.

My personal feeling is that during school present the possible disruption for those who may choose to not participate, regardless of the cause or issue. I think it does open the door to using these types of demonstrations to further certain causes, and as I said, it concerns me as to who decides which topic is permissible. And that is not to say this one is not worthy or to diminish it in any way. I just don't feel that because this particular event happens to be a very important and sensitive issue, that it does not negate the discussion of whether these demonstrations should be permissible during school hours and what parameters or guidelines should be in place regarding them.

I am hopeful that all political parties can come to agreement on methods to make our schools and our children safer. Hopefully we can come to some common ground and help prevent tragedies like this. But I think you are right, the debate on how that happens may last for a long time.

Thanks again, for the polite social discourse.

Have a good night.
Ray

---

From: Donna Morin <donna...@comcast.net>
To: 'Ray Miclette' <micle...@yahoo.com>; 'Gail McCarthy' <gemcc...@comcast.net>; 'donnalapointe' <donnal...@gmail.com>
Cc: 'Ginger Kozlowski' <aplj...@gmail.com>; pde...@sau15.net; agian...@sau15.net; llali...@sau15.net; gmar...@sau15.net; ksa...@sau15.net; jsul...@sau15.net; awha...@sau15.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

Ray – where did you hear that Cawley will be participating?  Leah didn’t know anything about it – she is pulled out for ALPS and is helping with some aspects of the 8^th grade musical so may have missed something but she didn’t know anything about and organized event.  I would think that if the faculty was organizing this with the kids then the students would all know about it at least.   So, if kids weren’t told, and parents weren’t notified, then how do you know about this plan? 

 

Regardless, let’s assume that Cawley is participating and go from there.  The walkout is not only a national event but schools in other countries are supporting this too.  So you don’t have to be concerned with a slippery slope.  But I’m sure if the nation’s youth felt strongly to choose a time they wanted to support President Trump’s initiatives then I suppose schools would honor that as well.  Beyond having this be about safety – it’s about the will of the youth to change the world – which is much more powerful message and a true example of authentic learning.  Adults complain that the youth of America is apathetic.  Well now a group of students inspired others to get involved.  Whether or not you applaud what they want to do – I would hope that you encourage civic participation. 

 

Our school (the one I teach at) is recognizing this as well – and to us – it was important that the faculty took charge of the event.  We didn’t want students to just walk out and take advantage of the situation (as in – oh 17 min I can just play on my phone) We wanted to make sure that kids who walk out are respectful of the purpose (which really is to honor those who died and to support school safety).  A dynamic discussion in my class broke out about school safety and the pros and cons of different initiatives and how important it was to say something if you see something.  Did we get off topic from principles of our constitution for 20 minutes while we discussed it – yes we did.  However, students still had to justify their opinions, listen to others and respect those opinions even if they disagreed.   Basically, they practiced civil discourse and justifying an argument which are life skills.  This was all sparked by the 17 min walkout discussion.  Students also were able to form opinions and feel safe to walk out in support or not.  Knowing that you can disagree with a majority opinion without repercussions is another life skill we want out children to learn.  In our school we absolutely are having teachers accompany students outside for safety concerns and to ensure the respect for the situation.  In addition, by organizing this with the students we were able to have some control by asking them how they want to honor those from Parkland.   Students took up the call by coming up with ideas and spearheading a reading of victims’ names and short bios during the 17 min moment of silence.  Those in class will be completing a class assignment.  When the schools help organize this event they can turn a “free for all walkout” into something that does have educational value.  It’s not that complicated really.  And, this is an incredible teaching moment for educators and parents about the power of free speech and assembly and all of the things that make our country great.   

 

If in fact, Cawley is organizing an event with the kids than I am surprised that parents weren’t notified.  I agree with you that it would have been nice to know – simply so parents could make this a teachable moment for their middle schoolers. 

 

Thankfully it seems like the liberals and the conservatives are getting closer to the same page.  Gun control is such a complicated issue but even our President has tweeted and spoke about how he would like to ban bump stocks, increase the waiting period, and even raise the age to purchase certain weapons.   School safety, at least, seems to be an issue that people on both sides can rally around – right? However HOW we make schools safe will probably be up for eternal debate. 

 

Enjoy your night

 

Donna

[Claus Wolthers]

This is a great conversation and I'm really pleased that everyone is being cordial, so much better than the usual name calling that develops in other forums.

My understanding in speaking to Mr Benson is that Cawley is not participating or approving anything (they can't, won't and shouldn't),, instead the administration is allowing students to exercise their 1st amendment rights which is supported by a previous Supreme Court ruling that confirms students don't shed their rights at the front door of the school. (Tinker v Des Moines)

The kids that are interested in participating in the walk out will do so in a calm and non-disruptive way and peacefully assemble outside in a pre-designated area, the school is providing supervision to ensure that nothing happens to the kids outside of the school, upon completion of the 17 minutes of silence they will return to the classroom and move forward.

While we may or may not agree with their actions, this is in my humble opinion a 100% teachable moment and I support both the participants and non-participants in exercising their rights in choosing to express or not express their views, 

Thanks for listening

Claus

[Gail McCarthy]

Classic Bully: You can dish it out, but you can't take it. All of the answers to your disingenuous questions can be found in your email to me, which I could categorize in the same way. Next time, just stay on topic and don't make it personal.

[Debbie Ithier]

Well-stated Claus. 

~Debbie Ithier

--

[Todd Lizotte]

This is not a teaching moment.  For middle school kids, talking about it in class is a teaching moment.  And talking about it from many perspectives.

As for the threat in Hooksett; luckily the administration created double pass entrances and they have also addressed the issue of at-risk students with a variety of programs and inclusion methods to encourage kids to support each other, not isolate them.  

Our school board and administration has been proactive on talking about security and developing links with local law enforcement.

What happened down in Florida was a complete failure to acknowledge an at-risk youth and a serious problem.  The information coming out about students reporting criminal threats to the administration and a general failure overall to address it from a local law enforcement perspective gave a unique perspective on what can happen when systems fail. 

Todd

[marcmi...@gmail.com]

Hi Everyone,

I have also enjoyed this current discussion -- we haven't had this kind of debate for some time... Dave Pearl would be very happy and proud!

But even though Dave Pearl is no longer the administrator of this Hooksett Issues forum, his established rules still stand as the overall guiding principles, as he created them before his tragic passing.

As still the current default administrator of this forum, I myself am very certain that Dave would have responded to this discussion.  I personally still miss him every day...

Dave would have once again reminded all members that there are 3 simple rules that govern these postings.    

     He would want me to repeat them here and now, as a friendly reminder... Feel free to discuss anything, so long as it follows the rules listed below >>

1)  The topic of any posting must relate with Hooksett only.

2)  The discussion must be respectful to all members, focused on the actual issues being discussed, and not devolving into a nasty back and forth going off on unrelated tangents.

3)  No name calling is allowed ... or else the comments are subject to an initial warning by forum administrators (Todd Lizotte and myself), and possibly being permanently banned from the forum should the name calling continue.  

   Please continue with this valuable discussion and important topic... just leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the debate.

I have often used a quote -- "If you are supported by the facts, you pound the facts... if you don't have the facts to support your position, you pound the table!"

If you understand that point, then either step up to the table and engage professionally, or step away from the table. 

Dave always felt that Hooksett Issues was like people talking in a bar or a town meeting...

So say something to each other in this same type of forum, that you would also have the nerve to say to someone in person -- while standing or sitting in front of them too...

 

My only personal viewpoint on this school demonstration, is I agree that the parents should have been alerted to the event in advance -- sent a newsletter home with students to parents.

Secondly, if these demonstrations were merely a questionably valuable learning moment, so their efforts actually effect results in something worthy of the time spent on it?

My only questions are >> what happens after the 17 minutes?  

In the 18th minute and beyond, life returns back again to normal?  If so, the students never get those 17 minutes back. 

Do the teachers not discuss it afterwards, as I have heard?  Are the students left to figure it out themselves, if so, how's that working for each of them?

Do the students truly understand why they are outside, or is it just a additional recess to them?  Maybe some do understand, and some will not... can't generalize the results.

Also, the School Board and Administration has addressed the security matters by budgeting security measures for all town schools - cameras, locks, monitoring, etc.

Thanks for continuing this forum -- I don't post as much anymore, and the posts have diminished considerably since Dave's passing...

But please know that this forum is still valuable and I hope that it continues to thrive... as Dave's legacy. 

I read and monitor the forum, and try to allow the open discussion as he would have wanted...

Just follow the rules... don't make it personal -- it should never be personal.

Thanks everyone!  Regards, Marc MIville

[Todd Lizotte]

Claus I am glad you posted what Mr. Benson said.

If you noticed that was the wearing of an armband in school to protest the Vietnam war.

It was a silent protest within the school, which if all the kids wore black shirts in school, ok, but a walkout, that means they have the right to walk out in personal protest of a teacher without consequence?

I think this is Pandora's box to allow the kids to walk out the door.  The court ruling is about an in-school protest.

Imagine if Cawley students decide to protest being forced to eat lunch inside when the weather is warm.

I think it would have been more productive to have a forum and discussion, instead of a walkout.

Best regards,
Todd

[Gail McCarthy]

Teaching moment or not, this was an important, nationwide event to mourn the loss of the latest victims and to bring attention to the rampant gun violence in this country. Period. It is about nothing else. It is focused and meaningful. Schools are fed up with regular massacres that are happening across the country. Guns are the problem and the students are shining a spotlight on it. This is not Pandora's Box. This is a crisis that needs to be addressed.

[Ray Miclette]

Gail,

I feel the need to respond because you continue to attack me personally calling me more names. Can you please point to anywhere where I have called you names? Or said you have low intelligence or lack charm or are a bafoon, as you did to me? Can you point out anywhere where I have bullied you or anyone in this discussion? Can you point out where I have 'dished it out' or strayed from topic when sharing my position on this subject? Can you point to anything that was directly or personally attacking you?  My statement and questions were all respectful and on topic and within the rules of this open and civil forum.

Just because you disagree with my position on this subject doesn't justify your name calling and personal attacks and calling me a bully to try and seem like you are somehow a victim. It's actually quite ironic that your name calling and rude personal attacks are the essence of bullying.

I am sorry you feel so much hatred and anger towards me personally. Clearly you feel in your mind that I have wronged you somehow and this has outraged you. I feel sorry you harbor so much animosity, it must be a terrible feeling to have such hate in your heart. I hope someday you can find peace with it.

I won't comment on your responses any further as a consideration to others in this forum. 

---

From: Gail McCarthy <mccart...@gmail.com>
To: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:09 AM

Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Cawley walkout planned

[Chris Pearson]

I agree with Marc that it is nice to see an open discussion on this site.  I think Mr. Miclette started a thought provoking post and one I wouldn't categorize as lacking intelligence or buffoonery.   

I believe the discussion, and I may be wrong, was meant to ask what constitutes an allowable disruption during public school hours.  And what if any input should the school community, (Students, Parents, Faculty etc) should have before making that determination.  All of which are very valid points. 

I also think that school safety is a legitimate cause to shed a light on.  I think if you make this about gun control then you potentially divide your community from a common goal.  Plus, you only have to look to Europe and see the use of vehicles as weapons of mass murders; to understand that many objects are available to a willing sick mind. 

Finally, if the Hooksett School system really wants to address the issue of school safety then I applaud that cause.  If the first step was a walk out then I think some foresight into the what's next, some notification to parents, an adjustment to the days activities (ie around shortened lunch times), would have gone a long way.  Mass gun murders are a major and tragic issue in this country.  But if we focus on the gun we could potentially lose sight of the bigger goal.  Recognizing and stopping someone with a goal to harm our children before he or she acts on that mission.  That goal will never be solved easily or by political view points that coldly dismiss the other sides opinions.  But I do feel strongly that reasonable people with tangible and attainable ideas can begin the process.

[Gail McCarthy]

Ray, simply read the message that you sent to me and you will have your answer.

[Gail McCarthy]

Chris, Ray's bringing up this topic was good. I agree. I appreciate a thoughtful discussion, however, his reply to me was disrespectful and rude and the follow-ups were condescending and disingenuous. His attacks were completely unacceptable; I will not be lectured or maligned by any hostile person in this town, especially not Ray. If his post was directed at you, I doubt you would have the same reaction.

On a more positive note, I am optimistic that this discussion has surfaced. I went to a "Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense" meeting this week and was encouraged that they are making headway with legislation on a local and national level, improving the balance between rights and safety. If the discussions can stay focused on keeping the kids (and everyone) safe, and minimize the propaganda, they can be productive and move the efforts to keep our kids safe forward.

The Walk-out today was unprecedented. Kids aren't going to start protesting lunch or global trade; they are protesting the regular massacres that are taking place. This singular issue is bringing them together as a cohesive force. I believe they are an important part of the movement to bring sanity to our legislation. We are the only country that has this problem to this extent. We have plenty of models to look to that we can emulate that will leave us safer and reduce the number of tragedies that take place in this country.

[Ray Miclette]

Chris, 

Thanks for your articulate and well thought out post. Again it is nice to have civil discourse with reasonable people without name calling. Being able to present differing opinions without preconceived notions or assumptions about motives or intent is the mature and right way to have these types of discussions. 

I did bring up this issue to facilitate dialogue among residents and tried to keep it around the action and effects and not the reason for the walkout, but it took a turn to more of a discussion of 1st amendment rights and gun control. The three areas I tried to facilitate discussion around were parental notification, policy and disruption to the learning environment. All of which I think are legitimate topics for discussion. 

One thing that does bother me is that when anyone has opposing view of highly charged issues like this, they often get labeled incorrectly and ignorantly as anti-kid, don't care about people, or ignoring the massacre of children, etc. That is just such nonsense and it gets old. And I think it causes people to not want to dialogue and hinders working towards a common solution.

I agree with your premise that it is hard to stop those intent on evil and murder. And you are correct that those who choose to do these horrific acts can use guns, cars, knives, homemade explosives, etc. The weapon or method is merely the symptom, the disease is what is causing them to do these things. The real question we should be asking ourselves as a society is: what would make an 18 year old so enraged and angry that he would be willing to murder his schoolmates? I fear until we start trying to find the answer to that question and addressing it, we will just be treating the symptoms and these tragedies will continue. 

Thanks again for the insight.

---

From: Chris Pearson <groga...@gmail.com>
To: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 2:22 PM
Subject: {Hooksett Issues} Re: Cawley walkout planned

[Kathie Northrup]

Can someone fill us (with no children at Cawley) in on what happened at Cawley today?

 

From: 'Ray Miclette' via Hooksett Issues

[Gail McCarthy]

Ray, again with the petty stuff? So small. In order to have civil discourse with reasonable people, you have to be both civil and reasonable. You were not. Own your obnoxious post and move on.

[Ray Miclette]

Gail the only obnoxious person on this thread has been you. I tried to take the high road with your repeated childish personal attacks. But you're clearly a angry human being full of hate. I am not sure why your so fixated on me, but you might consider getting some help, you clearly have issues.

---

From: Gail McCarthy <mccart...@gmail.com>

To: Hooksett Issues <hookset...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: {Hooksett Issues} Re: Cawley walkout planned

[Claus Wolthers]

Children participated in a peaceful walkout protesting school shootings, 3/14 was chosen as it marks the 1 month anniversary of the Parkland, Florida shooting, students left their classroom for 17 minutes of silence.

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[Claus Wolthers]

Hey Todd,

 

Hope you are doing well, haven’t seen you around recently.

 

I agree that you raise a great point on where does one draw the line on what a reasonable protest  might be or look like and who should be able to participate, the Cawley administration could if they wanted to have chosen to impose consequences for anyone who participated in the walkout but they instead they chose to offer a middle ground solution that would allow people to either participate or not, I believe that this course of action was taken largely as the protest was non-disruptive in nature.

 

As for having a debate/forum, I think that is a great idea but from what I gathered in speaking to the administration they are/were very reluctant to go that route as it ends up as a case of “you are forcing views on my children that I don’t agree with”. The issue is further complicated by the sensitivity of the topic at hand, I know of several people who don’t want their children to know about these shootings at all, we have other kids come over to play with our kids and parents ask us not to put on the news because it understandably upsets their children to the extend that they are having to have counselling.  (I’m going to show my age here and say when I was 12 my only real worry in life was getting homework done, playing with friends and going fishing after school, never once did I have to consider that I might get shot in school.)

 

What really concerns me and probably most other people too regardless of ideology, is that society seems to get caught up in who is right/wrong based on their ideological views and nothing gets done about the senseless murders of innocent school age children.

 

From my vantage point, children haven’t been polarized yet and are choosing to let us know that enough is enough and protesting the status quo

 

Hope to see you around town soon, maybe we can grab a drink.

Claus

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 11:12:05 AM UTC-4, Todd Lizotte wrote:

[Gail McCarthy]

Ray, stop projecting your weirdness on me. I don't hate you. That's ridiculous. I object to your passive aggressive insults. Earlier in the day your were ranting about abortion and putting me down for having a "liberal ideology." That was obnoxious and offensive and had nothing to do with  the topic. It was just rude.

[marcmi...@gmail.com]

This is to Gail McCarthy >

I have a lot of respect for you personally, but please refrain from your disrespectful comments and name calling on this forum. 

In my opinion, (and I confirmed with Todd this morning) it is you who is going over the line on forum rules, with your personal attacks and insults, that are added to the debate..

The list below are your comments to Ray that I have copied/pasted for explanation > 

  Taken collectively as a whole, these comments detract from the cordial discussion, and add nothing to the debate.

  They are directed at one person, and are considered by us as personal.  We get it... that the passion of the topic can become heated, but the debate should remain on topic.

  

backwards "conservative"

Classic Bully

You can dish it out, but you can't take it

disingenuous

Ray, simply read the message that you sent to me and you will have your answer.

disrespectful and rude and the follow-ups were condescending and disingenuous.

petty stuff

So small. 

obnoxious

stop projecting your weirdness on me.  

passive aggressive insults.

Earlier in the day your were ranting 

That was obnoxious and offensive and had nothing to do with  the topic.

It was just rude.

I will not be lectured or maligned by any hostile person in this town, especially not Ray.

I have spoken with fellow forum administrator Todd, and we both agree that these types of comments violate the spirit, standards and integrity of this forum. 

This will be your final warning, per forum rules as we see it, You will be removed as a member without further notice, if similar disrespectful personal comments continue. 

I am not lecturing nor maligning you, nor am I being hostile.  We are making an objective observation, as is the forum administrators' duty, and protecting the integrity of the forum.

Thanks in advance for your consideration of compliance... 

Dave, Todd and I have regretfully banned 3 other members in the past... so it wouldn't be a precedent....

We would also regret having to make this decision as well... so please stay on topic.

 Hope you understand...

Thanks and regards, Marc Miville

[marcmi...@gmail.com]

  In all fairness, and showing nonpartisanship...

  It has been brought to our attention that there were some other comments made by Ray that were deemed by a member as questionably personal, and should be noted in kind.

  The following comment to Gail also raised some concern, and was therefore reviewed for a determination of rules violation.

  Ray wrote > 

     "it must be a terrible feeling to have such hate in your heart." 

     "you're clearly a angry human being full of hate."

     "you might consider getting some help, you clearly have issues."

     

  Todd and I agree that those above comments are also objectionable ... and we therefore advise that any such kind of comments should be not part of the discussion. 

  Again, please refrain for escalating the debate to personal comments that "go there" outside of the intended topic discussion.

 

  We have not had this kind of back and forth discussion for some time, and it's truly great to see, so we all need to remember again how to interact with each other on the forum.

   Say it here as if you were saying it to my face, or don't say it at all. 

   Don't hide behind your posts... hug it out, and press the restart button.  Play nice in the sandbox together... this is why we can't have nice things in our lives. 

   I have not mentioned to most of you that I am stepping down from my Town Councilor position, didn't run for re-election, and instead took the Town Moderator position?

   Yah, and one of the reasons why I did that, was in order to reduce my stress level in my life -- to avoid and step away from all of the never-ending town drama... y'all know it.

   So please, to save and improve my declining health... don't start with the drama herein too!!!  My heart and diabetes can't take it... ;-)

    Thanks to all for your patience... I hate doing this stuff.  I would hope that others are agreeing but just not saying it out loud. 

    Go to TV commercial >  "Woo, I'm beat.  Let's do it our way now...you hear that?"

    Regards, mm

[Mike Downer]

My son chose to participate in the walk out.  Some of his friends participated while others did not.  When he got home from school and told me, I asked him what he thought the walk out was for.  What was the goal?  I fully expected his answer to be along the lines of gun control, 2nd Amendment, NRA, etc.  His answer surprised me but maybe it shouldn't have.  He said he walked out to remember the 17 kids from Florida and to pray for those kids and their families.  He said he was sad that the kids were killed and he wanted to remember them and say a little prayer for each of them.  I found it interesting that it wasn't about guns for him.  It was about the kids and the people left behind.  I will agree that thoughts and prayers aren't enough for our elected officials but for a 12 year old boy, it seems just right to me.  I have tried to raise my kids to be thoughtful and kind.  To be inclusionary.  To be respectful.  To be good kids.  Maybe, just maybe if all kids were that way, these murdering sociopaths would not feel so isolated, so alone, and frankly so starved for attention and love, that they murder their peers.  I find it interesting we don't focus on the complete societal breakdown that led to these horrific crimes.

[Todd Lizotte]

Hello Claus,

I agree ... and a beer is always a good start to a discussion.

Cheers,
Todd

[Chris Pearson]

What would any of you say to the Ohio student who got suspended for choosing not to participate?.  Or the California teacher who was placed on leave for discussing the double standard on what is deemed an acceptable protest?

[Claus Wolthers]

Hi Chris

The Ohio student's issue is interesting to me, according to news reports the school provided two choices to the student population based on available staff.

1. You may participate in the walkout or
2. You may to choose to not participate but we require you to go to Study Hall

The student supposedly didn't feel comfortable with either option as he felt he would be seen to be either for or against the walkout based on his choice, I can see both sides and some will say he was entitled to stay in class and not have his learning interrupted, others will say that he was simply asked to go to an alternate supervised location and should have followed the school's directions. 

Like you I'm curious how others see it, 

[micle...@yahoo.com]

There was also a student at New Prague HS in Minnesota that was prevented from holding a sign that said 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. He was prevented from holding up his sign by the principal and threatened with arrest if he didn't stop or leave the school premise. This is an example of the one of the three points I brought up in my original post, which is; Who decides what is permissible to protest at school.  I think Todd also addressed the issue. If we collectively allow one cause to be protested, does it then open the door for anyone to protest any cause.And who will decide which causes are permissible?

These protests are disruptive to the learning process no matter how short or well organized, they are disruptive by design for maximum effect. Schools are for learning and there are alternative ways to allow students to be active and empowered and at the same time use these incidents as learning moments, without allowing them to march out of class. Many high schools did not allow the walkouts and still provided forums for kids to memorialize the students at Parkland, discuss the issues and express all viewpoints.

Getting back to here in Hooksett, some of the ways this could have addressed at Cawley include, 

- doing something before school started or after school or during lunch period

- holding it in the gym 

- a student forum to discuss the issues, allowing all viewpoints to be expressed

- taking a moment of silence for a period of time

Does anyone have other ideas? I am sure they are others.

The other point in the initial post was about parent notification. Wouldn't the teaching moment have been strengthened by notifying and engaging parents ahead of time? Wouldn't it be more effective for parents to have discussions with their children prior to this event as well as solicit from them ideas on how they can enhance the learning moment? If parents had been notified in advance they would have been able to sit and talk with their children about the issues and reasons for the planned demonstration; their concerns if they decided to participate or not to participate; any concerns they may have had about pressure to walkout or not walkout; proper ways to express themselves and how to respect others opinions; and expectations for behavior before, during and after the demonstration. 

As for the reason for the walkout, I do not believe there is a person in Hooksett, on either side of this issue, that isn't concerned about children's safety at school and that does not have empathy for the families of those 17 kids in Parkland or any child harmed at school or elsewhere, regardless of where they may fall on the issues of demonstrations in school.

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:40:12 PM UTC-4, Chris Pearson wrote:

[Todd Lizotte]

Hello Claus,

I think you answer your question with your original post.   The administration said they have to respect the student's 1st amendment rights, citing legal precedence from the Supreme Court.

If Mr. Benson's statement was correct; the indication was the school wasn't condoning it; just providing safety.  And by stating that; they were allowing kids not to participate without issue.

In terms of a school administrator stating that a student if not participating having to go somewhere else; well couldn't that be considered a protest?  I would argue the same protections apply.  And if the kid was suspended that would be a violation of their rights; it is not the student who disrupted the school day and it is the parents who are taxpayers who pay the bills, so by default the student is protected against punishment.  If a student can protest ... why can't a kid supervise themselves?  And if a student is told this is not a school-sanctioned event, why don't they have the right to stay in class?

I believe the right to say no; they were there to attend classes .... the administration was by law to provide continuity of service or cancel the school day.

A school system can not say:

- This is not a protest

- This is not condoned by the school

- Students who do not participate will be disrupted

Mr. Benson's citation, as you indicated in your post, cited that legal precedent; which states that students have the right to protest whatever they want, within the context of not disrupting school.  School can not indoctrinate.    

I personally think the bigger concern is censorship.

Here is a good reference on 1st Amendment in schools:  http://ncac.org/resource/first-amendment-in-schools

Here is one of the arguments by the court in  (Tinker vs. Des Moines):

"...In our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom -- this kind of openness -- that is[p509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint."

I think it is clear that; even in school today, students can protest - but not disrupt - but even disruption can't be an opinion, but actual fact.

Personally, I am glad Mr. Benson cited this reference because there have been numerous times when kids have been told, "You can't wear that shirt to school, its disruptive (I am not talking about foul language shirts)

It is an interesting discussion.

Cheers,

Todd

 

[marcmi...@gmail.com]

   Hi Mike, it's nice to hear from you. 

   I was moved by your story of your son's experience and very compelling perspective.  Thanks for sharing...

   Attached link was on my Facebook page today, that I want to also share, for this student's perspective. 

   It has collected over 18 million people who has watched the video!  

     https://www.facebook.com/IJRRed/videos/165008847532506/ 

   mm