Japanese SHINDO system vs Richter scale

[AlasdairM]

Hello,

I'm translating a doc about construction projects in Niigata to
prevent landslides in the event of an earthquake, and the doc mixes
the use of the Japanese SHINDO system of measuring earthquakes (e.g., 震
度６強) and the Richter scale in talking about the 2007 Chuetsu-Oki
Earthquake.

I was hoping that there was a direct equivalence between the two, but
it doesn't appear there is.

The audience is most likely to be engineer types, so I'm trying to
figure out the best way to deal with the use of the SHINDO
measurements. Perhaps just a direct translation with a note briefly
explaining that there is no direct equivalence to the Richter scale?

I'd be very grateful for your opinion on this.

Many thanks in advance!

Alasdair Morgan

[Alan Siegrist]

Alasdair Morgan writes:

> I'm translating a doc about construction projects in Niigata to
> prevent landslides in the event of an earthquake, and the doc mixes
> the use of the Japanese SHINDO system of measuring earthquakes (e.g.,

> 震度６強) and the Richter scale in talking about the 2007 Chuetsu-Oki

> Earthquake.
>
> I was hoping that there was a direct equivalence between the two, but
> it doesn't appear there is.
>
> The audience is most likely to be engineer types

Then get an engineer type to translate, or help translate.

> so I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to deal with the use of the SHINDO
> measurements. Perhaps just a direct translation with a note briefly
> explaining that there is no direct equivalence to the Richter scale?
>
> I'd be very grateful for your opinion on this.

Here is a nice description in English of the JMA seismic intensity scale in
units of shindo. This is again thanks to our friends at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Meteorological_Agency_seismic_intensity_s
cale

Perhaps this will help.

Regards,

Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA

[Marc Adler]

2009/4/13 Alan Siegrist <AlanFS...@comcast.net>

Then get an engineer type to translate, or help translate.

What a vacuous and insulting thing to say.

--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com

[AlasdairM]

Alan,

I came across this, but frankly, it doesn't answer my question.

Thanks anyway,

Alasdair

> units of shindo. This is again thanks to our friends at Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Meteorological_Agency_seismic_inte...

[Dwight Van Winkle]

Does Alan's Wikipedia link answer the question: "6-upper on the Japan
Meteorological Agency seismic intensity scale" or what seems better to
me, "Strong 6 on the Japan Meteorological Agency seismic intensity
scale"?

Examples:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/90513598/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.jma.go.jp/en/quake/quake_local_index.html

On Apr 13, 4:31 pm, Marc Adler <marc.ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/4/13 Alan Siegrist <AlanFSiegr...@comcast.net>

[Gururaj Rao]

Hi Alasdair,

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
AlasdairM <alasdai...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I'm translating a doc about construction projects in Niigata to
> prevent landslides in the event of an earthquake, and the doc mixes
> the use of the Japanese SHINDO system of measuring earthquakes (e.g., 震
> 度６強) and the Richter scale in talking about the 2007 Chuetsu-Oki
> Earthquake.
>
> I was hoping that there was a direct equivalence between the two, but
> it doesn't appear there is.
>
> The audience is most likely to be engineer types, so I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to deal with the use of the SHINDO
> measurements. Perhaps just a direct translation with a note briefly
> explaining that there is no direct equivalence to the Richter scale?

This entry in Jekai should give you all the information you need:
http://www.jekai.org/entries/aa/00/np/aa00np10.htm

Gururaj Rao

--
honya...@gmail.com
Website: http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/transtech/
Blog: Translator's Tools: http://honyakusha.blogspot.com/

[Dwight Van Winkle]

Alastair, there's no equivalence because Shindo, like Mercelli,
measures intensity at a given point on the Earth's surface, while
Richter measures magnitude, or energy released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_scale#Seismic_intensity_scales

[Alan Siegrist]

Marc Adler writes:

What a vacuous and insulting thing to say.

 

I seem to recall a very similar thing that you said about someone in regard to literary translation. Would you mind clarifying why what I said was “vacuous and insulting” where you obviously believed that what you said about Karen, I believe, was proper?

 

Please explain.

[Carl Freire]

At 4:11 PM -0700 4/13/09, AlasdairM wrote:
>measurements. Perhaps just a direct translation with a note briefly
>explaining that there is no direct equivalence to the Richter scale?

That'd be the best route to take in my book. Just make sure you've
indicated that what you are directly translating is the _Japanese_
seismic intensity scale so the translation's readers are aware that
there is a system that's been developed specifically here. Instead
of relying on Wikipedia (nothing wrong with that, but if you can go
straight to the source then why not just go? :-), here's the word
straight from the JMA horse's mouth on the differences between these
things:

<http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/en/Activities/brochure_earthquake_and_tsunami.pdf>

"Column: Magnitude and Seismic Intensity
"'Magnitude' is a numerical value which represents the scale of a
fault slip underground. When the seismic wave released from the fault
reaches the land surface, we feel a ground motion. 'Seismic
intensity' represents the scale of the ground motion at the land
surface.

"Magnitude (Richter Scale) : Magnitude is an indicator of the scale
of an earthquake and often represented as "M". M is calculated from
the maximum amplitude of the seismic wave recorded by seismometers.
One increase of M means that the energy of earthquake increases
thirtyfold.

"Seismic Intensity : Seismic Intensity is an indicator of the scale
of the ground motion caused by an earthquake and measured by seismic
intensity meters. The seismic intensity (JMA scale) is divided into
10 scales, namely, 7, 6 upper, 6 lower, 5 upper, 5 lower, 4, 3, 2, 1
and 0 in order from the strongest to the weakest. People feel a shake
in greater than scale 1, buildings are damaged in 5 upper and serious
damage is caused in 6 upper."

Summarizing the difference between the two is left as an exercise to
the translator :-D

Cheers,
Carl
--

**********

Carl Freire
cfreire /[@]* ix.netcom.com
Tokyo, Japan

[Marc Adler]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Alan Siegrist <AlanFS...@comcast.net> wrote:

I seem to recall a very similar thing that you said about someone in regard to literary translation. Would you mind clarifying why what I said was “vacuous and insulting” where you obviously believed that what you said about Karen, I believe, was proper?

1) Karen said it was "all nonsense" or something. Alasdair said no such thing. In fact, he showed a good handle on the material in his question.

2) I suggested that if Karen felt she wasn't up to it, she should tell the client. Your blunt statement was unqualified. I never assumed Karen couldn't do the translation, even after she said the content was nonsense to her. Alasdair showed a grasp of the material but asked a single, pretty good question, and you let 'er rip.

3) I actually answered Karen's questions. All you did was point Alasdair to a Wikipedia page which anyone could find, almost as though you were trying to demonstrate your own ignorance of the material.

3) As for the utter vacuity of your suggestion, by posting the question to the list, Alasdair *was* asking engineer types for help.

--
Marc Adler
www.adlerpacific.com

[Nate is fine.]

Dwight's hit the nail on the head. There's no direct comparison to
Richter.

But that doesn't help you.

Shindo is a measure of maximum horizontal acceleration, which is used
quite often in the states when calculating PML of buildings. If your
audience is engineers, then they should be pretty familiar with
maximum horizontal acceleration.

I have no idea how this will come out in your mail client, but I'm
going to copy and paste a table I put together in Word a couple months
back. The table lays out Shindo in both meters per second squared and
%g (percentage of acceleration due to gravity), the more common unit
in the states. I'd edit it nicely, but I'm on the clock right now:

Shindo Acceleration %g
0 Less than 0.008 m/s² Less than .08
1 0.008–0.025 m/s² .08-.26
2 0.025–0.08 m/s² .26-.82
3 0.08–0.25 m/s² .82-2.6
4 0.25–0.80 m/s² 2.6-8.2
Weak 5 0.80–1.40 m/s² 8.2-14.3
Strong 5 1.40–2.50 m/s² 14.3-25.5
Weak 6 2.50–3.15 m/s² 25.5-32.1
Strong 6 3.15–4.00 m/s² 32.1-40.8
7 Greater than 4 m/s² 40.8 and greater


HTH

Nate Moore

[Nate is fine.]

Gururaj Rao,

I believe the information at that link is outdated. The Shindo scale
was originally based on perceived shaking and damage, but was
converted to maximum horizontal acceleration several years back.

I'm so grateful a geology question finally came along. I had been
feeling so useless.

Nate

On Apr 14, 8:52 am, Gururaj Rao <honyaku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alasdair,
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
> AlasdairM <alasdair.mor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I'm translating a doc about construction projects in Niigata to
> > prevent landslides in the event of an earthquake, and the doc mixes
> > the use of the Japanese SHINDO system of measuring earthquakes (e.g., 震
> > 度６強) and the Richter scale in talking about the 2007 Chuetsu-Oki
> > Earthquake.
>
> > I was hoping that there was a direct equivalence between the two, but
> > it doesn't appear there is.
>
> > The audience is most likely to be engineer types, so I'm trying to
> > figure out the best way to deal with the use of the SHINDO
> > measurements. Perhaps just a direct translation with a note briefly
> > explaining that there is no direct equivalence to the Richter scale?
>
> This entry in Jekai should give you all the information you need:http://www.jekai.org/entries/aa/00/np/aa00np10.htm
>
> Gururaj Rao
>
> --

> honyaku...@gmail.com

[David J. Littleboy]

From: "Dwight Van Winkle" <dwig...@fastmail.fm>

>
> Alastair, there's no equivalence because Shindo, like Mercelli,
> measures intensity at a given point on the Earth's surface, while
> Richter measures magnitude, or energy released.

In case this gets lost in the noise:

That is the correct answer: They measure different things.

I'm repeating something that's probably in the archives here. After
translating the official Japanese government definitions of the levels on
the shindo scale for a client, and thinking they were as flaky as all get
out, I buttonholed an MIT geology professor at a party and got the following
response. The Richter scale doesn't tell you much of anything about the
effects of an earthquake at any particular point, and, even worse, it's
quite hard to quantify ground motion in a useful manner and the Japanese
scale is actually a pretty reasonable attempt at dealing with a technically
difficult problem. So when NHK puts up all those numbers, they give you a
good idea of how disturbed the people at those places really were.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[Richard Thieme]

Could you update that?

I believe the JE-Kai project is still operating, and Tom as well as the rest
of us would be happy to hear your suggestions.

Regards,

Richard Thieme

----- Original Message -----
送信者 : "Nate is fine." <not...@gmail.com>
宛先 : "Honyaku E<>J translation list" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
送信日時 : 2009年4月14日 9:56
件名 : Re: Japanese SHINDO system vs Richter scale

[Nate is fine.]

I double checked myself and I'm afraid I have to take that back.
Shindo has not been "updated". The numbers I provided are used as
guidelines, but the official Meteorological Agency definition of
Shindo is based on fallen plates and fissures in the earth, and it has
been since 1996.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Nate Moore

[Jim Lockhart]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
"Nate is fine." <not...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I double checked myself and I'm afraid I have to take that back.
> Shindo has not been "updated". The numbers I provided are used as
> guidelines, but the official Meteorological Agency definition of
> Shindo is based on fallen plates and fissures in the earth, and it has
> been since 1996.

Phew. I'm glad to read this, since I wrote (most of) the JEKai entry (ah,
the memories!).

> Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

In my estimation (as a translator who follows earthquake and
earthquake resistance-engineering topics), Carl Friere and David
Littleboy have provided the best replies.

Fwiw, I would avoid talk of the Richter scale. The international
standard for measuring the power released by an earthquake is
moment-magnitude (abbreviated Mw, IIRC).

Mw is pretty much useless to structural engineers, which is probably why
the OP's doc mentions shindo so often.

> Nate Moore

Ah-ha, fine Nate's real identity! <g>

--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo

[Dwight Van Winkle]

On Apr 13, 6:15 pm, "David J. Littleboy" <davi...@gol.com> wrote:

>So when NHK puts up all those numbers, they give you a
> good idea of how disturbed the people at those places really were.

And the numbers are given for small areas. I was in the north part
of Kobe that was a Shindo 5, under the former scale I guess. My
experience was much milder than people in the main part of Kobe, who
experienced up to Shindo 7. This was a function not just of distance
and probably more of the underlying ground conditions - people on flat
land, especially the liquifying landfill, were hit much worse than
people on the hillsides, even on the south side of Rokko. I don't
know if the Shindo were reported in that much detail, but I know the
relative damage on flat land versus hillside.

Knowing the magnitude at the epicenter on Awaji Island does not tell
you nearly as much, although knowing that it was very close to Kobe is
a big reason the Shindo was so high.

[Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven]

To add a preventive note here as one of the moderators:

1) Since this list is made up of various professional and enthusiast
translators, each with his or her specific field of specialization or
interest, there will most likely be someone who can provide some hint or
clue towards the problem you are facing.

2) We are all here to seek help or provide help with regard to translation.

3) Given how verbal sparring contests only clutter the information we seek,
we should try to maintain a civil and helpful discourse. It will be better
for everybody's blood pressure anyway. :)

And now back to our regular scheduled translating.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
No one can find me, here in my Soul...